I -know- I'm no blaster, but...Why am I so weak?
What's wrong with wanting to be able to solo a defender?
The tweak to Vigilence does not need to be damage. But Vigilence is a poor inherent power.
It does nothing solo.
It does nothing if you are doing a good job on a team.
It makes it very hard to plan endurance management since sometimes you have more endurance than you'd possibly need then other times you don't have nearly enough.
Defenders need a tweak, but I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't need to be a damage tweak.
Have Vigilence help when your solo.
Have Vigilence do something if your team is healthy.
Have it help since after Going Rogue everyone will probably just make Corrupters.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vigilence needs to be retweaked and I think correctly this thread has stated that soloing is very hard for many (not all) defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must admit this particular complaint always leaves me bemused. The AT is advertised from the beginning as a team support AT yet I keep seeing people complain that not all variants can solo well. 
I keep getting the impression that what people are thinking but are not quite willing to say is that they want blaster damage and defender abilities. Thats not likely to happen any time soon. In the mean time you can always go and play a corrupter. Soon you'll even be able to bring them hero side.
[/ QUOTE ]
Any character can solo. This is coming from a guy that played an FF/Elec Defender almost exclusively for four years, solo about half the time.
The question really is, how much PATIENCE do you have. If you don't have the patience to solo a Defender as-is, why aren't you playing something else that you'll enjoy solo-ing better?
[ QUOTE ]
Have it help since after Going Rogue everyone will probably just make Corrupters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Because after containment, Controllers took all our jobs away. Now Corruptors are going to do the same with their 25% more damage and 25% weaker buffs and FIRE.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
My defenders are doing decent damage once their buffs and debuffs are set ( rads or storm ). The only thing that prevent them to be very successful soloers is the lack of status protection. Many solo fights can become hazardous especially when my Breakfrees are running low. I find it easyer to solo with a controller even pre-pets because they can pre-empt enemies and lock them down before they throw mezzes at you.
Would i be happy if defenders were gettings some mezz protections? Of course. Would it be balanced? That i don't know.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
[ QUOTE ]
What's wrong with wanting to be able to solo a defender?
The tweak to Vigilence does not need to be damage. But Vigilence is a poor inherent power.
It does nothing solo.
It does nothing if you are doing a good job on a team.
It makes it very hard to plan endurance management since sometimes you have more endurance than you'd possibly need then other times you don't have nearly enough.
Defenders need a tweak, but I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't need to be a damage tweak.
Have Vigilence help when your solo.
Have Vigilence do something if your team is healthy.
Have it help since after Going Rogue everyone will probably just make Corrupters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let me take a stab at this.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to solo as a defender. That being said, you must know what you're doing with your power sets in order to be able to effectively solo as them. Also, you need to do things tactically. If you're expecting to do as my usually solo Fire/Shield scrapper, jump into the group, kill the mob before they can kill him tactic as a defender, you're most likely doing it wrong. Uses of corners, pulling, and the effects of your powers makes all the difference to if you are solo-able. Will it be slow? Probably.
I honestly don't mind Vigilence. Sure, it doesn't help solo play or help you on a good team. And? I'm not a particular fan of any inherit power hero side except critical strike from scrappers. If we change Vigilence to do something solo, then the Khed's inherit needs to change so it does something solo as well. If you're team is doing good, then the inherit shouldn't matter since all the characters are working well together and are self sufficient with what they have and what you offer to them. Being self sufficient is a thing that I believe everyone should be, that way when you get on a team you aren't covering for someone else's hole they didn't cover via their own build.
As such, if you aren't having endurance problems (though blue bars do go down most of the time), then you're being self sufficient and then the extra discount just helps you keep your blue bar full. If you're having endurance issues post Stamina, then you need endurance redux. If you're having issues with endurance any time in your career, think of not clicking every power plausible and save some endurance for the powers that count (specially if they are decent recharge powers). I've sat there several times with a very low blue bar on my Corruptors and refused to do anything until key powers were ready. Some to keep my toggle Leadership powers up, other times so I'd have enough endurance for Freezing Rain or Transfusion.
As far as tweaking defenders, I'm happy with where they are at. I do mostly team with them, but that's because I don't like the slow pace of soloing with them. Sure, I can solo with my defenders, but it's slow and I have to be tactical and smart about what I do. Any time I don't, you're right, I meet the sidewalk every time. Unlike scrappers, stalkers, blasters, or even corruptors, Defenders don't have the damage to make up for a player error. Unlike Controllers or Dominators, Defenders don't have as much control (hard or soft) to make up for player error (though this is your best place to pull stuff out of). Unlike Tankers, Brutes, and Masterminds, they don't have as much HP and shields to make up for player mistakes. It takes knowing not only your powers, but how to use them. This doesn't mean that their inherit should change. That's like telling a petless mastermind's inherit should change or a Khed's inherit should effect them solo.
As far as Going Rogue is concerned, the only reason I'd bring over a corruptor is for the following two reasons: Traps and Assault Rifle. Other than that, I'm all for the dark defenders. Expect at least me to be doing Dominators hero side and Defender villain side. Those are my two classes that just make me smile the most, always have and always will.
Edited for format only, nothing changed. Didn't notice my post was all in a quote. Also, I'm referring to "dark defenders" as Villain Defenders, not the Dark Miasma or Dark Blast power sets.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
Expect at least me to be doing Dominators hero side and Defender villain side. Those are my two classes that just make me smile the most, always have and always will.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm right there with you. Dominators and Defenders are my two favorites, as well. 
Since I may not have been clear earlier, I wanted to go on record as saying that I think Defenders are fine as they are. I think all Defenders, even the non /Sonic Defenders, bring something to a team that Controllers don't, and vice versa. As such, I think they each have their own separate role, and neither one negates the other. I also think neither are necessary for a successful team.
I love my Defenders, and I would love them more if they got stronger, however that might be, so I will agree with suggestions to buff them. I don't really play Controllers, Tankers, or Blasters, however, so I don't have a vested interest in making sure buffed Defenders don't supplant those other classes. For all I care, they could buff Defenders until every single other AT was obsolete, and I'd still be happy.
Ultimately though, I am happy with Defenders as they are, too, so if nothing ever changed for them, I wouldn't mind. My offensive Defenders get the job done, and my defensive Defenders don't get played much. 
It all works out in the end.
Bye, everybody!
*Champion*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have it help since after Going Rogue everyone will probably just make Corrupters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Because after containment, Controllers took all our jobs away. Now Corruptors are going to do the same with their 25% more damage and 25% weaker buffs and FIRE.
[/ QUOTE ]
In all fairness trollers don't play anything like defenders, but corrs do. Trollers take even longer than defs to get powerful too, which is a big detractor for many casual players. Corrs on the other hand... well the poster child in the game for early development is probably fire/dark
I've said before that once the dust settles from GR the game will have 6 prevailing AT's that occupy 80% of the population: (in no particular order)
Blasters, Brutes, Corrs, Trollers, Scraps, MM's.
That leaves:
Defs, Tanks, Doms, and Stalkers
Battling for the remaining 20%
*epics excluded
If I were feeling doomy, I'd say Defs have a very real chance of dropping down to 2nd least popular AT ahead of only Stalkers. Optimistically, I don't see them higher than 3rd least popular, so meh.
I just want to say that the forums magically became unblocked at work so now I can post again.
I see so many dead horses to beat in my future. In honor of this glorious occasion I will return to my original handle of Hobo_Healer.
Bath in my rocked aura and rejoice!
As far as the OP goes, I've played four Defenders to- or very close to level 50. I wouldn't say any of them could keep up in speed of soloing with any of my more damage oriented tunes, but they usually do so at an acceptable pace for me with a good amount of survivability.
In terms of how fast I was able to solo mishes on Unyielding or Invincible with them, I would rate them in this order (Yes, I went with de facto standard builds because I wanted to see how they played with their logical counterpart:
Rad/Rad
Dark/Dark
TA/Arch
Sonic/Sonic
FF/Psy
So... purely from a speed perspective, I found that my Rad/Rad soloed the fastest. Mind you, thats in relation to my other Defenders. By "solo", I mean playing either Police Band or Contact door missions solo. I do not mean running AE farms.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have it help since after Going Rogue everyone will probably just make Corrupters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Because after containment, Controllers took all our jobs away. Now Corruptors are going to do the same with their 25% more damage and 25% weaker buffs and FIRE.
[/ QUOTE ]In defence of this position, I probably will never make a defender if I can make a corruptor blueside (pending other changes, of course). The earlier access to attacks compensates for the later access to money powers, and about the only change I can see is that any /sonic I make will have to take Sonic Siphon. The rest of the gap in the buffs/debuffs doesn't make that big a difference to me.
(I don't think I'm alone in this, but I also don't think that I'm the rule.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Have it help since after Going Rogue everyone will probably just make Corrupters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. Because after containment, Controllers took all our jobs away. Now Corruptors are going to do the same with their 25% more damage and 25% weaker buffs and FIRE.
[/ QUOTE ]In defence of this position, I probably will never make a defender if I can make a corruptor blueside (pending other changes, of course). The earlier access to attacks compensates for the later access to money powers, and about the only change I can see is that any /sonic I make will have to take Sonic Siphon. The rest of the gap in the buffs/debuffs doesn't make that big a difference to me.
