City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

I -know- I'm no blaster, but...Why am I so weak?

Arondell

By Arondell,
Posted on: 2009-06-13 09:30 in Defenders

 

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Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.

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Yep. Despite apologia, the fact remains that defenders hit like girls with muscular dystrophy. I know it's for balance. It's just one of those things that makes you sigh when you are reminded of it. Defenders are still an amazing AT, but just like scrappers aren't known for their debuffs, defenders aren't known for their damage dealing.

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I agree Defendes really do bring alot to the table. There is no shame in doing less damage then others.

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Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?

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Nukes.

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And damage in general. Most Defenders do significantly more damage than most Controllers (with Fire Control being the obvious exception).

There's also the numerical advantage in stronger buffs/debuffs, but as previously noted that's a distinction that few players will notice in practice. It is, however, significant. It also applies to pool power buffs from Leadership.

With great power comes great RTFM -- Lady Sadako
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server

 

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When I want to play easy mode, I play my tricked-out scrappers. When I want to play AWESOME MODE, I play my defenders

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Best sentence in this entire thread...

 

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Do we need to pull out Psyonico's video of his Empath solo-ing invincible Carnie mobs with ease?

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The irony here is that he used Mass Hypnosis and Domination to make it possible, both Controller powers which are usually unavailable to Defenders unless 40+ and chosen the psychic EPP.

 

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Do we need to pull out Psyonico's video of his Empath solo-ing invincible Carnie mobs with ease?

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The irony here is that he used Mass Hypnosis and Domination to make it possible, both Controller powers which are usually unavailable to Defenders unless 40+ and chosen the psychic EPP.

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Don't confuse the issue with facts like that. Generalizations are much more fun

 

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Do we need to pull out Psyonico's video of his Empath solo-ing invincible Carnie mobs with ease?

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The irony here is that he used Mass Hypnosis and Domination to make it possible, both Controller powers which are usually unavailable to Defenders unless 40+ and chosen the psychic EPP.

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Don't confuse the issue with facts like that. Generalizations are much more fun

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It's still part of the class, no? I don't see the irony, every class gets better as they get higher. Controllers can be good soloers but they don't start getting awesome at it until they can pick up more damage skills at 40+

 

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I'm just saying using the psychic EPP with controller powers to prove that defenders can solo on invinc, is really only underlining the fact controllers do it so much better.

 

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Defenders should be removed from the game. Or at least have their gimp blasts removed and replaced with a mandatory healer set like Empathy.

Much more useful to a team than pew pew tiny damage blasts.

 

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Long time no see Hobo! Where/how the hell have YOU been??

 

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Long time no see Hobo! Where/how the hell have YOU been??

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Work blocked forums, so rarely check it anymore. Pretty much just stick to the RO forums.

Still playing. Mostly on Virtue. Most recent 50 was my Shield/Mace tank. Current mains are a Grav/TA controller and a Earth/Storm controller.

So can be found, just not hear very much. Glad to see what have not yet beaten this horse to death. Resilient little bugger.

 

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this horse

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With all the hormones that were in its diet? Who are you kidding?

Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~

 

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Lots of times the difference between the controller buff numbers and the defender buff numbers is meaningless. The presence of the buff is enough. Umbral's right about the numbers, but most of the time nobody will notice the difference. People are just happy to have buffs.

I used to think this meant my defender would not get teams, because controllers brought more to the table. Turns out this is utterly untrue. My AT envy was pretty ugly. It turns out that no amount of changing other ATs fixed what I thought was wrong with my favourite AT, and when I actually thought about it the problem with my AT (defenders losing out to controllers in teams and other situations) didn't even exist. I got teams then, get teams now, and will get teams in the future. When I want to play easy mode, I play my tricked-out scrappers. When I want to play AWESOME MODE, I play my defenders

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Yea, real game vs. forums issue, you had nothing to worry about. Perfect example was when I use to play my illusion/empathy controller and almost every PuG I got on the leader would still say after I joined, "we need a healer!" Or on that same group they'd thank the trick arrow defender for the great healing. Your typical PuG player puts the AT's in a box and usually doesn't even pay attention to what anyone else is doing.

