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I think the problem here is the definition of "role playing". You can role play as a female without the whole sexual/flirting/cybering thing. In War_Admiral's definition, you can't. There is no reason why a female character can't act as a female no matter the gender of the player controlling them. It's like a male writer penning a female character. The opposite is equally true.
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I explained the reasons for his reactions..based on his / our experiences with it.
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Yes, but it seems, based on a number of his posts that he now connects a male RPing a female to be only this.
Examples:
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We (The Stoned Templars) had 2 members who told us they were female and even went out of their way to maintain that "sex" in pretty much everything they did and said. Of course...they were "lesbian". *rolls eyes*
It wasnt until we added Vent and invited them that we came to the conclusion that they were both dudes. They both declined to use Vent every time we asked them to join it.
From that point on...I just assume punch RPers in the face. They're useless if you ask me. Dudes RPing as chicks......get a life. Seriously.
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My guess is there are A LOT of guys running around pretending to be female. Those are the people I wonder about.
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You're on target now....guys playing girls DOES weird me out as it should a lot of people. Whats the point? I just dont get it.
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From where I'm from, guys dont pretend to play girls. Obviously from where you're from, they do. I'm sorry you have to live around those types of "boys"...I really am.
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I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. The "guys" I hang around dont pretend to be girls. And I still feel sorry for the "boys" who do.
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He seems to be utterly against a male player with a female character playing in character, the essence of RPing, as female. Now he also said that as members of the SG, and assume he means as players not characters, that these two passed themselves off as female players, in the meta game. That isn't RPing, that is lying about who you are to others.
Now they may have legitimate reasons to lie to their game friends from not wanting to get grief from some for playing "girls" to once they dug a hole for themselves with their flirting/cybering banter that they were now too embarrassed to reveal the truth. Or they simply wanted to play with people's heads and see how much they could get away with, laughing between themselves over all the sex starved gamers they could manipulate. But lumping all gender bending RPers with those two, no matter their motivation, is painting with too broad of a brush.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
[ QUOTE ]
What do people do in RP? I see so many people talking about them but i still don't really know what they do. Do they like really get into there toons and always talk like a hero or something like that?
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what's the confusion? you watch movies/television don't you? those people are RPing, just on a much larger scale.
@War Admiral
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Things were said that just dont come out of females mouths, even in a RPing enviroment.
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my personal experience, my female friends and co-workers tend to say things that surprise me more than anything any of my guy friends have ever said.
@Darktyger
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Funny thing is, the female character in my SG that wears the skimpiest outfits is actually played by a female.....
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heh...my VG leader is the same way w/ her outfits.
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I am fairly disappointed in all the RPers in this thread who failed to clarify War Admiral's issues. The problem was not that he hit "bad RPers" and there are "good RPers". The problem was clearly that the people in his complaint were not RPing, they were lying. There's a difference. And RPers do themselves a disservice when they fail to make the distinction.
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QFE. This wasn't Role-Playing; this was a couple of lying drama llamas manipulating other players to get what they wanted.
I have a number of friends in this game I've talked to through Team Speak or on the phone. I've even met a few in person, so I *know* who's on the other end of the screen. Most of them have at least one opposite-sex character that they roleplay, often very convincingly. They would never, however, try to pass themselves off as being the opposite gender IRL.
Good RPers will always make the distinction between IC (in-character) and OOC (out-of-character) quite clear. Taking deliberate advantage of confusion in that area is the hallmark of a jerk, not an RPer.
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when you lie to people about it, specially people you are in a sg with and team up with nightly.. there is an issue..
and why would a guy want to pretend to be a girl and then turn around and cyber another girl..Is it "cool" to pretend to be a lesbian now? Thats insulting.
is it because maybe it wouldnt be percieved as bad if it was a guy openly cybering a chick? Again, thats just wrong.
lol @ you people just-not-getting-it.
Welcome to earth, enjoy your stay.
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Too too funny
Ya know? My mother curses far worse and more often than I do, and I'm a 47 year old male. Don't try and judge gender by the way someone types. And it doesn't matter at all where you live. My mom was born in Arkansas and is about as redkneck as it gets. She still curses like a sailor
If your little SG got fooled by two people who used sexual drama to get what they wanted, it's the SG that has the problem. You were the ones who put up with the shenanigans and didn't kick them from the SG as soon as trouble started. Quit blaming RPers for the fact that someone who MIGHT have been of the same gender made your pants a little tighter.
It's not like someone made you squeal like a pig *strum-strumstrum-strum-strum*
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
You know what's funny FatherXMas? these two posts from War_Admiral
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You're on target now....guys playing girls DOES weird me out as it should a lot of people. Whats the point? I just dont get it.
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Btw...I have a female toon. Thats not anything that bothers me. I dont care when guys have female toons, thats not the issue at all. Its being told you're female when infact you're male. Thats the issue I have.
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edit: at first glance, it seems a bit contradictory, then again, it's 3am >.>
Actually, I'm OK with that (seeming) contradiction. In the first quote, he doesn't say "guys playing girl toons", just "guys playing girls". I believe that he's stating that his issue is with RL guys pretending to be RL girls, not RL guys playing girl toons.
@Roderick
I guess I can live with that 
I also guess it should be said again that people have already agreed with you War_Admiral, as far as what those two did, it was wrong. It's just that your general view of all RPers because of those two morons is simply also wrong, blanket assumptions never go well.
QR
It took you people 14 pages to answer what is RP?!?!
Oh wait,ya'll role played didn't you!
No, it turned into a flame war on the first page, and has been an argument ever since.
I can make blanket assumptions about large groups of people too! Wanna see?
2 men rob a convenience store. They drive away in a car.
Therefore, I conclude that all people who drive cars are criminals. If they say they are not, they are obviously lying because my conclusion cannot possibly be incorrect.
War_Admiral: Do you actually hold the rank of Admiral in the US Navy? Or any other for that matter?
If you admit that you are not in fact an admiral, then you are doing the exact same thing that actual roleplayers do: You are pretending to be something you are not for entertainment purposes.
If you say that you are in fact an admiral, and are later proven to be lying, then you are doing what the 2 people you mentioned were doing: Lying about who and what you really are when asked directly.
There is a big difference between roleplaying your character in-game and making people believe you are something you are not. Most players, when directly asked, will tell you whether they actually are the gender they are playing as. If you do not ask, they are under no obligation whatsoever to inform you.
I have several female characters that I occasionally roleplay myself. I don't flirt with male characters, nor do I state that I am female in real life. If I am asked about my gender I am up front about it.
At no point is it ever a requirement to tell a complete stranger in an online video game who and what you really are. I make guesses about other players' gender all the time, with probably a 60% accuracy rate. I have NEVER ceased playing with someone because I found out their real life gender doesn't match their character's. If I did that I would never have met my wife.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Fourteen pages and all over nothing.
Like others, I assumed that War_Admiral was saying that these two people were playing the part of girls with their characters. However, it's since been made clear that these two pretended to be girls outside of their characters.
That whole bit about why they couldn't be on Vent is your clue. In-character roleplaying has no reason to be discussing the use of Vent. Now I wonder if these two or anyone in the SG every RP'd in-character. I mean, there would be obvious cues such as referring to canon or Paragon City as if it were real. I'm starting to get the impression that this never happened.
Given that, I can see why War_Admiral and his SG had a problem with these two. Though, their conflation of what these two did and what RP actually is, is regrettable since it spawned a multi-page argument over nothing.
I'm a 40-year old man, happily married with children. When I play as a teenage female Mongolian horse archer displaced through time by an evil sorcerer, I'm role playing. If I were to act as a 21-year old male college student living at home and playing CoH, then I'm not role playing.
As had been said by several others already, what War_Admiral and his SG mate are complaining about is not RP'ng, within the context of this game and the question in the OP. It's a shame that this argument has confused the issue, though it's pretty clear to me now.
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I think the problem here is the definition of "role playing". You can role play as a female without the whole sexual/flirting/cybering thing. In War_Admiral's definition, you can't. There is no reason why a female character can't act as a female no matter the gender of the player controlling them. It's like a male writer penning a female character. The opposite is equally true.
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I explained the reasons for his reactions..based on his / our experiences with it.
Am i wrong to find it off-putting that someone I team with regularly not only lies about their own gender but goes out of their way to protray an over-sexed lesbian?
Yes, i agree.. clearly we are discussing 2 different types of role playing here.. what im not getting tho is how you can possibly argue that my opinion is wrong.
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Because it's flawed by being based on far too small of a sample group. It's like being mugged by a black man and therefore deciding that all black people are violent criminals because of it.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
"Oh...but I must, I must."
IronYeti finally hit it on the head. I had to come back and say this. Cherry, what you described isn't roleplaying at all, in the slightest. It's sexual harassment. And you're right, you don't have to put up with it. You should've kicked those people the first time they used their "female influence" to get special treatment. Doesn't matter their gender--that's just wrong.
MunkiLord is alsro right. War Admiral: Still spouting the classic bigot/sexist lines. Classy.
Also, I find it hard to believe that WA has already played "the entire game" in less than a few months. I been here five+ years and I still haven't done that.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Random thoughts on posts here since my last post:
First, I won't pretend that the South in general doesn't have way more than its share of people like War_Admiral. The Southern redneck is a stereotype for good reason, and especially once you get out of the large cities, there's no telling what kind of attitudes you'll find. However, please don't lump us all in together. I was raised in Alabama, I live in Atlanta today, and I'm a white heterosexual male who lives a relatively conservative lifestyle. However, my beliefs are considerably liberal by American standards. I have several good friends who are gay, I support equal rights for ALL people (and no, not "separate but equal," but really equal), and many of my Southern friends are just like me. Please don't let War_Admiral convince you to make the same mistake that he's making, assuming that just because someone is from the South that they must be homophobic. (Or racist, or stupid, or any other adjective that has plagued us for a couple of centuries.)
Second, I wish people would stop mixing up "role-playing" with eroticism. They are NOT the same. I role-play a lot. I never ERP, period. I don't get how that confusion arises. Not every movie is a porno, right? So why would you think that RP always involves raunchy sex talk? That's stupid. So please stop acting like all RPers are sex-crazed weirdos. In fact, according to the Rules of Conduct, "You may not use sexually explicit...language." The EULA also specifically says that you're not allowed to use inappropriate or vulgar language. Technically, ERP isn't even allowed in the game. Personally, I don't care what people talk about amongst themselves if they are consenting adults, but if it bothers you that much, just tell them to stop, and if they don't, report them and be done with it.
Third, about the whole "lying" thing, again, it's really none of your damn business what gender the players playing the characters are. Like I said, this isn't a dating service, which, given what I said about ERP above, would be the only valid reason you should have to know. If they choose to share that information with you, then fine. If they lie about it, whatever. In my opinion, they are under no obligation whatsoever NOT to lie about it, because like I said, it's none of your business. If you feel like you're entitled to know the honest answer for some reason, you are wrong. If you're curious, I can understand that, because I've been curious too about some people. But why someone would be mad because someone lied about it is beyond me, unless that person were engaging in ERP, which I suppose would make it a little awkward. (Which is also why I highly discourage ERP and actively avoid it myself.)
Even if it were an issue with someone, this sounds like an internal drama issue within War_Admiral's supergroup to me that has pretty much zero to do with role-playing. His anger is misdirected. It's pretty stupid to judge role-players and role-playing by what he's saying here.
By the way, this is exactly why I have never volunteered to set up Teamspeak/Ventrilo servers for my supergroups. If someone wants to roleplay being female, 6'-4" tall, Serbian, a mute fish, or whatever they want (a 6'-4" tall Serbian mute female fish?) and they don't want the illusion broken, then more power to them.
At various times, I've roleplayed several females, a couple of robots, a gay guy (but not "flaming" and without ERP; my gay guy friends don't dress in pink or describe their sexual exploits to me, and neither does my gay character), a human-looking extraterrestrial, an obnoxious teenager, a black woman, a Mexican-American mercenary-type, a slick PR guy, and probably a bunch of stuff I can't even remember. If you can't accept my characters at face value, then I have no desire to play with you. If you want to know about me as a player, then just ask. If it's something I don't mind telling you, I'll tell you. But if it's something I don't want you to know or don't feel comfortable sharing, I won't, or I might (gasp!) just lie about it if I don't want to deal with a bunch of follow-up questions.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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The Southern redneck is a stereotype for good reason, and especially once you get out of the large cities, there's no telling what kind of attitudes you'll find.
[/ QUOTE ] This is true(I live in the middle of Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex). But did yall know that the New England states have some of the most lax laws when it comes to marrying cousins, while the deep south is the most restrictive(generalizing). Just throwing that out there.
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If you do not ask, they are under no obligation whatsoever to inform you.
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Quoting myself here. Kinda feels weird.
Just wanted to add something I forgot.
If you DO ask, they are STILL under no obligation to tell you.
I know the real names (and addresses) of some of the people I play with regularly. Several of them know mine. I didn't ask them outright who they are or where they live, in most cases they volunteered the information. In a few others it was because I considered them enough of a friend to send them an invitation to my real life wedding, and the name and address was necessary.
There are other people I team with that I only know by their global name. They have never volunteered their real name and I never asked, because A) It's not at all important to my interaction with that person, and B) It's none of my business unless they choose to make it my business.
Their gender is equally unimportant. If someone I'm playing with makes a reference to a "hot guy" somewhere or another I assume that they are either female or gay. The possibility also exists that they are just staying in-character and are actually a straight man. In any of the above cases it does not matter, as long as they are not harassing me or using false information to acquire something.
I know a few female players that will not admit they are female in real life on a team full of strangers to avoid advances from adolescent boys who think that they want to cyber with them just because they are female.
Then there are the guys who ask ANY female character: r u hot irl? It never occurs to them that it might be a guy sitting on the other end of that question. I have fielded a couple questions like that. I answer: Yes, I am. Are you gay? Because I'm a guy. You have never seen a character disappear from your screen so fast.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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We (The Stoned Templars) had 2 members who told us they were female and even went out of their way to maintain that "sex" in pretty much everything they did and said. Of course...they were "lesbian". *rolls eyes*
It wasnt until we added Vent and invited them that we came to the conclusion that they were both dudes. They both declined to use Vent every time we asked them to join it.
From that point on...I just assume punch RPers in the face. They're useless if you ask me. Dudes RPing as chicks......get a life. Seriously.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you should get a life. Seriously. You come into an MMORPG and complain about the RPG part? Get real! If all you're doing is just playing to get exp or inf, then go play a single-player game.
RPing is not necessarily pretending to be that character. That's a mistake some people make. They seem to think that if you're RPing a character, you're always pretending to be something you're not, and they don't understand that. I have two characters that I mildly RP when the mood strikes and when the company is appropriate (no holier-than-thou anti-RPers). When I RP my split personality female dark defender, it's not because I want to pretend to be her. It's because I think she is an interesting character and I'm trying to bring her to life. When I RP my elderly tanker, I'm not secretly wishing to be an 80-year-old female stone tank, it's that I think she's a unique interesting character and I want to bring her to life too. When an author writes a novel and has all those interesting characters in it, he's not pretending or wishing he was those characters, he's breathing life into them, creating new personalities. Roleplaying is very often that... an act of creation. A smart person would realize that, recognize it when it's presented to them, and enjoy the show.
I used to play Shadowbane. Loved that game! One of our guildmembers was a woman that we didn't realize was really a guy RPing. He had it down pat, and was a high officer in our guild, often being in charge of our city. We played alongside her for a couple years. When the excuses why she couldn't use Ventrilo didn't work anymore, she finally came clean. Some of our guildmembers really didn't take to it well. I thought it was great. His character was much much more interesting than he ever could have been had he just been himself, and he added a whole new dynamic to the game. We all thought she was a conservative, polite woman and it totally changed our demeanor when she was around, adding a lot of variety into our game. And even though I knew on an intellectual level that people aren't necessarily what they appear to be, he did it so well I had no clue at all.
As to the OP.... there's different levels of RPing. You may go fully into your role and all discussion and actions are determined by the game environment, always being the hero/villain, for example. Or you may just have an interesting character bio and play it up a bit. I saw one hero who was a "demon" in one of the lesser circles of "Heck". He would come out with things like "Gaze upon me and feel mildly apprehensive!" I laughed for hours. That's the great part of playing an MMO. If someone on your team is RPing, look at it as a free sideshow you get to enjoy along with everything else (assuming they do it well or entertaining).
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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Then there are the guys who ask ANY female character: r u hot irl? It never occurs to them that it might be a guy sitting on the other end of that question. I have fielded a couple questions like that. I answer: Yes, I am. Are you gay? Because I'm a guy. You have never seen a character disappear from your screen so fast.
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I had someone on my team who didn't even bother asking me. He just jumped right into "wanna cyber". Hmmmmm. I just assumed it was a "he", anyway..... My dark defender is a wonderfully sexy, if intimidating, female. I have no desire to be female. I just wrote such a good bio for her that it seemed a shame to have her act just like anyone else, so I gave her her own personality. It works too well though. I don't like to burst people's bubbles, so I don't tell them I'm a middle-aged guy. Maybe I should tell them. "Sure I'd like to cyber. I'm gay so lemme get out my male character."
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
Gotta love homophobia couched in a self-righteous crusade for honesty in a video game. LOL
On the subject of lying vs. roleplaying, I understand the distinction, but I don't understand the indignation over people lying.
Someone posted a Crying Game example of finding out the girl they were dating was actually a guy, and in that situation, I totally agree that lying is egregiously wrong; but this is a videogame. Unless someone is somehow bilking you out of real world dollars by pretending to be something they're not, I don't see why it matters*.
If you are one of those people who sees a sexy female toon and gives "her" a valuable in-game gift just because you assume the player is a girl, then I have zero sympathy if your sexist [censored] gets played for a fool by the player of said toon falsely asserting that they are in fact female.
Likewise, if anyone on this game (or anywhere else on the 'Net) cybers with another anonymous person, then I again have no sympathy for the "disgust" they experience when they find out they've been lied to.
Here's a tip - always assume you're being lied to and don't do anything you'd find disgusting or embarrassing if in fact you were being lied to.
*Having said all of that, I do understand that if you form an actual on-going friendship with someone in-game and later find out that they have been pointedly been lying to you all along, whether it's about their gender, their age, their job, or what have you, it can hurt, and I too would probably end such a friendship. However, casual in-game aquaintences, I could care less.
Also, while I have many females toons and will casually roleplay them from time-to-time, or at least not come right out and announce at the formation of every team, "I am a male IRL," I will set people straight (heh) if I feel like they're treating me a certain way, either through flirtation or random gifting because they assume there is a female behind the controls.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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Therefore, I conclude that all people who drive cars are criminals.
[/ QUOTE ]
Make that all males under 24/25, and you're a car insurance policy writer!
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Southern redneck is a stereotype for good reason, and especially once you get out of the large cities, there's no telling what kind of attitudes you'll find.
[/ QUOTE ] This is true(I live in the middle of Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex). But did yall know that the New England states have some of the most lax laws when it comes to marrying cousins, while the deep south is the most restrictive(generalizing). Just throwing that out there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Laws come about where there are issues with what the law deals with, generally.
Which makes me wonder about that place with the "No carnal relations with a woman and her daughter at the same time" one...
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
Make that all males under 24/25, and you're a car insurance policy writer!
[/ QUOTE ]
That's more of a statistical blip that's taken into account when factoring in risk to determine rates. So is single/married/married with kids.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
QR
Over half my toons are female..
99% of the new ones I make are female.
Why? because I'd rather look at an attractive female than some guy for 50 levels.
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QR
Over half my toons are female..
99% of the new ones I make are female.
Why? because I'd rather look at an attractive female than some guy for 50 levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see this a lot, and it never makes sense to me. Sure, a costume idea can look better on a female than on a male especially with the kinds of unique pieces they have, but if you're spending so much time looking at your character, how can you play the game? I really don't get it, but to each their own I suppose.
Around half of my characters are female and the other male. I have no "neutral" genders (aka: machines) nor aliens that aren't clearly a specific gender. I just go with the gender that best fits the background or costume I'm after. So far, it's split my genders pretty much right down the middle.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
QR
Over half my toons are female..
99% of the new ones I make are female.
Why? because I'd rather look at an attractive female than some guy for 50 levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see this a lot, and it never makes sense to me. Sure, a costume idea can look better on a female than on a male especially with the kinds of unique pieces they have, but if you're spending so much time looking at your character, how can you play the game? I really don't get it, but to each their own I suppose.
Around half of my characters are female and the other male. I have no "neutral" genders (aka: machines) nor aliens that aren't clearly a specific gender. I just go with the gender that best fits the background or costume I'm after. So far, it's split my genders pretty much right down the middle.
[/ QUOTE ]
I play with my camera zoomed waaay out to see everything possible. I see my toon quite a bit.
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RP has nothing to do with saying you are someone else or even pretending to be someone else.
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lol
I agree with the spirit of your message, however the words....
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, the wording was poor, you are correct. I meant saying in seriousness or pretending to the point of believing. Obviously it is about saying and pretending. But it's not about lying, or the ever-hilarious "I'm a real vampire". (And yes, I've had that line delivered to me. Straight-faced and serious. In person.)
I team with the Repeat Offenders.