Discussion: 63 And 66 Month Veteran Rewards!

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I still don't understand why I can't use my real money to buy the 63 month veteran reward if I want to.

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Fundamentally, its because some things aren't for sale. The devs don't sell XP, for example.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the veteran rewards eventually turned into perk packs down the road though. I don't believe the players were ever promised that the veteran rewards would be exclusive to the veteran system; the only inappropriate thing is players attempting to cheat the veteran reward requirements in the first place. There's no intrinsic problem I can see in suggesting that some of the bonuses included in the veteran system show up in other reward systems (certain things, like the actual veteran badges, though, would be inappropriate to sell in perk packs for obvious reasons) although it would depend on the details of how it was done.

I just think that is unlikely in the near term.

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The Fog of War is actually useful to me, I won't ever hit a button to make me have no idea where I need to go next on a map.

...and I am at 60+months already

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I agree, i would use it in outdoor maps but indoor ones, I love being able to know where I have not been.

Side rant: Hate teaming with stalkers that go painting the map before we ever enter it, specially when it's a find glowy or hostage situation, its hard to suddenly know where we have not looked.

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The Fog of War is actually useful to me, I won't ever hit a button to make me have no idea where I need to go next on a map.

...and I am at 60+months already

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I agree, i would use it in outdoor maps but indoor ones, I love being able to know where I have not been.

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I can see how it could be neat on zone maps, but personally I also feel that removing the FoW on mission maps would be a net negative (of sizable magnitude). I'm sure there are some that will end up liking it on mission maps too though (but I believe that a subset of those will actually be doing themselves a disservice).


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Side rant: Hate teaming with stalkers that go painting the map before we ever enter it, specially when it's a find glowy or hostage situation, its hard to suddenly know where we have not looked.

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"I'll scout" is one of the phrases that put me in alert-mode on PuGs.


Other phrases that have that effect (*on PuGs*):
"I'll pull" (seems to be PuG-code for "I'll take this closely packed spawn that we would have no trouble with and scatter it over the maximum possible area, thus both making them harder to control and spreading the team thin")

"Wait here, I'll TP" (which for some reason often tends to take *longer* than actually steamrolling through the mission would)

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They payed and played this game for OVER TWO YEARS, without ANY VRs.

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And then got them all retroactively, making this point moot.

The Veteran's Rewards system purposefully favours veterans over new players. Just admit it and move on.

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Don't know what you meant is moot here.

You are trying to say that going for 28 months without getting and being able to use your VRs during all that time.... IS EQUAL to getting and being able to use your VRs every 3 months as new people can?

Can't be that... obviously not true.


OK, show us that it is moot.
volunteer to go the next 28 months without getting your next 9 VRs, until the 28th month and THEN you get your 9 VRs all at once, at the end.

Show us that you believe it is moot.

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They're only fair if you're a veteran. If you're a veteran, they're immensely fair. For everyone else, the continued addition of new rewards is inherently unfair - the system is weighted towards the veteran's.

Seriously, this isn't that hard. The system is supposed to be weighted towards the veterans. Admit it, enjoy it, and move on.

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OK... I finally see your major logic error.
You see, Here is the thing . . .

You are excluding yourself, and the majority of players from a class they belong to.


YOU . . . . . . . . . . are a veteran!
Players for 60 months? . . . Veterans!
People who started 4 weeks ago? . . . Veterans!

We are all veterans, of different lengths of game experience.
WE ARE ALL VETERANS!


Divide the number of months we have been veterans of the game by 3 ?
THAT is the number of VRs that veterans with your Length of Service, have earned.

And, since we are ALL vets, that means that we are ALL treated equally with VRs!

In the next 3 months EACH of us will get ONE set of VRs.
In the next 6 months EACH of us will get TWO set of VRs.
In the next 12 months EACH of us will get four set of VRs.
and so on.

And each VR we receive will be the SAME as the VRs received by every other vet, when they reach the same Length of Service as we do.
We are all veterans, and all treated the same. in the VR category.


WE ARE ALL VETERANS...
with different Lengths-of-Service,
and perfectly proportional percentage of VRs.

