Discussion: 63 And 66 Month Veteran Rewards!
By
alienuterus,
Posted on: 2009-07-17 14:05 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Second of all, having the veteran's rewards cap out after an arbitrary length of time is about as 'fair' as suggesting that companies stop paying salaries to their workers after five years
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City of Heroes is not a job, and Veteran's Rewards are not a salary.
This is a service we all pay for. I pay just as much as you do. You don't pay more because you're a veteran, and you haven't contributed more, because you're not contributing. You're playing.
If the only reason you keep subscribing is for your 60+X month veteran reward, I have to wonder what value you are to the community aside from income, and if your value is income, why aren't the same benefits for sale?
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Second of all, having the veteran's rewards cap out after an arbitrary length of time is about as 'fair' as suggesting that companies stop paying salaries to their workers after five years
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City of Heroes is not a job, and Veteran's Rewards are not a salary.
This is a service we all pay for. I pay just as much as you do. You don't pay more because you're a veteran, and you haven't contributed more, because you're not contributing. You're playing.
If the only reason you keep subscribing is for your 60+X month veteran reward, I have to wonder what value you are to the community aside from income, and if your value is income, why aren't the same benefits for sale?
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The veteran reward is not specifically a reward for subscription dollars per se but for actually being a subscriber. No amount of dollars paid today buys the existence of the game then. The only reason we have a game in 2009 is because of the subscribers in 2008. And the only reason those subscribers had a game is because of the subscribers in 2007. Without the subscribers of 2004, there would be no game today. Veteran reward programs reward long-term loyalty because long-term loyal customers have given the game a benefit that cannot be replicated by any amount of money today. Money today can only go towards supporting the game today. In this one sense, 2004 subscription dollars and 2009 subscription dollars are not fungible.
That's why veteran status is (in this case) not for sale. You can't buy it without a functioning time machine.
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At least someone finally admitted that they do, in fact, view veterans as more valuable than new players.
These rewards look great! Thanks for the fun rewards, devs!
And I say piffle to the suggestion to turn them off so Eiokochan can catch up. The developers don't "value him less" than any other player. That's ridiculously emo. The level of hyperbole is getting pretty high. It's almost enough to drown.
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City of Heroes is not a job, and Veteran's Rewards are not a salary.
This is a service we all pay for. I pay just as much as you do. You don't pay more because you're a veteran, and you haven't contributed more, because you're not contributing. You're playing.
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None of that is relevant, and you really need to stop trying to sidestep the point. Whether we're talking about a job or the veteran's reward program, you receive benefits in direct proportion to the amount of time you spend on the activity in question.
Yes, you pay as much as everyone else does. And you get your veteran's rewards at the same rate that they do. The reason you do not get to receive them early by paying extra is because they are a provided as an incentive for maintaining your subscription, and letting people buy them would undermine the intent of the system.
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If the only reason you keep subscribing is for your 60+X month veteran reward, I have to wonder what value you are to the community aside from income, and if your value is income, why aren't the same benefits for sale?
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I didn't realize that looking forward to the veteran's rewards was the only reason the people who like them are playing, or that the only thing anyone who stays on with the game brings to it is their subscription fee. Thank you for clarifying that for me. You certainly have an interesting outlook on things. I also like the notion that the incentive program, which is designed to keep people playing, should stop beyond a certain point. So once you've been with the game for five years, your value as a subscriber and to the community apparently ends, since the devs are supposed to stop providing additional incentives to remain with the game beyond that point. Nice worldview you've got there.
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I'm saying it should be terminated because I can't stand other players receiving a reward I can't.
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That's what it all comes down to, isn't it? You'll twist anything and everything people say to you because you're unwilling to accept the fact that somebody else has a shiney you want, and you can't have it. Not even if you offer to pay extra, wail bitterly about the unfairness of it all, or hold your breath until you're blue in the face. Guess what? Life is like that sometimes. Some things are non-negotiable, no matter how much you beg, bargain, or plead. This is one of those things. The sooner you accept that and let it go, the better off you'll be.
I just wanted someone to admit the system was unfair and biased towards veterans. I'm satisfied now.
I think Arcanaville might take issue with your... highly creative interpretation of her post.
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I just wanted someone to admit the system was unfair and biased towards veterans. I'm satisfied now.
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But. It is NOT unfair.
Every player no matter whether they are 6 month veterans or 60 month veterans, WILL receive a fair share of VRs.
In 12 months of play, they will receive 4 sets of VRs.
Exactly, purposely, FAIR!
Thus the VR system works perfectly for its purpose.
They are there, to entice players to keep paying and playing.
They are there, to entice people not to take random time out of keeping their account active.
EVERY PLAYER GETS THE SAME REWARD!
3 months of play? 1 set of VRs.
Perfectly fair.
