I -know- I'm no blaster, but...Why am I so weak?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Despite apologia, the fact remains that defenders hit like girls with muscular dystrophy. I know it's for balance. It's just one of those things that makes you sigh when you are reminded of it. Defenders are still an amazing AT, but just like scrappers aren't known for their debuffs, defenders aren't known for their damage dealing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree Defendes really do bring alot to the table. There is no shame in doing less damage then others.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers? 
[/ QUOTE ]
So that smiley is actually "smirk"? Huh.
What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?
[/ QUOTE ]
What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?
Im going to say nothing. Becuase really stacking -res is just absurd.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doubled damage through containment? It benefits the controller alone, but is still the equivalent of automatic, non-stacking -100% DR to anything that you can immobilize (PToD doesnt' protect from immobilize, do they?)
[/ QUOTE ]
Touche, however the -res is a better imo because we can still double our damage and it double the damage of the rest of the team as well.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So we all agree that because a single 1 Billion Influence Ultra Cheezy Build Rad/Sonic can do ok damage that defender damage is therefor ok?
Works for me.
I like Defenders in teams btw. They are almost as good as an endless inspiration tray.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, everyone seems to base their controller arguments on Ultra cheezy fire/kinetics builds. Seems fair to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
1 billion influence? ... God I wish, I reach that point with just my Glad Armor unique and 2 purple of the five purple sets I run.
And ... Yeah well ... if you want a defender to do damge build for it. Dont take some lower damage combo then whine.
[ QUOTE ]
And ... Yeah well ... if you want a defender to do damge build for it. Dont take some lower damage combo then whine.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem being only /Sonic is good at dealing damage for a defender. That's not like there are plenty of choices.
Still better than nothing, I agree.
There are a couple of interesting points here that touch on a variety of areas. For example:
- Defenders are less likely to be stupid? Eh, I don't think so. I've seen many a defender with one attack in their forties. I've seen more than a few defenders whine about running out of support powers to take and being 'forced' to take something in their epics that can deal damage.
- Controllers' buffs and debuffs are less than defenders. That's true. On the other hand, mezzing a spawn for the entirety of its life makes the cuteness of forcefields rather redundant, for example. When comparing a controller's buffs/debuffs to the buffs/debuffs of the defender, remember the controller will usually contribute some damage, and often in many cases, some control too, which relieves the need to lean on his buffs/debuffs. In many cases, this can be a bit of a pain for the defender, where the controller provides less, but needs to provide less.
- Defender damage isn't great. Well, I suppose it's not. My empathy/archery doesn't feel like he hits like a truck, but then if he did, something would be very wrong because there are other archetypes that do it. Would it be nice to feel like I did more? I suppose so, but then it wouldn't really be fair to the other archetypes that don't have any buffs or debuffs worth a damn.
- Tornelco's build costing a lot... well, yes, do you think soloing GMs and AVs should be cheap and easy? Go ask the scrapper boards how many of them did their av-soloing builds on the cheap. Same with the controllers.
- Sonic Blast is awesome. I totally agree. Ironically I have a hard time enjoying playing it because the animations annoy me.
- Dominators are being adjusted to have both their roles considered equally important. Maybe that's a wet test for the defender. I doubt it, but that can give people a smidgen of hope.
- So, you don't like how defenders do damage? Okay, neat. You see those other ATs out there? Try them, maybe they'll have something you like. I know I like corruptors but don't like defenders as much. That's not indicative of a problem, that's indicative of taste. There are a bunch of guys in this thread who seem to really enjoy their defenders and don't feel they lack for damage.
- It's late. Who are you people and where's my horse?
[ QUOTE ]
There are a couple of interesting points here that touch on a variety of areas. For example:<ul type="square">[*]Defenders are less likely to be stupid? Eh, I don't think so. I've seen many a defender with one attack in their forties. I've seen more than a few defenders whine about running out of support powers to take and being 'forced' to take something in their epics that can deal damage.[*]Controllers' buffs and debuffs are less than defenders. That's true. On the other hand, mezzing a spawn for the entirety of its life makes the cuteness of forcefields rather redundant, for example. When comparing a controller's buffs/debuffs to the buffs/debuffs of the defender, remember the controller will usually contribute some damage, and often in many cases, some control too, which relieves the need to lean on his buffs/debuffs. In many cases, this can be a bit of a pain for the defender, where the controller provides less, but needs to provide less.[*]Defender damage isn't great. Well, I suppose it's not. My empathy/archery doesn't feel like he hits like a truck, but then if he did, something would be very wrong because there are other archetypes that do it. Would it be nice to feel like I did more? I suppose so, but then it wouldn't really be fair to the other archetypes that don't have any buffs or debuffs worth a damn.[*]Tornelco's build costing a lot... well, yes, do you think soloing GMs and AVs should be cheap and easy? Go ask the scrapper boards how many of them did their av-soloing builds on the cheap. Same with the controllers.[*]Sonic Blast is awesome. I totally agree. Ironically I have a hard time enjoying playing it because the animations annoy me.[*]Dominators are being adjusted to have both their roles considered equally important. Maybe that's a wet test for the defender. I doubt it, but that can give people a smidgen of hope.[*]So, you don't like how defenders do damage? Okay, neat. You see those other ATs out there? Try them, maybe they'll have something you like. I know I like corruptors but don't like defenders as much. That's not indicative of a problem, that's indicative of taste. There are a bunch of guys in this thread who seem to really enjoy their defenders and don't feel they lack for damage.[*]It's late. Who are you people and where's my horse?[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
Nicely stated. I am getting my last forum farm in here because this thread should dwindle away.
[ QUOTE ]
<ul type="square">[*][*]Controllers' buffs and debuffs are less than defenders. That's true. On the other hand, mezzing a spawn for the entirety of its life makes the cuteness of forcefields rather redundant, for example. When comparing a controller's buffs/debuffs to the buffs/debuffs of the defender, remember the controller will usually contribute some damage, and often in many cases, some control too, which relieves the need to lean on his buffs/debuffs. In many cases, this can be a bit of a pain for the defender, where the controller provides less, but needs to provide less.[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
True enough, though in some cases a defense that's already set, that doesn't require any action (or activation times) or thought at all is superior, because it doesn't require a quick reaction, aiming a cone or AoE well, dealing with spread out spawns, or not missing.
[ QUOTE ]
There are a couple of interesting points here that touch on a variety of areas. For example:<ul type="square">[*]Defenders are less likely to be stupid? Eh, I don't think so. I've seen many a defender with one attack in their forties. I've seen more than a few defenders whine about running out of support powers to take and being 'forced' to take something in their epics that can deal damage.[*]Controllers' buffs and debuffs are less than defenders. That's true. On the other hand, mezzing a spawn for the entirety of its life makes the cuteness of forcefields rather redundant, for example. When comparing a controller's buffs/debuffs to the buffs/debuffs of the defender, remember the controller will usually contribute some damage, and often in many cases, some control too, which relieves the need to lean on his buffs/debuffs. In many cases, this can be a bit of a pain for the defender, where the controller provides less, but needs to provide less.[*]Defender damage isn't great. Well, I suppose it's not. My empathy/archery doesn't feel like he hits like a truck, but then if he did, something would be very wrong because there are other archetypes that do it. Would it be nice to feel like I did more? I suppose so, but then it wouldn't really be fair to the other archetypes that don't have any buffs or debuffs worth a damn.[*]Tornelco's build costing a lot... well, yes, do you think soloing GMs and AVs should be cheap and easy? Go ask the scrapper boards how many of them did their av-soloing builds on the cheap. Same with the controllers.[*]Sonic Blast is awesome. I totally agree. Ironically I have a hard time enjoying playing it because the animations annoy me.[*]Dominators are being adjusted to have both their roles considered equally important. Maybe that's a wet test for the defender. I doubt it, but that can give people a smidgen of hope.[*]So, you don't like how defenders do damage? Okay, neat. You see those other ATs out there? Try them, maybe they'll have something you like. I know I like corruptors but don't like defenders as much. That's not indicative of a problem, that's indicative of taste. There are a bunch of guys in this thread who seem to really enjoy their defenders and don't feel they lack for damage.[*]It's late. Who are you people and where's my horse?[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you teach cool lessons?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are a couple of interesting points here that touch on a variety of areas. For example:<ul type="square">[*]Defenders are less likely to be stupid? Eh, I don't think so. I've seen many a defender with one attack in their forties. I've seen more than a few defenders whine about running out of support powers to take and being 'forced' to take something in their epics that can deal damage.[*]Controllers' buffs and debuffs are less than defenders. That's true. On the other hand, mezzing a spawn for the entirety of its life makes the cuteness of forcefields rather redundant, for example. When comparing a controller's buffs/debuffs to the buffs/debuffs of the defender, remember the controller will usually contribute some damage, and often in many cases, some control too, which relieves the need to lean on his buffs/debuffs. In many cases, this can be a bit of a pain for the defender, where the controller provides less, but needs to provide less.[*]Defender damage isn't great. Well, I suppose it's not. My empathy/archery doesn't feel like he hits like a truck, but then if he did, something would be very wrong because there are other archetypes that do it. Would it be nice to feel like I did more? I suppose so, but then it wouldn't really be fair to the other archetypes that don't have any buffs or debuffs worth a damn.[*]Tornelco's build costing a lot... well, yes, do you think soloing GMs and AVs should be cheap and easy? Go ask the scrapper boards how many of them did their av-soloing builds on the cheap. Same with the controllers.[*]Sonic Blast is awesome. I totally agree. Ironically I have a hard time enjoying playing it because the animations annoy me.[*]Dominators are being adjusted to have both their roles considered equally important. Maybe that's a wet test for the defender. I doubt it, but that can give people a smidgen of hope.[*]So, you don't like how defenders do damage? Okay, neat. You see those other ATs out there? Try them, maybe they'll have something you like. I know I like corruptors but don't like defenders as much. That's not indicative of a problem, that's indicative of taste. There are a bunch of guys in this thread who seem to really enjoy their defenders and don't feel they lack for damage.[*]It's late. Who are you people and where's my horse?[/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you teach cool lessons?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well stated Talen.
And no, Talen doesnt give cool lessons. Someone as cool as Talen is not made, they are born.
Being fair, I thought I was purchased in packs of twelve at the supermarket, but that may be eggs. I get them confused some times.
[ QUOTE ]
Being fair, I thought I was purchased in packs of twelve at the supermarket, but that may be eggs. I get them confused some times.
[/ QUOTE ]
You heard it here, Talen Lee was hatched from eggs. That explains the cool.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Being fair, I thought I was purchased in packs of twelve at the supermarket, but that may be eggs. I get them confused some times.
[/ QUOTE ]
You heard it here, Talen Lee was hatched from eggs. That explains the cool.
[/ QUOTE ]
*waits to see how many people suddenly declare their place of birth as "FoodWorks" or something in an effort to appear cool*
Quote:
|
Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
So having not visited defenderville in a while, I just stumbled on this thread and read it in its entirety. On the one hand, Hobo is right, but understates it as he often does - everyone knows no mission in this game has ever been completed with less than 50% of the team being made of healz0ring.
On the other hand, I guess something is wrong with me for soloing almost the entire lifetime of my D/D def because 1) teams often annoy me when I'm on a character capable of soloing well, 2) I find the speed of D/D to fall into the "soloing well" category, and 3) with hentaicles and nightfall damage on top of tar patch, and the enemy rarely hitting me through darkest night, shadowfall, and fearsome stare, it's easy to pull and destroy aggro-cap enemies at a time so missions don't take very long post stamina.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
My thought:
Defenders have been kept at their current damage output because they stack so well. 2 Defenders in a team makes everything just churn easy and fast. 3-4 Defenders or Controllers using alot of defender powers can make everything super easy.
For example I did my first STF the other day in 1hr 20min or so (20min was the last mission). We killed Ghost Widow without even noticing. Team had 2 defenders, 2 controllers, 2 blast, 1 scrap, 1 tank.
Usually when I join a team the comment afterwords is, 'man that was easy', which tells me that my defender is a huge force multiplier.
So having our damage multiplier where it's at keeps the AT at good and well balanced, and not sliding towards overpowered...
(the only caveat here is that some prim/sec combos have almost no dmg bonuses available to them, and those combos are pretty weak when solo in that area. But they can't adjust the dmg multiplier for some power combo's...)
This thread is silly to me because the one thing that drives me crazy in MMOs is the constant "MY HEALER DOESNT DO ENOUGH DPS->WELL MY DPS DOESN'T TANK WELL ENOUGH->WELL MY TANK DOESN'T HAVE GOOD ENOUGH HEALS.
You want damage? Play a rad/sonic.
That's still not enough damage for you? Then why the hell are you playing a defender?
Defenders contribute far too much to a team to act like their damage is such a crucial element of the class.
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders contribute far too much to a team to act like their damage is such a crucial element of the class.
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have an entire secondary powerset specifically devoted to dealing damage. To say that damage for Defenders isn't important is like saying Scrappers don't need to use their defenses or Controllers don't need to use their buffs.
Admittedly, in the right situations, all ATs could probably get by without using their secondaries. That doesn't mean they're not worthwhile or important, however.
Ultimately, I would be happier if Defenders did more damage. Do I think it is necessary? No, but it would sure help in the early levels, at least.
Bye, everybody!
*Champion*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defenders contribute far too much to a team to act like their damage is such a crucial element of the class.
[/ QUOTE ]
Defenders have an entire secondary powerset specifically devoted to dealing damage. To say that damage for Defenders isn't important is like saying Scrappers don't need to use their defenses or Controllers don't need to use their buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where did he say it wasn't important for the class? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but as near as I could tell he meant that individual damage wasn't the *point* of the class. Which is true as far as I can tell.
If you want high individual damage do something else. Defenders are not meant to simply be tougher blasters.
Don't burst anyone's bubble now.
Vigilence needs to be retweaked and I think correctly this thread has stated that soloing is very hard for many (not all) defenders.
I think Vigilence could be tweaked to make soloing Defenders more fun. Adjusting it to give both an Endurance Boost and Recharge boost is one of the good ways to make Defenders work better.
To be honest I feel so bad for Forcefields, that I'm not sure it should just have a Build Up in its Primary just so it can have some way to boost damage. Its a powerful primary, but makes for even more difficult to solo because of having no way to self buff damage.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Defender damage is sub par overall. Once it is accepted you get used to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Despite apologia, the fact remains that defenders hit like girls with muscular dystrophy. I know it's for balance. It's just one of those things that makes you sigh when you are reminded of it. Defenders are still an amazing AT, but just like scrappers aren't known for their debuffs, defenders aren't known for their damage dealing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree Defendes really do bring alot to the table. There is no shame in doing less damage then others.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please name one thing that the defender brings to the table that is not better brought by controllers?
[/ QUOTE ]
So that smiley is actually "smirk"? Huh.
What do controllers have that beats Sonic Blasts?
[/ QUOTE ]
In terms of individual damage or in team scenario?
solo my fire/storm does more st and way more aoe damage than my storm/sonic. Both are heavily IO'd to solo easy AV's with no insp/temps/click accolades.
On a team, heh howl spam ftw.
[ QUOTE ]
Vigilence needs to be retweaked and I think correctly this thread has stated that soloing is very hard for many (not all) defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must admit this particular complaint always leaves me bemused. The AT is advertised from the beginning as a team support AT yet I keep seeing people complain that not all variants can solo well. 
I keep getting the impression that what people are thinking but are not quite willing to say is that they want blaster damage and defender abilities. Thats not likely to happen any time soon. In the mean time you can always go and play a corrupter. Soon you'll even be able to bring them hero side.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vigilence needs to be retweaked and I think correctly this thread has stated that soloing is very hard for many (not all) defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
I must admit this particular complaint always leaves me bemused. The AT is advertised from the beginning as a team support AT yet I keep seeing people complain that not all variants can solo well.
I keep getting the impression that what people are thinking but are not quite willing to say is that they want blaster damage and defender abilities. Thats not likely to happen any time soon. In the mean time you can always go and play a corrupter. Soon you'll even be able to bring them hero side.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, controllers are even more team support based then defenders and as a rule solo better.
That said, I'd like to know what the "baseline" solo capability we should be capable of is. I know my moderately IOd (for recharge) Emp/Dark/Power can solo missions as long as there isn't an EB in them. If theres an EB it depends, some he can take, some not so much. Sure he's not the fastest soloer around but it doesn't feel that bad to me.
[ QUOTE ]
That said, I'd like to know what the "baseline" solo capability we should be capable of is.
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as we know, the "baseline" solo capability is "yes". The "baseline" solo situation is heroic missions not including EBs or AVs (which it is assumed that you're going to bring friends, which is why the mish tells you to do so). It doesn't matter how fast you can manage to get through a heroic mission while alone. All that matters is that you can, though some will take significantly longer than others.
"Baseline survivability" for a defender is relative, depending on the power sets you pick. Some are pretty darn fast and effective, and others can't solo at all.
Too many alts to list.
[ QUOTE ]
"Baseline survivability" for a defender is relative, depending on the power sets you pick. Some are pretty darn fast and effective, and others can't solo at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lack of solo ability for defenders is generally a PEBKAC problem, not a powerset problem.
edit: by this I mean that any powerset combo can solo, assuming a modicum of player skill, adaptability and reasonable expectations (not comparing a TO'd emp/arch with a three billion inf scrapper, for example). Someone else soloing given content faster does not mean that I don't solo well.
[ QUOTE ]
So we all agree that because a single 1 Billion Influence Ultra Cheezy Build Rad/Sonic can do ok damage that defender damage is therefor ok?
Works for me.
I like Defenders in teams btw. They are almost as good as an endless inspiration tray.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, everyone seems to base their controller arguments on Ultra cheezy fire/kinetics builds. Seems fair to me.