Hmm...well, next to Willpower, Regeneration is the most powerful scrapper secondary set for scrappers.
So what was the problem again?
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Ah, so since some forum scrappers can solo AVs, scrappers are ALL too powerful and therefore shouldn't worry at all about INTRA-archetype balance? Look, if scrappers can overperform compared to other archetypes, then yeah, nerf scrappers or buff other archetypes. I haven't seen that to be the case, though. I looked into making an AV soloing blaster at one point, then realized that it would be TOO EASY, so didn't bother. Controllers solo giant monsters, which are still well out of reach of scrappers. A large forum presence of min-maxers in one particular class doesn't mean that's the most powerful class. It might also just be the most challenging.
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Nailed it.
But it's ok when an at that is designed to be weak solo in exchange for team ability actually outperforms the at that is supposed to be strong solo, because that is the at HE (talen) enjoys. Der.
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Yes it is. And many people have answered, "Regen does NOT need some debuff resistance." Sure, it would be NICE, it is WANTED, but it is NOT NEEDED.
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Defense debuffs were the Achilles heel of the SR set. They were given resistance to said debuffs out of balance concerns.
Recharge debuffs are the Achilles heel of the regen set. Why should they not be given similar treatment? One could use the same arguments against giving the SR set defense debuff resistance that you use. "Learn how to deal with it", or "pop a purple". But they gave them that change because it made it a better, more balanced set overall.
Again, why can regen not be given similar treament?
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The achilles' heal for Regen is and always will be burst damage. -Regen and -Recharge are different animals altogether, and arguing that their presence is necessary based on the so-called Achilles' Heal premise is inherently flawed for that reason.
Arguing that protection from -Regen/-Recharge is not needed is a far stronger argument IMHO, but it ignores the fact that /Fire was given -Recharge protection for exactly the same reasons stated by the OP.
Likewise, SR was given -Def Debuff resistance not because it was its achilles' heal, or because the set was gimp, but because defense debuffs obviated the set's chief mitigation. In other words, the debuff got around SR's mitigation in a way the dev's apparently thought wasn't in line with the preferred method of simply overcoming it. SR is reliant pretty much solely on defense - the scaling damage resists aren't really enough to count as effective mitigation, given that they aren't high enough early enough - and therefore was given protection from that obviating factor.
Regen is more of a mixed bag - three powers that give Regeneration, two heals, with DP doubling as a +hit point, and four other powers that give various other forms of mitigation (if a rez can be considered such). Nonetheless, situations with -Recharge and -Regen get around /Regen's main mitigation methods in exactly the same way as -Def got around SR's. These situations don't gimp /Regen. They obviate it.
I'm pretty much indifferent to whether /Regen gets these changes, mostly because I don't see how the set is underperforming without them. At best, I would give them a low priority and be very, very grateful to see their addition at some point.
But I don't see how Santorican's earned the ire and the mocking arrogance that I've seen proliferated in this thread.
What is this? The Defender forum?
EDIT - sorry, Val - this isn't necessarily directed at you... you just made the Achilles' Heal point that I wanted to address.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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But if you want to whip out the nerf bat, lets beat down the other ats that can solo av's (some faster than scrappers) that are not supposed to be as good a solo at as the scrapper, who is supposedly meant to be the strongest solo at.
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I'm not picking on you, Cyber_naut, but some of the perspectives displayed here about AVs is really skewed. When people say "other ATs can solo them faster," what they should be saying is "other powersets can solo them faster." Sure, a Rad/Sonic Defender will melt an AV. Try that with an Emp/, FF/, or Sonic/. Heck, I suspect Kin/ would even have trouble due to its clicks eating so much of its activation time.
Having said that, you can have a character that is strong at soloing AVs, but still be a poor at soloing overall. Most content in the game is not AVs, and overall Scrappers are some of the strongest for that content. Some specific sets may be stronger at a single aspect (AVs: Rad/Sonic, farming: Fire/Kin, etc), but Scrappers are better at running the entire gambit.
For most squishies, one word will add a plethora of soloing frustration: mez.
As for Regen... I'll stay out of that debate. I haven't played that set much in years. I think what you're really seeing is the effect of IOs on min/maxed builds.
[edit: Oh, about intra-AT balance, I think what Talen was getting at was that Scrappers are on the high end of the performance scale. If you balance around ATs being able to do between X and X+5, and Scrappers are all in the X+2 to X+4 range, then boosting X+2 to X+4 isn't exactly a priority. I'm not saying Regen doesn't have issues, but I can understand Talen's point.]
Lol
Achilles' heal, or Achilles' heel?
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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Defense debuffs were the Achilles heel of the SR set. They were given resistance to said debuffs out of balance concerns.
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That's not actually quite true. SR was given resistance to defense debuffs for the twin reasons that cascade failure was not an intended mechanical result combined with the fact that SR underperformed at that time and needed some sort of buff. Resistance to defense debuffs was not specifically intended to "close a hole" in SR's protections as such: the devs do not tend to think in those terms (at least, they did not back then).
At the time defense debuff resistance was formulated, the presumptive SR weakness was bad luck vs the random number generator. Basically (and I have PMs from that time period that state it directly) SR's intended weak spot was, to put it colloquially, that it "didn't always work" due to the randomness of its mechanics.
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Recharge debuffs are the Achilles heel of the regen set. Why should they not be given similar treatment?
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At virtually the same time the devs were formulating buffs to SR (this was circa I5) they were also specifically adding -regen debuffs to the game; prior to that such debuffs were practically non-existent. The notion that -recharge (outside of PvP) was Regen's "achilles heel" is a relatively new notion: it isn't a common perception until I9 (coincidentally or not when inventions are introduced) long after Regen had the basic structure it has today (which was basically I5).
SR still has an entire class of attacks for which it has *zero* protection of any kind under all circumstances, a situation that is mostly unique: non-positional psi. If it has an "achilles heel" its probably that. Defense debuffing and cascade defense wasn't an SR achilles heel: it was an achilles head, arms, legs, and torso. And SR is *still* weak against two other defense crackers that are if anything more common now than in the past: pets/turrets (which have base 75% tohit, not 50%), and tohit buffs (which were rare blue side, are more common red side, and are at least an order of magnitude more common in AE missions).
Would you like to trade -recharge resistance for having all pets and turrets to start packing -regen, all non-positional psi attacks debuff heal strength, and all critters with BU, Aim, and tactics to start debuffing Dull Pain's strength? I didn't think so.
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But I don't see how Santorican's earned the ire and the mocking arrogance that I've seen proliferated in this thread.
What is this? The Defender forum?
EDIT - sorry, Val - this isn't necessarily directed at you... you just made the Achilles' Heal point that I wanted to address.
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It's fine, I didn't take that as being directed towards me, being as though I support his suggestion.
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Lol
Achilles' heal, or Achilles' heel?
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Sigh. Stupid Freudian Slip.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Again I keep asking, why is anyone against this? Especially if you are a regeneration player? It seems backwards thinking to reject a buff? I mean yeah I'd understand arguing against a nerf, but a buff? I think some of you need to stop drinking the retard kool aid and start thinking a lot more clearly.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Again I keep asking, why is anyone against this? Especially if you are a regeneration player? It seems backwards thinking to reject a buff? I mean yeah I'd understand arguing against a nerf, but a buff? I think some of you need to stop drinking the retard kool aid and start thinking a lot more clearly.
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Hyperbole counter-example:
Integration should offer 75% res to all damage types.
DP should give +45% def to all types in addition to its heal and +MaxHP.
Instead of def/res, MoG should give the Scrapper +Untouchable.
If I proposed these suggestions, would you back them? Most likely not, because they're obviously broken. Of course, if you don't back them, then you stuck yourself in a tough spot: they're buffs, so why would you not back them?
Clearly, just because something is a buff doesn't instantly mean it's a good idea nor one that should be unanimously approved. There is more to keep in mind than just that. If it was as simple as "it's a buff, and thus a good idea," the game would be more unbalanced than it was at launch... and that's saying something.
(I'm attacking your logic here that if it's a buff, it should be supported. Basically calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a retard doesn't sit well with me.)
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(I'm attacking your logic here that if it's a buff, it should be supported. Basically calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a retard doesn't sit well with me.)
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Well said.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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(I'm attacking your logic here that if it's a buff, it should be supported. Basically calling everyone who doesn't agree with you a retard doesn't sit well with me.)
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There are a lot of people who believe there exists a meta-game called "squeeze the devs for stuff" whose progress is measured by how much buffs the playerbase convince the devs to grant. Obviously, for that segment of the player population, anyone arguing against any buff must be either a traitor to the cause, or insane.
It doesn't occur to them that game design discussions on the forums might revolve around what people debate are good design decisions for the game as a whole, without explicit regard for profit-motive.
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QR
Here are my two cents on it. My MA/Regen Scrapper that is at 50 fought a lot of Malta, and the Titans regularly landed a power that dropped my Regeneration to zero. Ummm, wut? Seems a tad ridiculous that this one power makes the Regeneration set not regenerate.
One extreme case, I suppose, but it is one thing that bothered me as a Regen Scrapper. With this buff, Regen Scrappers can keep doing what they're supposed to be good at, rather than have that be hampered. It's not like this buff is going to leave Regen overpowered... it's still going to be susceptible to alpha strikes and burst damage.
It might only be a QoL issue like Werner said, but it's a good idea, and merited by the set and game.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Dear Castle,
Please give every single armor set every form of mitigation because there can't be any type of weakness.
Sincerely,
Noobz McGee
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Dear Castle,
I know that Regeneration can, if played correctly, be the most powerful scrapper secondary in the game. However that isn't good enough for me. I've noticed that it has one minor weakness, and instead of taking the time to cover that weakness with IOs, like every other armor set in the entire game has to, I'd prefer if you just changed the set so that Regeneration has no weaknesses whatsoever.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Noobz McGee
P.S. Can someone please show me where the 'Spellcheck' button is?
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Did you two even read his post? What he asked for was completely reasonable. Every other Scrapper defense set that I can think of has some kind of debuff resists to whatever kind of buff it provides, and the numbers were completely reasonable. Its not like he asked for 100% resists to -regen/recharge.
Oh, and the Devs said (somewhere) when IOs were introduced that the game will not be balanced off of IOs, so, Aces, your point is completely invalid.
I'm going to agree with the "just because it is a buff doesn't mean you should automatically support it" idea here. I wouldn't want God mode, and that's why I'm playing a regen.
But in this case, all arguments considered, I still don't find this change to be unreasonable, overpowered, or anything at all that tips the balance. Sure, the set might not NEED it, and good players get around it, yada yada, but other sets have gotten buffs they didn't NEED either, that were still positive improvements that made a set more solid.
I'm not going to scream at the devs and take a "REGEN NEEDS BUFFS NOW!" attitude, but this is something I'd sign for as being a positive change that they can implement when appropriate.
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While this would be nice, at least the DA and FA -KB hole can be easily plugged with IOs. Regen has no such ability to cover the -regen and -recharge debuffs hole with IOs...
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Well, yes and no. You can add a whole lot of recharge or regeneration with IOs. You could easily call that plugging the hole. You could call Hasten plugging the recharge debuff hole. There are certainly options for dealing with it, and we all deal with it. So I'd say they're different sorts of issues, but not vastly different ones.
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While I agree with you in principle, I feel it is a matter of degree.
The -KB hole is plugged with a single IO, though I will admit that some utilize more for greater levels of protection. On the other hand, stacking +Recharge and +Regen in a build to make an appreciable difference requires numerous IOs to get set bonuses, which I feel is not an equivalent comparison.
Likewise, while Hasten and Health could be stated to fulfill this role, in lieu of IOs, and Acrobatics could be used to negate the -Kb issue, it is, again, a matter of degree.
Health, even fully slotted, could hardly be considered even a remotely effective counter to regen debuffs, and Hasten is not something that can be made perma without extremely expensive IO slotting and very specific, and generally sacrificial, build choices. In contrast, Acrobatics is a Toggle that can easily be run with simple end reduction SOs and functions continually.
As an addendum, I don't feel that /Regen is broken, nor do I feel that adding in -regen and -recharge resistance is vital to it's viability. I simply agree with the OP that it would make the set more viable and solid when in a situation where recharge and regen debuffs are prevalent, while not creating an imbalance between the secondaries. The fact that there are parallel examples of this in the other secondaries doesn't hurt the proposals validity either.
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Thats what Werner does, he walks into a thread and hits spineburst.
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If Werner is a Spines Scrapper in his forum personae, I must be the Dark Melee Scrapper. Either that or no one pays any attention to me even though I've pretty much been the one making most of the viable points that generally get obfuscated by the general rancor of forum posts.
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Thats what Werner does, he walks into a thread and hits spineburst.
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If Werner is a Spines Scrapper in his forum personae, I must be the Dark Melee Scrapper. Either that or no one pays any attention to me even though I've pretty much been the one making most of the viable points that generally get obfuscated by the general rancor of forum posts.
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Not true. Imo, your posts on the first page pretty much should have wrapped things up.
But, as with all things, people have different opinions, and with these being forums, they must be debated.
It's not so much that these buffs are bad idea, but that the premise to justify these buffs is faulty at best.
From the OP's original post:[ QUOTE ]
In conclusion end game brings a lot of recharge and regeneration debuffs which players rely on both for damage mitigation so the solution is to grant regeneration recharge and regeneration debuff resistance. Regeneration is by no means a terrible power set, but a great one that needs a bit more polishing, I hope that you take into consideration my proposal and apply it to a future update.
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From his concluding paragraph, he assumes that this proposed solution is the solution to deal with such debuffs. He also makes the assumption that the set "needs a bit more polishing." For the rest of experienced /regen players, we know it's not the only solution. Hell, some defense would help mitigate against these debuffs (if it can't touch you, it can't hurt you). Soft-controlling is another option to deal with debuffing mobs. Or simply outlasting the enemy with regen's heals and the scrapper's primary function to open a can of whup-[censored].
The fact that he assumes the set "needs" some improvement sounds a bit egotistical and ignorant of the full-capacities of the Regeneration set. Sure, many /Regen players would love to see these buffs implemented, but many of us are also realistic enough to understand that these are more wishlist items than balance issues. These are probably considered "wishlist" items because /Regen is still a top performing set that doesn't need a buff.
That's why many of the forum vets are explaining to him (and others) that the basis of his justification is misdirected. The fact that the OP or anyone else agreeing with him has yet to make such a post on the Scrapper Issues List seems to suggest that the OP really isn't aware that many of the scrapper players here already know, that there is no trust in the Scrapper Issues List, of that there is just a casual disregard for anything else that has come before and everything that is still here.
Case in point, JusticeisServed has already made a post on 04/23/09 for the Scrappers Issue List for the exact same problem of -recharge. I haven't seen the OP or any of his adherents making a post there. It seems that this whole threat is just for Santorican to grandstand on the Scrapper forum. Hey, he already sent a PM. He didn't really need to show it to all of us. But he did, and he wanted feedback. And guess what? The mixed responses have demonstrated that even though the buffs are desired, their implementation is still not completely justified.
Only read the first pages so not sure if this was covered or not.
Other sets have some kind of weakness. Some are huge, others are small. Invuln has that psi hole, same with fire but add toxic and KB to it as well. Dark has energy and the players blue bar. SR has a very small hole in a few psi attacks.
WP and Regen share a weakness. Debuffs. WP at least has decent defense numbers so that if the debuff is not an autohit, there is a decent chance it will miss. Regen has no built in defense so there is a decent chance it will hit.
The 2 debuffs that the OP spoke of are the worst for regen.
With WP if you get hit with -recharge, you sit and wait to attack, not a big dea. With regen you hope and pray that your current regen will hold up once you used your heals. Most times it does but a small bit of -recharge resistance would be very helpfull.
The other is -regen. With WP if you get hit with -regen you have your defense and resists to fall back on. With regen you have nothing to fall back on other than a little bit of s/l resists. The magnitued of the -regen is part of the problem. Mobs can toss around enough -regen to shut down normal regen and in some cases totally shut down IH. For this I could live with a decent amount of -regen resistance or a rework of mobs debuffs so that they shut down most AT but not regen or WP with a single debuff.
The OP is nuts.
Regen doesn't need -Regen Resistance because it has Recon and DP.
It doesn't need Slow Resistance because it has Instant Healing.
If you're having more trouble on your Regen than on another scrapper then you should slot or play better.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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It doesn't need Slow Resistance because it has Instant Healing.
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Care to explain this? It makes no sense at all.
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Thats what Werner does, he walks into a thread and hits spineburst.
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If Werner is a Spines Scrapper in his forum personae, I must be the Dark Melee Scrapper. Either that or no one pays any attention to me even though I've pretty much been the one making most of the viable points that generally get obfuscated by the general rancor of forum posts.
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Awww, i still love you Umbral. Even if I do think you come off as a bit snobbish sometimes. Still, when I'm making a new scrapper I usually search for your name and see if Umbral has done something already, or what tricks Umbral is using, or what Umbral thinks. 
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Only read the first pages so not sure if this was covered or not.
Other sets have some kind of weakness. Some are huge, others are small. Invuln has that psi hole, same with fire but add toxic and KB to it as well. Dark has energy and the players blue bar. SR has a very small hole in a few psi attacks.
WP and Regen share a weakness. Debuffs. WP at least has decent defense numbers so that if the debuff is not an autohit, there is a decent chance it will miss. Regen has no built in defense so there is a decent chance it will hit.
The 2 debuffs that the OP spoke of are the worst for regen.
With WP if you get hit with -recharge, you sit and wait to attack, not a big dea. With regen you hope and pray that your current regen will hold up once you used your heals. Most times it does but a small bit of -recharge resistance would be very helpfull.
The other is -regen. With WP if you get hit with -regen you have your defense and resists to fall back on. With regen you have nothing to fall back on other than a little bit of s/l resists. The magnitued of the -regen is part of the problem. Mobs can toss around enough -regen to shut down normal regen and in some cases totally shut down IH. For this I could live with a decent amount of -regen resistance or a rework of mobs debuffs so that they shut down most AT but not regen or WP with a single debuff.
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It was covered. It's just not true. Regen's weakness is burst damage. Debuffs are cross-powerset problems. Some powersets resist them better than others, but all are affected by them.
So arguing that Regen doesn't deserve resistance to the particular debuffs in question because they were intended to be its weakness is the equivalent to arguing that defense debuffs were intended to be the weakness of Super Reflexes - an argument that has been made and was put to bed by Arcanaville a couple pages back.
Now if you were to argue that Regen doesn't need resistance to -Regen/-Recharge because it isn't underperforming, then I'd have to agree.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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Because we know of so many */regens that solo AVs compared to the vast hordes of */SRs, */SDs, */WPs, and */Invulns. Of the actual AV soloers, */regen is probably the worst suited for it because it doesn't really have any internal damage mitigation to make better via IOs and pool powers.
[/ QUOTE ]So what you're saying is, nerf everyone until regen is good, then nerf regen?
I think any archetype that has a forum presence of AV soloists, TF soloists, and pylon soloists should stop trying to get dev attention.
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Or just bring up the one or two underperforming sets, that might be easier. Nice job inadvertently demonstrating that regen is lagging behind many sets.
But if you want to whip out the nerf bat, lets beat down the other ats that can solo av's (some faster than scrappers) that are not supposed to be as good a solo at as the scrapper, who is supposedly meant to be the strongest solo at.