Any changes to this system WOULD be unfair.
No one gets any VR before they earn it.
No one gets more VRs than others, for the same amount of time
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I just wanted someone to admit the system was unfair and biased towards veterans. I'm satisfied now.
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Well, The system may have been unfair, but actually unfair to the oldest veterans.
They payed and played this game for OVER TWO YEARS, without ANY VRs.
So if a few people never get the highest VRs when CoX finally goes Boom?
Oh well, that is sort of counterbalance for those two years.
We went 2 years without VRs, and we had fun.
The game is even better now, and we still play it to have fun.
If you enjoy it, keep playing. If you don't, then quit.
CoX is just plain fun, on it's own merit.
But as long as you keep playing, you will keep on getting 1 fluffy VR every 3 months, like clockwork.
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VRs are fun to get. And they may have kept me from taking a few months of vacation from the game here and there.
But they ARE just nice fluffy perks.
VRs, or lack of VRs, would NOT cause me to quit playing.
They are just nice little extras that EVERY player gets, once every 3 months.
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They payed and played this game for OVER TWO YEARS, without ANY VRs.
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And then got them all retroactively, making this point moot.
The Veteran's Rewards system purposefully favours veterans over new players. Just admit it and move on.
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They payed and played this game for OVER TWO YEARS, without ANY VRs.
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And then got them all retroactively, making this point moot.
The Veteran's Rewards system purposefully favours veterans over new players. Just admit it and move on.
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I shouldn't get into this debate, but your statement caught my attention. When this game started was it fun and still is, however, there weren't all the features available that we now have. As a veteran of this game we went through a lot of changes to the game an remained loyal throughout. When the Devs implemented the VRs, they had to give the rewards to us retroactively because to do otherwise wouldn't have been fair to the veteran players.
It's not a moot point because the Devs rewarded their existing player base retroactively. Example: If the Devs hadn't retro awarded old players and started old and new players at the same point how would that have been fair to the old players who put the pay and play time in? The older players have tested, bugged and helped to improve the game over time and have also helped in promoting the game to friends and family. It is this reason that the Devs decided to give incentives to their long time players. They're not trying to be unfair or unappreciative to new players. As a result, new players have the benefit of getting a more polished game from the work the Devs and the players before them have put into it.
I understand that many new players want to have the vet rewards as soon as possible. Look at it this way, we wanted a lot of the things too early on, but had to wait until they were available. That's not only just for vet rewards, that's also for game features and content as well. I've been waiting for power costumization since the beginning now after FIVE years I'll now have it. If NCSoft allowed VRs to be purchased, sure they'd get an influx of money from new players. Some new players, once they've gotten all the rewards, would probably move onto a new game when something else shiny comes along and that wouldn't be good for this company. The Devs want new and old players alike and the VRs are fair and give everyone the opportunity to gain rewards. All that's required is consistent continued patronage of this game!
They're only fair if you're a veteran. If you're a veteran, they're immensely fair. For everyone else, the continued addition of new rewards is inherently unfair - the system is weighted towards the veteran's.
Seriously, this isn't that hard. The system is supposed to be weighted towards the veterans. Admit it, enjoy it, and move on.
rather than keeping the really quite pointless debate about whether vet rewards are fair or not or whether you'll ever be able to get them all blah blah bullcrap. why don't you justinvite me to your super group, i'll drop all my base rewards for you and you can stop pratleing on
Lord Raptor lvl 50 Thugs/traps MM Le Guerrier lvl 50 Broadsword/invuln scrapper
Lola the Chain lvl 50 electric/energy brute Kage Ryu lvl 50 ninja/dark MM
Billy. Bones lvl 50 zombie/trick arrow MM Jet Stream lvl 50 Super Strength/invuln tank
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They payed and played this game for OVER TWO YEARS, without ANY VRs.
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And then got them all retroactively, making this point moot.
The Veteran's Rewards system purposefully favours veterans over new players. Just admit it and move on.
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As someone who started CoH only this January I do take issue with the fact that I will never achieve the rewards and abilities others have thru the VR program. Because of this fact I am actively looking at "the other Superhero MMO" since I can start the game on a level playing field.
Is that what you really want for CoH? New players constantly seeing items they will never get so they decide to leave? How is that helpful to the longetivity of the game? And thus the veterans' enjoyment?
Why not make the VRs something I can purchase now if I want with real money or I can chose to wait and get them as a VR? OR how about making them all purchaseable and at each VR point you are given the right to choose one for free? Everyone wins and new players can either wait or buy them.
Flu
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They're only fair if you're a veteran. If you're a veteran, they're immensely fair. For everyone else, the continued addition of new rewards is inherently unfair - the system is weighted towards the veteran's.
Seriously, this isn't that hard. The system is supposed to be weighted towards the veterans. Admit it, enjoy it, and move on.
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I really don't understand your sentiment because if you've been playing this game since your registration date, then you're a veteran players as well. You say that it's weighted toward veterans, well that's the whole point of the reward system. They're rewarding consistent monetary patronage of the game. This is not new in the world of business -- a very common practice in fact.
I'm not sure why you don't see this and why you appear to feel it's unfair, but ok.
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I really don't understand your sentiment because if you've been playing this game since your registration date, then you're a veteran players as well.
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I played for two months from then, didn't really like Statesman's version of the game (and took a break from MMOs altogether), and came back shortly after i12. I just today hit 15 months of VR.
I wasn't arguing for myself personally, however. I was arguing a principle. Which I am done doing.
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As someone who started CoH only this January I do take issue with the fact that I will never achieve the rewards and abilities others have thru the VR program. Because of this fact I am actively looking at "the other Superhero MMO" since I can start the game on a level playing field.
Is that what you really want for CoH? New players constantly seeing items they will never get so they decide to leave? How is that helpful to the longetivity of the game? And thus the veterans' enjoyment?
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Thank you, Flu, for letting me know I'm not alone in my thinking. That makes me feel better.
So what you're saying is that if you had a friend that's been with you through good times and bad. Have proven his or herself truly good, loyal and dependable, you would treat a new friend with the same regard? I don't think you would! This is the same principle for the VRs. It's about relationships and the veterans have established a relationship with the game that is loyal and dependable. Surely, the Devs want new friends/players and they want to do right by them as well, but they also want to keep their old friend/players. Frankly, you wouldn't go to a bank, airline or a myriad of other businesses and complain about their reward systems because it would fall on deaf ears. However, because the forum is here for you to voice your concerns, you have that privilege.
You say that I'm only for the VRs because it benefits me -- that's true to a point because I like them. I wouldn't care if the Devs did sell them to new players, because it wouldn't stop me from enjoyin them. I'm only responding to this post because what you're posting is a very self centered stance and not fully thought out.
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So what you're saying is that if you had a friend that's been with you through good times and bad. Have proven his or herself truly good, loyal and dependable, you would treat a new friend with the same regard? I don't think you would!
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Actually, it only takes a few meetings to get me to treat someone like a friend; I'm a pretty charitable person overall.
Moreover, I don't, and I don't think most people do, treat my friends of five years drastically different from my friends of ten.
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At least someone finally admitted that they do, in fact, view veterans as more valuable than new players.
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I never said that. What I said was that the veteran reward system rewards subcription time because being a subscriber at a particular moment is specifically valuable to the game at that moment in a way that retroactively paying the same amount of money cannot replace. However, someone that subscribes for a year from April 2004 to March 2005 gets exactly the same credit for that twelve months of subscription as someone who subscribes for a year from April 2008 to March 2009. The system doesn't value any particular month of subscription any higher or lower than any other month. But it does consider them *distinct*. Only 2004 subscribers can get credit for being 2004 subscribers, just like only 2009 subscribers can get credit for being 2009 subscribers.
Put it another way: lets take "veteran status" out of the equation. Suppose a player has subscribed since head start, subscribed for a year, then suspended their subscription. Then last month decided to resubscribe. They have thirteen months of subscription. Their thirteen months counts no more and no less than the player that started thirteen months ago. The system does not preferentially offer the "veteran" anything more than the (relatively) new player. All that matters is total months of subscription, regardless of when you started playing the game.
The system doesn't consider veterans as more valuable players. It rewards months of subscription. It doesn't care *which* months. It *does* value someone who subscribed for fifteen months higher than someone who subscribed for only twelve months. But again, it doesn't matter which months, and it doesn't matter which first player started subscribing to the game earlier.
Its just that while the system values all months of subscription equally, it doesn't value them in dollars which is why you can't buy credit for being a subscriber during months you weren't actually a subscriber. You're being rewarded for actually *being* a subscriber on July 23, 2009, not for paying the same amount of money that players did on July 23, 2009. Once July 23, 2009 is gone, you can never get credit for it again.
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Actually, it only takes a few meetings to get me to treat someone like a friend; I'm a pretty charitable person overall.
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Ok, but would you be able to rely/depend on that person considering you have essentially little to no track record of behavior from that individual?
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Moreover, I don't, and I don't think most people do, treat my friends of five years drastically different from my friends of ten.
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No you most likely wouldn't because there's been sufficient time to establish relationships with the 5 year friend and the 10 year friend. In terms of the game; however, they based the rewards on time and patronage because it's not possible for them to get to know the players individually.
What the real issue here is that either you think the game will not last long enough for you to receive the rewards or you will not be playing the game long enough to receive them. You've already stated that you've taken long breaks from the game. So why should NCSoft or any business care so much for you as customer than someone that's loyal and steady. That would be the same for a friend, if I rarely see or interact with one friend, but there's a friend that's constant and attentive in my life I most certainly will give more attention to that friend then to the one I rarely interact with.
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They're only fair if you're a veteran. If you're a veteran, they're immensely fair. For everyone else, the continued addition of new rewards is inherently unfair - the system is weighted towards the veteran's.
Seriously, this isn't that hard. The system is supposed to be weighted towards the veterans. Admit it, enjoy it, and move on.
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The system's not weighted towards the veterans. Statements like that make me wonder if you even understand what 'weighted' actually means. People have already explained this to you countless times, but it seems like no matter what anyone here says, you'll try to twist their words, or failing that, just ignore things they say outright if that contradicts the point you're trying to make. According to you, the veterans' reward system is unfair, and no amount of logic or reason will convince you otherwise.
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I wasn't arguing for myself personally, however. I was arguing a principle.
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And what is this 'principle' you're arguing for? Once again, I'll quote a previous post of yours:
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I'm saying it should be terminated because I can't stand other players receiving a reward I can't.
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Ahh, so virtuous you are! Fight for those principles! The way the system's structured means it's possible for someone else to have something that you can't, and the mere thought of that is intolerable to you. 'I want what she's got! I want it! Gimme! Waaaah! Unfair! It's so unfair!' This is the sort of behavior I expect from three- and four-year-olds, not someone who (I'm assuming) is old enough to understand that 'unfair' is not synonymous with 'not getting my way'.
Your argument that the system is unfair because the people who have been here the longest have earned the most rewards is also ridiculous. The system is designed to reward people for staying subscribed. Those rewards are granted at regular intervals. Therefore, the longer you're subscribed for, the more of them you'll get. This is fair, something that you yourself acknowledged. The fact that someone who's been playing longer than you will have earned more veterans' rewards as a result does not represent bias in any way, shape or form, no matter what you want to believe. Neither does the fact that the program doesn't just end after an arbitrary number of months. The rewards are an incentive to stay subscribed. If they were to be stopped at a certain point, that effectively says, 'After x months, we no longer value your patronage enough to encourage you to stay.' And that sends out a message that the existing customerbase is disposable. That runs counter to the whole intent of the program. Aside from being an extremely self-serving suggestion on your part, it's just a stupid idea.
Seriously, this isn't that hard. The system is fair, Eikochan. Admit it, accept it, and move on.
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Moreover, I don't, and I don't think most people do, treat my friends of five years drastically different from my friends of ten.
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No you most likely wouldn't because there's been sufficient time to establish relationships with the 5 year friend and the 10 year friend. In terms of the game; however, they based the rewards on time and patronage because it's not possible for them to get to know the players individually.
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Also, you don't owe your existence to having friends willing to pay for the privilege of being your friend.
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I still don't understand why I can't use my real money to buy the 63 month veteran reward if I want to. How does that hurt the game if I can pay to have my VRs now? I think it helps it. Personally, I'd like to see the VRs be a free booster pack. That way, if I can't wait to get it via VR, then I can buy it now. And realistically speaking I do not see myself playing a 5 year old game for 5 years into the future. Let me buy some of those VRs.
I have $$$ to spend and you need it for the longevity of the game. Do you want it or not? If not, why not?
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I still don't understand why I can't use my real money to buy the 63 month veteran reward if I want to. How does that hurt the game if I can pay to have my VRs now? I think it helps it. Personally, I'd like to see the VRs be a free booster pack. That way, if I can't wait to get it via VR, then I can buy it now. And realistically speaking I do not see myself playing a 5 year old game for 5 years into the future. Let me buy some of those VRs.
I have $$$ to spend and you need it for the longevity of the game. Do you want it or not? If not, why not?
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I can agree with this. Though I did start playing the game soon after I release, there was an extended period of time that I didn't play. No fault of my own, really. Well maybe it was my fault. Guess that's what I get for going to Iraq for those two years. 
I'll just tell them no, I can't go next time, I need to earn my vet rewards. I mean, I've already earned my real world vet rewards, now I wants a travel power on my scrapper at level 6!! 
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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You're saying the system should be terminated because you can't stand other players receiving a reward earlier than you.
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I'm saying it should be terminated because I can't stand other players receiving a reward I can't. Continuing the system until the game closes creates just that problem.
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That's mostly a theoretical problem and not a real problem for any of the current rewards, and furthermore I addressed it already:
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I say "to the same degree" because there is a loophole never acknowledged in the iterative argument that an indefinite veteran system prevents players from "eventually" getting all the rewards, simply due to the fact that one day the system will be shut down and prevent players from achieving all of them. The devs could simply state that if the game were ever to be shut down they'll autogrant all the veteran rewards to the remaining players at least 24 hours before the servers close.
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