(I don't think I'm alone in this, but I also don't think that I'm the rule.)
[/ QUOTE ]
And what's wrong with sonic syphen at level 1? It's more useful then say, a buff which can't be used while solo and is meh at low levels.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
And what's wrong with sonic syphen at level 1? It's more useful then say, a buff which can't be used while solo and is meh at low levels.
[/ QUOTE ]I don't like the power. I don't spend much time at the lower levels (seriously, how hard is it to get to about 12?). Once I'm past level 12 or so, the power is quite, quite meh.
[ QUOTE ]
(seriously, how hard is it to get to about 12?)
[/ QUOTE ]
It can take me somewhere between an hour and three hours of dedicated play. Regardless of character if I'm teaming. Not teaming, much longer.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
I'm gonna throw my two cents in and say defender damage needs a buff. I'm currently trying to level a TA/archery and its PAINFUL. Some LT's take at least 20 arrows to defeat. I mean, seriously.
Matter of fact, I can't think of a single build I leveled that takes as long to kill mobs.
You just sit and watch as your attacks hit, over and over and over and over and over and you swear, "ok, he's down to just a sliver of health, this should be enough to kill him, " and nope, he is still alive, and you have to continue to plink away at his health.
Its like every single white con minion and LT has the hitpoints of an AV playing as a defender.
***I just logged in to see how many times I have to attack to kill a yellow LT troll and a white minion troll. It takes 16 attacks with my bow to kill the LT and 9 to kill AN EVEN CON MINION. Sure I'm lvl 11 without IO's yet, but that's ridiculous.
[ QUOTE ]
In defence of this position, I probably will never make a defender if I can make a corruptor blueside (pending other changes, of course). The earlier access to attacks compensates for the later access to money powers, and about the only change I can see is that any /sonic I make will have to take Sonic Siphon. The rest of the gap in the buffs/debuffs doesn't make that big a difference to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have stated this before and I'm pretty sure others have made the point in the past as well. Not all ATs are to everyones taste. Even within ATs not everyone likes all the powersets. This is true for all sorts of reasons and in my opinion is a good thing. If you as a player are dissatisfied with the amount of damage your defender is doing corrupters are the obvious solution to your problem. Far greater individual damage potential with somewhat less buffing strength.
I myself have never been all that concerned with personal damage and have always liked the idea that I'm giving my team the strongest possible buffs in the game. Hence I like defenders over corrupters.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm gonna throw my two cents in and say defender damage needs a buff. I'm currently trying to level a TA/archery and its PAINFUL. Some LT's take at least 20 arrows to defeat. I mean, seriously.
Matter of fact, I can't think of a single build I leveled that takes as long to kill mobs.
You just sit and watch as your attacks hit, over and over and over and over and over and you swear, "ok, he's down to just a sliver of health, this should be enough to kill him, " and nope, he is still alive, and you have to continue to plink away at his health.
Its like every single white con minion and LT has the hitpoints of an AV playing as a defender.
***I just logged in to see how many times I have to attack to kill a yellow LT troll and a white minion troll. It takes 16 attacks with my bow to kill the LT and 9 to kill AN EVEN CON MINION. Sure I'm lvl 11 without IO's yet, but that's ridiculous.
[/ QUOTE ]
TA takes a while to bloom. As soon as you get acid arrow and disruption arrow, you'll start to move quicker through enemies. You're just sitting with the problem every defender has, not enough attacks to kill things and not enough buff/debuffs to make it faster with the lower tier attacks.
50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec
[ QUOTE ]
32 Rad/Rad defender here, and even with accelerated metabolism and a res debuffed foe, even my aimed snipe does less damage than my claw scrapper's unbuffed shockwave.
I mean I still do helpful team functions, but I feel fundamentally useless besides that. Like even activating my secondaries is a end waste.
[/ QUOTE ]
most defender secondaries do a side effect like ice and psy does -rech, dark -tohitt, rad -def, sonic -res and so on, and since its a defender set it will have the most debuffage of any other AT that has that also has that powerset...
if your looking for damage on a defender you need to go with sonic, psy or archery for rain of arrows you can get RoA up every 20-25 sec with the right IO build and as a def youll most likely be debuffing or whatever your primary is most of the time so you only really need a few solid attacks anyways
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know why, but I've found that Rad Blast can feel very ineffectual despite doing the same kind of damage values as other Defender sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel this way too. I know it's in my head, but it's still there. I've just never bonded with the set because of it.
