New player experience sucks pretty bad right now
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-09 22:48 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MMOs are about balance and even if you take farming out of the equation, AE is not balanced.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your post pretty much sums it up nicely.
AE is a system with no downfalls, while the current dev content has them.
As much as we might hate running from top of IP to the bottom just to let a contact know you finished a mission and want another, or hate having to do 3 paper missions before a broker will give you a contact, those things give some kind of cohesion to the game experience. You're seeing the city, you're getting a chance to look at zone events. In COV, you might come across an unlockable contact you didn't know about.
We may hate some or a lot of things about how the devs choose to present the game content and some of it may need revamping after all these years...but it should never be made irrelevant simply because it does not get you uber-leveled or offer enough phat lewtz in comparison to AE stuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
It comes down to an absolute refusal by the devs to update old content. To have the contacts give you their phone number after 1 mission. To clean up and fix old tf's. People have been asking for this stuff for years. And were ignored. Instead of fixing the tf's, they added merits to them to bait you into doing the unused ones. They were unused for a reason.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that surprised them was the farming- note their disorganized overreaction to it.
Again, I said this would transform the game before it came out.
And I know a lot less about MMOs than they do.
That's the only possible result, assuming the system works at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except it really didn't transform the game. It just changed the point of it to farming.
[ QUOTE ]
Think what you like, it is what it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the permission...especially since you can't provide any evidence to support your ideas except for unintended consequences.
[ QUOTE ]
Sure they did, up to a point.
[/ QUOTE ]
No they didn't. Castle said recently in relation to the balance of MA content to regular content:
'In theory, this is all balanced by there being no "end of mission" reward in terms of XP/Influence/Prestige. In practice...not so much.'
That would seem to suggest that MA content is STILL too rewarding vs. regular content. And this isn't a desired situation for them.
[ QUOTE ]
Uh.................that's exactly what AE is.
[/ QUOTE ]
AE is a lot of things...but an expansion to core gameplay isn't one of them. Expansion to core gameplay would be things like branching story arcs, more interactive mission environments, more mission types to choose from, a skill system separate from combat powers and new ways to use our powers in missions.
AE is the same old mission types we have had since launch with player-written dialogue. You may think this a vast expansion to core gameplay...but I think its just so much blah.
[ QUOTE ]
It comes down to an absolute refusal by the devs to update old content. To have the contacts give you their phone number after 1 mission. To clean up and fix old tf's. People have been asking for this stuff for years. And were ignored. Instead of fixing the tf's, they added merits to them to bait you into doing the unused ones. They were unused for a reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
THIS I can agree with. The concept of 'if it's broke then make something else and leave it laying there' leads to a lot of broken stuff laying around catching dust. Like 'hazard' zones. Hello Perez Park!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In theory, this is all balanced by there being no "end of mission" reward in terms of XP/Influence/Prestige. In practice...not so much.
[/ QUOTE ]
In theory, theory and practice are similar, in practice...
[/ QUOTE ]
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is."
- Yogi Berra
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you're proposing is actually more restrictive than simply removing the buildings from the lowbie zones. In the removal idea a player can simply choose to run to the nearest AE and go about their merry way the exact same way as before. Your idea will force them to run certain contacts or hit a certain level.
I believe something needs to change but I think it's too late to level-gate AE.
Edit: It's also too late to tie AE access to a Vet Reward. How would you like to buy a game called "City of Heroes: Architect Edition", get home and read a pop-up "Oh by the way, Architect is a Veteran's Reward you'll get in 3 months, enjoy!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I'm not proposing this. It's just an effort to think along the lines of what others are bemoaning in this thread without absolutely hamstringing everybody.
Personally, I think AE is fine the way it is. I don't see the need to remove it from the starter zones; if forumites are concerned that newbies are somehow missing out, maybe we should be creating new characters and inviting said newbies to regular teams rather than coming to the forums and trying to make the devs force others to play our way. 
[/ QUOTE ]
I see a lack of veteran forumites volunteering to form low level teams to help newbies along. They like to complain but refuse to be part of the solution.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm just not the nanny type. I don't mind every now and then, but make an in-game career out of it, no.
Was on a very lucrative farm the other day with a new player who had been picked up evidently as a level 1 or 2. He had leveled in the double-digits in this one mission, and had the following several questions literally every 30 seconds:
*What level was he now? and
*Were we done yet? And if not, could we get done now so he could go level?
*If he left the mission to go level, would he still be on the team?
*If he left the mission, would he still be getting xp?