Do NOT strip yourself, or your fellow players of their veteran status.

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Sorry, I've moved on.

I am not exactly thrilled at the prospsect of this new fog be gone magery, but I suppose I still have a few years to warm up to the idea of it.

To those who want to get veteran rewards in a way other than originally designed, please stop. I have been here almost two years now, and I enjoy the game immensely as is. The Vet powers have never been game breaking and only offer a minor perk. Some of my characters never even use vet powers/bonuses. If you want veterans bonuses, there is only way to get them. Stay and play!

Even though this is just a game, I would be upset at my job of 3+ years if a new person came in and was granted the same accolades I had been given just because he coughed up some cash.

Hopefully the devs/sales team will not accept such bribery. I like the idea that some things in the game not being manipulable. If the devs/sales team cave in to such requests, it will be a huge slap in the face to all of those people who stayed around for so long.

Long Live Vet Rewards! (in their current iteration)

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They payed and played this game for OVER TWO YEARS, without ANY VRs.

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I'd think that Veteran Rewards were not designed to be a "consolation reward" for those who haven't enjoyed them before the system took place. It's just a matter of played time, not a reward for "struggling all that time without benefits" as the above quote makes it sound (to me). As small as most VRs are, there was no "struggling" involved — in regards of the enhanced gameplay experience VRs provide.

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Sorry, I've moved on.

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Really good idea.


But if you change your mind,
I can insert more truth and logic.

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While I'm not jumping for joy over these rewards, I will say that stuff given to me for playing for as long as I have is nice no matter what is. The badge is the best part anyway.... except for a travel at level 6. ^^ December can't come fast enough!

63rd Vet Badge power is lame. Anyone who has subscribed for such an extensive time, couldn't you have offered something more significant? Instead of a "click" power that removes Fog of War....

For instance, a token for a character server transfer/character slot, a costume outfit from in game NPC foe (I would love the Tsoo Sorcerer outfit, imho, for example), a permanent Wentworth's teleporter, or something more "substantial".

Dedication from player base should be rewarded with more "meaningful" rewards.

This will be a never ending argument for some people. They want the rewards and they want them now. It is almost like saying that a guy works for a company for 20 years and gets a great perk and the guy that has only been there for 2 years should get the same perk by working 80 hours a week so that he can catch up to the guy that gave 20 years. A reward is just that...a reward.

Reward - something given or received for worthy behavior, or compensation given as an inducement to cause a desired act or circumstance to occur. A reward usually offers a tangible, specific goal that a person can work toward.

First off, I’m not a big fan of truth or logic. I’ve found it has very little place in this world I’d like to introduce you called Earth, and this race of emotional, illogical and entitled people called humans. It’s a nice place, stay a while.

Here’s the final litmus test to whether to continue reading.

In the middle ages (or so, roughly), if the question was = What and where is the Earth, is the Correct answer…

A-It’s a flat surface at the center of the Universe.
B-It’s a round surface at the center of the Universe.
C-It’s a round surface orbiting the sun.

The correct answer is… A!

In the middle ages of course.

Fact = The Earth is round.
Fact = It orbits the sun.
Fact = Answering anything other than A- got you hit, expelled or killed depending on where or when you lived.

That means actual truth or fact has very VERY little to do with day to day life, then or now. Perception > Facts. Emotion > Facts. If this is gobbledygook to you, please stop reading and have a nice day.

(I AM getting to Veteran Rewards, but it’ll be a while. Get comfy.)

Here it is, put another way. I work as a phone tech at a cable company. We’re not in the USA. We supply cable for Cable TV and Internet. That’s IT. It says very clearly we stop at the modem or the digital box. We do NOT service, install, or help you in any way with your TV, VCR, DVD, Home Entertainment System or your computer. You didn’t buy it from us? It’s not our problem. (We say it more nicely, but that’s the gist.)

Logical, said clearly in the AUP (Acceptable Use Policy). Should make my life easy right?

WRONG.

Every SINGLE day I get asked how to hook up a VCR. Every SINGLE day, I’m told “I don’t care whether you service the computer or not. HELP ME or I unsubscribe.”

