I miss the days before IOs and special debuff resistances.
The only thing you would be sacrificing in an SO'd SR scrapper would be a travel power.
There are actually quiet a few secondaries that grant recharge resistance, WP, SR, Electric Armor, Invulnerability, Ice Armor just to name a few and mind you that is quite a many. Most are above 20%. Not to mention that all of the above have different forms of mitigation where again outside of pool powers Regeneration does not.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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EDIT
Oh, and the invention system is there so players can improve their characters beyond the limits of their base capabilities. Why not use it? If you perceive a weakness and IOs can help remove it, why not do so before complaining?
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Why because the fact of the matter is, that the person developing the power sets does not balance around Inventions. He does it around SOs.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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The thing that Regen needs most is something that every other set needs as well. Lag, including intentionally generated animation lag, is a serious problem for any set that relies on click powers. It does seem that the devs are resorting to making longer animations to tune attack set balances, knowing that no power selection or invention set is out there to reverse these changes.
Self-heals, click powers, and inspirations should be instant and take absolute priority from a systems perspective. They should take effect even if some other animation is playing and some other power is queued. They should be something that exists outside the regular power activation queue.
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This is something I've been wanting for a very long time. If they truly want to make Regen a reactive set, then freakin' make it so that the set can be fully reactive. Don't penalize us for using long animated attacks.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
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A lot of you seem to be missing the huge point, Regeneration has 0 debuff resistance to anything, it has no constant resistance or defense buffs outside of pool powers, and is reliently solely on click heals, 1 click defense, and passive regeneration.
Willpower has constant resistances, defense, regeneration, and small debuff resistances.
Super Reflexes has a huge debuff resistance to defense debuff because its main source of damage mitigation is defense.
So just like Super Reflexes, Regeneration needs debuff resistance to support its damage mitigation.
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I'd have to say your missing the point. So far on my regen the ONLY thing I'm having trouble with is PvP against /poison masterminds and AE missions involving mobs with poison. And those problems are easy to fix. You can IO out to get decent levels of defense, you can use Lucks to get defense when it's actually needed... You have options other then complaining and asking for resistance to a debuff.
And very few sets get resistance to -recharge anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]actually, a good chunk of armor sets have it now. Invuln, SR, Ice, Fiery, and Shields. Adding some to Regen would not be quite out of line, if you ask me.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Dear Castle,
Please give every single armor set every form of mitigation because there can't be any type of weakness.
Sincerely,
Noobz McGee
Seriously, the set if fine the way it is. Your going to face enemies that counteract the effectiveness of your armors. That's life.
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I don't know who pissed in your cheerios today but please don't talk to me like I am some new player.
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"Please don't make it so appealing!" 
"conserning" indeed
My personal series of recommendations are as follows:
Make the click animations for */regen the absolute lowest tier where animations are concerned. If you're doing absolutely anything else except for standing there, they shouldn't animate. Anything should be able to suborn the precious animations seconds. Forcing a */regen to use up .924 seconds for Reconstruction and Dull Pain, 1.32 seconds for Instant Healing, and 2.772 seconds for Moment of Glory, especially considering how often their used mid-combat is disproportionately costly in terms of animation time, especially compared to every other secondary set out there that has, at most, 1 click power that is used for normal survivability.
Give */regen some -heal, -recharge, and -regen resistance. I don't care whether they're put into Fast Healing, Quick Recovery, Integration or Resilience (my vote would be to put all three of them into Resilience to actually make it a halfway desirable power; as it stands, it's less useful than Temperature Protection). -Heal and -regen resist aren't really altogether needed for all but a very minute number of situations, but, considering how fundamental */regen's heals and passive regeneration are to it's survival, I'd consider them needed, at least in a symbolic sense, much like */WP. The big one that's needed though, thanks to the evolution of */regen from a toggle set to a click set, is -recharge resist. Any -recharge resist would need to be significantly more than any other set out at the moment in my opinion. If the basic "the more it affects the set, the more the set can resist it" metric is applied, */regen should get at least 50% -recharge resist (-move and so forth wouldn't really need to be included). */Invuln, */SR, */SD, and */Fire all get various amounts of recharge resistance and each of them only has a single inherent survival power that is actually recharge dependent (Dull Pain, Practiced Brawler, Active Defense, and Healing Flames respectively). As previously stated, */Regen has 4. */Invuln and */Fire both get 20%. */SD gets 30%. */SR gets 40%. */Regen should get at least 50%, though I wouldn't be adverse to 60% or higher (or possibly just have it be 30% but increasable via slotting).
Remove or shrink the delays on all of the powers. It's only noticeable whenever you're playing on the knife's edge, but getting killed right after clicking Dull Pain (or Recon) because the heal didn't arrive fast enough but the power's activation did is aggravating beyond belief.
Give Instant Healing some kind of self heal component. Considering it's recharge, uptime, and thematic effect, it would make sense for Instant Healing to, at the very least, have a Reconstruction level heal in order to provide instantaneous damage recovery followed by the huge +regen boost. IH is one of the few "tier 9" class powers I know of that is generally activated when outside of a dangerous situation because it doesn't really do much to get you out of one: it just helps you recover from them faster. Giving it a heal would actually make it a bit more useful as a real emergency power.
Modify the +regen components of Integration and Instant Healing so that they actually respond to healing enhancements decently. Instant Healing is in the worst need of this because it's nearly pointless to slot it for +heal since the actual effect is tiny, but both of them would respond well to actually having the [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] tag removed from those portions so that it's actually fully worth it to enhance them. RttC is much bigger than Integration and isn't hobbled by castrated enhancements.
Those are some great suggestions, Umbral. Thumbs up!
I have a feeling that when Regeneration gets proliferated over to Brutes and (especially) Tankers that there could be a big shakeup with the set. As it is, I think Regeneration would be laughable on a Tank. Especially in an eight person group situation, Taskforce or otherwise.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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Because we know of so many */regens that solo AVs compared to the vast hordes of */SRs, */SDs, */WPs, and */Invulns. Of the actual AV soloers, */regen is probably the worst suited for it because it doesn't really have any internal damage mitigation to make better via IOs and pool powers.
I had a short exchange with Arcanaville concerning something along this lines (I'm reasonably sure that she ended it in disgust, but I was just arguing because I like arguing). The main problem with */regens performance when including IO sets and pool powers is that it operates using a completely different mechanism than every other set out there. No other defensive set is so heavily based around using damage recovery and virtually ignoring damage mitigation. Every other set out there (*/wp included) is actually based heavily around using mitigation with a very small amount of damage recovery. Because of the multiplicative effects of mitigation (re: every additional degree of defense or resistance you get, it's resisting proportionately more than the previous quantities you got), all pool and IO set mitigation bonuses have to be small so as not to be completely overpowered (assuming that the current state of defense and resistance IO set bonuses are balanced in the first place). Because of the interaction of mitigation and recovery (re: mitigation allows recovery to act on proportionately smaller amounts of incoming damage, functionally multiplying the effect of the recovery by the inverse of the mitigation), the recovery has to be kept small so as to not be completely overpowered. All of this adds up to */regen being a decent performer compared to the other power sets under non-pool, SO level comparisons but fall behind in IO and full build comparisons. The pool and IO contributions to damage recovery are paltry in comparison to what */regen is capable of doing natively and their contributions to mitigation are based around providing support to the existing sources of mitigation that the other sets have in order to actually generate appreciable increases. */Regen is pretty much screwed over by the basic balance setup of the game and the fact that it operates in a manner completely unlike any other set out there.
I have to agree with most of what Umbral said. I often times feel like my sword is more of a crutch than a weapon. Without parry, I don't imagine I could handle nearly the same level of enemies as I currently do.
Also, the excuse the devs gave about not balancing around IO's will only last for so long before the rest of the playerbase realizes that's just an excuse to be lazy as I already have. I don't see how it's at all reasonable or even possible to just outright ignore something that so dramatically alters the balance between not only Powersets, but whole Archetypes. Hell, I imagine the devs themselves would agree considering the Dominator changes already implemented.
And yet, I've seen builds for /regen AV soloers. I don't personally build to solo AV's, but I know it can be done. Here's my thoughts on it.
Regen has no built in mitigation to improve via IO set bonues and pool powers? Try regeneration. Sure using sets to boost regen may not work for it, but try tacking on defense. Just messing around, I did pretty good with a build using combat jumping and maneuvers to raise ranged and aoe defense (ignoring melee defense). I ended with 30% or so in each. And that was a build designed with keeping recharge slotting up there, as well as ensuring damage dealing powers were well slotted for acc/damage.
Someone who wanted to could probably cobble together a build for regen with 25 to 30% melee, ranged, and aoe defense. It's not soft capped, but with high regen rates it wouldn't have to be. It'd just have to slow down incoming damage. Outside of one shot kills, I don't see the problem here. And if your trying for defense, you probably racked up some resistances too. That lessens the chance of one shot deaths. As does having dull pain.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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Because we know of so many */regens that solo AVs compared to the vast hordes of */SRs, */SDs, */WPs, and */Invulns. Of the actual AV soloers, */regen is probably the worst suited for it because it doesn't really have any internal damage mitigation to make better via IOs and pool powers.
