Stop complaining ... or Hogwash?
By
AncientSpirit_NA,
Posted on: 2009-06-08 07:25 in Mission Architect
I dont think players stopping complaining about farming will stop the 'nerfs' to the AE.
Two reasons; firstly the Devs stated, before the AE went live, that they did not want it to be used for 'farming'. That statment indicates that the devs themselves do not want it to be used for faming and that (at least in part) are preforming the nerfs under their own initiative.
Secondly; (or rather as an adendum to 'firstly') there have been quite a few cases in the past where they have 'nerfed' things to limit/reduce/stop the farming of highly 'farmed' content. The main example that comes to mind is the 'effective' nerf to the KHTF that came as part of Merits. These actions seem (to my recolection) one-again, to be independent of player complaints.
i'd hate to tell you pendix, but the merit reward for katie came from the average time the katie was run in, not because the dev's wanted people to stop running it so much. when the average time for it was 14-20 mins what did you expect.
QR:
i would also like to point out that i have yet to see any of the "farmers" come on the forums and start screaming that the "anti-farmers" are ruining their play. all i have seen is a bunch of whiny anti-farmers comming on the forums spwewing their hyperbole of how farmers kill the game. enough already. there is already a thread started by mod8 that is for farming discussion and all of these farming threads should be deleted and anyone who starts a new one should be reprimanded for not taking this discussion to the appropriate thread.
here's a question to you all. have you done the same arc over again, even if only once whether it be dev created or MA, because you liked it? if you find the answer is yes, then you my friends are indeed guilty of farming yourselves. since that seems to be the mindset of almost everyone that that is what farming is, with the exception of those that think farming and pl'ing are the same thing. but please go on and keep telling yoursleves that your not farming, one day you might actually realize you are.
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It seems to me that everytime someone finds a problem with MA it turns into a big discussion -- and often ends up with the devs nerfing something great.
For example, power select customization: For story tellers, it would have been great if you could delete certain powers from characters like MM (the pets!!!) But because farmers could exploit this, everyone loses it!
BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FARMERS!!!!
Farmers don't affect the way we play.
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Your last sentence conflicts with the first part of your post, my experiences, and the actions of the Devs.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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All the "best features" you just described is wnat has turned the MA into a giant farm machine. If the Devs are serious about not wanting to encourage farming, something will have to be done eventually, mate.
Besides, before MA all the lowbies that wanted to be PLed seemed to make it to Peregrine just fine.
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Wrong as any mission can be farmed. In addition in your narrowly focused "attempt" to remove the AE bldg from Atlas to get the farmers out of Atlas, you fail to recognize it not about that at all.
Forcing lowbies to go to higher zones to team with friends is not something the devs are going to do at this point. That has to do with people that are playing SA's with friends of varying levels. You have decided this is ALL about farming when the exact oppositie is the reason they are not moving it from Atlas.
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Nothing in this game needs to be balanced around the ability for a lvl 4 to be able to easily team with his lvl 50 buddy. If a 50 and a 4 really want to team up just to hang out anf it isn't about farming or PLing.....then the 50 can Exemplar down and come play in a lower zone. Your reasoning is very weak sauce.
Okay you want cause and effect and you claim that PLing NOT farming PLing doesn't hurt the game or me personally? alright...
1. Was on a pick up group a while back and things went okay until several members dropped. Five of us remained and the new "leader" picked a bank mission (Talos safeguard). We enter the mission and hit the bank defeating everything at the entrance and I head for the vault ASSUMIMG everyone is right behind me. I engage the signature villain (a Boss due to team size) and hold my own for a while with my scrapper but he has a Tsoo Sorceror healing him and I start watching my health drop. I check the mini map and discover ony one other member of the team (used losely at this point) is still in the bank. Eventually I run out of inspirations and die. By then even the one other member of the team is gone from the bank. I hit the hospital and by some miracle we do manage to stop the villain at the Arachnos Flyer and get a mission complete.
Checking badges .. 1 of them was a 3 month vet the others had NO vet badges and none of them had many other badges aside from ones earned doing AE missions. I had debt to work off because NONE of them had apparently ever done a safeguard before and had NO idea there was a signature villain to battle in the back of the bank. I use both hands to manuever and fight with so I usually don't chat much in missions..especially when fighting a boss trying to kill me so trying to EXPLAIN to them at that point they needed to get back to the bank only would have meant I died faster. So how has their RAPID accent in skill without any experience other than killing thigs on a PL farm NOT affected me?
2. Joined a Maticore TF and we had 8 members after about 10 minutes of recruiting (early afternoon during the week so that was pretty good). Everyone is in zone except 1 32 level and we explain he needs to get to Brickstown before we can start. Minutes pass and we ask if he's on the way. At that point we get a message asking where Brickstown is? *sigh* We expalin its one of the scheduled stops on the Green Line Just go to the train and you will be there in no time. Minutes pass again and now its Where is the green line? A 32 level that has no idea where Brickstown or the green line are located? Well the leader Kicked him after a quick vote in tells and we managed to find another to replace him. All this added about 15 minutes before we could start the TF. So thanks to someone who obviously made the majority of his levels in AE we spent more time waiting for him to arrive than we did initially recruiting. And that doesn't affect me or the other members of the TF?
Farming in and of itself is not the problem. Farms in one form or another have existed as long as this game has.. the problem now is these AE farms are producing high level characters that have no clue how to play the game. They have trouble just getting from point a to point b and now they are out there driving other players insane with their lack of knowledge or experience. No your idea is hogwash. NC soft considers those PL farms to be against their rules, just like they consider the groups that constantly Email us trying to sell influence/infamy. I have nothing against old school farmers like the ones in PI.. heck when there were no other teams to be had I have joined them and picked up a few bars for the next level. But a farm that allows a 1 level to make 50 in hours and then unleashes him on an unsuspecting COH population? Anyone that reports them is by no means wrong.
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You're getting it all wrong. This isn't an issue with farming, nor is this an issue with PL. This is an issue with AE. One could play through a bunch of <ahem> "fun" AE arcs, level slowly, and still have this problem, since AE is designed in such a way that you only need to find your way from City Hall to the AE to make it to 50.
I'm generally pro-farming, but I think I could support zone level limitations on AE, just to encourage people to move around the world a little bit. Hopefully going rogue will accomplish this in a more elegant way.
QR
Farming is not against the rules. Exploiting the MA for insane gains is. Patience is needed for new players wether they used the MA for their "high level" character or they started out in Atlas running a sewer team.
I would hope that a new player who has spent most of their time in the MA would soon realize how much they are missing out on and would soon roll a new character to experience everything outside of the MA system. This is after all an alt-itis based MMO.
Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
Quote:
| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
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It seems to me that everytime someone finds a problem with MA it turns into a big discussion -- and often ends up with the devs nerfing something great.
For example, power select customization: For story tellers, it would have been great if you could delete certain powers from characters like MM (the pets!!!) But because farmers could exploit this, everyone loses it!
BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FARMERS!!!!
Farmers don't affect the way we play.
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Your last sentence conflicts with the first part of your post, my experiences, and the actions of the Devs.
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You're right. And that was part of the point of my post. By themselves, farmers do nothing to affect the way we play. In my opinion, it is our reaction to farmers that wind up affecting the way we play.
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... there is already a thread started by mod8 that is for farming discussion and all of these farming threads should be deleted and anyone who starts a new one should be reprimanded for not taking this discussion to the appropriate thread.
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"all of THESE farming threads"???? This ISN'T a farming thread, though many people talk about farming. Go back and read the OP. The reaction to farmers was just an EXAMPLE of what the OP (me) was referring to.
The issue raised could just have easily turned to people who complained about how some AT powers being "too powerful" until they were nerfed. I didn't want to state all examples that ocurred to me because I was looking to see if others joined in.
Calling for mod's to "reprimand" a poster because you don't like the turn a thread takes is ... infantile and inappropriate. If you don't want to discuss an issue, don't.
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... here's a question to you all. have you done the same arc over again, even if only once whether it be dev created or MA, because you liked it? if you find the answer is yes, then you my friends are indeed guilty of farming yourselves. since that seems to be the mindset of almost everyone that that is what farming is, with the exception of those that think farming and pl'ing are the same thing. but please go on and keep telling yoursleves that your not farming, one day you might actually realize you are.
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And then after asking for a thread to be exiled to an "official" farming thread (though it isn't a farming post) ... and asking for the OP to be reprimanded ... you THEN go on to talk about farming. Are you SERIOUS???? Are you being hypocritical or merely trolling?
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Okay you want cause and effect and you claim that PLing NOT farming PLing doesn't hurt the game or me personally? alright...
1. Was on a pick up group a while back and things went okay until several members dropped. Five of us remained and the new "leader" picked a bank mission (Talos safeguard). We enter the mission and hit the bank defeating everything at the entrance and I head for the vault ASSUMIMG everyone is right behind me. I engage the signature villain (a Boss due to team size) and hold my own for a while with my scrapper but he has a Tsoo Sorceror healing him and I start watching my health drop. I check the mini map and discover ony one other member of the team (used losely at this point) is still in the bank. Eventually I run out of inspirations and die. By then even the one other member of the team is gone from the bank. I hit the hospital and by some miracle we do manage to stop the villain at the Arachnos Flyer and get a mission complete.
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I know you checked badges and these were newbies. But are YOU a newbie?
I have been burnt more than once by veteran players who dash off to the bank - seemingly just the way you did -- without making sure that no one was headed to the bank before everyone loaded.
As a vet, aren't you the one who should say the obvious? No one starts until everyone loads. Everyone goes directly to the bank once everyone is in mission. Do we or don't we want to do side missions? You are at least partially at fault.
