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Umm you still don't get it. The idea is to not need IOs.
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Then congradulations, Regen doesn't need IO's. Not unless your trying to do things solo which were never intended to be done solo. Pylons? Intended to be fought by a team, so of course you'll need IO'd builds to pull soloing one off. AV's/GM's? Again, intended to be fought by a team (or six) so of course you'll need to IO out your build to solo them. Soloing a TF? Once again, not intended to be done. TF's are balanced around a TEAM of the minimum required players. If your trying to solo them, of course you'll need all the IO set bonuses you can get. Fighting +5 (or higher) enemies? Wow that was so not intended. Purple Patch anyone?
In short, unless your going for the insane stuff that was never intended, you do NOT need more then SO's and what /regen already has.
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Huh? No set *needs* IOs.
How is a /regen being res to -regen effects gonna allow them to fight +5?
*on mothership raid*
Joe */regen scrapper: Come on, Rikti Magus! I have res to -regen now! You can't defeat me like you did all those other heroes and villains inside the bowl while they were being buffed by every buffing AT type in the game! Come fight me! [/sarcasm]
Having -regen res on */regen isn't asking for too much. Nor will it be game breaking. You still will take the hard hits. You still will watching your HP bar trying to time when to click what heal. It wasn't game breaking for invul to get res def debuff, res -end, or res to slow. One could argue that invul didn't need those buffs. FA got res to -slow. They can't slow down my healing flames anymore so time to solo AVs right? EA got a heal added to nrg absorption so EA is now the new "the uber"? [/sarcasm]
This is not an issue making an uber alt. This is pointing out a hole that shouldn't be there based on the theme of the set. And, so you say, if -regen isn't as dominant as other debuffs, then that's more of a reason it shouldn't be a problem to add res to -regen to /regen.
What puzzles me the most is why are you so against this?. Why would anyone be so against this?
"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
I have no idea, most people usually like buffs to power sets and it seems like the only argument that is used is, well you have inventions and if you don't like it then team. I'm going to keep pushing for this buff, as I have to keep pointing out all scrapper secondaries have debuff resistance of some kind.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Just a small suggestion but - I've always thought that Resilience should be a scaling Resistance power for enemies within range. Up to ten enemies, possibly? Only the scale is backwards of say, a Soul Drain. You get a tiny bit with one enemy, but near the tenth enemy you get the most Resist from Resilience. Change the power to a toggle if it must.
That would also be a good place to put the Taunt aura in if it ever gets ported over to Tanks and Brutes.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
I'm not sure tankers would get regeneration it just doesn't seem fitting, I don't know maybe its me haha.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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Because we know of so many */regens that solo AVs compared to the vast hordes of */SRs, */SDs, */WPs, and */Invulns. Of the actual AV soloers, */regen is probably the worst suited for it because it doesn't really have any internal damage mitigation to make better via IOs and pool powers.
[/ QUOTE ]So what you're saying is, nerf everyone until regen is good, then nerf regen?
I think any archetype that has a forum presence of AV soloists, TF soloists, and pylon soloists should stop trying to get dev attention.
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No he is saying to give regeneration a buff and he is pointing out that Regeneration sucks when it comes to AV soloing.
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I'd be careful with that kind of argument. I'm willing to bet there's many more regen folks soloing AVs than invul, simply because regen is about 3568* times more popular.
*Approximate estimation. It could be 3567, or 3569.
That being said, I'm definitely for regen and recharge resistance for Regen, you can even throw in a change to MoG activation time (while keeping the cool animation, just make it so you can attack or move like toggles). It's just the crazy arguments I'm against. 
I agree with the OP. He has a good point and both his suggestions would improve the playability of the set without creating any imbalance.
And shame on the following posters who try to ridiculize his post, showing their lack of knowledge of the scrapper secondaries. Guys seriously, learn about the game before laughing at others.
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Would also love -KB in DA and FA.
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(I agree also^^)
QR
Not really sure this is needed. With strictly SOs, Regen wipes the floor with most of its sibling armor sets. It's only these days when defense sets have been given an almost absurd bounty that we think of Regen as lagging behind.
For my money, I would prefer to have IO set bonuses that were stronger. Defense sets get these overpowered buffs from IOs, why can't sets that depend on healing/regen? If heal sets had much stronger boosts to +regen, +health, and +resistance, I don't think Regen would lag behind after the IO race is over.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Would also love -KB in DA and FA.