[ QUOTE ]
Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
But the inherent makes up for it. Once I solo'd the minions sitting at the statue in atlas. Man, they didnt have a chance. Scrappers better watch themselves, I'm gonna run them over.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
Having seen Tornelco's defender solo AVs and Giant Monsters, I think I'd be happy with that damage on my dominators.
[/ QUOTE ]
Having seen some of the perma doms in action, I would be happy with their damage and control.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what's wrong with sonic syphen at level 1? It's more useful then say, a buff which can't be used while solo and is meh at low levels.
[/ QUOTE ]I don't like the power. I don't spend much time at the lower levels (seriously, how hard is it to get to about 12?). Once I'm past level 12 or so, the power is quite, quite meh.
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh? It's your ONLY damage boost if you are solo. Sure, Corruptors do more base damage than Defenders, but I don't see how you can get by with no damage boost at all.
Maybe you don't solo, though. The ally centered version of the power is much better. Honestly, I think Sonic Siphon could at the very least use to be a cone. Siphon Power, which is the power Kins get at that level, buffs the caster and everyone around him.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Having seen Tornelco's defender solo AVs and Giant Monsters, I think I'd be happy with that damage on my dominators.
[/ QUOTE ]
Having seen some of the perma doms in action, I would be happy with their damage and control.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now all Doms are perma Doms.
[ QUOTE ]
32 Rad/Rad defender here, and even with accelerated metabolism and a res debuffed foe, even my aimed snipe does less damage than my claw scrapper's unbuffed shockwave.
I mean I still do helpful team functions, but I feel fundamentally useless besides that. Like even activating my secondaries is a end waste.
[/ QUOTE ]
Some quick advice.
Until the devs revisit Defenders:
- reroll as a corruptor. You'll provide a satisfactory amount of team protection and be able to provide better damage, both solo and grouped. When Going Rogue goes live switch to blue. Wave to the defenders in the museums as you pass 'Go'.
- reroll as a controller. Like the corruptor your secondary is more than sufficient for helping a team, and you trade your weak secondary for a primary that builds on the safety factor as well as adds damage (esp. past SOs). Add pets to flavor.
- roll a Rad/Sonic defender. Sonic is the sweet pill that makes defender life better.
53 Bots/FF/Mace Mastermind | 53 NRG/FF/Electricity Defender | 50 Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender | 50 Demons/FF/Mace Mastermind | 51 Necro/Dark/Soul Mastermind | 50 Thugs/Time/Mace Mastermind | 50 Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker | 50 Plant/Rad/Earth Controller | 50 Illusion/Trick Arrow Controller | 50 Gravity/Force Field Controller
Yes, I like Force Fields.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know why, but I've found that Rad Blast can feel very ineffectual despite doing the same kind of damage values as other Defender sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel this way too. I know it's in my head, but it's still there. I've just never bonded with the set because of it.
[/ QUOTE ]
probably because of neutrino bolt is such an oddball starting attack. Honestly the rest of the set is pretty damn boringly normal as blast sets go.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders contribute far too much to a team to act like their damage is such a crucial element of the class.
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have an entire secondary powerset specifically devoted to dealing damage. To say that damage for Defenders isn't important is like saying Scrappers don't need to use their defenses or Controllers don't need to use their buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where did he say it wasn't important for the class? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but as near as I could tell he meant that individual damage wasn't the *point* of the class. Which is true as far as I can tell.
If you want high individual damage do something else. Defenders are not meant to simply be tougher blasters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, Defenders should not be Blasters with buffs. That's why Blasters have damage in their primary and secondary. I don't want Defenders to do as much base damage as Blasters, either; that would be entirely too much, and would make Blasters obsolete.
I don't think a small buff to Defender base damage (say, a ranged damage modifier of 0.75 instead of 0.67) would be game breaking, and it might help show the teammates of Defenders that the Defender's blasts aren't just flashy debuffs. Then again, maybe such a small buff wouldn't make a noticeable difference, but I'd still rather have it than not.
As for my original comments, I read "Defenders contribute far too much to a team to act like their damage is such a crucial element of the class" to be another way of saying "Damage for Defenders is not a crucial element of the class, because they bring so much else to a team."
Defenders do bring a lot to the team, but they also have a damage secondary. If their damage isn't important (crucial, whatever), then their secondary isn't important. Name another Hero AT whose secondary isn't important to what they do.
Along the same lines, if we are tossing out Defender damage as relevant to a team, then Controllers really are better than Defenders, because they bring more total team support. It seems like the argument is that if Defenders get a damage buff, then Blasters are useless. As I see it, it should be that if Defenders don't get a damage buff, then Defenders are made useless by Controllers. I don't personally agree with either of those statements, but those who believe the first should take a long hard look at the second.
Bye, everybody!
*Champion*