City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

What the hell? Let's buff defenders.

Airhammer

By Airhammer,
Posted on: 2009-08-07 18:27 in Defenders

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Not "way better", but about 27% resistance compared to 20%. This is in proportion to their base modifier for (personal) resistance, 100% for Defenders, 75% for Corruptors.
I consider it to be way better when the fully slotted corruptor version is just a few percent away from the unslotted defender version.

 

Posted

Im sorry but some Dev really needs to talk openly about how to fix the Defender AT. Dominators giot a fix. Blasters got defiance fixed, Tanks have seen several adjusments in powersets to improve overall play, Khleds got a damage boost and range increases in some poiwers, as well as other AT's (and I have played them all)

I LOVE defenders. I love what they can do. I love how they add to a team Its just getting harder and harder for me to play one. My Cold/Ice is probably my favorite but its challenging at times to find a team for him. My Rad/Sonic does well but even with the -res the damage scale on his one AoE attack and the Nuke is pitiful. My Kin/Elec is just sad. This should be a better toon its just not. I dont know if thats cause Electric blows or not. I have an Elec/Elec blaster and he drains just as well if not BETTER than my defender does AND he does more damage (although Elec damage to me seems to leave a LOT to be desired).

Something needs to be done and it need to talked about by the devs.

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

*chin on hand* I think the argument kinda runs headlong into the predicament that nobody involved can prove there's anything wrong with defenders. You can provide comparisons until the cows come home, but none of it's actual concrete evidence that there's a bar the developers have set, and that defenders somehow fall beneath it.

I know that the dominator's problems primarily stemmed from the twofold problem that they were being pushed towards one, technically-exploitive IO plan, and that they were literally of no contribution compared to any alternative in team content. Defenders don't have that problem - while they may not solo as well, they are a diverse AT with a lot of different possible decision trees for character creation, and they don't all have to exploit a single, specific, intentionally situational game mechanic to pull themselves up to operating standard.

I am dubious of anyone who says they love defenders, love what they do on a team, and then immediately talk about them having problems with soloing. That's the point.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee View Post
I am dubious of anyone who says they love defenders, love what they do on a team, and then immediately talk about them having problems with soloing. That's the point.
Agreed. Any buff to defenders needs to be in conjunction with a team. They could stand to have their damage increased a bit, but the defender inherent needs to be made useful. Right now it will never come into play when a defender is doing her job.

The "Vigilance" inherent should be taken literally: defenders should not be falling asleep on the job. One way of doing this would be to give a defender a mez protection/resistance buff for each team member, similar to Khelds getting mez resistance for each controller or dominator on the team. Or they could build up a "Vigilance" power similar to Domination that provides two minutes of mez pro/res and end reduction when clicked, and is charged by the Defender primary powers (something like Domination and Defiance).

The latter would be more useful in general, but I'd be happy enough with the former.

 

Posted

While you may agree with my point, I just want to note, I don't necessarily think that that your secondary point - buffs in team settings - follows. I also don't think Vigilance needs buffing.

 

Posted

The inherent is just one of many things that contributes to archetype balance. VEATs have an absolutely terrible inherent, and yet they're clearly better than most other archetypes.
Having a poor inherent doesn't automatically make defenders in need of a buff.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
Agreed. Any buff to defenders needs to be in conjunction with a team. They could stand to have their damage increased a bit, but the defender inherent needs to be made useful. Right now it will never come into play when a defender is doing her job.

The "Vigilance" inherent should be taken literally: defenders should not be falling asleep on the job. One way of doing this would be to give a defender a mez protection/resistance buff for each team member, similar to Khelds getting mez resistance for each controller or dominator on the team. Or they could build up a "Vigilance" power similar to Domination that provides two minutes of mez pro/res and end reduction when clicked, and is charged by the Defender primary powers (something like Domination and Defiance).

The latter would be more useful in general, but I'd be happy enough with the former.
A nice idea in general however someone like the FF defender.. once the bubbles are out how do they build their Vigliance bar ???

I would like to see a bit more damage on the defender secondaries since blasting is what they are supposed to be secnd best at and I would like to see a vigilance that helps buff the character better...