 

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Lots of times the difference between the controller buff numbers and the defender buff numbers is meaningless. The presence of the buff is enough. Umbral's right about the numbers, but most of the time nobody will notice the difference. People are just happy to have buffs.

I used to think this meant my defender would not get teams, because controllers brought more to the table. Turns out this is utterly untrue.

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I think part of that is because when I'm a team leader, and am putting together a team that needs more support, I'm likely to look for a defender before a controller because theres a better chance that they have (1) taken, (2) slotted and (3) learned to use their support powers. Not guaranteed, nothing is, but better chance.

After a horrendous 6-hour STF a friend and I organized for our Khelds, I have sworn to question controllers in place of defenders more carefully about what key powers they've taken and how they've slotted them if its going to be tough content. . .

And to the OP, I"ve never seen anyone complain about a defenders lack of damage. I've occassionally seen a complaint about a defender not USING any attacks, if the team is rolling through stuff without a problem, but really nobody expects a defender on a team to be the main damage source. I was SO wishing I could have swapped my IOed out Warshade on that STF for my defender, we would have knocked 2-3 hours off that TF with less damage and more defendery goodness.

We won't discuss what happens when you start getting 4 or more defenders on a team, heh heh. . .

 

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We won't discuss what happens when you start getting 4 or more defenders on a team, heh heh. . .

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The answer is that you make Castle cry.

 

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Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?

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The actual buffs, debuffs, and heals from the Defender primary? Controllers have support scalars of .75 whereas Defenders have a 1.0. A */ff controller with maneuvers will only be able to provide 33.345% +def. A ff/* defender with maneuvers will provide 44.46% +def. The difference between an FF troller and an FF fender is the difference between taking 33.31% of incoming damage and taking 11.08% of incoming damage. Defenders support better than Controllers.

Please try to actually learn the numbers before you make claims.

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If you add Power Boost from a Controller's epic pool, you can get that number up to 47.2%. And since Power Boost only takes 120s to recharge and you can cast three sets of bubbles for each usage of Power Boost, it's not hard to slot with enough recharge that you can have perma-power boosted bubbles for a whole team.

Defenders are able to get this defense number up to 59.2% with Power Build Up, but since PBU takes 240s to recharge, and it only lasts 12.5s as opposed to Power Boost's 15s, it's difficult to get boosted bubbles on a whole team. (Not that I've tried, my only 50 bubbler is the controller.)

(It appears to me that Umbral was assuming 56% enhancement for all defense powers. I only applied the boost from PBU or PB to the individual bubbles, not Maneuvers or Dispersion Bubble, because those powers will only be boosted while PBU or PB is active.)

So in the case of pure damage mitigation, it's possible to build a controller that can easily keep an entire team at the cap. He'll need to take an extra power compared to the defender that gets close enough, and if the defender wants to go overboard, he'll be able to provide a lot of extra defense, which might be useful in circumstances where teammates are straying far from the defender.

Whether or not you find the preceding analysis useful probably depends on if you're worried about level 50 content or if you're trying to get numbers while leveling. Clearly, defenders will provide much better defense until level 47. But a well-slotted */FF controller can be about as effective for a lot of the level 50 content. To answer the original question, defenders do a better job here, but it's possible for controllers to do it well enough (even if "well enough" requires hitting 45% defense.)

 

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-Your- defender isnt known for its damage.

Try not to speak for mine.

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Your defender isn't known for your damage.

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Maybe not to you it isnt. However I have been chosen for team specifically because of my damage.

Also, Ive tested it and I can out do an AVs regen without Lingering Rad. So, im thinking my damage, is completely respectable.

Also, as Talen said Rad/Sonic defender.

 

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Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.

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Yep. Despite apologia, the fact remains that defenders hit like girls with muscular dystrophy. I know it's for balance. It's just one of those things that makes you sigh when you are reminded of it. Defenders are still an amazing AT, but just like scrappers aren't known for their debuffs, defenders aren't known for their damage dealing.

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I agree Defendes really do bring alot to the table. There is no shame in doing less damage then others.

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Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?

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So that smiley is actually "smirk"? Huh.

What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?

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What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?

Im going to say nothing. Becuase really stacking -res is just absurd.

 

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Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Despite apologia, the fact remains that defenders hit like girls with muscular dystrophy. I know it's for balance. It's just one of those things that makes you sigh when you are reminded of it. Defenders are still an amazing AT, but just like scrappers aren't known for their debuffs, defenders aren't known for their damage dealing.

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I agree Defendes really do bring alot to the table. There is no shame in doing less damage then others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?

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So that smiley is actually "smirk"? Huh.

What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?

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What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?

Im going to say nothing. Becuase really stacking -res is just absurd.

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Doubled damage through containment? It benefits the controller alone, but is still the equivalent of automatic, non-stacking -100% DR to anything that you can immobilize (PToD doesnt' protect from immobilize, do they?)

119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.

 

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To me, Blaster/Scrapper damage versus Controller/Tanker/Defender damage comes to only one point.

Blaster/Scrapper does more damage but has less defense/control than Controller/Tanker/Defender. Thus faster battles, but higher chance of death in a short amount of time. Take into account downtime with rest on the mobs you nearly wipe on or when you do wipe running back to the mission, etc.

Controller/Tanker/Defender has higher defense/control but less damage, which means the battles take longer, but if you have a tactical eye and a working knowledge of your powers, you will be a lot safer than Blaster/Scrappers. Take into account that you deal less damage, but you don't have to worry about dying as much as you do with the other two ATs.

It really depends on your play style and what you want out of your characters. Personally, when I play my Storm/Dark or Fire/Storm, I just love to see the endless runs of -1s, -2s, -3s, -8s, etc. I also like to have them on teams, which means I can AoE and cone 5-15+ enemies with a series of small numbers. Makes me smile every time I get a bit group of enemies with a whole lot of red numbers running over their heads. Sure, they aren't large numbers, but they not only add up, but they are debuffing the enemies while it does the damage. I call that two birds, one stone.

50s: Bla- Arch/Mental Cont- Mind/FF, Earth/Cold, Ill/Therm, Earth/Rad Dominator- Plant/Psi, Elec/Earth Corr- Fire/Storm, Arch/Sonic, Rad/Kin, Beam/Sonic, Psi/Time Stalker- Elec/SR Def- Storm/Dark, Emp/Psi, Dark/Elec, FF/Arch, TA/Ice, TA/Elec, Kin/AR, Cold/DP, Traps/Psi Scrap- Fire/Shield Tanker- Dark/Mace, Ice/Kin Brute- Claws/WP, SS/Energy, BS/Elec

 

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So we all agree that because a single 1 Billion Influence Ultra Cheezy Build Rad/Sonic can do ok damage that defender damage is therefor ok?

Works for me.

I like Defenders in teams btw. They are almost as good as an endless inspiration tray.

 

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Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?

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The actual buffs, debuffs, and heals from the Defender primary? Controllers have support scalars of .75 whereas Defenders have a 1.0. A */ff controller with maneuvers will only be able to provide 33.345% +def. A ff/* defender with maneuvers will provide 44.46% +def. The difference between an FF troller and an FF fender is the difference between taking 33.31% of incoming damage and taking 11.08% of incoming damage. Defenders support better than Controllers.

Please try to actually learn the numbers before you make claims.

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Except only some of those support scalars are .75, actually MOST aren't. Heals for instance are at 88%. Recovery buffs are at 100%. Only defense and resistance buffs seem to follow the controller buff = 75% of a defender buff rule.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...Number=4996435

It's old but if you go towards the bottom of the page and look at the revised list I believe all the numbers are still the same.

 

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You should try soloing with it.

Though I put the -resist proc in my first Rad Blast attack, will that help?

 

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From what I've been told, Defender Snipe attacks are only good for pulling. Boost the -ToHit on Radiation Infection and focus on close up blasting with Cosmic Burst, Irradiate, X-Ray Beam, and Electron Haze. Enemies won't be able to touch ya.

Too many alts to list.