Posi on Abusing Mission Architect
By
2wabbits,
Posted on: 2009-05-05 13:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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A majority of players have indeed been requesting measures to be taken against farming since Beta. Measures can now be taken.
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A majority say it's broken and exploitable, so you release it anyway and fix it a month later? Would it not have been cleverer to release a fixed version it *during* the anniversary month of May, rather than just before it so that we can send the whole time saying "it's still broken, you know" while debating the upcoming first bit of competition in Champions Online?
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It's taken a while to get to the bottom of this but please, does it have this poisonous on these boards?
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Posi has thrown his toys out of his pram with his statement, and we're throwing them back (and getting some return fire, also) , we have our own prams as I'm sure you're well aware.
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I understand that many are conjecturing wildly after what Positron said but, had we decided to react more lightly than this, there would have been just as much ruckus.
We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react.
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State the parameters, halve the ruckus. Give us vague threats from across the pond and feel the heat. Give us less vague threats and we either would do the same or wouldn't take it seriously. If they can tell the player base what we're going to be on the receiving end of in specific terms, after using a feature they provided in the way we wished, then a lot of problems will be solved.
It's not your fault, Avatea, at all. You've just got a red name and therefore are our Metatron, so we have to direct everything to you. God's on the wrong side of the Atlantic, not-reading the wrong forums anyway.
Blueside Union: Starblayde (Blaster), Pax Imperia (Tanker), Pax Britannia (Defender)
Redside Union: Natasha Redshade (Stalker)
What I really want to know is what they define as abuse. For me MA was a way for me to do something different for the first 20 levels than the same old mishes again and again. I made my self a map with my favourite enemies (Hydra) and played through that. Technically its farming. I used none of the exploits, I didn't level faster, hell if anything it was slower. But I might get my character banned for giving myself content I enjoy playing?
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So why do you think Positron is coming down hard on MA abuse if there's nothing wrong with it?
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I don't think he will.
Think it'll just be a threat, the games not in a healthy enough state for a mass ban.
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I agree with you here, that's part of the reason why it's been so hilarious seeing so much nerdrage over this. Obviously a certain amount of farming and PLing is tolerated, that's been self-evident over the years since release, but the MA has been on a completely different scale.
But here's the thing, he's not talking about mass bans or hammering anyone who's PLed a few levels, he's talking about establishing the boundaries of acceptable use and setting some harsh penalties for rinsing the hell out of the MA. This was always going to happen. It's pure naivety to think it wasn't - hence the nerdrage.
Now, if Positron approaches things elegently, he'll look at why people PL and over-farm and give something back that addresses those reasons. A revamp of the first 22 levels to give new players a better introduction to the game and giving advanced starts as veteran rewards would solve a lot of problems.
But before they can do that, which will take a chunk of development time, they have to stop the MA abuse as soon as they can. Very few people are seeing it, but being able to level in a matter of hours, en-masse, with any build, and without being part of a specialised, organised group of players is extremely bad for the game. Why? Because it reduces the length of new subscriptions - simple as.
I've loved reading people banging on about Positron's ego as if pettiness is what motivates game developers. But let's get this the right way round. For us, having a list of level 50s is nothing important, in fact CoX isn't that big a deal for any of us being that it's just something we do to use up our spare time. Now for Positron and Paragon Studios, it's their livelihood, it's a roof over their heads and food in their kids' bellies. They have much more at stake in this game than any number of egocentric players with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement will ever have. So when they do things like this, it's because they're doing what they need to do in order to keep this game going, because the future of this game is more important to them than to all of us put together.
When the ragequitters have grown up a bit and garnered a few responsibilities of their own, they'll probably have a better grasp on why this is happening and why, so often in life, things "aren't fair."
While I normally just tend to ignore farmers and farming requests, I am still happy that something is being done to stop this.
Personally I do not share the DOOOOOM - crying by some in this or other threads. MA is not going to be replacing proper game development, it is just an addition and one I rather like at that.
Well done, Posi - better late than never! 
Zos
<- Please click here to find out how you can help!GLOBAL @zoser
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If the devs thought of comm officers to be an exploit they could have removed them 1 week after I14 went live and it became obvious... they didnt.
