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As most of you know I play a fire/regeneration scrapper that I love to death and recently I sent a PM to Castle outlining some solutions to regeneration lack of debuff resistance. Here is a copy of it and please let me know what you think of it and if there can be any ideas that can be improved with in reason.
Hello Castle,
I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
As you know regeneration is click intensive power set that relies on its click heals in order to mitigate incoming damage. This is where the recharge debuff resistance comes in handy, it would allow a player to keep their click heals recharging at a more constant rate. In end game there are quite a few enemies that are psychic and the secondary effect of psychic is -recharge, Carnival, Rikti, Arachnos, Clockwork are most of the enemies that are encountered late game that all have the ability to debuff a regenerators ability to have their click heals recharged. I would recommend to add this to Resilience in order to make it a more viable power to players, I'd also recommend granting the player around a 20 to 40% debuff resistance just like super reflexes' Quickness.
Another aspect to Regeneration is its passive regeneration ability. This is a very important ability as it allows the character to regenerate damage. Thus leading to regeneration debuff resistance, I find that in end game there are quite a few enemies that have huge regenerate debuff i.e. Rikti, Carnival of Shadow, and Praetorian Arch Villians just to name a few. Just as Super Reflexes uses defense as its primary damage mitigation, it has a large defense debuff resistance, upwards of 60%. I would recommend a magnitude of 60% regeneration debuff resistance granted to the player through the use of Dull Pain. It would work just like how Reconstruction grants Toxic resistance each click, except it would grant regeneration debuff resistance for the duration of Dull Pain.
In conclusion end game brings a lot of recharge and regeneration debuffs which players rely on both for damage mitigation so the solution is to grant regeneration recharge and regeneration debuff resistance. Regeneration is by no means a terrible power set, but a great one that needs a bit more polishing, I hope that you take into consideration my proposal and apply it to a future update.
Thank you
Santorican
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Dear Castle,
Please give every single armor set every form of mitigation because there can't be any type of weakness.
Sincerely,
Noobz McGee
Seriously, the set if fine the way it is. Your going to face enemies that counteract the effectiveness of your armors. That's life.
Dear Castle,
I know that Regeneration can, if played correctly, be the most powerful scrapper secondary in the game. However that isn't good enough for me. I've noticed that it has one minor weakness, and instead of taking the time to cover that weakness with IOs, like every other armor set in the entire game has to, I'd prefer if you just changed the set so that Regeneration has no weaknesses whatsoever.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Noobz McGee
P.S. Can someone please show me where the 'Spellcheck' button is?
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Dear Castle,
Please give every single armor set every form of mitigation because there can't be any type of weakness.
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Because */regen is packing so much damage mitigation in Resilience and MoG. Loads of sustained defense and resistance there, right? Please, please , try to at least know what you're talking about before you make a comment.
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Seriously, the set if fine the way it is. Your going to face enemies that counteract the effectiveness of your armors. That's life.
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It's not an issue of facing an enemy that reduces the effect of your armors (since regen doesn't actually have any armors), it's an issue of not having a fundamental defensive structure that every other armor set has. */Regen is the only set without any debuff resistance which is completely out of place since it is actually affected by some specific debuffs to a similar extent as */SR was before it received recharge debuff resistance. */SR wasn't hurt until it started getting hit, at which point it falls over rather quickly. */Regen is the same way with -recharge. It's not hurt by -recharge until it actually starts getting hit and then burns its recharge powers, at which point it's screwed.
Every other armor set has a method to decrease the effect of debuffs on its powers. Resistance itself resists resistance debuffs. Virtually all +def powers grant +def resistance to go along with it. */Invuln, */SR, */SD and */Fire all get recharge debuff resistance even though it largely serves only to provide a greater offensive resilience because recharge isn't used for survivability by those sets (less true for */Fire than the others b/c it gets Healing Flames). */Regen lives off of recharge: Instant Healing, Dull Pain, Reconstruction, and Moment of Glory. Fast Healing and Resilience add a rather paltry amount of additional survivability (especially Resilience, dear god). Integration is the only "real" survivability that you'll be able to dance around with when you're tagged with load upon load of -recharge, and that's less powerful than RttC. */Regen lives based on how fast it can recharge it's powers.
Honestly, I don't think Santorican really identified all of the problems with */regen that prevent it from actually performing as well as it should (meaning that it shouldn't take a top tier player to get a similar level of performance as any well slotted other build gets).
I like the suggestion sanc made. I've played all the scrapper secondaries, and while regen is good, with IO's and the ability for defense oriented secondaries like SR, SD, Inv, WP and even DA to achieve high levels of defense, regen has fallen to the rear of the pack. Add to that, the fact that regen requires the most attention and activity, while only providing at par survivability to these other sets, while actually falling behind at the top end, and I absolutely can see reason for some minor tweaks. If I'm getting similar survivability from sets, then I'm going to use sets that are easier to use, require less attention, and interrupt my attacks the least. Because of those drawbacks, I think it's reasonable to argue that regen should offer superior survivability, yet in reality it doesn't. You're on par with other sets but have to work harder to get there and get penalized with attack interuptions with all the clicks and in some cases redraw.
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I know that Regeneration can, if played correctly, be the most powerful scrapper secondary in the game.
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Please, show me this. Really. I want to see you demonstrate to me that */regen can actually be made to be more effective than softcapped */SR, */Invuln, */WP or any one of the other secondaries that regularly manages to generate better average performance in game as well as in spreadsheets. I'm very curious to see this.
I'm one of the few non-sword/Regens that has managed to complete the RWZ challenge. Show me an MA/Regen or a Fire/Regen that is, through sheer player skill rather than outright character disparity, capable of outsurviving every other secondary over the long term.
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However that isn't good enough for me. I've noticed that it has one minor weakness, and instead of taking the time to cover that weakness with IOs, like every other armor set in the entire game has to, I'd prefer if you just changed the set so that Regeneration has no weaknesses whatsoever.
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Like I said in my previous post, like regen is packing so much actual damage mitigation that it would completely imbalance it? The entire crux of the issue is that every other set with a similar weakness to a specific debuff is given the ability to resist that debuff to such an extent that it's no long quite such a big contributor to death. The fact that the debuff is present in noticeable quantities shouldn't mean that it's impossible to play the character.
Something else to remember: */regen has no native defense to actually avoid debuffs like most other sets do. It and */Fire are the only sets that actually get hit by virtually every effect aimed at them because they're incapable of dodging them reliably.
Having fought Ice Mistral recently, I can fully endorse this letter.
Also, well said Umbral.
They said they weren't going to resolve any balance issues with IO's.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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Please, show me this. Really.
[/ QUOTE ]I seem to recall that Super Reflexes wasn't nerfed 4 times because it was considered too powerful, whereas Regen was.
However, I was merely being flip and if I am wrong then I am wrong. I stand corrected.
On a serious note though, don't all of the armor sets have a weakness, a "kryptonite" if you will? If Regen was given debuff resistance wouldn't that make it the only set without such a weakness?
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They said they weren't going to resolve any balance issues with IO's.
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And this suddenly poses a question in my mind. Having played with IOs in mind since they were introduced I find I can't really judge a sets effectiveness if I don't use them. I never create an end build without IOs in mind. I can't speak for /regen. Let me state that right up front.
But I'm just wondering. When the comparisons get made across powersets. Are people comparing IO builds? SO? What?
If the devs aren't going to balance powersets around IOs but the players are going to use them then, well, where's the balance at all really? I mean, if you're going to include them in the game you damn sure better be aware of what the players are doing with them right? Seems like a very difficult job. To balance powersets around two vastly different methods of enhancement and have everything come out ok in the end.
Does /regen lag behind in a SO environment? Maybe the intent is to allow it to shine there? I don't know enough about the set to answer that. Just wondering what you guys thought.
The thing that Regen needs most is something that every other set needs as well. Lag, including intentionally generated animation lag, is a serious problem for any set that relies on click powers. It does seem that the devs are resorting to making longer animations to tune attack set balances, knowing that no power selection or invention set is out there to reverse these changes.