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
I consider it to be way better when the fully slotted corruptor version is just a few percent away from the unslotted defender version.
It's the same as a fully slotted Scrapper or Brute compared to the defenses of a Tanker.

I think we can say, though, that a Corruptor is supposed to be balanced defensively with a Defender, which is why it has more hit points, instead of less hit points like a Scrapper or Brute have compared to a Tanker. Likewise the Defender and Corruptor seem to be about balanced in damage, with the Corruptor having the higher base, but the Defender having the better buffs. IF the Defender has buffs.

 

Posted

I've not played a Corruptor much (though my first character waaaaay back when I was on a free trial was a Corruptor), but they strike me as being much like a Defender, but reversed. That is, Defenders are more defensive, Corruptors are more offensive.

Thus, I would expect Defenders to have better defenses (personal and otherwise) while I would expect Corruptors to have higher offense.

Not saying this is the way it is, just that this is how it seems to me.

 

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Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
I've not played a Corruptor much (though my first character waaaaay back when I was on a free trial was a Corruptor), but they strike me as being much like a Defender, but reversed. That is, Defenders are more defensive, Corruptors are more offensive.

Thus, I would expect Defenders to have better defenses (personal and otherwise) while I would expect Corruptors to have higher offense.

Not saying this is the way it is, just that this is how it seems to me.
That's probably the way they were thought up, but not really the way they are in practice. For one thing, there is only ~15% difference in their damage. If you were to compare them as a Primary to Secondary, supposedly 100% to 75%, then a Corruptor is 100%, and a Defender is 86.67%. Likewise, just like a Controller a Corruptor's buffs and debuffs are not 75% of a Defender's across the board, but 75%, 80% or 88% depending on the power.

Scourge probably helps with the damage, but at the very least I'd say it's more like 80%/100% and 100%/80%. And as Defenders buff their damage, they get closer to Corruptors. So as I said, Corruptors start with more HP and damage, but Defenders catch up once they start using their offensive and defensive buffs.

In short, Corruptors aren't different from Defenders, just a little more consistent. They start off a little better, but once you've got buffs and debuffs going, it's about the same. And I'm guessing this is intentional, since as mentioned the devs have said they felt Defenders were balanced in the past. Instead of trying to mess with the formula, they just tweaked it a little, but left Corruptors performing about where Defenders were.

And in my own experience, I've found my Dark and Rad Corruptors don't really seem to behave all that differently from my Defenders. The attacks come sooner, which is great, and when I'm running low on End my higher damage does make it easier to do without the debuffs. On the other hand, Sonic I really noticed the additional damage, and although it was not as great as if I'd had more debuffs, it was better soloing than the Defender version. So you really feel the lack of damage on a Defender more than you feel the lack of defense on a Corruptor. Or that's my experience, anyway.

I have to admit that if Defenders are in need of a buff, Corruptors could use one as well. They are holding on, but when compared against Masterminds they're not anywhere close to damage specialists. They're not even really the ranged damage dealers compared to Dominators any more, either. (More like the role is split between the two ATs)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
A nice idea in general however someone like the FF defender.. once the bubbles are out how do they build their Vigliance bar ???
Actually, Domination, Defiance and Gauntlet are all built by using either both the Primary and Secondary, or if necessary just the Secondary, and I don't see why, if you were to have Vigilance built actively, the blasts wouldn't be included as well.

I personally have recommended this before, as like Gauntlet, it would give Defenders a very good reason to use their Secondary. They are not only blasting, but they are doing a better job of defending the team. And instead of Vigilance just giving FF Defenders more End that they can really do nothing with but blast or scatter the foes, they will be able to blast (or scatter foes, if that's what they want ) to conserve powers for bubbles afterwards. More active Defenders, like TA or even Empathy, would just get Vigilance for being active.

Just a suggestion, though, and I'm still open for what the actual effect of Vigilance should be. There's plenty of room for better ideas. Such as, you could boost the Defender's damage if he uses defensive powers, and his resistance if he uses offensive powers. (With perhaps the End discount for attacks) That would naturally balance the Primaries that give more offense, compared to defense.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
Agreed. Any buff to defenders needs to be in conjunction with a team. They could stand to have their damage increased a bit, but the defender inherent needs to be made useful. Right now it will never come into play when a defender is doing her job.