Everyone on the team, myself included, was as patient as possible and answered all of these questions multiple times. After about the fifth repetition I was to the point where I wanted to start stabbing my own hand with a fork, to distract myself from the pain of people who are literally dumber than a bag of hammers.
Some of us were not education majors in college. I don't think that makes us bad people, nor do I view what's happening in the game now as my fault, and it being my fault I'd better get out there and start educating. In my experience people do not take attempts at polite education at all well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that sandbox style gameplay doesn't generally involve congregating in a single room around a pillar of light.
[/ QUOTE ]
the pillar of light is substantially more attractive than most of the other mission entrances in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]For some reason, when I read this I saw the Mission Architect entrance as one giant bug-zapper. Maybe that's Aeon's master plan?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
The problem isn't really that the rewards in AE are too great. The problem is that the system is ridiculously easy to exploit. That's the operative word here -- exploit. I agree people should be left to play the game the way they want to play it, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and the line I draw is somewhere before "having one level 50 wipe out a map of enemies who don't fight back while 7 other lowbies soak up the phat XP".
Like it or not, this IS a multiplayer community game, but the community aspect is going to be completely demolished for players who actually want to play their characters normally, if most of the playerbase is powerleveling their way to 50.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Actually, you know what the easiest solution is?
Start villainside.
Yesterday afternoon on Freedom there were at least 2 teams of low level villains running Kalinda's and Mongoose's missions. The team I was on even completed the bank mission on the first run 
Of course later you get to Cap au Diable... but by that time hopefully newbies will be hooked on getting out there and doing some villainy!
Nethergoat, you seem to pop up in every AE and farm thread there is. Perhaps you should make your own thread if you have such a strong opinion that you need to post so excessively? Then you can see how much support you really get? Nitpicking sematics at the back of threads seems to be your speciality.
I get that you like how AE is.
I get how you enjoy the high reward, low effort of AE missions.
I get how you justify this by saying dev content is bad with all the travelling.
So why don't you get that this might not be in the best interests of the game longterm?
That this is suppose to be a hero game and that is what primarily attracted people?
Not some 5 year veteren who is now so tired of the game its more about numbers then fun?
There are so many analogys I could use to express how the "I like it easy, fast and now, regardless of the repurcussions" may not be the best route. You must be young, naive, or perhaps both?
[ QUOTE ]
This thread makes me feel sick.
Come on... stop trying to decide what people should do. Do you pay for their accounts?
And stop bickering around because other people are having fun in a way you dont want.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a game, not a democracy.
This is more like a sport then a countries policiy on equality and free rights.
Games have rules which you abide by. If someone breaks them you don't turn around and say "Oh but its their football league, let them play how they want!"
Ok, I know that AE is not "breaking the rules". I'm not saying it is. But if it goes against the "spirit of the game" then perhaps the regulaters, or the devs, need to step in and bring the game back to what it was originally intended to be?
Also please stop saying things make you sick, if you want sick, perhaps you should look up some real world inequalities, not whether CoH players should (ab)use AE or not. For goodness sake.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you know what the easiest solution is?
Start villainside.
[/ QUOTE ]
...Wha? Redside has AE too. And it's even harder to find a team there because fewer people play redside to begin with.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This thread makes me feel sick.
Come on... stop trying to decide what people should do. Do you pay for their accounts?
And stop bickering around because other people are having fun in a way you dont want.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a game, not a democracy.
This is more like a sport then a countries policiy on equality and free rights.
Games have rules which you abide by. If someone breaks them you don't turn around and say "Oh but its their football league, let them play how they want!"
Ok, I know that AE is not "breaking the rules". I'm not saying it is. But if it goes against the "spirit of the game" then perhaps the regulaters, or the devs, need to step in and bring the game back to what it was originally intended to be?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok. Now explain to me what is the "spirit of the game". How someone should know it when they join the game? The question is that most forum ragers throws tantrums telling the devs to remove AE, restrict AE to level XX or to veteran badge YY, or to remove/limit/cap/change AE´s rewards, and that to conform to their playstyles and views. They are actually trying to change things to what only they, on their "holy morality state of being" are worthy to do.
The AE was a big change to the game, and it was wondrous. It is wondrous. And it works as it was designed. The way it should work, giving us the way to create what we want.
Get the farm makers slots. Make then loose it. Slowly the farms will be corrected. But be very carefull about what you report, for whats a farm for one, may be a deadly trap to others.
