Am I really the only one

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If it were the case that there was a huge unified outcry and everyone hated the Heavies, then you'd have a point. But we don't. And the only other reason they'd need to be removed would be if they really were instant-win... but they're not, as those of us who actually spend a lot of time in RV - as opposed to just complaining about it from a safe distance - well know.

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Are you saying that there hasnt been an outcry against RV grinding? I thought there has been couple heated threads..

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To the best of my knowledge, there have been two threads recently about the Heavies, both of which you started. And yes, they were heated, which is precisely my point - if everyone agreed, and there was unified hatred of Heavies and RV, then it wouldn't get heated. We'd all agree, and then perhaps it would make sense to say things need to change.

The thing is, no matter what is done with any of the PvP zones, some people will like it, and some won't. I don't really see an overwhelming outcry about this issue - for everyone on here who says the Heavies are too strong, someone comes and says they like them. For everyone who hates the fact that people use RV to farm, there's someone who loves the fact they can do just that... or has fun chasing the farmers around.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something to entice more players, but I know how well the zone works when it's more full as it is. Getting rid of the Heavies won't help, it'll just make it dull. It needs a better reward system like Siren's, where there's a reason to complete the objectives. The 100 Prestige per player kill when your side has won is nice, but nothing much - I can get more killing mobs for the same amount of time. The mini-heavy temp power is nice, but you can only have one at a time. Pull in more people and give them more reason to complete the objectives, and the heavies - and hours of farming - would become a non-issue.

Seriously no; (And a healbot is someone who's there purely to heal you; as if they're a robot)

I'm simply saying that having a limited amount of +4 minions is detrimental to the player vs player aspect of the game; and that the minions are the only way for some people to complete the main objective; so there's a constant resources battle between team-mates rather than enemies.

Just because I disagree or agree doesn't make me open to other arguments; it's just that I've tried, or don't wish to try, most of the ones stated so far.

Both the suggestions of having timed or unbuffable heavies would make it workable (albeit with some minor problems) but it's almost certainly not technically possible.

The GP's give life to some of the weaker AT's; but make some of the stronger AT's close to invincible without certain power choices; choices that aren't realistically available to certain AT's.

Most of what I 'claim' has been backed up in evidence; whilst those that defend the GP's/Heavies have just said "Well I like them and my AT can kill them if used against me"; that's really not a blessing; just a non-curse.

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Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something to entice more players, but I know how well the zone works when it's more full as it is. Getting rid of the Heavies won't help, it'll just make it dull. It needs a better reward system like Siren's, where there's a reason to complete the objectives. The 100 Prestige per player kill when your side has won is nice, but nothing much - I can get more killing mobs for the same amount of time. The mini-heavy temp power is nice, but you can only have one at a time. Pull in more people and give them more reason to complete the objectives, and the heavies - and hours of farming - would become a non-issue.

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And this is where we agree. But people won't go into RV if they just get trounced.

All 4 PVP zones are used primarily by farmers atm.;and are often empty when I go in.

So... How about lowering the environment level and bolstering the player level; which is where Hammerfall and I agree.

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Most of what I 'claim' has been backed up in evidence

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It is?

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All 4 PVP zones are used primarily by farmers atm.

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They are?

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Most of what I 'claim' has been backed up in evidence

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It is?


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Yes, I've done it.

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All 4 PVP zones are used primarily by farmers atm.

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Most people go into the zones for the rewards. You head to most zones and there's only ever a few people there. The only ones that announce they're heading to the zones are usually going for the rewards.

Shivans, Stealth Suits, Nukes etc. are all 'needed' for specific GM's etc. or there's people going for badges; the only time I've ever managed to get a 'good' battle going is in Siren's; and that's after doing broadcasts for people to come.

So...yep, in my experience; that's what happens. And if it's mine, it's quite likely to be a lot of others.

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Most of what I 'claim' has been backed up in evidence

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It is?


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Yes, I've done it.


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Might need more than one person to back it up

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To the best of my knowledge, there have been two threads recently about the Heavies, both of which you started. And yes, they were heated, which is precisely my point - if everyone agreed, and there was unified hatred of Heavies and RV, then it wouldn't get heated. We'd all agree, and then perhaps it would make sense to say things need to change.

The thing is, no matter what is done with any of the PvP zones, some people will like it, and some won't. I don't really see an overwhelming outcry about this issue - for everyone on here who says the Heavies are too strong, someone comes and says they like them. For everyone who hates the fact that people use RV to farm, there's someone who loves the fact they can do just that... or has fun chasing the farmers around.

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a.) I said 'grinding'. There has been several "why dont people want to fight in pvp zones" threads.

b.) obviously not everyone agreed to heavies being harmless if there was arguing done by someone else than me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

BB and warburg: the minigame rewards are used mainly for PVP (base raids) while the mingames are pve. This is ok.

Sirens call: minigame reward is PvE mainly, but it is gathered by engaging in PVP. This is good.

RV: rewards exist solely for PvE with most things done so that the grinders getting those rewards would have to do as little PvP as possible. Obviously somethings not right here.

The most PvP (on Union) happens in Warburg (over 20 players there the other night) and Siren's Call. The only thing I farm in Siren's Call is bounty for the SOs.

Bloody Bay isn't just for Shivans as when ever I've been there, there has been (what seems to me) new PvPers trying to fight each other.

Recluses Victory is probably the least visited because the least amount of people have a level 40-50. Anyone feel like going back through the thread to find out how many people don't like Heavies? I would but I have to go to work now.

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(And a healbot is someone who's there purely to heal you; as if they're a robot)

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Protip: in PvP, buffing toons do a lot of buffing.

Or, as Cel put it: "Empaths heal and buff a lot, that's okay and normal." It's probably a safe bet to assume that if someone has levelled an Empath - or any other buffing toon - up to that level, that they enjoy that style of play and won't be averse to being asked to play like that in a PvP zone, much like I doubt they'd be taken aback to being asked to play like that in a PvE zone.

If you're both doing your jobs right, there shouldn't be much healing going on.

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I'm simply saying that having a limited amount of +4 minions is detrimental to the player vs player aspect of the game; and that the minions are the only way for some people to complete the main objective; so there's a constant resources battle between team-mates rather than enemies.

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You don't need the Heavies in order to complete the objectives of the zone, it just makes it an awful lot quicker. Most characters will not be able to complete the objectives solo, that much is true (although I've done it with my MM and my Corr, just to prove a point) but you can easily work through the neutral turrets on a 4-man team. As soon as the turrets gain a faction they're even easier to take out, of course.

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Just because I disagree or agree doesn't make me open to other arguments; it's just that I've tried, or don't wish to try, most of the ones stated so far.

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I can only suggest you improve your skills then, because I see a hell of a lot of people nearly everyday in RV who don't seem to have your problem with dealing with Heavies, Turrets, or other players.

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The GP's give life to some of the weaker AT's; but make some of the stronger AT's close to invincible without certain power choices; choices that aren't realistically available to certain AT's.

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Heavies make no-one invincible, and no-one can make Heavies invincible. I can say this with complete assuredness because everyone I have come across in PvP with a Heavy (buffed or otherwise), I have beaten. In turn I have also been defeated whilst in control of a Heavy (buffed or otherwise). To boot, I don't really have any specialised PvP choices in the majority of my builds.

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Most of what I 'claim' has been backed up in evidence; whilst those that defend the GP's/Heavies have just said "Well I like them and my AT can kill them if used against me"; that's really not a blessing; just a non-curse.

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Most of what you have said has been backed up in your own opinion, not by evidence - don't try to fudge the two around me Weasel, you know I'll just jump on it. The reason you've seen so many people telling you that Heavies are easily defeatable is because you've been sat here with your fingers in your ears going "Heavies can't be beaten! Heavies are overpowered!" We're just telling you that they can, and they're not.

If you really don't like RV for post-40 PvP, you can always use the /arena channel to find people who will join you in the arena. Before you attempt to throw cold water over that, someone did precisely that yesterday and I joined them for a couple of matches in Pocket D.

I think the one thing we can agree on is that the reward system in RV needs to reward PvP and conflict, rather than rewarding PvE and peacemaking. That is entirely independent of the existence of Heavies, however.

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a.) I said 'grinding'. There has been several "why dont people want to fight in pvp zones" threads.

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And the most frequent reply to that is "badges", not "zomgheaviesrtehpwn " - which is what you started this thread with.

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b.) obviously not everyone agreed to heavies being harmless if there was arguing done by someone else than me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

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Okay, there's you and Weasel arguing against them. Does that give you the warm fuzzies?

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BB and warburg: the minigame rewards are used mainly for PVP (base raids) while the mingames are pve. This is ok.

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They're mostly used to solo AVs or do the RSF with, from my understanding of it - Baseraid purposes come way down the scale.

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Sirens call: minigame reward is PvE mainly, but it is gathered by engaging in PVP. This is good.

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Agreed, Sirens Call has got it right. I'd love to have a bounty system in RV that works along similar lines - maybe having a hitlist of (one to five?) people whereby the order isn't random, but based along the lines how many turrets have been taken without a kill, and having a bounty bonus based on that; that is, the more turrets you take, the higher your notoriety and bounty becomes.

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RV: rewards exist solely for PvE with most things done so that the grinders getting those rewards would have to do as little PvP as possible. Obviously somethings not right here.

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Agreed - but as I stated to Weasel, that has nothing to do with Heavies and nothing to do with your OP. I'm happy to switch topic to that though, if you want.

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The most PvP (on Union) happens in Warburg (over 20 players there the other night)

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And not a one of them moved away from nub beach and the haven of the ship. There's an entire zone out there, I'm not sure if most heroes are aware of this.

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Recluses Victory is probably the least visited because the least amount of people have a level 40-50.

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This is possibly also a factor - or it's also possibly because although people may have a 50, it's not one that works particularly well in PvP. I'd go so far as to say that most people's first character isn't one that works particularly well in PvP - which, if you're like me, were created without PvP being in the game, even. Hell, most people's first character might not even work particularly well in PvE necessarily. Sirens Call catches a lot of people interested in PvP, or interested in seeing how a new character fares in PvP, in addition to having ([/i]IMO[/i]) the best reward system of all the zones. RV has a poor reward system, and the lowest potential population able to access it - as such, it can be easily exploited by people for the PvE rewards whilst facing little of the PvP risks. (But I do my part to remind them of those risks. )

I'm entirely behind revamping the RV reward system, and if that means changing the dynamics of the zone and Heavies as a consequence of that - so be it.
I do not believe, however, that Heavies are overpowered, nor that they discourage PvP, nor that they require standalone changes in the likely event that the zone is to remain as it is.

Personally I think Rv was designed with large teams in mind. If you think of like that then area could become IMO the best PvP area. Just think teams from either side batteling out for control. In that sense the havies are just another thing to take down to take control of the area. Lets face it, they aint anywhere close to the AVs that spawn. I think for RV to work well as a PvP area both villains and heroes need to have organised a nite to go in and PvP but with an objective.

I haven't read the entire thread as it is fairly long now, but it seems to me that most people are missing the point and potential of RV!

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I haven't read the entire thread as it is fairly long now, but it seems to me that most people are missing the point and potential of RV!

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Yeah. Anyone remember how much fun the rv test was? When they had about 3 or 4 instances of the zones and instant level 40's?

I agree about large teams in RV. The more people the better. Unfortunatly when this has happened everyone clumps together instead of spreading out. Ideally there would be several battles between the two sides going on. 3 teams with a heavy each and looking after 2 pillboxes each. Then same again for villains.

Thats exactly what I was thinking of!

Wonder if its possible to organise though?

I dont mind the heavies, they are easy to break or avoid. Personaly I like to have them around just to keep the AVs busy while I run away

Out of interest what are the rewards in RV?
Cant say I have ever really looked at the rewarsd side, beyond xp/prestige and the joy of killing heroes :P

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Yeah. Anyone remember how much fun the rv test was? When they had about 3 or 4 instances of the zones and instant level 40's?

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Hmm... I never got around to joining in during that RV-testing-event.

I think they should have that instant-level-to-40 thing on the test server all the time (as an option)... it'd help people test out potential new alts, and you PvPers might end up with a bit more competition.

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I agree about large teams in RV. The more people the better.

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Yes - level 54 zone objectives, level 54 pets for both sides, and multiple spawning AVs - maybe, just maybe, the zone wasn't designed with solo PvP-ers in mind

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Out of interest what are the rewards in RV?

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Well ... If you manage to get 1000 temporal points before the zone resets, you receive a Mini-Heavy pet temp power that does virtually no damage and appears to be made out of glass.

And the Inf - those sweet, sweet rivers of Inf, flowing into a sea of Prestige

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Out of interest what are the rewards in RV?

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Well ... If you manage to get 1000 temporal points before the zone resets, you receive a Mini-Heavy pet temp power that does virtually no damage and appears to be made out of glass.

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Must have been different to the ones I got then. I used one in Siren's Call to good effect a couple of months ago and then I used another to help take down Jurassik. They seem to last for ages.

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Out of interest what are the rewards in RV?

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50k inf per turret.. kill all turrets in zone once and you get about 1,2 mil..

1.4

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Thats exactly what I was thinking of!

Wonder if its possible to organise though?

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Yeah, it's pretty obvious the zone was made with larger crowds intended. Just find some of the old news items about the zone before it was released, and you'll see what the idea was. However, the reward system doesn't reward people for the right things, so it's not really happened.

There have been some big fights in RV, and when those have happened, it's been a lot of fun. The Heavy owners never remain Heavy owners very long, there are enough people that everyone can get a team even if none of their friends PvP, and so on. It does work, with higher numbers.

In a previous thread, someone tried to organise a weekly RV fight, but I think the whole thing got a little overcomplicated, and people lost interest. It might be happening on Defiant, I'm not sure. There have been times when larger SGs have staged raids, and on one occassion, a huge fight broke out when some heroes announced an AV and badge hunt on the forums, and villains announced a counter attack. PvPers showed up on both sides along with the badgers, and it turned into a huge fight that went on for some time. So events can be organised, and they can work out, but I think in the long run it would be better if the reward system were tweaked to pull more people in, and reward them for actually PvPing.

The way I see it, there are two options - remove things like the Heavies, and the vast amounts of XP/Inf/Prestige from the turrets, making PvE less tempting in the zone, in the hopes that ending such farming will make it more PvPable. The problem with this is that the zone then loses all of its originality, and there's still nothing to attract people... and nothing to do in the downtime when it is quiet. My suspicion is we'd end up with a dead zone.

The other option is what I favour - keep the Heavies (but maybe add a timer if possible - although with more people in there, it might not be necessary), keep the XP potential, but give people a reason to make their side win, and a reason to fight the opposite side. As it stands, there's plenty of reason to kill the neutral turrets, but not much incentive to take the pillboxes for your side - especially if they're already been taken over by the other side. The zone rewards you for letting the other side win, so you can get back to farming more quickly. And then if your side does win, the rewards are pretty poor. If things could be tweaked so that the biggest rewards came from actually taking the zone, then people would do it. And it might encourage people who wouldn't normally to actually fight the other side, to take back pillboxes the other side had taken, and really fight for control.

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Most of what you have said has been backed up in your own opinion, not by evidence - don't try to fudge the two around me Weasel, you know I'll just jump on it. The reason you've seen so many people telling you that Heavies are easily defeatable is because you've been sat here with your fingers in your ears going "Heavies can't be beaten! Heavies are overpowered!" We're just telling you that they can, and they're not.

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But "We're just telling you that they can, and they're not." is opinion, not evidence Syn.

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I think the one thing we can agree on is that the reward system in RV needs to reward PvP and conflict, rather than rewarding PvE and peacemaking. That is entirely independent of the existence of Heavies, however.

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Agree Former. Disagree latter. If there was ANYwhere else in game that allowed you to have +4 minions (Hold on...didn't MM Pets get nerfed down because they were too powerful...oh yes...); then it wouldn't be a problem; but again; as is often the case in most of CoH; the environment is more powerful than the players; even teamed.

The name of the game is SuperHero. Super being 'above the norm'. Here we're below the norm.

And anyway. Healbot/Buffbot; it just means the Empath doesn't do anything other than watch a health/buff bar and that's not an exciting thing to do.

Now; if, as you've admitted; certain AT's find RV difficult; that sort of kills the end-game for most of us (Which consists of Newspaper Missions (Impossible Bank Raids); RV (Extrememly hard defences) or Hami...)

And careful of your word twisting Syn; Close to invincible without specific choices does not equal invincible; you're arguing from the same point as I am; just differing sides.