And they do. I send people to cancellations by the HOUR, not by the day. “Unsupported issues” is the #1 cause of cancellation at the company. Doesn’t matter that the customer is self-entitled, and in all ways WRONG, s/he is gone, and that’s less income.

We tell them, we send an onsite tech, and, if we plug in our own TV or laptop to your cable, and it works, it means the problem was on your end and you lose (roughly $80 US) for sending our tech on a non-company issue and we won’t fix your issue.

Sounds logical right? We send OUR tech for YOUR issue, and therefore, it’s not free. You pay us. Cept, here on Earth, logic has very little to do with life. People are outraged, go “I don’t care. Fix my VCR / Computer / Whatever” and they unsubscribe.

Back to VR.

Every point you guys make about logic, patience, consistency is absolutely and in all ways right. You are correct. Sadly, you are neither representative nor going to “win” against the average customer. Most people are in the “now now now, I pay 15$ a month, I’m a God dontchaknow.” And they’ll walk. And they’ll bring their friends with them.

All it matters is to get those subscriptions in.

NOT opening the AE Badge can of worms again, but if, ***IF*** CoH lost 75-90% of its playerbase (it didn’t, but IF) over the badge changes, even though the devs might be totally 100% correct, do you really think it wouldn’t be reversed, then and there, with an apology? It’s a business. In a classroom, being right, and being logical trumps all. As a business, money is the only thing that matters. Case in point though, as far as I know, the AE badge changes did NO change to the subscription, ergo, it stayed. But don’t delude yourself that almost any business owner wouldn’t point at the sky and say “You’re right. It’s orange, it’s not blue.” If it gave them more customers.

(And to those business owners that go “*I*’d never do that”, ask yourself this = are you representative?)

All this to say, it doesn’t matter if the VR is fair or not, or logical or not. If it’s PERCEIVED as unfair, illogical, or disheartening, you lose people. The end. You can be right, but you’ll be in a tiny group, enjoying your right-ness, if, and I do mean *IF* the majority thinks VR is unfair and it’s enough to make them go away.

So, as much as I enjoy debate, logic, and patience, and removing entitlement as the other guy, on planet earth, ESPECIALLY in the non-essential goods section, that holds little weight to many.

Or, said another way, you can be right about every single point, but if the newbies leave, they leave, and we have to do something unfair and illogical to keep them.

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Now, throwing an anecdote in favour of the logic people

So, at the cable company I work for, they tried a 6 month TRIAL (with BIG huge font mailouts saying it was a trial) that we supported everything. VCRs. DVDs. Computers. We got training. They hired extra people for the call volumes. An entire section of supervisors had advance training and a hotline for us frontline agents to use.

We did that hoping to see if the added expense of the above was worth it to keep the customers.

After 6 months = net result = It cost us FAR more to support everything, than the money we got back from customer retention, and customers from other companies coming in. Turns out that, in our business, as per most, 20% of the customers consumed 80% of the resources (in this case tech support), so, going back to the old ways meant we lost only the illogical, angry, and self-entitled minority, and not the silent majority.

(And yes, I’m down on the customer. But YOU try working in customer service for 24 years, and not be down on humanity. And if you’re not, hats off. You’re a better person that me.)

All that to say, maybe keeping things as if for VR is the EXACT right thing to do. But, in other companies I worked with, we had to remove the expectation of logic, and patience from customers, just to stay in business.

Don’t think just because you are right… that this is the correct way to act… to stay afloat.

Something to think of, anyways. (Oh, and forgive the spelling, grammar. I’m English Second Language)

Actually the answer would have been B. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth.

While your reasoning might be sound in some cases of customer support I don't think applies to the veteran rewards which I believe works as intended for the majority of the subscribers both new and old. I know for a fact I let my payment lapse when trying other games before the VR program and hasn't for even a month afterwards.

The new vet rewards seem ok. The reveal power will be useful for vets making new toons and such. The 66 month vet reward is also ok I guess. Was hoping that maybe for that type of customer who has been loyal for all this time, especially 66 months straight, should get a better reward like oh i dunno ridable motorcycle or a personal flying vehicle, or a permanent jetpack!

That would be nice.......

Ok, lets stop giving vet rewards altogether so everyone's happy. Then give each account the option to post their number of months sub and or original sub date at the top of their bag list. Then people can catch up on badges and vets. Those who left and came back will be happier about coming back, and post an 6/7/04 original (example) date as their sub. While allowing those who have been here the whole time to show off their months. All happy now?

Long time vets should at least have something to set themselves apart from others.

I'm no 63 month vet either, almost 54 months here, and I only expect what I've earned for my TIME and DEDICATION!

So let's suppose that the devs decided to stop any more Veteren Rewards after the 66th month one. Now, further suppose that CoX shut down 67 months from now. A new player joining today would get all rewards up to the 66th month if he subscribed until the end.

But what if the devs didn't stop at 66, but decided to stop at 69 instead? A new player joining today would get...all rewards up to the 66th month if he subscribed until the end, the exact same rewards he would have gotten if the devs had stopped at his highest reward.

A reward never offered can never be gained. At least if the devs continued to offer Veteren Rewards there would be a chance for getting them. If the devs stopped, they would be guaranteeing that future potential rewards could never be gained by anybody.

The argument that the devs should stop making new Veteran Rewards because new players would not be able to get them is really an argument that says, "If new players can't have something, then nobody else should be able to either."

People need to accept the fact that they can't have everything in the game. Everything was not designed for everybody. Not everybody enjoys PvP; not everybody has hours to dedicate to some of the longer task forces; not everybody has the energy to research and gather all the badges; and not everybody was subscribed for the same amount of time.

The only question the devs need to care about is how vital the Veteran Rewards are to people's enjoyment. If not having a given ability truly harms the playability of the game, then perhaps that ability should be given to all players. But if the "harm" is merely one player being jealous of what another player has, and enjoying the game just as much if neither had the reward as if both did, then perhaps the reward is serving its intended purpose in a two-fold manner, by both creating non-vital rewards that people feel an incentive to get and filtering out those who have a sense of entitlement that the game cannot likely support.

First, I wish this debate would end, since everyone was debating me and I gave it up a month ago.

Secondly, I also wish people would stop using "sense of entitlement" without knowing what it means. Both sides have a sense of entitlement - new players have a sense of entitlement to all rewards, and Veterans have a sense of entitlement to new, continued rewards.

People's sense of entitlement may in fact be amazing, but it's a knife that cuts both ways.

First off, no matter what topic you care to debate - at no point, ever, in the history of mankind - will you find a unanimous concensus. Especially when platformed for discussion within a public forum. There are too many poeple with their own perspective on whats right about "anything" you care to discuss. Period. This is why war will never end until we are all gone.

With that in mind, I disagree with you on several levels...

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan First, I wish this debate would end, since everyone was debating me and I gave it up a month ago.

You opened the door to this particular debate, so while you may have decided to milk the cow, you can't put the milk back in the cow. Besides, I don't recall anyone, including myself, single you out on this topic.

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan Secondly, I also wish people would stop using "sense of entitlement" without knowing what it means.

Fairly arrogant statement here. Are you an authority?

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan Both sides have a sense of entitlement - new players have a sense of entitlement to all rewards, and Veterans have a sense of entitlement to new, continued rewards.

A. What exactly justifies new players to this sense of entitlement to all rewards?

My 2-1/2 year old son cries because he wants the new toy his 4 year old sister just got for her birthday. He wants it now and doesn't want to wait another 9 months for his brthday to arrive. Is he entitled to that gift?

B. We vets are grateful, and admittedly in some cases not so grateful, for the vet rewards we receive. I may be wrong, but I don't recall reading a vet stating "we are entitled" to rewards for playing your game.

This is a perc, a small gesture of gratitude provided by the devs to players commited to their brand. You expect United Airlines to give you all the frequent flyers you missed while you were out flying with Continental?

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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan People's sense of entitlement may in fact be amazing, but it's a knife that cuts both ways.

So, aftere all that, me being amazed at peoples sense of entitlement is a statement you actually agree with. Funny.