[ QUOTE ]
Also please stop saying things make you sick, if you want sick, perhaps you should look up some real world inequalities, not whether CoH players should (ab)use AE or not. For goodness sake.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am not questioning if the players should Abuse or not. What makes me sick is the tantrums of some people on the forum, posing as "enlightened", and judging that only they have the right to play as they want, and that their way is the only way.
And dont tell me about real world inequities. I actually live on a Third World country, where less than 5% of the people has 99% of all PIB, where families of 5, 6 persons survive with no more than $100 per month of FAMILY income. Where corruption abounds and crime thrives. I also work with the third sector, and I see things that really makes me even physically sick (not even touching the emotional effects of it).
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This has already been talked about quite a bit.
Here's my main idea that will take care of this issue instantly if it is implemented.
https://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthre...ue#Post13595973
The first idea does nothing about the farming issues other driving characters out of lower level zones in order to use the AE -- which strikes directly to the point of your post.
The second idea adds to the first idea to reduce the speed that characters can be power leveled. This shouldn't be an issue as the DEVs have clearly state that they don't want the AE used as a farming or power-leveling tool.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly I doubt it will take core of it instantly. I rather like the idea of placing AE mission doors into the actual game and bypassing the whole virtual world thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay. The problem is players using the AE in the lower level zones disrupting starting players experience.
The idea does not allow characters over level 10 to use that AE at all in the lower level zones.
What are the higher level characters that are in the lowest level zones to use the AE going to do?
They are going to leave the lowest level zones immediately to go to the AE where they can use it.
It will fix the situation with the spam pollution for AE teams in the lower level zones immediately. New characters will have to move to go to Peregrine Island to team with 50's in the AE if the first part is implemented.
If the second part is implemented as well characters below level 30 can't team with level 50's on AE missions at all.
It does instantly stop players from using the AE in zones that are lower than their characters level. So yeah, it does solve the problem instantly.
It doesn't "Destroy All Farms" instantly. The point of the thread is new player experience. These two steps go a long way to resolve that issue.
-----
I'll also add to this that the AE arc contact not be given to level 5 players. I was shocked when I dinged a character to level 5 yesterday and this contact popped up.
I was in Kings Row excited about dinging so I could go grab my Police Scanner and when I did "You have a new contact. AE Trainer (or some such) in Atlas!" I was like what? I can't believe that they are sending me back to Atlas at Level 5 intentionally - intentionally throwing me right into the maw of the garbage that goes on there.
That has to be changed. I don't see any reason why that contact needs to "request your presence" until at least level 30 or 40, if not 50.
You can go to the contact if you care at any time, but there is no reason to send a new character there at level 5. It was a bad idea to have the trainer there in the first place. That contact should have been in Peregrine Island and the highest level zone in the Rogue Ilse that has a AE (I don't play villains enough to know which is the highest below Granville).
The whole situation has Epimetheus ( http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanEpimetheus.html ) written all over it and it hasn't improved appreciably since MA release.
[ QUOTE ]
I am not questioning if the players should Abuse or not. What makes me sick is the tantrums of some people on the forum, posing as "enlightened", and judging that only they have the right to play as they want, and that their way is the only way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, please. Emotional reaction is emotional. The only person having a tantrum and passing judgements here is you.
There's a perceived problem and some proposals to solve it. You don't think it IS a problem? Bully for you. State your case without attacking the people you're arguing with. From your very first post in this thread you've been blustering around and shouting about how you shouldn't be repressed and how the know-it-alls shouldn't get to dictate how others play the game.
Guess what? This thread was never about dictating how people play. It was about regulating WHEN new players first get introduced to one facet of the game.
Seriously, considering how little time it takes to outlevel Atlas Park and Galaxy City, is it really some kind of elitist plot to control the hearts and minds of the playerbase to suggest that a newbie should get some introductory play under their belt before being tossed into the sandbox of the Architect? Is that REALLY a plot to force everyone to play MY way?
Get over yourself and READ what people are saying instead of REACTING to what you imagine people are saying.
"Posing as 'enlightened'". Give me a frigging break. How about if you expect me to keep my judgements to myself, that you keep yours to yourself, eh? Either that or you quote word for word where these people are doing this "posing" and where they're making these claims that they are so superior to everyone else. Back up your vitriol or shut up.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were going to change things about the zones, what would you do?
[/ QUOTE ]
The zones don't need to be changed, the players do.
If any new player would bother to read their mission text they'd realize there was more to the game than AP and AE. If they'd bother to look at the map and click the other tab they'd see there's more than one zone. Taking the AE out of AP won't fix stupid or lazy, but hey, they could take AE out of every zone for all I care.
Me, I'm going to CO when it comes out. Whether it sucks or not, at least it won't have AE and all the B.S. that seems to have accompanied it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is one of the things that I feared would happen.
See the "conspiracy" part of this post ::
https://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthre...ue#Post13740503
I'm wondering why you are posting here though. Your signature indicates that you have been playing WoW instead of CoX since "4-9-08". You even go on to indicate that CoX has been dead since that point.
CoX is alive albeit not so well since the AE was released.
[ QUOTE ]
Back up your vitriol or shut up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes Sir! Shutting Up. Wont hear a word from me anymore.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
[ QUOTE ]
Level gating it isn't quite as bad, but I think the easiest solution is to simply remove AE from the lowbie zones as already stated. Making the first one you encounter the one in Steel is a soft form of level gating that still allows lowbies the chance to participate. It also jives with the Invention system, which is formally introduced to a character at level 10 and with the first university being in Steel as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think my solution is good for several reasons; however, I see the point that you are making.
If this is the route that we were to go with this then I wouldn't have any AE/MA's until at least the level 20+ zones. For hero side, I mean Talos and IP. That goes for the "trainer" contacting you for the AE training arch as well - so they wouldn't contact you until level 20.
My reason in this is based on the fact that you indicated. That is to say that the "training" Universities are in the level 10-20 zones. I'd rather players didn't have a conflict between these two and that exposure is gradual and not sudden.
That is part of what is going on with the AE being in the lower level zones - sudden exposure.
If AE would start in the 10-20 zones then I would put it in Skyway on Heroside and not in Steel. Skyway needs more of a pull to get players there.
I still like my original idea, but removing the AE completely from the starting zones does solve the problem of AE use in the starting zones completely. And that is probably for the best.
[ QUOTE ]
I get how you enjoy the high reward, low effort of AE missions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Funny, most of the AE missions I play are tougher than standard content and yet don't give as much reward in general.
I've also seen junk missions that are just the opposite. It's what they players make of it. Please don't generalize for all of us.
Frak me. Another AE Doom thread?!
IBTD +1
[ QUOTE ]
Frak me. Another AE Doom thread?!
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not supposed to be.
This thread's supposed to be a discussion on improving the new player experience, which I think needed work before the MA even entered the game.
[ QUOTE ]
Frak me. Another AE Doom thread?!
IBTD +1
[/ QUOTE ]
No if you had bothered to read it you would realize it wasn't a doom thread.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
[ QUOTE ]
I'm using the one that applies to video games. Which one are you using?
[/ QUOTE ]
'building' whatever you want with a variation of an SDK.
Playing with the game instead of just playing the game.
[ QUOTE ]
You still go through the content in the same way, you just don't go through the world in the same way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interface changes can make a profound difference in play experiences.
While we're still bound by linear leveling, we aren't bound by a linear game progression. Playing any level of content you want, of any level of difficulty, with any team composition, whenever you want.
That's not the "same way" we've always done it.
[ QUOTE ]
The freakout is more due to the community structure being turned inside out, I'd say. It'd be much the same if Portal Corp was placed in Atlas. Except the word "bridge" would be coming up in complaints as often as "farm."
[/ QUOTE ]
Plopping a Portal Corps office in Atlas would also be a step toward a more freeform game by short circuiting the 'right' way to level.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
Except it really didn't transform the game. It just changed the point of it to farming.
[/ QUOTE ]
thanks for the confirmation I was indeed wasting my time.
Carry on.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you're proposing is actually more restrictive than simply removing the buildings from the lowbie zones. In the removal idea a player can simply choose to run to the nearest AE and go about their merry way the exact same way as before. Your idea will force them to run certain contacts or hit a certain level.
I believe something needs to change but I think it's too late to level-gate AE.
Edit: It's also too late to tie AE access to a Vet Reward. How would you like to buy a game called "City of Heroes: Architect Edition", get home and read a pop-up "Oh by the way, Architect is a Veteran's Reward you'll get in 3 months, enjoy!"
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I'm not proposing this. It's just an effort to think along the lines of what others are bemoaning in this thread without absolutely hamstringing everybody.
Personally, I think AE is fine the way it is. I don't see the need to remove it from the starter zones; if forumites are concerned that newbies are somehow missing out, maybe we should be creating new characters and inviting said newbies to regular teams rather than coming to the forums and trying to make the devs force others to play our way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see a lack of veteran forumites volunteering to form low level teams to help newbies along. They like to complain but refuse to be part of the solution.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages