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It sounds to me like you're suggesting that every possible power set combination for every AT should be able to solo even the most powerful AVs in the game. That seems a bit... unreasonable to me. If my interpretation of your statement is correct, would you mind explaining the reasoning behind that assertion?|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Now, this may not be the case for all Defender power sets. However, it can't be permitted for any set to be incapable of overcoming a given threat.
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Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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You're assuming that everyone should be able to overcome a given threat that is designed around having 6 players present. That's... just bad.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Now, this may not be the case for all Defender power sets. However, it can't be permitted for any set to be incapable of overcoming a given threat.
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It was never intended for anyone to be able to solo the entire game. It has happened, but only for a specific few that are specifically built for it. AVs were never intended to be solo content. Trying to claim that, because your Defender can't solo AVs, you're too weak is simply ignorant.
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Ultimo does touch on another subject though; disparity between the blast powersets. Energy has been politely considered middle of the road as far as blaster sets go. It really isn't. Boosting the weaker sets, such as Energy and Electricity, would not only benefit Defenders, but also Corruptors, Blasters and Dominators. Of course, it wouldn't alleviate the specific Defender issues - but it certainly would help the hapless Defenders stuck with these sets.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
It was never intended for anyone to be able to solo the entire game. It has happened, but only for a specific few that are specifically built for it. AVs were never intended to be solo content. Trying to claim that, because your Defender can't solo AVs, you're too weak is simply ignorant.
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I wouldn't suggest that every threat should be soloable, but if it's soloable by one character, it should be (in theory) soloable by ALL characters, though with varying difficulty. The thing that got me wasn't that I couldn't beat him, it's that I couldn't even HURT him (while he was doing enough damage to defeat me in one shot, with many of his attacks). To me, it's not fun fighting a foe you can't even hurt. I might have no chance of beating him, but at least let me feel like I'm accomplishing something.
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Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
It sounds to me like you're suggesting that every possible power set combination for every AT should be able to solo even the most powerful AVs in the game. That seems a bit... unreasonable to me. If my interpretation of your statement is correct, would you mind explaining the reasoning behind that assertion?
Robin |
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First of all, it's not necessary to call me ignorant. I said nothing to warrant a personal attack.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
You're assuming that everyone should be able to overcome a given threat that is designed around having 6 players present. That's... just bad.
It was never intended for anyone to be able to solo the entire game. It has happened, but only for a specific few that are specifically built for it. AVs were never intended to be solo content. Trying to claim that, because your Defender can't solo AVs, you're too weak is simply ignorant. |
Second, I wouldnt say an AV is solo content. This is an EB, though. Yes, it was Lord Recluse and Black Scorpion (etc.), but they're spawned as EBs. Why? so they CAN be defeated by less than a full team, including (theoretically) solo characters.
My Tanker (granted, higher level) has defeated Lord Recluse before. My Scrapper came fairly close. My Blaster didn't have a hope, but at least made a good show of it. Neither my Controller nor my Defender has a chance of doing anything to an EB or AV. My point is that they should at least be able to make a decent show of it.
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Gotcha. Thank you for elaborating.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I wouldn't suggest that every threat should be soloable, but if it's soloable by one character, it should be (in theory) soloable by ALL characters, though with varying difficulty. The thing that got me wasn't that I couldn't beat him, it's that I couldn't even HURT him (while he was doing enough damage to defeat me in one shot, with many of his attacks). To me, it's not fun fighting a foe you can't even hurt. I might have no chance of beating him, but at least let me feel like I'm accomplishing something.
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I like a challenge. That means hard. It's not a challenge if you just walk all over your opponents. It's also not a challenge if they just walk all over you. Futility and Challenge are mutually exclusive.
I don't know if I agree with you on the "If one AT/set can do it, any any AT/set can do it" philosophy. My gut says no, but my head says yes. When removing the "beat him" and replacing it with "at least make him know I showed up before he beats me into a bloody stain" I'd say that I absolutely agree.
The problem, however, is that this was AE. I haven't built many missions (at last count my published missions was exactly 0 and my missions in testing phase was exactly 1) but isn't it true that the outcomes in AE can't be considered representative of the outcomes in normal missions? I'm not talking about custom critters which we all know are hugely different from standard critters. If someone came as close as possible to exactly duplicating a regular mission in AE, wouldn't the AE version and the regular version be noticeably different in difficulty? I have no experience with that so I'm curious as to how that would effect the outcome, and therefore the validity, of your experiment.
(And I agree, that other guy's response was way out of line.)
Robin
--If we can have huge sig images, why can we have only five lines of text?
--...faceplanting like a Defender pulling an AV (Nalrok_AthZim)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
...I have the patience of a coffee-fueled flea...
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EBs are soloable by any character. I do it just fine with my energy blast defender.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Second, I wouldnt say an AV is solo content. This is an EB, though. Yes, it was Lord Recluse and Black Scorpion (etc.), but they're spawned as EBs. Why? so they CAN be defeated by less than a full team, including (theoretically) solo characters.
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I must admit that while it may not be reasonable to insist that all ATs be capable of overcoming any target, it is not unreasonable to insist that you should be capable of DAMAGING any target.
That is, there is a difference betwen being unable to defeat a foe, and being so unable to damage him that any fight turns into a stalemate. While it may be balanced to have a situation where you cannot damage the foe and he cannot damage you, that is not a balance that leads to any progress.
I will add that there were times, back when Tankers had a 0.7 damage modifier, that I ran into that often on my Inv/SS Tanker. I think that 0.7-0.75 value is significant. Most Defenders can boost their damage into the 0.75 range with a buff or debuff, but this strains their ability to keep it up indefinately. And those with no damage buff will never reach that level.
I suspect it's no coincidence that both Brutes and Corruptors start with a damage modifier of 0.75 at the minimum. And while Dominators used to have a 0.65 ranged damage mod, their melee was 0.7, and this was raised to 0.75. It is now 0.95 and 1.05, well above that minimum.
Note I'm not saying that all Defenders should have a 0.75 damage modifier. But I feel all Defenders should be able to BOOST their damage into the 0.75 range. Controllers and Masterminds get along just fine with only a 0.55 modifier, but that's because they are able to boost their damage, whether directly or with additional damage of pets.
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Lord Recluse in my example was an EB. L45, no less. Even so, I could not hurt him. I was on Invincible mode, so he couldn't hurt me, but his chain gun reduced my endurance to 0 in 2 shots. Since it stacks, my endurance was thus at 0 forever. Not that it mattered since he regenerated faster than I could hurt him.|
Originally Posted by Garent
EBs are soloable by any character. I do it just fine with my energy blast defender.
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If I closed to melee, I could have used Air Superiority, Jab and Sands of Mu, but then he'd be doing 1200-1500 damage with every attack (as opposed to "only" 600-800).
Now, Recluse may be considered an exception. As the most powerful AV in the game (theoretically), maybe he's supposed to be unbeatable, even as an EB. If so, then at least let me feel like a superhero by allowing me to do a little damage or survive longer than 1.3 seconds (or both).
However, the same sort of thing happens against MANY such foes (in my arc, which includes only one custom foe, it included Recluse, Scorpion, Nocturne and Ice Mistral, most of which could only be defeated if I used my veteran powers).
It's partly because the EBs are so overpowered, but also because of the disparity between damage output of the ATs. That is, a foe tough enough to challenge a Scrapper is going to be too tough for a Defender because the defender's damage is so much lower.
I'm sure some Defenders might be able to pull it off, but I stand by my assertion that everyone should have a chance, regardless of AT/power set if anyone has a chance.
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Well, I may not be the average representation of players, but I have soloed EBs with my Blasters and my Scrappers, but failed with Defenders, Controllers and Tanks.|
Originally Posted by Garent
EBs are soloable by any character. I do it just fine with my energy blast defender.
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Could be I just have not figured out how to balance the powers, slotting and tactics yet, but from the 'feel of it' on many different toons now, I would be willing to say that not all AT/combinations can beat EBs.
I am, of course, making a generalization based on my own experiences, but thats how I feel at this point in time about the game.
As far as commenting on whether thats working as intended, I would say that its not.
I agree, in a reverse way, with what some have said. Instead of saying;
"If One AT/Combination can do it, then everyone should"
I believe that if One AT/combination is 'Incapable' of doing it, then perhaps they all should be incapable."
From the begining, I have always felt that "special' Villains like AVs and EBs should require a team. This is, for me, 'part and parcel' of playing any MMO. If you make the entire spectrum of the game able to be soloed (by anyone) you have less incentive to form groups. There should be "solo content" and "team content" within the game.
"Solo" content SHOULD be solo-able by any player. Perhaps some combinations would require more effort and trial-and-error, but eventually possible.
"Team" content SHOULD NEVER be solo-able by any player. It should involve greater rewards to counter the extra difficulty.
This game actually "blurs" the line between "Solo" and "Team" more so than any other MMO that I have played (which is a fairly long list).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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This also touches on something I've often thought - that there needs to be another distiction of foes, one closer to ourselves.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Well, I may not be the average representation of players, but I have soloed EBs with my Blasters and my Scrappers, but failed with Defenders, Controllers and Tanks.
Could be I just have not figured out how to balance the powers, slotting and tactics yet, but from the 'feel of it' on many different toons now, I would be willing to say that not all AT/combinations can beat EBs. I am, of course, making a generalization based on my own experiences, but thats how I feel at this point in time about the game. As far as commenting on whether thats working as intended, I would say that its not. I agree, in a reverse way, with what some have said. Instead of saying; "If One AT/Combination can do it, then everyone should" I believe that if One AT/combination is 'Incapable' of doing it, then perhaps they all should be incapable." From the begining, I have always felt that "special' Villains like AVs and EBs should require a team. This is, for me, 'part and parcel' of playing any MMO. If you make the entire spectrum of the game able to be soloed (by anyone) you have less incentive to form groups. There should be "solo content" and "team content" within the game. "Solo" content SHOULD be solo-able by any player. Perhaps some combinations would require more effort and trial-and-error, but eventually possible. "Team" content SHOULD NEVER be solo-able by any player. It should involve greater rewards to counter the extra difficulty. This game actually "blurs" the line between "Solo" and "Team" more so than any other MMO that I have played (which is a fairly long list). |
I've always thought, to put it in comic book terms, the AVs are like Dr. Doom or Ultron. EBs, being the next step down, would be like Electro or Sandman (or most of Spiderman's foes). However, that's just not how they play.
EBs are often just slightly toned down AVs (and practically every villain in the game seems to be an AV...), and as such are still WAY beyond our own abilities. I mean, Black Scorpion was doing 1600 damage with his blows (averaging around 800) and he had almost 3000 health. I, at the same level, was doing at most around 70 (averaging around 35-40) damage and had 900 health. That's QUITE a discrepancy, and he was an EB.
This brings me to something new I've discovered. Apparently, the streakbreaker affects our foes' attacks as well as ours. That suprises me, considering they've given them each several attacks capable of one-shotting us.
Blah. I'm rambling now. Sleep apparently does have its uses...
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Hello StratoNexus,|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why should we change anything about either AT? Maybe they will become even more funner! Maybe even more people will find them appealing! Perhaps more players will feel more powerful and awesome! Who knows? Who cares? Let's just do it!
Defenders and corruptors need more hitpoints. These ATs are designed with AoE damage powers and will draw aggro. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to affect enemies, so they often need to get close to baddies. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to protect teammates, so they need to be close enough to enemies in order to keep melee allies inside the effect. It would be more fun if these ATs could utilize those powers with less fear and with more confidence in their ability to take some of that AoE splash damage and some return fire from any aggro generated by using their best AoE damage (and debuff) powers. Extra hitpoints will also ease solo play, allowing these ATs to survive the longer battles their slightly lower damage engender. Since defenders will have the lower damage, they should get scrapper level hitpoints. Corruptors, being the more offensive AT, get blaster level HPs. Speaking of damage, these ATs do too little. One of the great features of the CoH game is its fast paced battles, and defenders fall out of that area. Variety is good, but defenders are way out of range of standard CoH experience. Corruptors are moderately less so, but still fall short vs most of the enemies in game. While surviving longer battles can be done by both these ATs, in addition to needing more attacks to win a fight, most also need to use active mitigation powers (debuffs/self-heals/controls), taking even more time and endurance. The endurance consumption needed to win fights on these ATs is unacceptable. We could adjust endurance costs, but that would still leave these ATs lacking on teams (you know, the place they are supposed to shine the most). Wouldn't it be more fun if defenders were appreciated more for their attack sets? Therefore, we will move corruptors damage scale to 0.9 and defenders to 0.8. The corruptor damage cap will be lowered to 400, resluting in a negligible change at the buff cap (0.75*5=3.75, compared to 0.9*4=3.6). Defender caps will be lowered to 325, resulting in no change at the cap (0.65*4=2.6 vs 0.8*3.25=2.6). It might be wise here to lower scourge from +100% damage to +80% in order to maintain current performance vs the higher HP targets, but its not really necessary, IMO, since they are such a small part of the game anyway, albeit an important one for some aspects of the game. Neither of the above changes will have a major impact on current defender/corruptor playstyle. No one who currently loves the defender playstyle will feel a major difference. Fights will go a bit faster, and they will be slightly harder to kill, but they still will not be able to carelessly wade into enemies. Most of their mitigation will still be active, requiring attention to be payed and tough choices to be made. Current players of those ATs lose nothing (please do not gripe about the 4% reduction corruptors get at the damage cap). |
I have been playing Defenders alot lately, and just to mix things up I broke out my Main Blaster (Energy/Devices) and my main Scrapper (MA/WP), just to remind me what they could do.
I think that I finally agree with you on this suggestion.
The main issues that defenders have (as compared to playing other ATs) is;
A) Status effects
B) Kill speed is on the slow side (not necassarily a problem, just a comparison)
C) Endurance Use (even after Stamina is heavier than other ATs)
Well, more HPs doesnt do much about the three things I listed, but I agree with your assessment that Defenders (Unlike Blasters and Controllers) tend to live closer to the action and could use the extra HPs for teaming. The argument by some that certain powersets dont really need a HP boost, just means that those powersets will not notice any difference really, but sets like Empathy and Kinetics should benefit quite nicely.
As far as the increase in damage base, It WILL help in all of the 3 items I listed above.
Taking down mobs faster reduces the risk of status (especially repeated effects).
Obviously Kill speed will improve, but here is the big one for me, Endurance usage will be lessened considerably.
Killing with even 1 less blast could make a large impact on endurance issues.
The final straw that brought me over to your side occurred when reading a post about ALL the changes that have occurred AFTER Defender ratios were nerfed to 0.65 (Specifically "Enhancement Diversification" and "Global Defense Reduction"). I realized that your modest increase would certainly not bring defenders back to their hey-day of game launch, but would add quite a nice dose of "FUN" in playing them.
I realize that these 2 events hit all ATs, but I am also willing to say that Defenders (Who should be the best at defending themselves) got side-swiped by these changes.
So, Thanks for posting this idea, along with all the others who agree with it.
P.S. I also happen to agree with others regarding Defender / Tanker numbers.
I would be happy with the damage mod being returned to its original 0.75 value.
And the HPs restorred as well to their original amount.
I also still believe that a good Vigilance change would be a stacking endurance reduction triggered off our blasts.
This would further lessen the endurance issues at the same time as convincing more defenders to use their blasts.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Just to touch on the endurance issue...|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello StratoNexus,
I have been playing Defenders alot lately, and just to mix things up I broke out my Main Blaster (Energy/Devices) and my main Scrapper (MA/WP), just to remind me what they could do. I think that I finally agree with you on this suggestion. The main issues that defenders have (as compared to playing other ATs) is; A) Status effects B) Kill speed is on the slow side (not necassarily a problem, just a comparison) C) Endurance Use (even after Stamina is heavier than other ATs) Well, more HPs doesnt do much about the three things I listed, but I agree with your assessment that Defenders (Unlike Blasters and Controllers) tend to live closer to the action and could use the extra HPs for teaming. The argument by some that certain powersets dont really need a HP boost, just means that those powersets will not notice any difference really, but sets like Empathy and Kinetics should benefit quite nicely. As far as the increase in damage base, It WILL help in all of the 3 items I listed above. Taking down mobs faster reduces the risk of status (especially repeated effects). Obviously Kill speed will improve, but here is the big one for me, Endurance usage will be lessened considerably. Killing with even 1 less blast could make a large impact on endurance issues. The final straw that brought me over to your side occurred when reading a post about ALL the changes that have occurred AFTER Defender ratios were nerfed to 0.65 (Specifically "Enhancement Diversification" and "Global Defense Reduction"). I realized that your modest increase would certainly not bring defenders back to their hey-day of game launch, but would add quite a nice dose of "FUN" in playing them. I realize that these 2 events hit all ATs, but I am also willing to say that Defenders (Who should be the best at defending themselves) got side-swiped by these changes. So, Thanks for posting this idea, along with all the others who agree with it. P.S. I also happen to agree with others regarding Defender / Tanker numbers. I would be happy with the damage mod being returned to its original 0.75 value. And the HPs restorred as well to their original amount. I also still believe that a good Vigilance change would be a stacking endurance reduction triggered off our blasts. This would further lessen the endurance issues at the same time as convincing more defenders to use their blasts. |
Tonight I was playing my L32 FF Defender. He has a single EndRedx in all of his powers, and three slotted Stamina (all IOs). All his attacks have one Accuracy IO. This is usually enough to provide a 95% chance to hit (yet, according to herostats, I average around 60-80%...).
I run with four toggles (HALF as many as my Scrapper) - Tough, Weave, Dispersion Bubble and Manuevers. I'd LIKE to run Assault, too, but the endurance cost is prohibitive. As it is, I run out of endurance in EVERY fight, with EVERY minion (white conn).
That is, I see a group of three Minions. I hit them with Dispersion Bomb, then move in and blast them one at a time (since the AOEs use so much endurance). By the time I defeat one minion, I'm at a sliver of endurance, and I have to stop fighting. If I PFF, I'll be fine. If not, I'll be chewed up for several minutes while the endurance SLOWLY recovers. Doing this for every minion is VERY tedious.
I don't know which dev it is that thinks this is fun, but he and I have VERY different views on the subject.
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I'm not sure if this whole thread is an elaborate troll or if you're completely insane, but that part made me laugh anyway.
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[Refering to buffing damage from 0.65 to 0.8 - a 23% total damage increase, and HP from 1017.4 to 1338.6 - a 31.5% total mitigation increase] This is primarily a QoL change. |
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Fighting 3 minions doesn't require you to run 4 toggles. This is the core of your issue which you refuse to believe despite it being pointed out numerous times.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Just to touch on the endurance issue...
Tonight I was playing my L32 FF Defender. He has a single EndRedx in all of his powers, and three slotted Stamina (all IOs). All his attacks have one Accuracy IO. This is usually enough to provide a 95% chance to hit (yet, according to herostats, I average around 60-80%...). I run with four toggles (HALF as many as my Scrapper) - Tough, Weave, Dispersion Bubble and Manuevers. I'd LIKE to run Assault, too, but the endurance cost is prohibitive. As it is, I run out of endurance in EVERY fight, with EVERY minion (white conn). That is, I see a group of three Minions. I hit them with Dispersion Bomb, then move in and blast them one at a time (since the AOEs use so much endurance). By the time I defeat one minion, I'm at a sliver of endurance, and I have to stop fighting. If I PFF, I'll be fine. If not, I'll be chewed up for several minutes while the endurance SLOWLY recovers. Doing this for every minion is VERY tedious. I don't know which dev it is that thinks this is fun, but he and I have VERY different views on the subject. |
Turn off some toggles and your end bar will thank you.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Toggles will not drain your Endurance bar-- ATTACKS drain the endurance bar. Unless you are toggleman. So, as a defender it comes down to endurance efficiency with those attacks. And they are not very efficient at all. High end cost, low damage, piss poor inherent all add up. Probably simplest solution-- give defenders a damage boost.
And exactly why is Ultimo running 4 toggles? For survivalibility of course. Low HP and lack of being able to properly defend yourself with your own primary is a very real issue with defenders. Again, simple to solve? Maybe not, but more HP gives a defender more time to live.
Those 4 cost:
Dispersion 0.26
Maneuvers 0.195
Tough 0.1625
Weave 0.1625
each pulse every 0.5 seconds
Total 0.78/0.5 sec or 1.66 end/sec
Base recovery is 1.67 end/sec
Without slotting, just running those 4 toggles is basically using up the entire base recovery.
I'd say the point stands, those toggles are unecessary for soloing 3 even con minions, and a large portion of why Ultimo is running out of end as fast as he is.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
As far as I remember Ultimo_ already posted the same kind of concerns, and people proved he was lying about his reported numbers. He then backpedaled... and proceeded to repost the same original wrong numbers in other topics.
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Don't have the numbers here but I think most AOE start to beat single target blasts efficiency wise from 3 targets and up.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I hit them with Dispersion Bomb, then move in and blast them one at a time (since the AOEs use so much endurance). By the time I defeat one minion, I'm at a sliver of endurance, and I have to stop fighting. If I PFF, I'll be fine. If not, I'll be chewed up for several minutes while the endurance SLOWLY recovers. Doing this for every minion is VERY tedious.
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Too much end for 1 or 2, but good for 3.
Been a while I didn't check precisely, but you might want too.
Also double check what toggle you really need to take down 3 minions, as other said (even if they use less end than attacks, using a lot of toggle still adds on top of attacks).
Somewhere way back when there was a post describing how the defender secondary debuffs were appreciated at low levels. Would it be possible to have the debuffs get better as we get higher level? A 6% debuff at level 5 is sweet but not even a speedbump at level 30. An increasing debuff also would feel very defenderish (defendery?) imho. We might even slot our attacks for the debuff effects. We've been asking for more damage for about five years. I'd like it, but I don't see it coming soon.
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This is horribly misleading to say, especially since there isn't a single standard toggle cost. Tough and Weave each cost .325 end/sec. Dispersion Bubble costs .52 end.sec. Maneuvers costs .39 end/sec.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I run with four toggles (HALF as many as my Scrapper) - Tough, Weave, Dispersion Bubble and Manuevers.
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Depending on what build Ultimo is specifically using with his Scrapper, every single one of the toggles that he's running is probably going to cost less than any of the toggles that he's running on his Defender. Not to mention that his Scrapper (Claws/Regen, iirc) actually has several other reasons for vastly increased endurance sustainability (Claws/* has 25% lower base end costs, */Regen has only a single toggle that only costs .21 end/sec and Quick Recovery to make endurance even easier).
It's information like this that Ultimo is great at putting out, which is why no one really believes anything he says: he'll put out some numbers that, at first glance, look as if they might be accurate. Sometimes they even are (in only the most general terms). The problem is that they're interpreted completely and totally wrong just to make his point seem more valid. I've yet to see any of his "analysis" or "conclusions" withstand any degree of scrutiny.
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For the reasons pointed out, fighting three minions DOES often require running four toggles, but this is beside the point. Other ATs are able to fight while running toggles, and often MORE of them, and don't suffer the same problems as the Defender. However, it's not because of the toggles, it's because the attacks are producing less damage for the same endurance, WHICH I"VE SAID BEFORE. I included the information regarding the toggles because if I didn't you would accuse me of leaving things out.| Fighting 3 minions doesn't require you to run 4 toggles. |
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| As far as I remember Ultimo_ already posted the same kind of concerns, and people proved he was lying about his reported numbers. He then backpedaled... and proceeded to repost the same original wrong numbers in other topics. |
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Don't have the numbers here but I think most AOE start to beat single target blasts efficiency wise from 3 targets and up. Too much end for 1 or 2, but good for 3. Been a while I didn't check precisely, but you might want too. Also double check what toggle you really need to take down 3 minions, as other said (even if they use less end than attacks, using a lot of toggle still adds on top of attacks). |
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This is horribly misleading to say, especially since there isn't a single standard toggle cost. Tough and Weave each cost .325 end/sec. Dispersion Bubble costs .52 end.sec. Maneuvers costs .39 end/sec. Depending on what build Ultimo is specifically using with his Scrapper, every single one of the toggles that he's running is probably going to cost less than any of the toggles that he's running on his Defender. Not to mention that his Scrapper (Claws/Regen, iirc) actually has several other reasons for vastly increased endurance sustainability (Claws/* has 25% lower base end costs, */Regen has only a single toggle that only costs .21 end/sec and Quick Recovery to make endurance even easier). |
I run FOUR TOGGLES. I listed the FOUR TOGGLES. What's so misleading?
My SCrapper runs EIGHT TOGGLES. That means the Defender is running HALF AS MANY. What's misleading? Is is because I didn't list the Scrapper's toggles?
Ok, he runs Deflection, Battle Agility, Against All Odds, Tough, Weave, Manuevers, Tactics and Assault. That's EIGHT.
Running all those toggles, he runs out of endurance very fast, but is still able to defeat a single minion (though not much more than that) because he does enough damage for the exerted endurance.
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| It's information like this that Ultimo is great at putting out, which is why no one really believes anything he says: he'll put out some numbers that, at first glance, look as if they might be accurate. Sometimes they even are (in only the most general terms). The problem is that they're interpreted completely and totally wrong just to make his point seem more valid. I've yet to see any of his "analysis" or "conclusions" withstand any degree of scrutiny. |
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This is precisely it. Well said.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Toggles will not drain your Endurance bar-- ATTACKS drain the endurance bar. Unless you are toggleman. So, as a defender it comes down to endurance efficiency with those attacks. And they are not very efficient at all. High end cost, low damage, piss poor inherent all add up. Probably simplest solution-- give defenders a damage boost.
And exactly why is Ultimo running 4 toggles? For survivalibility of course. Low HP and lack of being able to properly defend yourself with your own primary is a very real issue with defenders. Again, simple to solve? Maybe not, but more HP gives a defender more time to live. |
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Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Toggles will not drain your Endurance bar-- ATTACKS drain the endurance bar. Unless you are toggleman. So, as a defender it comes down to endurance efficiency with those attacks. And they are not very efficient at all. High end cost, low damage, piss poor inherent all add up. Probably simplest solution-- give defenders a damage boost.
And exactly why is Ultimo running 4 toggles? For survivalibility of course. Low HP and lack of being able to properly defend yourself with your own primary is a very real issue with defenders. Again, simple to solve? Maybe not, but more HP gives a defender more time to live. |
I agree with this, and go one better. Using your primaries seems to be even worse than attacks. Currently I am playing an Empath and even with 2 End reduction in Healing Aura, this uses more endurance than my attacks. Yet it is my PRIMARY power.
0.75 dmg mod, 25% more HPs and rework Vigilance to be a stacking 8% global endurance savings (up to 5 times) and see how well we perform.
I no longer believe this will over-power ANY defender set.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
1. Endurance: Tankers have access to endurance management tools in, on top of my head, 3 primaries, 1 secondary and 1 epic Pool. They have significantly better damage, and generally run cheaper toggles than Defenders...which indicates their endurance difficulties are less than that of Defenders.
2. Solo: Did I mention Tankers have better damage than Defenders? They have much better survivability too (too much tbh). That makes them better soloists.
3. Team: Tankers are pretty much required in teams (esp. on hard missions which we all love to do) where as Defenders are better replaced with Controllers.
Doesn't sound like Tankers are in need of buffing the same way Defenders are does it?
I agree that Defenders have too little damage, revealed during an experience last night.
I was constructing an arc on the AE that included Lord Recluse and his Lieutenants (not all at once). While testing the mission with invincible on, I came to the astonishing realization that my Defender could NEVER defeat Lord Recluse or his minions with his own powers (in the case of Recluse, even with veteran powers I would never defeat him, though for different reasons). The issue was that my Energy Blasts simply couldn't keep up with their regeneration. If I missed at all, they recovered to full health before long, and that's without their self healing. Even using the Veteran powers it took so long to defeat them that I would have been defeated myself dozens of times over (I'll run an experiment and see how much damage I take in defeating one of them - though, because of the endurance drain of the chain gun, I'll never be able to defeat Recluse, who reduces my endurance to 0, never to rise again).
Now, this may not be the case for all Defender power sets. However, it can't be permitted for any set to be incapable of overcoming a given threat.