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The threat to tanks is not a direct one. Not in all, and its a bit of a failed design but one of the things that make tankers useful in teams is that even if the defender makes everyone nigh-tanks, the defender himself is too vulnerable and needs aggro taken care off to keep the rest of the team alive.|
Originally Posted by Star_Seer
I highly dought that defenders are a threat to a tanks postion if they can self buff. At best they would have to take a third rate taunt from the presence pool to even have a chance of holding aggro.
There is no way in hell I would want a defender to try and tank for my fire/fire blaster, willpower tanks give me enough cause to hesitate already :P Even if a defender can match the defence their resistance and hitpoint caps are not even in the same universe as a tanks. |
If even the defender can tankify himself, then there is just no use for tankers to be on a team that has defenders on it.
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As I noted, there is only one set that does not have a form of damage boost: Force Fields.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Damage advantage gained through -res/+dmg powers is irrelevant to the discussion since those aren't available in every set, and a 25% advantage in a -res/+dmg power doesn't translate into a 25% damage advantage. We're talking about base+inherent damage here, a subject that covers every level range and isn't balanced around when you finally get that special -res/+dmg power from whatever set you chose, if there even is one.
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Of the remaining, Emp is the only one that can't use any of it's damage buffing solo and is limited to only buffing the team partially (due to very bad recharge/duration ratios)
So by that logic tanks are are already obsolete due to IOs, so why are you punishing defenders by dissalowing self buffs?
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As I been told by Castle: too wrongs don't make a right.|
Originally Posted by Star_Seer
So by that logic tanks are are already obsolete due to IOs, so why are you punishing defenders by dissalowing self buffs?
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In teams Defenders are already considered overpowered and the devs have expressed they are not really too happy with their power multiplier nature.
Any buff to the soloing experience must have minimal impact on their teaming capabilities, this includes their team support AND their personal safety in extreme hazard situations (teams.)
Just to let everyone know, I'm spitballing ideas. So I am aware that they may be unbalanced or outright broken., but if they get people thinking then it's served it's purpose.
How about this idea: For every Buff the Defender casts that affects another player, a percentage of the Buff comes back to the caster.
I know it has holes: It doesn't help Debuff-only sets like Trick Arrow and on full teams buffing eight people could have problem unless they don't stack. Note this wouldn't affect powers that buff you and everyone around you. So it's less useful on sets like Empathy which has a lot of PBAoE auras.
How about this as a companion: Defender DeBuffs can "Critical" on enemy mobs where there's a 5-10% chance for extra debuffage. Maybe you could go as far as extending that to the Defender Blast sets. In that regard Archery gets left out, unless you could have a random "To-Hit buff" applied per attack.
That's almost the approach you have to take: Something for the Buffs and something for the Debuffs, or a global approach like "more base damage".
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
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Does not help soloing and that's the place where certain builds (not all) need help.|
Originally Posted by Raithnor_Mal
How about this idea: For every Buff the Defender casts that affects another player, a percentage of the Buff comes back to the caster.
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As for the other points, debuffing sets are not in dire need of help either, they already benefit from all their debuffs.
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What people can make themselves to believe or to say in order to win an argument. Are you honestly claiming that a FF/Elec defender is the fastest soloist you've ever played?
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
That's strange, I'm about halfway through levelling up my FF/Elec SOLO project. I'm actually leveling faster than I ever have before with this character, and all completely solo. And with a primary that doesn't help my damage and a secondary that's considered to be one of the lowest damaging secondaries. Hmmmm....
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Yes, the late game defender is survivable and can even dish out enough damage with enough endurance efficiency to do decently. I would like to see them perform better from level 15 to 35 (and especially 25 to 35). The APPs are nice as a choice to become more resilient, no argument.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
NOW you can just get a lot of native smash/lethal resistance without even looking at your primary, mind you, it's late game but still possible.
It would mess too much with tanker desirability if the defender can barely be killed. |
Tanker and defender playstyle is drastically different (even though they have similar issues in the early-mid game of low damage and not enough slots). Visually, mechanically, and on player approach to a spawn. The feel of the two ATs are so different, that even if one was dramatically better at earning in game rewards, people would still be drawn to the other AT just for the different look and feel.
Also, while a noticeable improvement in survivability, increasing defender HPs to scrapper level is not going to mean they are unkillable and should not have a drastic impact on playstyle, as defenders will still need to utilize their active mitigation in order to survive. It will give them a larger margin of error and make a difference for those defenders who rely on being close to the action. It may also help ranged defenders deal better with that boss that is not locked down (think DE and Freak Tanks who seem to love chasing defenders).
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
What I'd recommend if anything:
Empathy: Allow to somehow use Fortitude on self so its useful solo. Force Fields: Repulsion Field and Force Bubble seem extremely redundant to me. I'd say turning Repulsion Field into a -resist power that just has a base end cost (no per foe -end.) |
The debuff values are generally already very high so improving those is not a viable option, IMO. As good as they are, those debuffs are also not readily apparent to most players. Improving the damage will have a visible impact that will encourage more players to appreciate the blasts. It will be a good contribution to a team, as well as an aid in soloing.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
So let me get this straight, the devs don't like stacking buffs and then they released VEATs???
No I don't get it...
Seems like a vendetta against defenders now.
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Originally Posted by Star_Seer
So let me get this straight, the devs don't like stacking buffs and then they released VEATs???
No I don't get it... Seems like a vendetta against defenders now. |
You are right, they removed the ability to self buff recently. It was never part of their design.
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Its dangerous to improve the base values of all sets when all but two sets have the ability to make those attacks even stronger. Would be less risky to just give those two sets the tools to make their blasts stronger.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
IMO, Empathy and FF are not the only sets that should be improved. That is a soloing argument, and while I do believe helping defenders solo is an important aspect of any plan to improve defenders, I feel it is more important to improve the performance of their blasts in a team setting.
The debuff values are generally already very high so improving those is not a viable option, IMO. As good as they are, those debuffs are also not readily apparent to most players. Improving the damage will have a visible impact that will encourage more players to appreciate the blasts. It will be a good contribution to a team, as well as an aid in soloing. |
hmm, I guess next time i get the urge to roll up another defender I should make another Huntsman instead and revel in my soft-capped defences, resistance and def debuffs, double assault, build-up, pets and mez protection plus aoe control and damage to make most ranged ATs weep with jealous rage 
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Why? If a Rad/ defender puts EF on an enemy, the defender's damage is increased. It is also true that a scrapper's and blaster's higher damage is increased. The defender does not replace them. If a Kin gets a big damage buff from FS, yes, his damage is increased, but so is his tanker and blaster teammates. The defender does not replace them.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Its dangerous to improve the base values of all sets when all but two sets have the ability to make those attacks even stronger. Would be less risky to just give those two sets the tools to make their blasts stronger.
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I fail to see the danger, but am willing to try.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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A pet is an interesting idea and it has several pros. Pets add survivability because they get shot instead of the character, they add damage (practically endurance free, usually), and they can receive those buffs the defender cannot use on himself. A pet would definitely confer about the same benefit as increased HPs and damage (and indirectly add some mez protection, as mezzing attacks will go at the pet instead of the defender).|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Hmmmmm why not just add a pet to the Epics? Though I do see your point about the low levels. How about a compromise? 50% of the HP buff that you suggest and add a single "fire imp style" (a single attack, Brawl only) buffable pet at level 41 to the Epics.
The minor HP increase helps in the low levels and the pet in the Epic helps soloing in the high levels when you have most of your buff powers that can't be used on yourself. ... 2) Add a pet to the Epic at level 41. This will allow the defender to use all those teammate only powers even while they are solo. Want the pet earlier? Make it part of the inherent. A long recharge click (1000 seconds or more) that is affected by outside recharge (like Domination) but isn't slottable (like Domination). It's then up to you to keep your pet alive with your buffs, debuffs, and blasts. The pet should be a brawl only pet so all defender pets would be identical in powers but it could be set up to use ANY pet sprite available in the game (within reason) just make the pet 1/2 the normal size so that teammates can tell it's the defender version. This would give the defender those extra hit points that you want and could be made available from level 1. |
A pet feels wrong. There are already 3 pet ATs in the game, 4 if you include the VEAT with pets. Dark Miasma adds the pet for defenders and corruptors as an option.
When I pick a defender or corruptor, its about personal power. I want to be active, I want to be shooting. I like the concept of these ATs as is and pet wrangling plays differently enough that it does not appeal to me as a solution. When I want to pet wrangle, I play a MM, controller, or dominator. I play a defender to help my team and shoot people in the face, not to buff and control my pet. I also do not want another buff set that encourages buffing an NPC instead of teammates.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I thought your argument was that the difference in corruptor damage potential is too large compared to the difference in defender support potential.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Damage advantage gained through -res/+dmg powers is irrelevant to the discussion since those aren't available in every set, and a 25% advantage in a -res/+dmg power doesn't translate into a 25% damage advantage. We're talking about base+inherent damage here, a subject that covers every level range and isn't balanced around when you finally get that special -res/+dmg power from whatever set you chose, if there even is one.
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Because in theory, a defender that can debuff the foe's resistance by 30% already has in average a modifier of about .84, higher than tankers. Make that .9 and you suddenly have the defender at a theoretical 1.17. Add a second one and it becomes average of 1.44 per defender. At this point why bother with anything but defenders? Only reason not to do so is because there are no defenders around to pick into your team.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why? If a Rad/ defender puts EF on an enemy, the defender's damage is increased. It is also true that a scrapper's and blaster's higher damage is increased. The defender does not replace them. If a Kin gets a big damage buff from FS, yes, his damage is increased, but so is his tanker and blaster teammates. The defender does not replace them.
I fail to see the danger, but am willing to try. |
The idea with defenders buffing damage is not that they should be dealing damage, is that they make others better at dealing damage. Wanting both is wanting to have a cake and eating it too. You can't have it both ways.
I've always hated that saying.
What's the point of having a cake if you can't eat it?
/threadjack
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You could include -Res/+Dmg on both sides and corruptors would still be ahead in damage vs support. However AT base damage is never balanced around around the presence of -res/+dmg powers in support powersets, that is something to be left for power balance not AT balance.
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Originally Posted by Garent
I thought your argument was that the difference in corruptor damage potential is too large compared to the difference in defender support potential.
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Unless you're suggesting to make Enervating Field an inherent for all defenders and corruptors and controllers, I don't see how that is relevant to balancing damage modifiers. You can't include anything that isn't available to all sets at lvl 1 thru lvl 50 when balancing damage modifiers, unless it's a recurring consistent theme like Assasin's Strikes/Placate/hide for stalkers. -Res/+dmg support powers aren't consistently the same value or available at the same levels or even available at all for some sets.
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Because in theory, a defender that can debuff the foe's resistance by 30% already has in average a modifier of about .84, higher than tankers. Make that .9 and you suddenly have the defender at a theoretical 1.17. Add a second one and it becomes average of 1.44 per defender. At this point why bother with anything but defenders? Only reason not to do so is because there are no defenders around to pick into your team.
The idea with defenders buffing damage is not that they should be dealing damage, is that they make others better at dealing damage. Wanting both is wanting to have a cake and eating it too. You can't have it both ways. |
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I want both and I think it is important that both exist. After all, I doubt you would agree with the following statement: The idea with tankers being nigh unkillable aggro magnets is not that they should be dealing damage, it's that they make others better at dealing damage.|
Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
Because in theory, a defender that can debuff the foe's resistance by 30% already has in average a modifier of about .84, higher than tankers. Make that .9 and you suddenly have the defender at a theoretical 1.17. Add a second one and it becomes average of 1.44 per defender. At this point why bother with anything but defenders? Only reason not to do so is because there are no defenders around to pick into your team.
The idea with defenders buffing damage is not that they should be dealing damage, is that they make others better at dealing damage. Wanting both is wanting to have a cake and eating it too. You can't have it both ways. |
I also only suggested 0.8 for defenders (0.9 is for corruptors). As for how resistance debuffs stack, I am aware of that, and still feel 0.8 is acceptable. The targeting and animation time taken to put down those debuffs makes blasters and scrappers still very valuable. On teams with high damage ATs, it is quite frequent for Rads/ to lose all opportunity to toggle (except as a defensive reaction due to adds or crazy teams), FS to be near useless (and frequently blown due to the dead target mechanic), and Tar Patch to do its thing for all of 5 seconds (instead of the 7 it would have taken without the Tar Patch). One of the reasons I love Storm so much is that its resistance debuff also massively mitigates damage with just a drop and so has a use beyond just more damage.
Except vs. AVs and GMs (and I guess EBs to a lesser extent), resistance debuffing is overrated. It is very good, and can be helpful on teams lacking blasters/scrappers/brutes/etc. But in regular missions, I'd rather have more blasters as long as you can keep them upright.
Why bother with anything but defenders? More status quo. All defender teams are currently in the top tier. Certain controller builds can edge them, and corruptors are similar enough that whatever difference exists will be swamped by player skill anyway.
But on smaller teams, if you want to keep the team small, it is often wise to grab a blaster/scrapper for damage or a controller/tanker for lockdown, and that will still be the case even with my changes.
Why bother with anything but defenders? Because I want to kick, bash, rip, shred, punch, stabbity-death baddies. More than anything, the melee attacks that defenders, corruptors, controllers, and MMs do not get will keep armored ATs, blasters, and dominators doing just fine.
That is probably the reason I will never get to play a Katana / Kinetics character. If I can get buff / debuff with stabbity death, then we might have an issue.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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That is entirely false.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Unless you're suggesting to make Enervating Field an inherent for all defenders and corruptors and controllers, I don't see how that is relevant to balancing damage modifiers. You can't include anything that isn't available to all sets at lvl 1 thru lvl 50 when balancing damage modifiers, unless it's a recurring consistent theme like Assasin's Strikes/Placate/hide for stalkers. -Res/+dmg support powers aren't consistently the same value or available at the same levels or even available at all for some sets.
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The only thing that is "never accounted" during balance are pool powers and even those you can be sure ARE looked at, just not expected.
All ATs are balanced around goals. The defender is given very low damage modifiers but very high damage buff and debuff modifiers. That should give you a clue about how they expect the defender to work their offensive. The only way you can ever expect defenders to get a damage buff, is to suffer a damage buff nerf and I doubt you will ever see that happen.
The fact that two sets cant ever get the tools needed is what is questionable.
All sets across defenders, controllers, corruptors and masterminds have the tools to increase their own damage but two, i think that leaves a lot to say about those two, not about the AT.
The progression of sets is a set design issue that is present all over the game but all ATs are balanced around access to the full sets, not just what they had at level 1. If it was, then I'd start asking Castle to give mez protection and inherent taunt to scrappers right now, and make assassination available at lvl 1 not lvl 8, etc.
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So you feel that all support AT base damage should be balanced around the assumption that you have access to Enervating Field? Yeah that makes so much sense /sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Starsman_NA
That is entirely false.
The only thing that is "never accounted" during balance are pool powers and even those you can be sure ARE looked at, just not expected. All ATs are balanced around goals. The defender is given very low damage modifiers but very high damage buff and debuff modifiers. That should give you a clue about how they expect the defender to work their offensive. The only way you can ever expect defenders to get a damage buff, is to suffer a damage buff nerf and I doubt you will ever see that happen. The fact that two sets cant ever get the tools needed is what is questionable. All sets across defenders, controllers, corruptors and masterminds have the tools to increase their own damage but two, i think that leaves a lot to say about those two, not about the AT. The progression of sets is a set design issue that is present all over the game but all ATs are balanced around access to the full sets, not just what they had at level 1. If it was, then I'd start asking Castle to give mez protection and inherent taunt to scrappers right now, and make assassination available at lvl 1 not lvl 8, etc. |
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It must be considered. You can't just ignore it. That being said, I think its effect is overblown and should not prevent a damage increase. |
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
So you feel that all support AT base damage should be balanced around the assumption that you have access to Enervating Field? Yeah that makes so much sense /sarcasm
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I am interested in seeing why I am wrong, but simply flashing some numbers going 1.3*X without considering things like tabbing through a spawn to find which target you will toggle, the animation time of the power itself, the fact that you aggrod without dealing any damage, the enemies you have to kill outside the area of effect, etc. will be mitigated in my head by those factors.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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They've ignored such things in the past, such as double-mire eclipsed warshades when balancing Kheldian AT damage.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It must be considered. You can't just ignore it. That being said, I think its effect is overblown and should not prevent a damage increase.
I am interested in seeing why I am wrong, but simply flashing some numbers going 1.3*X without considering things like tabbing through a spawn to find which target you will toggle, the animation time of the power itself, the fact that you aggrod without dealing any damage, the enemies you have to kill outside the area of effect, etc. will be mitigated in my head by those factors. |
I take it Ski is talking about damage and sticking to the "there is enough survivability as it is" side of the arguments.
That being told, here is a quick breakdown of things:
Lets say you have 7 scrappers without criticals (for simplicity.) Now, they do base 1.125 damage and the defender does .65 damage.
All together, they do 8.525 dps (keeping it simple at one ds per second.)
Enhanced this goes to 16.62 dps.
Lets do the same now with corruptors: 7 scrappers and a corruptor. Lets assume that Scourge gives a 21% damage benefit, although this is extremely optimistic and only realistic soloing bosses/ebs/AVs and GMs.
The result is 8.78 total dps by the team or 17.13 once fully enhanced.
OK, the corruptor team puts a bit more damage. Lets give both ATs the Pool power Assault. That is for defenders 18.5% and for Corruptors 14.8%
Will skip the math but in the end:
Corruptor team 18.43 dps
Defender team 18.2 dps
OK, the corruptor wins by a hair. Now lets add Tar Patch to the mix. That power is 30% for defenders and 24% for corruptors. The end result is:
Corruptor team 22.85 dps
Defender team 23.66 dps
As you can see, the defender came up ahead rather fast. Lets remove Assault and relly purely on Tar Patch and we get:
Corruptor team 21.24
Defender team 21.61
Its by a hair but the defender team once more wins.
I ran the same test with 7 tankers and a defender, the team still got more damage from the defender than from the scrapper with the defender team being at 15.84 and the corruptor team being at 15.74, a very thin hair, but the defender team still is ahead.
In the end: I think defenders and corruptors will be rather interchangeable in basic teams, but trully min-maxed teams will prefer a defender over an equivalent corruptor. I can see them picking a Kin corruptor over a empath defender, though, but that happens right now with controllers.
Going Rogue will not make the defender any less desirable, it may, however, make it less popular than it already is as it's much less solo friendly than the corruptor equivalent while the corruptor equivalent will have almost as much demand in teams. This just brings the question of making defender solo experience more enjoyable but not as good as the corruptor. Well, I do can see the defender solo experience exceeding the corruptor only when heavy settup is involved (high debuff situations) that require a bit more gamble and risk plus more susceptibility to purple patch than the corruptor equivalent.