[/ QUOTE ]So what you're saying is, nerf everyone until regen is good, then nerf regen?
I think any archetype that has a forum presence of AV soloists, TF soloists, and pylon soloists should stop trying to get dev attention.
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And yet, I've seen builds for /regen AV soloers. I don't personally build to solo AV's, but I know it can be done. Here's my thoughts on it.
Regen has no built in mitigation to improve via IO set bonues and pool powers? Try regeneration. Sure using sets to boost regen may not work for it, but try tacking on defense. Just messing around, I did pretty good with a build using combat jumping and maneuvers to raise ranged and aoe defense (ignoring melee defense). I ended with 30% or so in each. And that was a build designed with keeping recharge slotting up there, as well as ensuring damage dealing powers were well slotted for acc/damage.
Someone who wanted to could probably cobble together a build for regen with 25 to 30% melee, ranged, and aoe defense. It's not soft capped, but with high regen rates it wouldn't have to be. It'd just have to slow down incoming damage. Outside of one shot kills, I don't see the problem here. And if your trying for defense, you probably racked up some resistances too. That lessens the chance of one shot deaths. As does having dull pain.
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I really don't think the focus of this thread should be what can solo AV's. Not only does very few of the actual scrapper playerbase do that, but the secondaries that *are* capable of it typically *aren't* regen. I really fail to see how it would be so unheard of that Regen get resistance to something shutting down their only form of mitigation, just like super reflexes and other sets already do.
On that note, I have a BS/Regen with soft capped melee from parry, and about 25% defense to ranged and AOE, with 700ish % regen, perma dull pain, and 130% recharge when hasten is going. He's really pretty good, and I enjoy playing him.
But my DB/Willpower with 40% S/L defense, 50% S/L resistance, and 35-38% defense to all other elements (except psionics which he has 30% defense and 31% resistance too), capped HP, resistance debuffs, mez resistance to damn near everything, regen out the wazoo, and 60% recharge simply blows him out of the water and requires next to no thought process on my part beyond lining up combos. No remembering parry. No clicking reconstruction. No gauging if I need to MoG for this encounter. Nothing. No thought, what so ever, and he's still better at everything.
In regards to builds using SOs, which this game is balanced around, Regeneration ranks as one of the top if not the top performing secondary for scrappers.
Now once you start adding in the IO system, we see that Regeneration doesn't get as much direct benefits to its set as other secondary sets would. This is not to say that Regen doesn't get much benefit (the set can get some pretty noticeable benefits from IOs), but the same amount of "effort" to pimp out a Regen build would see a better "return" on other sets over Regen.
Take that as you will.
Now once you start mentioning AV Soloing, the RWZ Challenge, and other high-end challenging scenarios, then all comparisons start to get skewed. Internal balance is not, and should not, be based around these scenarios. That's taking Olympic-level standards to all athletes from pee-wee summer league and from world competition circuits and everything inbetween.
Of course, I would be happy if Regen got some buffs, since I play one. But do I think the set needs it? Not really. What about scenarios where I would need to use some buffs? Then I'll grab myself a defender. Simple enough.
Still whining over more buffs needs for Regen? Get native KB protection for DA and FA, and then maybe I'll listen.
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A lot of you seem to be missing the huge point, Regeneration has 0 debuff resistance to anything, it has no constant resistance or defense buffs outside of pool powers, and is reliently solely on click heals, 1 click defense, and passive regeneration.
Willpower has constant resistances, defense, regeneration, and small debuff resistances.
Super Reflexes has a huge debuff resistance to defense debuff because its main source of damage mitigation is defense.
So just like Super Reflexes, Regeneration needs debuff resistance to support its damage mitigation.
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I'd have to say your missing the point. So far on my regen the ONLY thing I'm having trouble with is PvP against /poison masterminds and AE missions involving mobs with poison. And those problems are easy to fix. You can IO out to get decent levels of defense, you can use Lucks to get defense when it's actually needed... You have options other then complaining and asking for resistance to a debuff.
And very few sets get resistance to -recharge anyway.
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Umm you still don't get it. The idea is to not need IOs. Every set has powers that grant res to debuffs that would prevent them from what they do best and what they survive on. All sets except /regen. You act like the OP is asking for a 90 second MOG based on the way its set up now.(that would rock!) I have been in plenty of situations that I needed a heal and all my power were little dots. That sucks. And what is the problem with /regen being resistant to, of all things, -regen effects. Is that really an absurd idea? You really can't look at this logically and object to this. There shouldn't even be an argument about this. This makes so much sense, every post should be a quote from the Op with a reply of "this", "/signed", "agreed". Ok, time to calm down this morning and head to work.
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
On the main note of regens lack of parity to other scrapper secondaries, in that it lacks the -secondary debuff resistance. I agree regen is not on the level. After the original debuffs to regen I think the devs still fear what a regen can be, clearly some of this forum shares that fear. That said, I seem to recall a time when Super Reflexes was at a similar level to regeneration. Super Reflexes has since been buffed in the way that we request Regen also be buffed.
I have seen some use the arguement that each set should have a weakness...fair enough. You say defence's weakness is CDF (haven't ever seen this happen or seen anyone curse it in general play, but i'll take your word for it), what about the other secondaries? I don't think there is an equivocal or as prevalent kryptonite as -recharge or -regen or a large burst of damage. It's really not a perfect storm where these two or three attributes come into play at the same time, it's something that can and frequently does happen every play session. It only takes one.
Another argument was that -regen and -recharge affect everyone not just regens. Therefore you can assume that those are the most common debuffs because they can easily have the desired effect on any AT, blaster, troller or otherwise and a character whose has those weaknesses would find themselves in a pickle the most often.
Slightly off topic, the debuffs to enemies that many secondaries have are not existent in regen. WP has a easily enhanced -acc aura that easily stacks with other melee defences. Fiery Aura has...fiery aura which typical to all things fire has a nice -HP debuff that stacks with all things damage. It's certainly not the rule to the system but it's not to be forgotten.
Getting back to the point of the matter running regen wide open with Dull Pain and IH will be entirely negated when hit with a -regen debuff. That is a hole that at least deserves a little patching.
Roxy On DA...Finally!
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Umm you still don't get it. The idea is to not need IOs.
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Then congradulations, Regen doesn't need IO's. Not unless your trying to do things solo which were never intended to be done solo. Pylons? Intended to be fought by a team, so of course you'll need IO'd builds to pull soloing one off. AV's/GM's? Again, intended to be fought by a team (or six) so of course you'll need to IO out your build to solo them. Soloing a TF? Once again, not intended to be done. TF's are balanced around a TEAM of the minimum required players. If your trying to solo them, of course you'll need all the IO set bonuses you can get. Fighting +5 (or higher) enemies? Wow that was so not intended. Purple Patch anyone?
In short, unless your going for the insane stuff that was never intended, you do NOT need more then SO's and what /regen already has.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I have seen some use the arguement that each set should have a weakness...fair enough. You say defence's weakness is CDF (haven't ever seen this happen or seen anyone curse it in general play, but i'll take your word for it),
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I have seen it, frequently in fact. Back in issue four Madam Enigma would die quite frequently. So often in fact that I was in constant debt from level 5 to level 33 or so. Yes, you read that right. For 28 levels there wasn't a single moment when Madam Enigma didn't have debt. Practicly everything out there debuffs defense. And they do so quickly. How quickly? An average of 7.5 defense per hit of most attacks out there. This quickly chips away your defense. And if something has flashbang grenades? That's a -30 defense. A single quicksand was pretty much entirely negating /sr's full capabilities.
By comparison, I just ran a few missions against mobs I know have -regen and use it frequently. Without using instant healing, they couldn't completely shut down my regen rate. Oh yes, and reconstitution can't be affected by things that reduce your ability to heal others. Only by reduction in one's ability to be healed. Of which there's dang few things out there.
How much regen did I retain? Well, /poison debuffs as used by an enemy mob reduced me from 17.41 health per second to 6 or so health per second. Keep in mind that's with health, fast healing, and integration as my only sources of regen right now. I'll have to make a custom mission with things like dark miasma being used to test their ability to nuke my regeneration, but so far I'm only seeing one real issue.
That issue would be the freaking level 20 arc that marks the last contact mission set where you fight Vahzilok. Yes, I'm talking about the wasting disease temp power. The power that pretty much shuts down all regeneration you have access to, and nearly completely shuts down endurance recovery. Even that didn't really stop me with my /regen. -Recharge doesn't stop me (although it can make me sweat a little at times). I just have to time when I use my heals more.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
My main question is why are you complaining about regeneration getting a debuff resistance buff? Is it going to hurt any of your characters?
I'm not even asking for huge power changes, just small debuff resistance added to Regeneration. All other power sets have debuff resistance, why can't Regeneration have it?
Yes we know inventions blah blah blah, okay, but again I ask, why not give Regeneration debuff resistance?
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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In short, unless your going for the insane stuff that was never intended, you do NOT need more then SO's and what /regen already has.
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So with that thought process I guess Super Reflexes doesn't need its 95% defense debuff resistance. Because after all the cure to any secondary's problem is to team.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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In regards to builds using SOs, which this game is balanced around, Regeneration ranks as one of the top if not the top performing secondary for scrappers.
Now once you start adding in the IO system, we see that Regeneration doesn't get as much direct benefits to its set as other secondary sets would. This is not to say that Regen doesn't get much benefit (the set can get some pretty noticeable benefits from IOs), but the same amount of "effort" to pimp out a Regen build would see a better "return" on other sets over Regen.
Take that as you will.
Now once you start mentioning AV Soloing, the RWZ Challenge, and other high-end challenging scenarios, then all comparisons start to get skewed. Internal balance is not, and should not, be based around these scenarios. That's taking Olympic-level standards to all athletes from pee-wee summer league and from world competition circuits and everything inbetween.
Of course, I would be happy if Regen got some buffs, since I play one. But do I think the set needs it? Not really. What about scenarios where I would need to use some buffs? Then I'll grab myself a defender. Simple enough.
Still whining over more buffs needs for Regen? Get native KB protection for DA and FA, and then maybe I'll listen.
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There are plenty of enemies in normal game that have -regeneration and -recharge, both of which are regenerations huge weaknesses. This thread isn't about well if you need help then hop on a defender, it is about why Regeneration needs some debuff resistance. I continue to point out that ALL other secondaries have debuff resistance, and to your comment about getting knock back protection it is easy to acquire that with acrobatics, and I do believe that Castle mentioned his concern with having to take a power to be viable, back on topic, please show me a power that offers recharge debuff resistance or regeneration debuff resistance and then your argument will be valid.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
I dont like /regen for a lot of reasons Umbral stated. I find it to be clunky, and with no -recharge def, that is essentially the beginnnings of its cascading "def" failure.
It should have -recharge def to keep its sinosoidal green-bar somewhat consistant in its ebs and flows. Having the clickies up when need is the lifeblood of the set- resiliance is a good place for it.
Put -regen in reconstruction (like its poison def) if you have to or in integration, but give it some.
If -recharge isn't given, maybe make IH and MoG rechage at constant rates, yet still effected by +rech enh.
I like the actual INSTANT HEALED idea of IH-- maybe set the healing to (dunno) 400% unmodifiable and the slotting effect how much you are healed.
-Heal resist in fast healing and resiliance (20% in both?)
Edit: clarity
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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Because we know of so many */regens that solo AVs compared to the vast hordes of */SRs, */SDs, */WPs, and */Invulns. Of the actual AV soloers, */regen is probably the worst suited for it because it doesn't really have any internal damage mitigation to make better via IOs and pool powers.
[/ QUOTE ]So what you're saying is, nerf everyone until regen is good, then nerf regen?
I think any archetype that has a forum presence of AV soloists, TF soloists, and pylon soloists should stop trying to get dev attention.
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No he is saying to give regeneration a buff and he is pointing out that Regeneration sucks when it comes to AV soloing.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Dark Armor has resistance, defense (but it's laughable unless you specifically IO out to get more defense), -to hit, self heal, +perception, and a damage Aura, and end drain resistance
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There, fixed that for you.
By the way, here's some food for thought. Just tinkering around with Mids, I managed to develop a thug/ta build which just with IO's, combat jumping, and maneuvers nets about 10% melee, 29% ranged defense and about 31% aoe defense. I'm sure someone with more determination then me could get around 30% defense to melee/ranged/aoe with a regen scrapper. I was only trying for aoe and ranged defense on that build.
30% defense to melee/aoe/ranged with regen's already high regeneration rate would be NASTY powerful.
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Yes regeneration with pool powers and invention enhancements is extremely good, but forget inventions and do what Castle does, only use SOs and go roll an SR and Regeneration Scrapper and then tell me who is going to last longer.
Mind you, you can Soft cap a super reflexes scrapper using only SOs.
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Yes, you can soft cap an SR scrapper only using SO's if your sacrificing offense to get pool powers. My SR scrapper currently isn't soft capped, and does equally well to my /regen scrapper who's half the level. So I'm guessing as I get more tools in my /regen's belt I'll do better and better.
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Oh, and the invention system is there so players can improve their characters beyond the limits of their base capabilities. Why not use it? If you perceive a weakness and IOs can help remove it, why not do so before complaining?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History