Self-heals, click powers, and inspirations should be instant and take absolute priority from a systems perspective. They should take effect even if some other animation is playing and some other power is queued. They should be something that exists outside the regular power activation queue.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Agreed. A res to -regen is not asking for a lot in a */regen set. Even /wp has res to -regen in fast healing. Although res to -rech can be gotten from the winter's gift IO, that also would be a good add on to the set. Those buffs would not be game breaking so I don't see why it wouldn't be considered. So yeah. -regen res in fast healing (it would be better suited in an auto power) and -slow res in resilance sound good to me.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
Would also love -KB in DA and FA.
)
I think this is a great suggestion, and only have 1 quick nitpicking comment to make.
At level 50, with all 3 toggles and all 3 inherents running, super reflexes actually has around 95% defense debuff resistance.
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Agreed. A res to -regen is not asking for a lot in a */regen set. Even /wp has res to -regen in fast healing. Although res to -rech can be gotten from the winter's gift IO, that also would be a good add on to the set. Those buffs would not be game breaking so I don't see why it wouldn't be considered. So yeah. -regen res in fast healing (it would be better suited in an auto power) and -slow res in resilance sound good to me.
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The resistance to -regen that willpower has is laughable, simply because everything with -regen pretty much floors you. It is a rare occurance when my willpower gets only partially regen debuffed. I could be facing 10 enemies and be generating over 100hp/sec, and I get hit by a broken NPC power and bam! 0.00% - 0.00hp/sec shows up on my combat stats.
Player powers with -regen are rather overpowered as well (traps
oison trap is the worst offender, but not the only one), and my only guess is this is to counteract an AV's enormous regen resistance. Simple solution: tone all -regen down SIGNIFICANTLY, and remove AV -regen resistance.
Give regen capped regen resistance(similiar to SR's capped defense resistance) probably in fast healing, integration, and resiliance.
Give willpower more, say 50% regen resistance, divided into fast healing and high pain tolerance.
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Please, show me this. Really.
[/ QUOTE ]I seem to recall that Super Reflexes wasn't nerfed 4 times because it was considered too powerful, whereas Regen was.
However, I was merely being flip and if I am wrong then I am wrong. I stand corrected.
On a serious note though, don't all of the armor sets have a weakness, a "kryptonite" if you will? If Regen was given debuff resistance wouldn't that make it the only set without such a weakness?
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The issue with regen back in the day wasn't really regen. It was regen combined with tough and weave.
As far as the other sets?
Super Reflexes has defense, defense debuff resistance, slow resists and scaling resists to damage.
Invuln has Resistance, and defense, has a self heal, slow resists, resistance to defense debuff, +to hit.
Dark Armor has resistance, defense, -to hit, self heal, +perception, and a damage Aura, and end drain resistance
Firey Armor has resistance, self heal (which grants toxic resistance), self end recovery, a build up type power.
Shield has defense, resistance, higher hit point, defense debuff resistance, Increase in damage aura that also debuffs foes damage, recharge debuff resistance, and a pbaoe superior damage attack.
Willpower has +hp, regen, resistance, defense, +perception, foe -to hit, +recovery passive, +regen passive
Regen has +regen passive, +recovery passive, +regen toggle two self heals, +resistance in resilience, 5% or so i believe.
Yes, I think what the OP suggested is reasonable.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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Agreed. A res to -regen is not asking for a lot in a */regen set. Even /wp has res to -regen in fast healing. Although res to -rech can be gotten from the winter's gift IO, that also would be a good add on to the set. Those buffs would not be game breaking so I don't see why it wouldn't be considered. So yeah. -regen res in fast healing (it would be better suited in an auto power) and -slow res in resilance sound good to me.
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The resistance to -regen that willpower has is laughable, simply because everything with -regen pretty much floors you. It is a rare occurance when my willpower gets only partially regen debuffed. I could be facing 10 enemies and be generating over 100hp/sec, and I get hit by a broken NPC power and bam! 0.00% - 0.00hp/sec shows up on my combat stats.
Player powers with -regen are rather overpowered as well (trapsoison trap is the worst offender, but not the only one), and my only guess is this is to counteract an AV's enormous regen resistance. Simple solution: tone all -regen down SIGNIFICANTLY, and remove AV -regen resistance.
Give regen capped regen resistance(similiar to SR's capped defense resistance) probably in fast healing, integration, and resiliance.
Give willpower more, say 50% regen resistance, divided into fast healing and high pain tolerance.
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Willpower also has resistance and defense though, regen does not.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
17% defense resistance is barely anything, and certainly won't protect your paltry ~15% defense to the energies.
Edit: sorry, read your post wrong.
Yes, Willpower has resists and defense, but regen has heals. Still regen is by it's nature more of a regen set than willpower, so it should have more regen resistance(capped resistance, in my opinion).
When I said willpower should have more (about 50% resistance to -regen) I meant more than it does now (25% I think), not more than regen.
I havent got too far with /Regen yet, but I think they are excellent suggestions, Santorican, and not in the least bit overpowered.
I came across the -Recharge debuff problem with my Fire tanker, who relied on Healing Flames against Psi and Ice damage. Fiery Armour now has some Recharge debuff resistance in Temperature Protection to make the power more attractive and cover that hole.
With this precedent, Resilience would be the perfect place for Regen to get similar resistance.
Adding Regen debuff resistance to Dull Pain adds an extra tactical eleemtn as to when to use that power, assuming its not perma'd.
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Virtually all +def powers grant +def resistance to go along with it. */Invuln, */SR, */SD
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Uhm, they ADDED the def debuff resistance to SR because things like quicksand completely negated it, and almost anything could cause cascading defense failure. In fact, before they added def debuff resistance to SR my claw/sr scrapper was perma debt for 30+ levels. Pretty much everything was debuffing defense to the floor.
Shield Defense gets some good debuff resistance, but not till later levels. It scales with level, so at low to mid levels it's rather cruddy.
Invuln gets 50% def debuff resistance. Ok, that's pretty good I guess.
Ice Armor gets 22% resistance to defense debuffs, so it can still suffer from cascading defense failure if it's hit frequently.
Ok, so most defense sets get resistance to debuffs. Keep in mind nearly everything for 50 levels debuffs defense. Off hand, I can only think of a handful of things which debuff resistance though and most are late game. How about recharge debuff resistacne? Off hand I can think of one, MAYBE two sets which grant it. And -recharge affects everyone, not just regen.
-regen is another debuff that's rather rare, and affects everyone. Regen just more so then others. Every set has a hole. Defense sets tend to have weak to non-existant resistance so they take the full brunt of a hit. Resistance sets generally are weak to psi, or get practicably no defense. Regeneration sets get hit often, but really don't have to worry bout it too often. It's only when they have huge spike damage that their lack of defense comes into play. Oh, and with IO's they can get respectable levels of defense anyhow. Their real hole is -regen debuffs.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Dark Armor has resistance, defense (but it's laughable unless you specifically IO out to get more defense), -to hit, self heal, +perception, and a damage Aura, and end drain resistance
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There, fixed that for you.
By the way, here's some food for thought. Just tinkering around with Mids, I managed to develop a thug/ta build which just with IO's, combat jumping, and maneuvers nets about 10% melee, 29% ranged defense and about 31% aoe defense. I'm sure someone with more determination then me could get around 30% defense to melee/ranged/aoe with a regen scrapper. I was only trying for aoe and ranged defense on that build.
30% defense to melee/aoe/ranged with regen's already high regeneration rate would be NASTY powerful.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
A lot of you seem to be missing the huge point, Regeneration has 0 debuff resistance to anything, it has no constant resistance or defense buffs outside of pool powers, and is reliently solely on click heals, 1 click defense, and passive regeneration.
Willpower has constant resistances, defense, regeneration, and small debuff resistances.
Super Reflexes has a huge debuff resistance to defense debuff because its main source of damage mitigation is defense.
So just like Super Reflexes, Regeneration needs debuff resistance to support its damage mitigation.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Dark Armor has resistance, defense (but it's laughable unless you specifically IO out to get more defense), -to hit, self heal, +perception, and a damage Aura, and end drain resistance
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There, fixed that for you.
By the way, here's some food for thought. Just tinkering around with Mids, I managed to develop a thug/ta build which just with IO's, combat jumping, and maneuvers nets about 10% melee, 29% ranged defense and about 31% aoe defense. I'm sure someone with more determination then me could get around 30% defense to melee/ranged/aoe with a regen scrapper. I was only trying for aoe and ranged defense on that build.
30% defense to melee/aoe/ranged with regen's already high regeneration rate would be NASTY powerful.
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Yes regeneration with pool powers and invention enhancements is extremely good, but forget inventions and do what Castle does, only use SOs and go roll an SR and Regeneration Scrapper and then tell me who is going to last longer.
Mind you, you can Soft cap a super reflexes scrapper using only SOs.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Dear Castle,
Please give every single armor set every form of mitigation because there can't be any type of weakness.
Sincerely,
Noobz McGee
Seriously, the set if fine the way it is. Your going to face enemies that counteract the effectiveness of your armors. That's life.
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I don't know who pissed in your cheerios today but please don't talk to me like I am some new player.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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A lot of you seem to be missing the huge point, Regeneration has 0 debuff resistance to anything, it has no constant resistance or defense buffs outside of pool powers, and is reliently solely on click heals, 1 click defense, and passive regeneration.
Willpower has constant resistances, defense, regeneration, and small debuff resistances.
Super Reflexes has a huge debuff resistance to defense debuff because its main source of damage mitigation is defense.
So just like Super Reflexes, Regeneration needs debuff resistance to support its damage mitigation.
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I'd have to say your missing the point. So far on my regen the ONLY thing I'm having trouble with is PvP against /poison masterminds and AE missions involving mobs with poison. And those problems are easy to fix. You can IO out to get decent levels of defense, you can use Lucks to get defense when it's actually needed... You have options other then complaining and asking for resistance to a debuff.
And very few sets get resistance to -recharge anyway.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
As most of you know I play a fire/regeneration scrapper that I love to death and recently I sent a PM to Castle outlining some solutions to regeneration lack of debuff resistance. Here is a copy of it and please let me know what you think of it and if there can be any ideas that can be improved with in reason.
Hello Castle,
I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
As you know regeneration is click intensive power set that relies on its click heals in order to mitigate incoming damage. This is where the recharge debuff resistance comes in handy, it would allow a player to keep their click heals recharging at a more constant rate. In end game there are quite a few enemies that are psychic and the secondary effect of psychic is -recharge, Carnival, Rikti, Arachnos, Clockwork are most of the enemies that are encountered late game that all have the ability to debuff a regenerators ability to have their click heals recharged. I would recommend to add this to Resilience in order to make it a more viable power to players, I'd also recommend granting the player around a 20 to 40% debuff resistance just like super reflexes' Quickness.
Another aspect to Regeneration is its passive regeneration ability. This is a very important ability as it allows the character to regenerate damage. Thus leading to regeneration debuff resistance, I find that in end game there are quite a few enemies that have huge regenerate debuff i.e. Rikti, Carnival of Shadow, and Praetorian Arch Villians just to name a few. Just as Super Reflexes uses defense as its primary damage mitigation, it has a large defense debuff resistance, upwards of 60%. I would recommend a magnitude of 60% regeneration debuff resistance granted to the player through the use of Dull Pain. It would work just like how Reconstruction grants Toxic resistance each click, except it would grant regeneration debuff resistance for the duration of Dull Pain.
In conclusion end game brings a lot of recharge and regeneration debuffs which players rely on both for damage mitigation so the solution is to grant regeneration recharge and regeneration debuff resistance. Regeneration is by no means a terrible power set, but a great one that needs a bit more polishing, I hope that you take into consideration my proposal and apply it to a future update.
Thank you
Santorican
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread