Posi on Abusing Mission Architect
By
2wabbits,
Posted on: 2009-05-05 13:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Read more carefully.
The first sentence of the extract from the I14 patch notes is about banning missions containing 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages' - that could cover some farming missions (although I've asked before for definitions of terms which haven't been provided).
The second sentence mentions that players/authors advertising such exploitable missions may be banned from MA or have their game account closed. The second sentence even explicitly states advertising through the Mission Architect System.
So:
Farms providing great returns may be considered to contain 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages'.
If so then the authors may have their game account closed for publishing them (i.e. for advertising them through MA by making them available in the search browser).
I'd say that that pretty much mentions banning people for farming if farming is considered to use 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages'.
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Says ABSOLUTELY nothing about people who NEVEr made farm missions but just joined them.
It only cover people CREATINg farm missions and not even that, since farming wasnt an exploit before positrons post.
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More or less true.
Farming was an exploit before Positron's post if it was deemed by the rednames to be an exploit. If some farms were using the MA in ways not envisaged by the devs to gain greater rewards (a statistical advantage) then they may be considered an exploit. All Posi has done is maybe make it clearer that the farming enabled by the MA falls into the exploitative zone.
According to the patchnotes you could possibly just join a farm and not be doing anything explicitly declared as wrong.
However anyone recruiting people for a farm which is deemed to provide 'unintended statistical advantages' could be said to be advertising it and so will have broken the rules laid down in the patch notes.
And anyone mentioning how easy it is to level on the forums/in-game without putting a very definite negative-spin on it could possibly be guilty of advertising the practice...
And anyone giving an exploitative arc a positive rating could be said to be advertising it.
But then, all I pointed out was that you're claim that the patch notes did not mention farming nor did they mention account bans was untrue.
BTW it's not very important what is/isn't to be punished until we know whether the devs are going to punish people and how. Posi's post was a shot across the bows that leaves pretty drastic measures open as a course of action available to the devs if anyone is farming in an unacceptable way.
Sure they might ban every account that's ever managed a post 20 level in less than 1 mission. But until I see them doing that I'd consider it very unlikely. But the post makes it clear that they can. I'd guess that most people getting past a sticking point or even getting new characters to SOs would be pretty much unaffected.
So stop doing anything that you think is taking the mickey out of the system and you'll probably be more-or-less ok unless you've been hammering the MA farms like mad. And if you have been doing this, then did you really think you'd get any sympathy if the devs decide to address the situation?
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
I think the thing that a lot of people are missing here is that as far as the arcs are concerned, the devs are operating on a "3 strikes and you're out" basis.
They have not once said that they'll ban each and every person who farmed something using MA.
What they have said is that they have the option to remove rewards (badges, XP, Inf, Prestige, tickets) from people they believe have abused the system (and believe me, they can tell who has played what mission, how long they were in it for, and what rewards they got for it).
They have also said that they may introduce the banhammer on people who have taken it a step too far.
I'll stand up and admit that I took a look at a couple of farming missions. One was a lot of fun, actually, and I didn't report that one. If the devs remove the inf/tickets I gained from that mission, that's okay by me. The other mission was boring as all hell, and I wouldn't touch it again with a barge pole, and I don't care if they strip me of the badges I gained in it, either.
The point is that if someone bought the game just after I14 and now has an account full of level 50 toons, how can anyone view that as anything other than a laughable state of affairs?
And it is. It's laughable.
Yes, the developers made an error. They are quite within their rights to take corrective action on that error.
Sure, the degree of corrective action can be debated, but Positron has gone on record as saying that the developers are now operating on a "zero tolerance" approach to abuses of the system.
They have not said that they will come down like the wrath of the Almighty on everyone who has farmed in MA. Frankly, they'd be foolish to even try. They are holding the ultimate threat over our heads by saying "play nice, boys and girls, or we'll ban your account. Use the MA for its intended purpose, which is to tell stories, not as a PLing tool to level up faster than ever before."
I suspect that there will be the following procedures followed (or something a lot like them):
1) Farming arcs useable for PLing will be locked out. 3 strikes and you're out.
2) Anyone whose sole or primary activity since I14 has been using those or any other arcs to PL their own or any other toons will get a slap on the wrist. Perhaps a short ban.
3) Anyone who used the locked out farming arcs to gain things may lose them (though if, as Posi says, some badges are simply being removed from the game, it's far more likely that the devs will take no further steps beyond that). There may also be removal of some tickets/Inf/Prestige.
4) Anyone who from now on creates or utilises an arc for PLing purposes, outside the rates at which characters could level in the game prior to I14 will, on the first offence, have the character locked for a predetermined period of time. On a second offence will have the character deleted. On a third offence will be banned.
At every step of the way Customer Services will be contactable, and appeals may be made.
It is far easier for them to take harsh action in the first instance, and then relax their decision later, and that is the route they should take.
Yes, they should have done things differently with MA. I don't disagree with that at all. But this is simply corrective action, to put the game back to where it is meant to be.
To anyone saying that the developers should not remove rewards already gained, though, here's a little example my darling wife came up with:
"The Great Train Robbers should not have a legal requirement to return the stolen gold". That's what you're saying. You're saying that because the security wasn't as tight as it should have been, anyone who took advantage of that fact has a right to what they gained as a result. And that, my dear friends, is utter bunkum. Even if the devs knew there were huge holes in Architect, that does not give anyone the "right" to take advantage of those holes. That's the definition of an exploit. It's like saying that the devs don't have a right to ban people for things they did in the past... I remember the old Arena Confuse bug far too well to feel comfortable with that stance. Several toons (including my main, none of whom were higher than L38) got Inferno'd by a L50 Fire Blaster, who subsequently got banned (short term, I believe) for griefing. But by the time the punishment hit the player, it was something he had done, not something he was doing... does that mean he has no responsibility and the devs have no right to ban him?
Of course they do. This is exactly the same policy - the right to punish players for actions they have taken in the past.
If you don't like it... you are always free to take your business elsewhere.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Read more carefully.
The first sentence of the extract from the I14 patch notes is about banning missions containing 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages' - that could cover some farming missions (although I've asked before for definitions of terms which haven't been provided).
The second sentence mentions that players/authors advertising such exploitable missions may be banned from MA or have their game account closed. The second sentence even explicitly states advertising through the Mission Architect System.
So:
Farms providing great returns may be considered to contain 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages'.
If so then the authors may have their game account closed for publishing them (i.e. for advertising them through MA by making them available in the search browser).
I'd say that that pretty much mentions banning people for farming if farming is considered to use 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages'.
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Says ABSOLUTELY nothing about people who NEVEr made farm missions but just joined them.
It only cover people CREATINg farm missions and not even that, since farming wasnt an exploit before positrons post.
[/ QUOTE ]
More or less true.
Farming was an exploit before Positron's post if it was deemed by the rednames to be an exploit. If some farms were using the MA in ways not envisaged by the devs to gain greater rewards (a statistical advantage) then they may be considered an exploit. All Posi has done is maybe make it clearer that the farming enabled by the MA falls into the exploitative zone.
According to the patchnotes you could possibly just join a farm and not be doing anything explicitly declared as wrong.
However anyone recruiting people for a farm which is deemed to provide 'unintended statistical advantages' could be said to be advertising it and so will have broken the rules laid down in the patch notes.
And anyone mentioning how easy it is to level on the forums/in-game without putting a very definite negative-spin on it could possibly be guilty of advertising the practice...
And anyone giving an exploitative arc a positive rating could be said to be advertising it.
But then, all I pointed out was that you're claim that the patch notes did not mention farming nor did they mention account bans was untrue.
BTW it's not very important what is/isn't to be punished until we know whether the devs are going to punish people and how. Posi's post was a shot across the bows that leaves pretty drastic measures open as a course of action available to the devs if anyone is farming in an unacceptable way.
Sure they might ban every account that's ever managed a post 20 level in less than 1 mission. But until I see them doing that I'd consider it very unlikely. But the post makes it clear that they can. I'd guess that most people getting past a sticking point or even getting new characters to SOs would be pretty much unaffected.
So stop doing anything that you think is taking the mickey out of the system and you'll probably be more-or-less ok unless you've been hammering the MA farms like mad. And if you have been doing this, then did you really think you'd get any sympathy if the devs decide to address the situation?
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Thats another well worded post JD.
And i agree that whatever action he thinks needs to be taken is all good.
But lets have it right, now is not the best time to be ricing off yet another group of players.
Most of the anti farm lobby would be quite happy to see it end, without resorting to back dated punishments, so lets hope Posi just leaves it short of doing that.
Then everyone's happy... ish.
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"The Great Train Robbers should not have a legal requirement to return the stolen gold". That's what you're saying. You're saying that because the security wasn't as tight as it should have been, anyone who took advantage of that fact has a right to what they gained as a result. And that, my dear friends, is utter bunkum. Even if the devs knew there were huge holes in Architect, that does not give anyone the "right" to take advantage of those holes. That's the definition of an exploit. It's like saying that the devs don't have a right to ban people for things they did in the past... I remember the old Arena Confuse bug far too well to feel comfortable with that stance. Several toons (including my main, none of whom were higher than L38) got Inferno'd by a L50 Fire Blaster, who subsequently got banned (short term, I believe) for griefing. But by the time the punishment hit the player, it was something he had done, not something he was doing... does that mean he has no responsibility and the devs have no right to ban him?
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See all these real world analogy's?
Load of [censored].
Because this is a game, not real life thefts/frauds/deceptions, its a game that can do without losing anymore players.
Stop the problem and leave it at that, dont start up with all the threats, it dont work, dont keep GIVING people a reason to leave.
Okay, screw the real-world analogies, then.
Devs introduced code that allows someone to be Confused in the Arena, leave the Arena and then attack other characters outside the Arena as if PvP were active in zones.
In other words - the devs made a mistake.
Do Customer Services have a right to ban a player who takes advantage of that mistake, knowing full well that the developers did not intend that activity with their code?
Everyone who is arguing with Posi's announcement is saying "No!" to that question.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Again farming comm officers is NOT an exploit.
I wrote several petitions in beta how easy those mobs can be farmed for xp.....they knew it.
If the devs thought of comm officers to be an exploit they could have removed them 1 week after I14 went live and it became obvious... they didnt.
But they did remove other mobs like prisoners in one day without much trouble.
They knew it, they could have removed the comm officers from MA in one day... they didnt.. so they have no right to blame players now.
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God.mmit! You're my hero, my idol! I think I love you, but not in - that - way! 
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Soooo if i understand correctly.
You see a wallet on the table next to you. You tell the person whoms wallet it is, that a thief could grab it. He replies politely but the wallet stay on the table. It ends when you steal the wallet from the table and run away.
After all you did WARN him that there are thieves and that they could steal his wallet right?
So that means that you are NOT a thief right?
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One simple response: Comparison invalid: Useless!
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Wrong
Exploiting is illegal (in this game)
Stealing is illegal
stealing after warning is illegal
exploiting after warning is illegal
Comparison is very valid.
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Just read this post (and not very many others so I dunno if this has already been put to rest or whatever), but the analagy is in fact incorrect. A more apt analagy would be a man sees an apple tree sporting many apples in a public park with people taking some at random points during the day, when he finds a policeman he asks him if it's illegal to take apples from the tree, when the response is "no" he goes back to the tree and takes a few. It's not a perfect analagy and that's because thievery is a very different 'crime' to abusing an exploit, I did the best with what was given lol.
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Sorry for the piramid thing, but i think you need to read the OP post to.
I think that you make a mistake here. When we use your analogy the story would be:
A man sees an apple in a public park. He notices it is full apples and that it is easy to take one of these apples. He knows that that is wrong so he warns a police officer. The police officer says thank you for the warning. Then when the park opens he sees that the apples are still hanging there and decides to steal one.
It might be that he saw others stealing it first. But that is not relevant.
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Actually it's "I'll let you know if it's deemed wrong". And pyramids are world wonders y0
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
lol i think everyone needs to stop asuming that Posi will ban us all. hes not comfirmed that his intended prospects will be implemented. he merely posted he will achieve in his goal to stop anymore farming of MA an an recurrent offenders will be puished somehow.
this thread as esculated beyond belief an as usual everyone is asuming the worst.
MA farming has to end its ended any reason to leave Atlas or Cap lmao.
but normal farming in PI etc helps us all with more purples an other rare items an the devs know this.
But MA has taken the [censored] with everyone levelling so fast an no common or purple recipes being dropped.
i hope posi halfs the XP or somthing in MA as there has to be a negative to MA or theres no point with normal missions.
AN at the end of the day the devs cocked up, but you cant change the past. an they are implementing a fix now better late than never. you say its too late but you complain when they make changes without thought an u complain when they take there time.
devs are always enermies in MMO they have a tough job keeping so many different groups happy.
if you thinks the devs are failing you go try CO or DCO but when they dont forfill what the media has hyped them to be. dont come crying back....
also stop asuming the games dieing its not, an your not helping it by crisistising it. you say your a beta tester 52monther yet you claim the game aint proforming controdiction or what.....
this needs locking.
*Disclaimer this isnt aimed at anyone inperticular but as a whole to the keyboard warriors out there*
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
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*Disclaimer this isnt aimed at anyone inperticular but as a whole to the keyboard warriors out there*
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RAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
If you think this thread is bad you should read the one the US: it was impossible to finish if you actually tried to read the whole thing as the vitriol and scorn just kept piling up on new pages at the end.
This thread's been incredibly civilised Tbh, and I've been reading it avidly.
As for my opinion....meh you cant have it, the point is moot in my eyes as, from what I can glean of the announcement, I wont be effected....wow that sounds stupendously arrogant 
go me....*runs*
I don't wanna save my soul now,
I just wanna lose control,
And even if it takes a lifetime, to learn:
I'll learn!
lmao i got to page 25 i think an gave up i comented on what i heard previous.
meh im bored of venting it wont pay off an am supporting the devs idea atm so ill just wait
@Effy
Effy On Hot Sauce Fire/Cold Corr
Effy On Hot Chilli Fire/Dark Corr
Effy On Heat FM/SD Before FoTM
Effy Unleashed DP/EN Blaster 1st 50 @ Union
Here's the South Park thing Damz..... Lemme see what you come up with
Linky
CoH PvP SG = SuperUnion - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
CoV PvP VG = Disruption - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
Global = @Rent & @Rent.
Playgroup are all **** - Global Handle
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Okay, screw the real-world analogies, then.
Devs introduced code that allows someone to be Confused in the Arena, leave the Arena and then attack other characters outside the Arena as if PvP were active in zones.
In other words - the devs made a mistake.
Do Customer Services have a right to ban a player who takes advantage of that mistake, knowing full well that the developers did not intend that activity with their code?
Everyone who is arguing with Posi's announcement is saying "No!" to that question.
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You can screw confusion comparison as well...
When I PL'ing one of my toon, I don't hurt anyone, I'm not altering anyone's game experience...
Posi wants to take corrective action, I get that, what I don't get is the retroactive punishment...
Mistakes were made, Devs, and you were warned, don't put the blame on us, we're customers, not criminals !
Just my 2 inf...
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Here's the South Park thing Damz..... Lemme see what you come up with
Linky
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hehe cheers love it already!
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Here's the South Park thing Damz..... Lemme see what you come up with
Linky
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hehe cheers love it already!
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I tried it, but it's hard to get a good mouth or set of eyes
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If you think this thread is bad you should read the one the US: it was impossible to finish if you actually tried to read the whole thing as the vitriol and scorn just kept piling up on new pages at the end.
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Berzerker nerdrage, mayhap?
I think we need to sit tight and find out exactly how many Doom Kittens are unleashed into the system, against whom, and why, before we do/say anything rash.
There is going to be a bit of Hammer Of Justice action, but we need to see whether it's used sparingly on the "worst" farmers or full on Gotterdammerung Sturm-und-Drang stuff on everyone who may have sinned in thought, word, or deed. Laying down the law is fine and occasionally necessary: how you apply it is what marks out good mods.
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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I tried it, but it's hard to get a good mouth or set of eyes
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No animated hair either 
CoH PvP SG = SuperUnion - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
CoV PvP VG = Disruption - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
Global = @Rent & @Rent.
Playgroup are all **** - Global Handle
LOL nice one Damz. Looks better than mine..... It's blurry
CoH PvP SG = SuperUnion - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
CoV PvP VG = Disruption - Co-Leader - Union/Freedom
Global = @Rent & @Rent.
Playgroup are all **** - Global Handle
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If you think this thread is bad you should read the one the US: it was impossible to finish if you actually tried to read the whole thing as the vitriol and scorn just kept piling up on new pages at the end.
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Berzerker nerdrage, mayhap?
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One of them was getting very angry at Positron
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The fact is positron is ruining the game. WHAT CAN BE FARMED, WILL BE FARMED. This will NEVER change.
Positron is only harming the majority by doing this, and NO, before you ask i did NOT make a RCM farm, and i have NOT powere levelled any toons 1-50 in a dy.
I'm a completely legit player who's just seeing the bad side of everything posi is doing to take out a minority.
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The fact is positron is ruining the game.
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I think he and the others maybe think excessive farming is doing that
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The "fact*" is positron is ruining the game. WHAT CAN BE FARMED, WILL BE FARMED. This will NEVER change.
Positron is only harming the majority by doing this, and NO, before you ask i did NOT make a RCM farm, and i have NOT powere levelled any toons 1-50 in a dy.
I'm a completely legit player who's just seeing the bad side of everything posi is doing to take out a minority.
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All Posi's done so far is make a Position Statement. He hasn't (as far as anyone has said so far) actually deleted accounts or characters.
Saying "Stop it", and warning of punishments is harming nobody except those with thin skins and guilty consciences.
(*fact? Really? You must use a different dictionary to me . )
�How do I like my MMOs? I like them the way Paragon Studios used to make them.� - a fitting tribute from kiasa.org
EU, Union mostly.
okies this is how i see it
dev brought in ED caused choas ... but we all dealt with it (some left)
i13 pvp changed (a lot left)
i14 pvp is more borked than ever and now we have WE dont give a [censored] about the ppl in the game we just care about our ego and [censored] the rest of you (even more leave)
i15 announcement is a joke oh well done matt you arrogant [censored]
Your PR is just about as good as your willingness to answer very relevant question when asked... ur a coward and a [censored] team lead
tbh when co doesw come out i'll be glad to have jack there ;east he can admit his mistakes and isnt scared to backtrack to sort things out.
i will be letting my subs run out mainly becoz the devs continue to spoiul what was a very good homely game.
and nor do i care if u dont care if i do leave.
this is to GG sthu with ur stupid inane petty one liners and go get yourself a [censored] life or at least a non Forum/Game life
Right i bever cared for PL or such but i have nothing that agaist it.... Posi has over stepped the mark threatening to close game accounts becoz they dont like it
Im sorry but devs with their heads that far up their [censored] = disaster incomming.
and the comment that someone made about Posi being similar to bush.... yes i can see the silimlarities but tbh i would side with bush all the time. least with bush you know whats coming and also he make you laugh in the good way Psoi just makes you go HA and then sigh
Neway im off to play GW for a couple of mnths i'll be on time to time but only to vontact friends about CO and DCUO
Saphi Signing out (for now)
PS GG i WILL NOT be BACK in an issue or 2 or how many other issue there may or may not be
P.P.S No One will get my gear
Is not going to remain VIP after Jan 14th 2012, but may remain an active Premium account holder.
See some of you guys/gals in other/new MMOs Soon(tm)
N.B. If you are going to do smt, please do it or GTFO and STFU nab
I think some people need to use perspective here.
Both farming and Pl'ing have been going on for years. Yes the devs have tried to reduce the farms by tweaking certain missions and tinkering with the game mechanics, but that's it really.
Power levelling hasn't been touched by the devs, although they must certainly be aware of it.
The issue here is that this is MA we're talking about. Mission Architect - the new shiny aspect of the game that is intended as a showpiece part of the game.
Hell, it even has a whole issue just for it.
The devs perception of current events is that farming and Pl'ing - whilst using MA - is the problem. Not farming and PL in general.
Both of those activities normally took place well away from new players, or at least the majority of newer players. In order to get on a farm team, or get power levelled you had to ask/plead/beg, or know someone that was doing it.
The thing is I don't know what else the devs expected would happen? You put MA into starter zones, and it's just asking for trouble IMHO.
The cat's well and truly out of the bag now for this game. I think people will continue to use MA as an enhanced levelling medium - far more than they will for purely creative purposes.
They will keep doing this until MA gets nerfed to the point where it's not viable for levelling purposes any more.
It should never have come to this. The current issues were reported in testing and it still came out unchanged.
You can ditch the real world analogies in this situation.
If the game is damaged irreversibly by this, then the devs will have no one but themselves to blame.
In fact rather than suspend accounts or ban players, they should perhaps be looking within instead and taking action against whoever it was that made the bad decision in releasing MA in the form that it was.
Proud member of FOXBASE ALPHA and coalition associates.
Hero 50's - 25
Villain 50's - 1
oh i fogot one more thing ..... Posi/
Castle u only have yourseleves to blame.
What u have done over the last couple of issues is complete and utter BULLSCRAP u arrogant [censored]
Is not going to remain VIP after Jan 14th 2012, but may remain an active Premium account holder.
See some of you guys/gals in other/new MMOs Soon(tm)
N.B. If you are going to do smt, please do it or GTFO and STFU nab
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Read more carefully.
The first sentence of the extract from the I14 patch notes is about banning missions containing 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages' - that could cover some farming missions (although I've asked before for definitions of terms which haven't been provided).
The second sentence mentions that players/authors advertising such exploitable missions may be banned from MA or have their game account closed. The second sentence even explicitly states advertising through the Mission Architect System.
So:
Farms providing great returns may be considered to contain 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages'.
If so then the authors may have their game account closed for publishing them (i.e. for advertising them through MA by making them available in the search browser).
I'd say that that pretty much mentions banning people for farming if farming is considered to use 'exploits that provide unintended statistical advantages'.
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Says ABSOLUTELY nothing about people who NEVEr made farm missions but just joined them.
It only cover people CREATINg farm missions and not even that, since farming wasnt an exploit before positrons post.
If "farming" accounts were banned prolly 70% of all EU accounts must be closed since almost everyone "farmed" either inf, recipes, or pl their toons with the sk system in the "normal" farm mission once in a while.
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And 90%* of statistics are pulled out of the poster's a** to further their own position.
(*This 90% was pulled out of my a** to further my own position!)
�How do I like my MMOs? I like them the way Paragon Studios used to make them.� - a fitting tribute from kiasa.org
EU, Union mostly.