The "Vigilance" inherent should be taken literally: defenders should not be falling asleep on the job. One way of doing this would be to give a defender a mez protection/resistance buff for each team member, similar to Khelds getting mez resistance for each controller or dominator on the team. Or they could build up a "Vigilance" power similar to Domination that provides two minutes of mez pro/res and end reduction when clicked, and is charged by the Defender primary powers (something like Domination and Defiance).

The latter would be more useful in general, but I'd be happy enough with the former.
Vigilance should give bonus end reduction for being an active defender working similar to Defiance and Fury. The more the defender uses powers, the faster the Vigilance bar fills. But to prevent breaking that system, keep the spamming of only 1 power (think "rocking the aura" or giving 1 peep CM all the time) from stacking more than 2-3 times to fill the bar. Toggles could work by how many are in the affected area. And attacks should fill the bar MORE then just spamming from the primary.

Now back to the OP: give my defenders more damage please!

Case in point: On a recent Posi tf, 2 defenders (me on a sonic/sonic and another, Kin/elec) were blasting away at an even lvl conning lieutant CoT mage with 1/2 HP left. We each landed approx 4 outta 8 attacks, with both of us having Siphon power active on us, and we still couldn't finish it off. Here comes the lvl 12 scrapper and "whack! It is dead with 1 hit!" while we could have each blasted away for a few more attacks before killing it. Sure we were both safe, but WTH with just a little more damage bonus, we could have finished it off.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Mr_Body View Post
We each landed approx 4 outta 8 attacks
There's your problem.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
(Corruptors and Defenders) 80%/100% and 100%/80%
Which is completely fair, but only if you accept the assumption that buff/debuff ability is a fair 1-to-1 trade for damage dealing ability. But that's a tough assumption to justify, since buffs and debuffs in this game are easy for any AT to softcap (+def/-tohit, -def/+tohit, mez protection), or easy for any AT to hardcap (Fulcrum Shift, slows, heals), or aren't stronger in a defender's hands (recharge/recovery/regeneration buffs/debuffs, endurance drains in PvE). That leaves very few buff or debuff types that fully benefit from the extra defender power, +resist, -resist, and -damage being the only three I can think of.

Another thing I'd toss in there is that defenders have better mez durations than corruptors and masterminds. That'd be more significant if non-controller mezzes weren't so heavily penalized, but it does help a little.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
A nice idea in general however someone like the FF defender.. once the bubbles are out how do they build their Vigliance bar ???

I would like to see a bit more damage on the defender secondaries since blasting is what they are supposed to be secnd best at and I would like to see a vigilance that helps buff the character better...
Completely Agree !

Although it seems more thematic for ALL Inherents to be based off the AT's primary, consider Tankers and how the Developers approached their Inherent ability.

I think any attempt to base Vigilance off the primary powersets is doomed from the start because of how different each performs during battle. Which only leaves two options, as I see it; base it off a generic element like Health bars, Endurance Bars, etc... OR... tie it to the defender's secondaries and have the effect improve their primary role in some way.

How this can be done, well... here we are... still...

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Completely Agree !

Although it seems more thematic for ALL Inherents to be based off the AT's primary, consider Tankers and how the Developers approached their Inherent ability.

I think any attempt to base Vigilance off the primary powersets is doomed from the start because of how different each performs during battle. Which only leaves two options, as I see it; base it off a generic element like Health bars, Endurance Bars, etc... OR... tie it to the defender's secondaries and have the effect improve their primary role in some way.

How this can be done, well... here we are... still...
What about (and it may have been suggested previously)...

Reduce the effect of the bubbles and make them usable by the Defender.

Then change the Defender inherent so it increases the effect of his powers relative to the number of people on the team...?


Just a thought off the cuff...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
What about (and it may have been suggested previously)...

Reduce the effect of the bubbles and make them usable by the Defender.

Then change the Defender inherent so it increases the effect of his powers relative to the number of people on the team...?


Just a thought off the cuff...
What about every other single target buff for defenders ?

fort, AB , sonic bubbles, ice shields

You are suggesting probably the single biggest nerf in the game's history to dedicated duos


@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
What about (and it may have been suggested previously)...

Reduce the effect of the bubbles and make them usable by the Defender.