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(I agree also^^)
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While this would be nice, at least the DA and FA -KB hole can be easily plugged with IOs. Regen has no such ability to cover the -regen and -recharge debuffs hole with IOs, and it shouldn't have to. Regen should have inherent resistance to these debuffs just like every other secondary has some sort of debuff resistance.
+1 vote for the Santorican Movement.
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The only thing you would be sacrificing in an SO'd SR scrapper would be a travel power.
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... As well as, you know, your ability to attack.
Unless, there's something I'm missing, you have to skip Fitness to softcap with SOs. 3 slotting everything in SR, + CJ, Weave and Maneuvers, it falls 2.3% short. Adding Stealth does it.
So that's 7 toggles, giving 2.21 end use per second while your base recovery is 1.67s. With 2 end red in each toggle, you break even. So you have to slot 3 end red in each toggle if you want to recover any endurance at all, spending 6 slots in 7 toggles... Yeah, you're probably not going to attack except while CP is up, which is a third of the time at best as there's no room for Hasten.
Again, unless there's something I'm missing, softcapping SR with SOs seems to be unrealistic. It also looks like there's plenty of room for a travel power, the main problem being endurance usage and slots.
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I think any archetype that has a forum presence of AV soloists, TF soloists, and pylon soloists should stop trying to get dev attention.
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You realize that in terms of sheer power with IOs that scrappers are middle of the pack, right? That there are several ATs that can not only solo AVs, but do so faster and laugh at scrappers?
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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Dark Armor has resistance, defense (but it's laughable unless you specifically IO out to get more defense), -to hit, self heal, +perception, and a damage Aura, and end drain resistance
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There, fixed that for you.
By the way, here's some food for thought. Just tinkering around with Mids, I managed to develop a thug/ta build which just with IO's, combat jumping, and maneuvers nets about 10% melee, 29% ranged defense and about 31% aoe defense. I'm sure someone with more determination then me could get around 30% defense to melee/ranged/aoe with a regen scrapper. I was only trying for aoe and ranged defense on that build.
30% defense to melee/aoe/ranged with regen's already high regeneration rate would be NASTY powerful.
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No, you didn't fix it for me. You fixed it to help illustrate your point. My point was that it has it, no matter how laughable, it has it. Regen does not. As far as IO's as others have pointed out, the sets aren't supposed to be balanced around IO's.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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And yet, I've seen builds for /regen AV soloers. I don't personally build to solo AV's, but I know it can be done. Here's my thoughts on it.
Regen has no built in mitigation to improve via IO set bonues and pool powers? Try regeneration. Sure using sets to boost regen may not work for it, but try tacking on defense. Just messing around, I did pretty good with a build using combat jumping and maneuvers to raise ranged and aoe defense (ignoring melee defense). I ended with 30% or so in each. And that was a build designed with keeping recharge slotting up there, as well as ensuring damage dealing powers were well slotted for acc/damage.
Someone who wanted to could probably cobble together a build for regen with 25 to 30% melee, ranged, and aoe defense. It's not soft capped, but with high regen rates it wouldn't have to be. It'd just have to slow down incoming damage. Outside of one shot kills, I don't see the problem here. And if your trying for defense, you probably racked up some resistances too. That lessens the chance of one shot deaths. As does having dull pain.
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Madam, you do realize that I am one of those very same */regen AV soloers that has 30% +def to all values and an optimized attack string? I can make my case from a very strong place: I'm one of the few that actually does it. I know it's few because I've had more */regens than I can count ask me how I do it. They've copied by build and still had problems because their skill couldn't make up for it.
As to the SOs only as a balance consideration question, the powersets are also balanced exclusive of pool powers. It's not just an issue of */regen getting less from IOs than anyone else (and this is true, if you think getting 20% +regen when you're already packing 600% +regen is actually worth it, you're hallucinating, especially when you're packing no mitigation to multiply it). */Regen also gets less from all of the pool powers that exist. Everyone else has access to a substantive self heal, though it's harder to use, and low value +def, low value specialized +res. None of those are as useful to a build that is built around damage recovery rather than mitigation. Community damage mitigation resources have to be set low because they're built around keeping mitigation sets from being completely overpowered. Without factoring in IOs at all, */Regen falls behind all of the other sets when you start adding in the Fighting Pool, and Fitness Pool. Fire and Shield start becoming better survivability sets when you actually factor in pool powers, and they're both supposed to have sub-standard survivability to account for their additional offensive capabilities, which, going by basic design, is actually supposed to be more costly to the powerset than if gotten through an outright damage powerset.
<QR>
Regen is just fine, #1 out of the box for the soloing scrapper, and played sensibly is not over shadowed on teams.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Regen is just fine, #1 out of the box for the soloing scrapper, and played sensibly is not over shadowed on teams.
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Regen is not bad. It allows under-20 content to actually be enjoyed on its own terms, rather than trying to rush past it to get to 22 when the real game opens up. Once the real game opens up, its reliance on click heals makes it nervous to play and uniquely suffering from animation issues and lag. Hasten is a must.
Compare Willpower. You still have to struggle to get to 20, and I'd recommend postponing non-essential toggles until 24 and 30, myself. Once you get all that stuff in place, the set becomes almost worry free and a lot more relaxing to play.
It seems to me that Regen (and other sets that depend on click powers, like Fire Armor) are due for a buff, if only to get rid of animation and lag issues.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I had a short exchange with Arcanaville concerning something along this lines (I'm reasonably sure that she ended it in disgust, but I was just arguing because I like arguing).
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Actually, my last response to you went unanswered. If you'll recall, your last question to me revolved around whether I intended to expand on the amount of debuffing that the damage mitigation spreadsheet included, and I responded that it was unlikely I was going to add very sophisticated debuff computations, as they would have made an already borderline spreadsheet too unwieldy.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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I had a short exchange with Arcanaville concerning something along this lines (I'm reasonably sure that she ended it in disgust, but I was just arguing because I like arguing).
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Actually, my last response to you went unanswered. If you'll recall, your last question to me revolved around whether I intended to expand on the amount of debuffing that the damage mitigation spreadsheet included, and I responded that it was unlikely I was going to add very sophisticated debuff computations, as they would have made an already borderline spreadsheet too unwieldy.
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Eh, I was pretty sure I sent you a PM back actually detailing why I think it's important, but that's what I get for sending another PM rather than just using the reply function (which I really wish would allow for better quoting...).
Quick reply to multiple posts to save time.
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I am an avid regeneration scrapper player and was thinking about a small buff to regeneration in the form of recharge debuff resistance and regeneration debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]People that solo AVs need buffs.
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And yet, I've seen builds for /regen AV soloers.
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Scrapper AV soloing is completely irrelevant to intra-archetype balance concerns.
AV soling is just a line, survivability level X. It turns out that ALL the secondaries can achieve survivability level X.
If you know that 10 people all doing the same job at the same company all make more than $50,000 per year, does that tell you that their salaries are the same?
Nope. It tells you nothing about their comparative salaries.
That */Regen can solo some AVs tells you absolutely nothing about intra-archetype balance.
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So what you're saying is, nerf everyone until regen is good, then nerf regen?
I think any archetype that has a forum presence of AV soloists, TF soloists, and pylon soloists should stop trying to get dev attention.
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Ah, so since some forum scrappers can solo AVs, scrappers are ALL too powerful and therefore shouldn't worry at all about INTRA-archetype balance? Look, if scrappers can overperform compared to other archetypes, then yeah, nerf scrappers or buff other archetypes. I haven't seen that to be the case, though. I looked into making an AV soloing blaster at one point, then realized that it would be TOO EASY, so didn't bother. Controllers solo giant monsters, which are still well out of reach of scrappers. A large forum presence of min-maxers in one particular class doesn't mean that's the most powerful class. It might also just be the most challenging.
I just happen to like scrappers. I like beating things up face to face. I did that in another MMORPG where the scrappers were by far the weakest archetype. I do it here where they seem to be in pretty good balance. Hell, I do it in first person shooters, such as using a cheat code in No One Lives Forever 2 so that I could do most of the game using the scimitar instead of machine guns. It's just so much more visceral carving people up. Guts guts guts! Mwahahahahaha! Why are you looking at me like that?
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But my DB/Willpower... simply blows him out of the water and requires next to no thought process on my part beyond lining up combos. No remembering parry. No clicking reconstruction. No gauging if I need to MoG for this encounter. Nothing. No thought, what so ever, and he's still better at everything.