[/ QUOTE ]"The devs have not instantaneously fixed all the new bugs after every issue release. Clearly all those bugs have been intended features and not bugs at all!"
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Well that explains Oil Slick Arrow at least
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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A majority of players have indeed been requesting measures to be taken against farming since Beta. Measures can now be taken.
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I think the fact it was broken in Beta and still went live is what some people are taking an issue with when I read back through.
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Whats made me laugh is some of the anti farm posts have actualy been made by people who continually rinse the lord recluse, statesman , tf or sf for the very nice recipes,farming is farming whatever way you do it.
I personaly not normaly a farmer , admit i got caught in the hype of MA mainly cause my 1st set of tickets dropped a 90mill recipe then my 2nd set of tickets dropped the same again , but after the 1st week it all became rather boring.
Reguarding Posi post i hope comon sense prevails and like Londoner i think any punishments issued should only be taken from now , what happened at the MA these past 2 weeks was the devs fault and you cant blame players for using a overhyped system to their advantage.
Hmm and I think it's because people are being told that what they did was wrong (and knowing it) that is the issue. But hey, I am but one man.
Sure the MA was broken. The majority of things seem to be with each new release, what's the difference? Oh yes, getting from 1-50 in a day.
People had the chance to highlight things in Beta. Those that didn't go into Beta at all had the chance to highlight things as they found them 9with the Report Content button). I will hold my hands up and say that I was too distracted making shiny stuff in the MA to do it with any regularity.
In short, people chose to exploit the system to the maximum. I would guess, at best, that the Dev team are kicking themselves somewhat but then they're not going to post it on here, are they?
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Whats made me laugh is some of the anti farm posts have actualy been made by people who continually rinse the lord recluse, statesman , tf or sf for the very nice recipes,farming is farming whatever way you do it.
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I think there is a difference in playing a 2 hour task force several times in a week and getting the same rewards in about an hour by abusing the MA system. Again I would personally say that as Stryke mentioned in another post, farmers doing missions quietly and without using power levelling was something the community accepted and wasn't interfering.
The latent abuse of the MA system however, farm team spam all over the place the some of the voteganking going on really IS interfering however and I for one am happy that the Devs have taken note.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
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Please Avatea, use what ever power you to have to shut Positron up, its clear he has limited at best PR skills and he seems to nark everyone off every time he gives a statement.
Please Avatea spill coffee on his hands when he's writing these statements or something.
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Anything Posi or anyone else says or doesn't say would have the same effect. Look, before this hoopla, (almost) everyone agreed that something has to be done about farming in Atlas (and yes, blatant farming in a starting zone coupled with easy PL hurts everyone. Teaming is difficult, 50's with the knowledge of lvl 2, lag, etc.)
But, whoever announced and implemented this "something" was BOUND to catch tons of NERD RAGE!!! however they would do it (vaguely or specifically, nicely or sternly, with or without bannhammer.) from one segment of the playerbase or another.
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Whats made me laugh is some of the anti farm posts have actualy been made by people who continually rinse the lord recluse, statesman , tf or sf for the very nice recipes,farming is farming whatever way you do it.
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Hardly. The problem with the MA farming isn't that it is farming, but that it is too prevalent and much too efficent and quick. The MA farming is far more detrimental to the game than the older "traditional" types of farming.
There's farming, and then there's slash-and-burn farming.
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Whats made me laugh is some of the anti farm posts have actualy been made by people who continually rinse the lord recluse, statesman , tf or sf for the very nice recipes,farming is farming whatever way you do it.
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Hardly. The problem with the MA farming isn't that it is farming, but that it is too prevalent and much too efficent and quick. The MA farming is far more detrimental to the game than the older "traditional" types of farming.
There's farming, and then there's slash-and-burn farming.
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AH i agree the MA 1-50 in 5 hours is quite wrong,and needs to be sorted , what i dont agree with is the fact those people are acting like they have never farmed and being high an mighty.
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I'm quite pleased to note that Posi said that people "may lose benefits they have gained - leading up to and perhaps including losing access to the characters power-leveled in this fashion."
[/ QUOTE ]Mmmm... Imagine the bad publicity that will be generated if suddenly new players that had no idea what farming is and just chose Atlas as their entrance point, to begin writing in all over the Internet that their characters got blocked...
Woohoo!
God what a bunch of whiners here.. 3 days im off, look at this mess.
Cry me a freaking river and go go to CO. Good riddence.
Serious, its being dealth with, stop whining about it. Go play carebear online for a month or 2 and come back after that.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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I've loved reading people banging on about Positron's ego as if pettiness is what motivates game developers.
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Now for Positron and Paragon Studios, it's their livelihood, it's a roof over their heads and food in their kids' bellies. They have much more at stake in this game than any number of egocentric players with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement will ever have. So when they do things like this, it's because they're doing what they need to do in order to keep this game going, because the future of this game is more important to them than to all of us put together.
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If it's so important to them, why on earth does this entire, newly-expanded, team of people keep on collectively doing stupid things (TM).?
I've not been back playing this game for a particularly long time (three months or so now) but everything I've seen in statements from Positron or Issue releases has come off as half-cocked, not thought through and generally unprofessional, catered purely to the sort of headlines CoH might generate on MMORPG.com.
On a side note, every other game developer makes statements, or releases, or plain old messages. Positron makes a 'global address'. Got a superhero complex much, have we?
Blueside Union: Starblayde (Blaster), Pax Imperia (Tanker), Pax Britannia (Defender)
Redside Union: Natasha Redshade (Stalker)
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We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react.
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I think the lack of specifics combined with the fact that it would seem that rikti com officers were reported in beta as a possible exploit when used within the MA is the problem.
Taking a month to release any kind of statement on the problem is bad when that statement can be read as "If you played one of the missions we consider exploits you'll be banned" is a PR disaster of epic proportions people wont read it as "we may ban you if you leveled 5 accounts worth of characters to 50" there gonna see it as "you looked at it your banned"
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Mmmm... Imagine the bad publicity that will be generated if suddenly new players that had no idea what farming is and just chose Atlas as their entrance point, to begin writing in all over the Internet that their characters got blocked...
Woohoo!
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Bunch of new players who just got their shiny Mission Architect box. But I will admit we don't know how exactly this whole thing will work, if Posis post is taken literaly and not just meant to be a lot of barking and baring of teeth, which I think is what it is, then you might have a lot of angry people.
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Doctor Storm- Brute SS/Elec SL 50
"speed boosts someone in the face" - Cognito
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We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react.
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I think that's the problem
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Nah, the problem is that NCSoft waited too long before taking a clear and firm stance on MA farming. They should have gone on the forums a week or two ago and basically said "We consider the MA farming to be an exploit. Don't do it. We are looking into ways to shut it down, and players who continue to abuse it might have some form of punishment imposed: we haven't decided yet."
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On a side note, every other game developer makes statements, or releases, or plain old messages. Positron makes a 'global address'. Got a superhero complex much, have we?
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At least he isn't as bad as Dr Impossible, yet.
He hacks communications satellites to make his global addresses, and tends to open with "Greetings, insects!".
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We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react.
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I think that's the problem
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Nah, the problem is that NCSoft waited too long before taking a clear and firm stance on MA farming. They should have gone on the forums a week or two ago and basically said "We consider the MA farming to be an exploit. Don't do it. We are looking into ways to shut it down, and players who continue to abuse it might have some form of punishment imposed: we haven't decided yet."
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Yea i realised that i wasent very clear so have edited my post a bit
Everyone is pointing the finger at one another farmers, anti farmers shouting at each other.
We are actually all on the same side if you think about it. The onus is with the devs. Its their game and we play it. We play the content they provided. What they have provided has led to an explosion of new content, player created, some of which people like some of which people hate.
The devs are responsible whether or not they are right or wrong. Irrespective of whether you love farming, dont care or hate it THEY have introduced a devisive update which has split the community.
At least the community which can be bothered to post about it.
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Posi said "Players that have abused the reward system egregiously may lose benefits they have gained".
Some of you read that as "Any player that has farmed the MA for 10 minutes or more will have all their toons tied to the stake and burned".
Seriously, its laughable.
Players who have egregiously abused the system may lose benefits they have gained. What is your problem with this?
Ok so worst case scenario players who have got a new character from 1-50 in the time it takes to watch a couple of movies may lose that toon. What's the fuss about? Its not like you put any effort in to get that toon is it! You can hardly say you've grown attached to it can you?? Hell I bet most of you haven't even played the damn character.
See, what I think is part of the problem here and what's causing all the disagreements, is the lack of definition of the word farming and what's classed as acceptable and unnacceptable.
Here's my opinion, feel free to ignore
Unacceptable farming
Powerlvling 1-50 in 8 hours....sooo not acceptable. I appreciate there are some valid arguments for PL, people with numerous 50's already not wanting to grind back up there again after playing it all, people wanting to get a lvl 50 just for PVP etc. However, it's understandable why the devs are trying to stop this as it leads to people who barely know the game playing it badly (I've been in a pug before with a player with 8 lvl 50s, been playing for a few weeks asking what we meant by pull, hold and enhancing!)
MA Farming maps - Same as above, that's not what the devs intended when MA was concieved and they have stated that, so anyone creating a map, calling it Rikti PL Farm and filling it with nothing but comms officers is clearly something the devs will stamp down on. Again. It could be argued it's not hurting people directly, but it does indirectly, the aforemention n00b 50, the effects it has on the market prices, avaliablity of items in the market etc. This is also something the devs will be working to fix.
Acceptable Farming - Well, there's some debate here, but one that springs to mind is for badges, arguably something the devs themselves have caused by putting them in the game with such ludicrously high numbers, like in the MA or top level healing, inf and damage badges. Serious badge whor....collectors like myself sometimes have to farm a badge, although again, it's a question of how. Using the arena gladiator matches for the heal badge, or resting in missions overnight for the damage badge, these could be classed as acceptable as they don't really harm anyone in the slightest (that I can think of, others may disagree)
The shades of gray come when it's farming specifically for inf or recipes. As people have mentioned earlier, repeatedly playing TF's over and over for recipe drops is technically farming, although it's also the nature of how the game was designed. I would be the first to scream out loud if someone gets banned or characters deleted over something like that, but I don't really think the devs would do it, tbh.
What we need is some clear guidelines from the devs as to exactly what they class as unacceptable farming and what they would class as part of the game. It's like the old argument of powerlevelling vs powergaming. Standing in a mish SK'd to a 47 while they clear map after map might seem fine to some, the devs might disagree. Powergaming, things like a powerful superteam that destroys all in it's path is fine however, tha's using the game mechanics to their full potential. My 3rd 50 was from a hero superteam, I got to 50 in about 70-80 hours on her. For me, that was damn fast (coin took over 700!! damn those badge nights ) but it's nothing compared to the 8 hours and I would imagine the devs have no issue with that either.
Sadly, until the devs tell us specifics, people are going to get angry and grind those teeth, worried that their 50 that did a ocuple of levels by mistake in a MA farm map on a pug might get deleted. I said previously in the thread, I doubt that will happen and I would agree with being angry if it did, I'd feel the same!
So, come on devs....speak up, tell us some specifics and stop the bloodshed that's happening here and the warfare that's happening in the US!
We built this city on Rock and Roll!
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Irrespective of whether you love farming, dont care or hate it THEY have introduced a devisive update which has split the community.
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Obviously I can only speak for myself here, but I think that if there really is a split, it is not caused by "divisive" content (MA) but by a few people in the community treating a simple matter of adjusting the game balance like a personal insult.
I am old enough (in CoH-terms) to remember for example the time when the community was "divided" because of the tanker-nerf "made tanks weak to the point where they could no longer function".
Agreed, the decisive statement from NCSOFT was overdue and also they could have foreseen the PR-fallout of first letting the farmers be and then coming out with a statement like this.
But I still maintain that on the whole the MA in itself was a great idea, probably the best in years. The difficulties coming with this large content upgrade will hurt us for a while longer, but eventually the hysteria will die down and we will go back to normal.
I am convinced that most of us will still be here in 1, 3 and even 5 years - I simply trust Posi's crowd to do the right thing eventually.
Just my few cents, only time will tell ...
Zoser
<- Please click here to find out how you can help!GLOBAL @zoser
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Yay! I knew Posi would do something like that. In my opinion players was using an exploit and this is enough in my eye to account ban.
So who's up for a sewer run, now?