Then change the Defender inherent so it increases the effect of his powers relative to the number of people on the team...?


Just a thought off the cuff...
Hello Ultimo,

I am going to avoid suggestions regarding individual powersets for the duration of my solo Empath quest. But in regards to Vigilance, I dont think it should be tied to the defender primary powers in any way. As much as it would be thematic, it seems too dificult to arrive at ONE effect that every Defender would be happy with.

As far as basing it off the number of team-mates, well I have never liked that concept.
Regardless of whether its thematic, no other AT suffers from this type of Inherent effect (defect for me).

Every AT can count on their Inherent both on teams and solo, and the effect is pretty much the same. The only AT that could come to the debate with a legitimate complaint (Hero-side) other than Defenders, is Tankers, and at least they get "something" when solo, albeit not anything spectacular.

BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Hello Ultimo,

I am going to avoid suggestions regarding individual powersets for the duration of my solo Empath quest. But in regards to Vigilance, I dont think it should be tied to the defender primary powers in any way. As much as it would be thematic, it seems too dificult to arrive at ONE effect that every Defender would be happy with.

As far as basing it off the number of team-mates, well I have never liked that concept.
Regardless of whether its thematic, no other AT suffers from this type of Inherent effect (defect for me).

Every AT can count on their Inherent both on teams and solo, and the effect is pretty much the same. The only AT that could come to the debate with a legitimate complaint (Hero-side) other than Defenders, is Tankers, and at least they get "something" when solo, albeit not anything spectacular.
Wait, what do tankers get solo?

Gauntlet? Which keeps them aggrod? Tell me, what AT, while solo, has trouble with keeping aggro?

Besides stalkers :P

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Posted

Hm. I guess you're right. Plus, it doesn't consider the buffing sets...

As for Tankers, I've often suggested adding an endurance discount to Gauntlet that increases with the number of foes (like Invincible) - that is, the more foes affected by Gauntlet, the greater the endurance discount.

That would help them solo OR in teams.

 

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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning View Post
Wait, what do tankers get solo?

Gauntlet? Which keeps them aggrod? Tell me, what AT, while solo, has trouble with keeping aggro?

Besides stalkers :P
Its Been awhile since I have played my Tankers, but doesnt Taunt now add a -rng debuff.
I am pretty sure that was implemented at the same time as the inherent.

Perhaps, technically, its not part of Gauntlet. My Bad

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimo_ View Post
As for Tankers, I've often suggested adding an endurance discount to Gauntlet that increases with the number of foes (like Invincible) - that is, the more foes affected by Gauntlet, the greater the endurance discount.

That would help them solo OR in teams.
I didn't know Tankers needed endurance discounts, or help soloing, or in teams...given it is among the very best performing ATs in the game.

1. Endurance: Tankers have access to endurance management tools in, on top of my head, 3 primaries, 1 secondary and 1 epic Pool. They have significantly better damage, and generally run cheaper toggles than Defenders...which indicates their endurance difficulties are less than that of Defenders.

2. Solo: Did I mention Tankers have better damage than Defenders? They have much better survivability too (too much tbh). That makes them better soloists.

3. Team: Tankers are pretty much required in teams (esp. on hard missions which we all love to do) where as Defenders are better replaced with Controllers.

Doesn't sound like Tankers are in need of buffing the same way Defenders are does it?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
Its Been awhile since I have played my Tankers, but doesnt Taunt now add a -rng debuff.
I am pretty sure that was implemented at the same time as the inherent.

Perhaps, technically, its not part of Gauntlet. My Bad
Its part of the power taunt, for brutes and tanks as well as confront for scrappers rather than part of gauntlet.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post
3. Team: Tankers are pretty much required in teams (esp. on hard missions which we all love to do) where as Defenders are better replaced with Controllers.
Gonna have to strongly disagree with you there. In fact, tanks have been complaining for years that they are completely replaceable by a good controller or several of the defender primaries, (think dark), especially in the late game. I'm lucky enough that I play with people that believe in "bring whatever you want, we'll figure it out." But, if I was joining a team that was all damage, no support, I'd reach for my ill/rad troller first, my dark/rad defender second.

Tanks are nice to have on a team, just like every other powerset.

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