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Right. I think that's the issue. I don't think it's a big issue, in that some people LIKE an interactive secondary, so at best, I'd consider it only a minor drawback from a balance perspective. But it's still a minor drawback because interactivity gives a wider spread of performance, and therefore, given that peak performance is at best average, average performance is lower.
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In regards to builds using SOs, which this game is balanced around, Regeneration ranks as one of the top if not the top performing secondary for scrappers.
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In solo situations, this might be true. It's a great solo secondary even with just SOs. But I've had great success with the other secondaries as well. And Regen isn't so great on teams, I hear, since its mitigation doesn't scale up at all to match the threat.
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In short, unless your going for the insane stuff that was never intended, you do NOT need more then SO's and what /regen already has.
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Agreed, but completely irrelevant to intra-archetype balance concerns. Again, as with can solo AVs, you seem to just be defining a line of performance, and stating that Regen is over that line. Your line is more like can handle non-insane content with SOs. All scrappers are over that line, so this point is completely irrelevant to a discussion of intra-archetype balance.
And as buffs go, -regen resistance and -recharge resistance are VERY low on the totem pole. I suspect I'll barely notice the difference. So if Regen scrappers lag behind, they'll probably still lag behind. If they're currently average, they'll probably still be average. This is a tiny buff, more of a quality of life issue than anything.
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Would also love -KB in DA and FA.
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(I agree also^^)
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I think this is in a similar boat, yes. I see this as just a quality of life issue, and not much of an overall power level issue. There are so many was to plug this hole that this really won't make any difference in the overall power level of Dark Armor and Fire Armor characters. Since there are so many ways to plug it, I've never jumped on the bandwagon demanding it. But I sure won't complain if we get it. I mean, why not? What possible difference will it make other than making people happy?
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While this would be nice, at least the DA and FA -KB hole can be easily plugged with IOs. Regen has no such ability to cover the -regen and -recharge debuffs hole with IOs...
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Well, yes and no. You can add a whole lot of recharge or regeneration with IOs. You could easily call that plugging the hole. You could call Hasten plugging the recharge debuff hole. There are certainly options for dealing with it, and we all deal with it. So I'd say they're different sorts of issues, but not vastly different ones.
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With strictly SOs, Regen wipes the floor with most of its sibling armor sets.
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It does??? It's been a long time since I've leveled a Regen, but this strikes me as unlikely. It's a good armor set solo leveling with SOs. It might be the best, though I'm guessing the nod might go to Willpower, and it wouldn't surprise me if others were better as well. But even if it is the best, wipes the floor? I'd be shocked if it outperformed all the other scrappers I've leveled up by that kind of level. Maybe I need to level another one up, though, just to see. Like I said, it's been a while.
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softcapping SR with SOs seems to be unrealistic
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Agreed. I'm trying to figure out a no temps no inspirations SO only AV soloing build for Dark Melee/Super Reflexes. I'm not quite softcapped (44.1% melee, 43.1% ranged and AoE). I'm hoping it will be good enough, because yes, softcapping with SOs appears to involve too many other sacrifices to be viable.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I'm not sure what the big debate is here, or why people are so against this. As has been stated many times, -rech kills a set that depends on click powers.
The biggest problem is that there are so many factors going into this hole that regen has. Since a */regen doesn't have any built in defense in the first place, you're going to be hit often by all the things that cause -rech (or -def or -regen, etc). Once you're hit by -rech and all of your heals are little dots, you are screwed unless you get really lucky. You are left with no heals, and paltry defense/resilience comparatively. The odds stack against you exponentially.
Something like a */SR is rarely going to get hit by the things that can possibly cause their weaknesses to show, and when they do, they have resistance against it anyway.
Hit a */Inv scrapper with -def, and they still have their +res to help them stay alive. Hit a */WP with -regen, and they still have +def and +res to stay alive.
Hit a */regen scrapper with -rech, and they are left with almost nothing but +regen that is paltry compared to the amount of damage they have incoming. And again, keep in mind that a */regen scrapper is going to be usually 15%+ away from softcap defense, meaning they are going to be hit by the things that expose their weakness a lot easier, a lot sooner, and a lot more often.
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AV soling is just a line, survivability level X. It turns out that ALL the secondaries can achieve survivability level X.
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If the archetype isn't guaranteed to achieve survivability level x, then this discrepancy is just as likely to bring nerfs to other sets as it is to bring buffs to regen. If other sets are to be properly used to show how regen needs improvement, it needs to be shown that the other sets can survive something that regen can't but should. With the amount of power differences in other archetypes (i.e. ice/ff vs. fire/kin controllers), simply being less capable in certain situations isn't enough to get buffs thrown around.
Pardon the passive tense.
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AV soling is just a line, survivability level X. It turns out that ALL the secondaries can achieve survivability level X.
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If the archetype isn't guaranteed to achieve survivability level x, then this discrepancy is just as likely to bring nerfs to other sets as it is to bring buffs to regen. If other sets are to be properly used to show how regen needs improvement, it needs to be shown that the other sets can survive something that regen can't but should. With the amount of power differences in other archetypes (i.e. ice/ff vs. fire/kin controllers), simply being less capable in certain situations isn't enough to get buffs thrown around.
Pardon the passive tense.
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I'm sure they were referring to scrapper secondaries. He just brought up other AT's because other people are soloing AV's with Defenders, blaster, corruptors, and I believe controllers to. Hell, some of them are soloing GM's with the other AT's.
If I'm wrong, please correct me, Werner.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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There are plenty of enemies in normal game that have -regeneration and -recharge, both of which are regenerations huge weaknesses.
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Yes, I will admit that, but there are a number of /regen players who are able to overcome such weaknesses. No big deal.
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This thread isn't about well if you need help then hop on a defender, it is about why Regeneration needs some debuff resistance.
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Yes it is. And many people have answered, "Regen does NOT need some debuff resistance." Sure, it would be NICE, it is WANTED, but it is NOT NEEDED.
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I continue to point out that ALL other secondaries have debuff resistance, and to your comment about getting knock back protection it is easy to acquire that with acrobatics, and I do believe that Castle mentioned his concern with having to take a power to be viable, back on topic, please show me a power that offers recharge debuff resistance or regeneration debuff resistance and then your argument will be valid.
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Maybe is not so much that you don't like the answers we are giving you, but rather the actual questions you should be asking.
"Oh, I get hit with -recharge or -regen. Please gimme debuff resistance please 'cuz I feel so noobisized without them!"
That is what it sounds like. But since you are expecting answers to be " Yes, we will give you that debuff resistance!" you almost immediately forsake other alternatives that make /Regen very viable and strong enough on its own.
So if I get hit with -regen, what does it means. It just means that I won't be gaining any passive "healing," that the HP stays the same. But what happens if I get damaged? Then I pop recon, Dull Pain, or even an inspiration. That solves the green issue until the debuff fades.
What about -recharge? Well, if I got Hasten, then my +recharge is still pretty decent after the debuff. Not optimal, but I'm sure I can get around it.
What you are doing is expecting only one answer to your own question, when there are other viable answers that work just fine. Sure, we would all like to have more buffs on our sets, but that doesn't mean we still need them. Hell, I would like to see Martial Arts get a minor buff like a -res secondary effect (since most of the other primary sets do have a sort of secondary effect), but I don't need them to still whup-[censored] on my MA/Regen. And if I still need help, then I could just ask someone here for any hints on overcoming these hurdles (BTW, my personal thanks to Werner, I would have sent a PM but your box is full).
If anything else, then make a post in the Scrapper Issues List by Stupid_Fanboy. There was one suggestion there already concerning the -recharge issue. You can add one for the -regen as well.
Werner, are you sure you're a scrapper? Cause you just AOE'd the whole friggin' thread in one post. Sound a *lot* like a blaster to me.
Thats what Werner does, he walks into a thread and hits spineburst.
Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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Yes it is. And many people have answered, "Regen does NOT need some debuff resistance." Sure, it would be NICE, it is WANTED, but it is NOT NEEDED.
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Defense debuffs were the Achilles heel of the SR set. They were given resistance to said debuffs out of balance concerns.
Recharge debuffs are the Achilles heel of the regen set. Why should they not be given similar treatment? One could use the same arguments against giving the SR set defense debuff resistance that you use. "Learn how to deal with it", or "pop a purple". But they gave them that change because it made it a better, more balanced set overall.
Again, why can regen not be given similar treament?
Also yes defense goes well with regeneration but when fighting any enemy with -defense debuff bye bye defense. Not to mention there are also groups that have all three defense, recharge, and regeneration debuffs.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread