Well see and they smoothed the lvling curve as well. Do you consider yourself the average defender player? You have been around a long time, is this your first defender?
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Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Well see and they smoothed the lvling curve as well. Do you consider yourself the average defender player? You have been around a long time, is this your first defender?
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Yes, it is my first defender. And my first time ever playing force fields before.
(sshhhhh!!! quiet guys! I wanna see how long I can keep this going!)
Right so you are not the average player, would a buff without a nerf make you mad? If enough players think this is needed, then the Devs may address the issue or at least look into it.
[btw posting while doing a tf, so if I miss something again so obvious, oh well]
I think Defenders are just fine as they are. Except the inherent, which is pointless.
Replace it with something else and I'll be happy. Hell, I'm happy right now and I just ignore the inherent.
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So how would a damage buff hurt you? You seem adamantly opposed to the whole idea and yet don't state how you are going to suffer because of it.
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
I think Defenders are just fine as they are. Except the inherent, which is pointless.
Replace it with something else and I'll be happy. Hell, I'm happy right now and I just ignore the inherent. |
It would put us out of balance with the rest of the ATs, that's how it would hurt us.
I could go a few more rounds with you Turbo, but there really is no point. Controllers are the only AT out of balance with their abilities. The rest are fine when you compare their damage to EVERYTHING ELSE THEY CAN DO.
Scrappers can do damage and stay alive. Tankers can stay alive slightly better and do slightly less damage. Blasters can do awesome damage but have a problem with death. Defenders do slightly less damage and have less problem with death.
Controllers have virtually NO problem with death and are at the top ranks in terms of damage. They are the ONLY outlier in the balancing act. They are the farmers because of their complete mitigation of enemy damage PLUS the damage that they get which is comparable to the top tier of every other AT.
You've conveniently never answered just why it is that Controllers outnumber every other AT by a significant factor Turbo. But that's what you do, only answer what you want to answer and ignore the inconvenient questions.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again, Controllers are the only nail sticking out of the board and they need to be hammered down, EITHER in the damage department OR in the support department. Because they do both too much better than everyone else. If they want to keep their damage sure, but lower the ability of their secondaries.
With, that, I'll exit the thread as there is no reasoning with Turbo and it just goes in circles. I'm tired of it. I've said my piece and I'm done with the whole debate. I'm not going to engage in that debate again. The devs will do what they choose to do.
And yes, that means I'm taking my toys and going home like a little kid.
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I still disagree with you on this point What can be shown to be wrong with defenders? Yes, some solo better than others. But this buff would not be given freely (aka nerf to something else). The devs have a history of balancing what they do for the whole game. Buffing defenders would require either some kind of reduction or balance to other ATs, especially corruptors. Defenders are an AT that make others shine more greatly, as you know and the other posters point out. They would have to diminish our ability to enhance others if we are to become more soloable, and that is what I am against. | A corresponding downgrade in buff/debuff is not necessary and nothing to be afraid of because of the damage level of defenders. Buff/debuff powers across the board might "need" a reduction, but if that is deemed to be true, it will be regardless of defender personal damage output. No dev is going to reduce the buff/debuff levels of any of the ATs because of individual damage output, but rather because of how they interact on teams; teams which already could have members whose base damage is well higher than defenders even if defenders had the 0.8 damage mod. |
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| None of which is relevant and nothing in those scenarios will change if we increase defender HPs and damage. The buff/debuff values are so overwhelming, that the base HPs and damage are swamped by them in any case. If it takes 45 seconds to down an AV instead of 55, I doubt that is a big deal, in the grand scheme of things. |
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| I know what you mean. |
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No, it wouldn't since they are underperforming compared to all other ATs|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
It would put us out of balance with the rest of the ATs, that's how it would hurt us.
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| I could go a few more rounds with you Turbo, but there really is no point. Controllers are the only AT out of balance with their abilities. The rest are fine when you compare their damage to EVERYTHING ELSE THEY CAN DO. |
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Scrappers can do damage and stay alive. Tankers can stay alive slightly better and do slightly less damage. Blasters can do awesome damage but have a problem with death. Defenders do slightly less damage and have less problem with death. Controllers have virtually NO problem with death and are at the top ranks in terms of damage. They are the ONLY outlier in the balancing act. They are the farmers because of their complete mitigation of enemy damage PLUS the damage that they get which is comparable to the top tier of every other AT. |
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| You've conveniently never answered just why it is that Controllers outnumber every other AT by a significant factor Turbo. But that's what you do, only answer what you want to answer and ignore the inconvenient questions. |
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| I've said it once, and I'll say it again, Controllers are the only nail sticking out of the board and they need to be hammered down, EITHER in the damage department OR in the support department. Because they do both too much better than everyone else. If they want to keep their damage sure, but lower the ability of their secondaries. |
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With, that, I'll exit the thread as there is no reasoning with Turbo and it just goes in circles. I'm tired of it. I've said my piece and I'm done with the whole debate. I'm not going to engage in that debate again. The devs will do what they choose to do. And yes, that means I'm taking my toys and going home like a little kid. |
I rather just see defenders get a buff to their primaries and a new inherent, buffing the damage would just turn defenders into corruptors
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If you read the OP's post you would know that he is saying to raise defender to be balanced with the support<->damage trade off with corruptors and corruptor damage to be balanced with what controllers put out under containment. Corruptors would still deal 25% more damage than defenders and defenders would still have support values 25% higher than corruptors.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter_Man
I rather just see defenders get a buff to their primaries and a new inherent, buffing the damage would just turn defenders into corruptors
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In the way things currently work, don't corruptors currently deal 15% more damage (not counting scourge) than defenders while defenders have support values that are 33% higher?
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Corruptors would still deal 25% more damage than defenders and defenders would still have support values 25% higher than corruptors.
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Defender support advantage is 25% the majority of support powers at the moment mainly because most look directly at the ranged buff modifier (1.25 for defenders compared to corruptor's 1.00).|
Originally Posted by Garent
In the way things currently work, don't corruptors currently deal 15% more damage (not counting scourge) than defenders while defenders have support values that are 33% higher?
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Corruptor's scourge benefit against minion/lt/boss is a 12% damage buff for corruptors. On top of their 0.75 damage modifier it comes out to really be a modifier of 0.84. That's a 29.2% gain over the defender modifier (0.65). Keep in mind that -Res/+Dmg debuffs/buffs in support sets are part of that 25% defender gain and don't contribute to the damage difference because they aren't consistently found in every set, thusly are irrelevant when talking about base+inherent damage balance.
tldr; it's 25% defender support gain vs 29.2% corruptor damage gain at the moment.
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With 0.8 damage mod, defenders will not have the most damage, they will still be in the bottom tier. With scrapper level HPs, but mostly active mitigation methods, they will still be in the middle of the pack as far as survivability goes, but will not push past pet classes and in general most armored ATs will still have significant advantages.|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
It would put us out of balance with the rest of the ATs, that's how it would hurt us.
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For many people, they will be more fun with those changes. They will bring more to a team and will be much more inclined to use their secondary in order to debuff/control the enemy. That is the primary reason why this change is a good idea. It will make the AT appeal to more people and it will expand their percieved team role.
They will not eclipse any of the other ATs. They will not replace any ATs conceptually with those changes. Frankly, the only reason not to make those changes is because you feel defenders should stay back and be buff/debuff bots using mostly only their primary.
Do defenders "need" these changes? It would make them a hell of a lot more fun for a hell of a lot more people.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I checked it out and it looks like you're right.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Defender support advantage is 25% the majority of support powers at the moment mainly because most look directly at the ranged buff modifier (1.25 for defenders compared to corruptor's 1.00).
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Defender Enervating Field: -30% res -25% dam
Corruptor Enervating Field: -22.5% res -20% dam
30/22.5 = 133%
25/20 = 125%
Defender Radiation Infection: -31.3% def -31.3% tohit
Corruptor Radiation Infection: -25% def -25% tohit
31.3/25 = 125%
Defender Ice Shield: 15% defense
Corruptor Ice Shield: 11.3% defense
15/11.3 = 133%
Defender Sonic Barrier: 20% resistance
Corruptor Sonic Barrier: 15% resistance
20/15 = 133%
Defender O2 Boost: 176.7 HP
Corruptor O2 Boost: 155.5 HP
176.6/155.5 = 114%
Defender Snow Storm: 62.5% slow
Corruptor Snow Storm: 50% slow
62.5/50 = 125%
Defender Accelerate Metabolism: 25% dam
Corruptor Accelerate Metabolism: 20% dam
25/20 = 125%
The Breakdown:
Modifiers for which defenders have a 33% advantage: resistance debuffing, defense buffing, and resistance buffing. (3)
Modifiers for which defenders have a 25% advantage: damage debuffing, defense debuffing, tohit debuffing, speed debuffing, and damage buffing. (5)
Recharge buffs and endurance drain seem to be using the same values, though I doubt many people care about the latter.
However, I think that saying that scourge is a 12% damage buff isn't accurate. Scourge has a habit of causing wasted overkill: damage far over the enemy's remaining hp total which doesn't actually help you at all. The proper way of measuring scourge's benefit would be to see how likely it is to come into effect on attacks in which a normal non-scourge attack would not have killed the enemy. This is a value that varies greatly depending on enemy rank, level difference, and powerset. Because of these variables, I think any attempt to show scourge's benefit in numbers, while interesting, won't really reflect how it works in game.
It's both simpler and more accurate to say "Corruptors deal 15% more damage than defenders, and they also have scourge which becomes more useful the tougher your enemies are."
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12% is the average buff against minions/lts/boss taken from extensive data simulations by Starsman. This data factors in overkilling, without factoring in overkill you end up with a number like 21.25%.
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Originally Posted by Garent
However, I think that saying that scourge is a 12% damage buff isn't accurate. Scourge has a habit of causing wasted overkill: damage far over the enemy's remaining hp total which doesn't actually help you at all. The proper way of measuring scourge's benefit would be to see how likely it is to come into effect on attacks in which a normal non-scourge attack would not have killed the enemy. This is a value that varies greatly depending on enemy rank, level difference, and powerset. Because of these variables, I think any attempt to show scourge's benefit in numbers, while interesting, won't really reflect how it works in game.
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Honestly, are you saying defenders don't bring enough for teams? And one of my defenders is emp/psi - do I really bring a whole lot more with my paultry few psi blast to help wipe out mobs? I still disagree that a free buff to defenders would be given as described. It may make defenders more soloable, but bring less to teams.| For many people, they will be more fun with those changes. They will bring more to a team and will be much more inclined to use their secondary in order to debuff/control the enemy. That is the primary reason why this change is a good idea. It will make the AT appeal to more people and it will expand their percieved team role. |
And after reading again, I just don't see how the OP will expand a defender's perceived team role.
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| Frankly, the only reason not to make those changes is because you feel defenders should stay back and be buff/debuff bots using mostly only their primary. |
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| Do defenders "need" these changes? It would make them a hell of a lot more fun for a hell of a lot more people. |
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You are making the OP's point for him here. Why do so many defenders take so few of their "paultry" attacks? Because they do so little damage.| do I really bring a whole lot more with my paultry few psi blast to help wipe out mobs? |
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| I wonder how just a bunch of buff bots beat a number of TFs if they were just standing around like your version of a defender. Even, that short MSTF run. You mention in the OP about fast paced battles - did you read that 3 of the 8 members were defenders? |
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| They were never fell out of it. |
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| They are fun now. Why ruin it by taking away what we bring to teams? |
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You're misinterpreting the context here. We're comparing Defenders to Corruptors and Controllers, both of which defenders are inferior to in team support when you look at the AT as a whole. Corruptors achieve this superiority through the rather large damage gap between them and defenders. Controllers achieve this both through damage and the fact that their primaries are all about mitigating damage. Defenders support numbers are supposed to make them superior to corruptor in overall team support but that's not going to happen unless you buff defender base damage some to lessen the corruptor/Defender damage gap so their 25% support advantage can catch up to the corruptor damage gains. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Honestly, are you saying defenders don't bring enough for teams? And one of my defenders is emp/psi - do I really bring a whole lot more with my paultry few psi blast to help wipe out mobs? I still disagree that a free buff to defenders would be given as described. It may make defenders more soloable, but bring less to teams.
And after reading again, I just don't see how the OP will expand a defender's perceived team role. |
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You disregarded my examples as irrelevant. I wonder how just a bunch of buff bots beat a number of TFs if they were just standing around like your version of a defender. Even, that short MSTF run. You mention in the OP about fast paced battles - did you read that 3 of the 8 members were defenders? They were never fell out of it. They are fun now. Why ruin it by taking away what we bring to teams? |
Of course, simply having a good tanker causes defenders the same issue as support stacking since the tanker is damage mitigating through his shields, making damage mitigation from support sets rapidly less valuable and damage capability rapidly more valuable.
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Wow, this brings back memories for me. My SG leader and my main team leader levelled an INV/SS tanker right after game launch. By the time we hit our 30s I was playing a Mind/EMP controller. I have seen this with my own eyes. I began to feel like nearly all my mitigation tools were completely unnecessary. And more often than not, my healing was the best tool I brought to the team.
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Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
Of course, simply having a good tanker causes defenders the same issue as support stacking since the tanker is damage mitigating through his shields, making damage mitigation from support sets rapidly less valuable and damage capability rapidly more valuable.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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You should not feel like your blasts are paltry. Even at 0.65 damage mod they can be meaningful, and the -recharge is more useful than many realize. At the 0.8 damage mod, few would call them paltry, it would indeed help them solo, but it would also make it more likely that on teams they would be percieved better.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
And one of my defenders is emp/psi - do I really bring a whole lot more with my paultry few psi blast to help wipe out mobs? I still disagree that a free buff to defenders would be given as described. It may make defenders more soloable, but bring less to teams.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
And after reading again, I just don't see how the OP will expand a defender's perceived team role.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
You disregarded my examples as irrelevant. I wonder how just a bunch of buff bots beat a number of TFs if they were just standing around like your version of a defender. Even, that short MSTF run. You mention in the OP about fast paced battles - did you read that 3 of the 8 members were defenders? They were never fell out of it.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
To me it is relevant because if defenders or teams of defenders can handle the hardest content of the game, then what is a radio mission or a story arc with a single AV at the end?
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
They are fun now. Why ruin it by taking away what we bring to teams?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Which is why it's not uncommon to find MoSTF teams looking for a dedicated healer for a granite tanker specifically for the tower phase.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Wow, this brings back memories for me. My SG leader and my main team leader levelled an INV/SS tanker right after game launch. By the time we hit our 30s I was playing a Mind/EMP controller. I have seen this with my own eyes. I began to feel like nearly all my mitigation tools were completely unnecessary. And more often than not, my healing was the best tool I brought to the team.
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Keep in mind Kheldans got a buff to human form damage scale similar to the damage buffs Blasters, Stalkers, and Dominators received.
My biggest suggestion is to make Defender Damage equal to about base Corruptor Damage, the Corruptor has Scourge and the Defender has better Buff numbers.
I agree Vigilance should be reworked but I have no clue on how to rework it so it affects all sets in a similar way. How about a reverse of the Blaster idea? Blasters can shoot while Mezzed, Defenders can Buff while Mezzed. Limit it to being able to use the first three powers of the primary set.
That's all I got.
"Steady as a mountain, attack like fire, still as a wood, swift as the wind.
In heaven and earth I alone am to be revered."
- Motto on the war banner of Takeda Shingen (1521-1573)
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Hmmm so a forcefielder should be able to PFF while slept (which will have no effect since toggles supress while mezzed and if it does have effect would make this vastly overpowered.)|
Originally Posted by Raithnor_Mal
Keep in mind Kheldans got a buff to human form damage scale similar to the damage buffs Blasters, Stalkers, and Dominators received.
My biggest suggestion is to make Defender Damage equal to about base Corruptor Damage, the Corruptor has Scourge and the Defender has better Buff numbers. I agree Vigilance should be reworked but I have no clue on how to rework it so it affects all sets in a similar way. How about a reverse of the Blaster idea? Blasters can shoot while Mezzed, Defenders can Buff while Mezzed. Limit it to being able to use the first three powers of the primary set. That's all I got. |
Cast Deflection Shield on teammates that probably still have it on
and Cast Force Bolt which would actually be worthwhile.
TAs could do Entangling, Flash and Glue arrows. All potentially worthwhile.
Empaths would function for n00bs and lowbies pretty much like they function when not mezzed.
Stormies would be able to gale and and potentially affect an entire spawn.
Free other teammates from Mez with O2 boost while themselves mezzed
and cast an offensive toggle (snow storm) which should detoggle immediately after casting due to the mez.....
ok that's far enough. Me no likey and it's not close to balanced.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Hmmm so a forcefielder should be able to PFF while slept (which will have no effect since toggles supress while mezzed and if it does have effect would make this vastly overpowered.)
Cast Deflection Shield on teammates that probably still have it on and Cast Force Bolt which would actually be worthwhile. TAs could do Entangling, Flash and Glue arrows. All potentially worthwhile. Empaths would function for n00bs and lowbies pretty much like they function when not mezzed. Stormies would be able to gale and and potentially affect an entire spawn. Free other teammates from Mez with O2 boost while themselves mezzed and cast an offensive toggle (snow storm) which should detoggle immediately after casting due to the mez..... ok that's far enough. Me no likey and it's not close to balanced. |
Compared to Kinetics which has selfish tier 1/2/3 powers as well, the whole AT is just so varied I don't think this could work.
Defiant EU
Quaver: Kinetics/Sonic Defender
Semiquaver: Sonic/Kinetics Corruptor
Sure you "can" build a defender to solo (a Rad/Sonic for example) but those are outliers just like the the Fire/Kin controller is.