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2. Joined a Maticore TF and we had 8 members after about 10 minutes of recruiting (early afternoon during the week so that was pretty good). Everyone is in zone except 1 32 level and we explain he needs to get to Brickstown before we can start. Minutes pass and we ask if he's on the way. At that point we get a message asking where Brickstown is? *sigh* We expalin its one of the scheduled stops on the Green Line Just go to the train and you will be there in no time. Minutes pass again and now its Where is the green line? A 32 level that has no idea where Brickstown or the green line are located? Well the leader Kicked him after a quick vote in tells and we managed to find another to replace him. All this added about 15 minutes before we could start the TF. So thanks to someone who obviously made the majority of his levels in AE we spent more time waiting for him to arrive than we did initially recruiting. And that doesn't affect me or the other members of the TF?
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You have me on this one. I know I often ask newbie question like how do I get to Crey's, because I'm old and I forget. But Brickstown? Sheesh.
To be fair though, I have been equally inconvenienced by vets who do know how to get to Bricks ... but decide to stop off and level and go shopping before joining a team. And THEN decide ... after making a team wait ... that they're just going to log. As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does."
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No your idea is hogwash. NC soft considers those PL farms to be against their rules, just like they consider the groups that constantly Email us trying to sell influence/infamy. I have nothing against old school farmers like the ones in PI.. heck when there were no other teams to be had I have joined them and picked up a few bars for the next level. But a farm that allows a 1 level to make 50 in hours and then unleashes him on an unsuspecting COH population? Anyone that reports them is by no means wrong.
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My idea may be hogwash. I saw that early on. But please be clear. My hogwash idea was NOT about farmers. It was about how our complaints have changed the game ... it included farming ... but it also includes changes to powers in PvE ... changes in how PvP are handled, etc.
Actually the moment you begin to use the term weaksauce you have condemmed your point to the dustbin.
What you fail to realize is its the devs feature and they don't want the 50 to "have" to ex down they want the choice to be the "players" to ex down or sk up. Restrictive changes just because make no sense.
Beat the idea to death because that is where it will ultimately end up dead. Cheers.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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the problem now is these AE farms are producing high level characters that have no clue how to play the game.
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lol@ having no patience to "teach" them
then again....
lol@ teaming with noobs.
I've seen many vet players play as noob like as a noob, sometimes even more so.
Even worse, lol @ PuGs
Coalition/SG ftw
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Actually the moment you begin to use the term weaksauce you have condemmed your point to the dustbin.
What you fail to realize is its the devs feature and they don't want the 50 to "have" to ex down they want the choice to be the "players" to ex down or sk up. Restrictive changes just because make no sense.
Beat the idea to death because that is where it will ultimately end up dead. Cheers.
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It's an iditoic idea that flys in the face of the sk system. Having to force a lowbie to go to a highbie zone is a non-starter. This isn't the idiotic days of evercrack.
It's as STUPID a suggestion as the ol "level lock PI and Grandville cause I can't filter out my b-cast channels and I'm a baby and need hand holding from the devs, WAHHHH" ideas were.
The Devs DO want lowbies team with highbies and vice versa.
End of story. If folks can't get over that they need to get the F out and find a new game. End of story.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Actually the moment you begin to use the term weaksauce you have condemmed your point to the dustbin.
What you fail to realize is its the devs feature and they don't want the 50 to "have" to ex down they want the choice to be the "players" to ex down or sk up. Restrictive changes just because make no sense.
Beat the idea to death because that is where it will ultimately end up dead. Cheers.
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It's an iditoic idea that flys in the face of the sk system. Having to force a lowbie to go to a highbie zone is a non-starter. This isn't the idiotic days of evercrack.
It's as STUPID a suggestion as the ol "level lock PI and Grandville cause I can't filter out my b-cast channels and I'm a baby and need hand holding from the devs, WAHHHH" ideas were.
The Devs DO want lowbies team with highbies and vice versa.
End of story. If folks can't get over that they need to get the F out and find a new game. End of story.
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QFT
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... iditoic ... STUPID ... WAHHHH ... get the F out ...
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This kind of attitude and these kinds of words have no place in a civil discussion, no matter how heated that discussion gets.
It's also a lame form of debate, filled with sound and fury ... (and you know how the rest of that expression goes)!
You are better than this. And your arguments are better than this. Please try again ... but without all the belittling and name calling.
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... iditoic ... STUPID ... WAHHHH ... get the F out ...
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This kind of attitude and these kinds of words have no place in a civil discussion, no matter how heated that discussion gets.
It's also a lame form of debate, filled with sound and fury ... (and you know how the rest of that expression goes)!
You are better than this. And your arguments are better than this. Please try again ... but without all the belittling and name calling.
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Sure:
It's a terrible suggestion that destroys one of the best and most innovative features of COH. The one the defined this mmo as one the breaks the mold: the sk system.
It's as a terrible a suggestion as level locking PI and Grandville, which aren't at all meant to be hazzard zones.
The devs intend for folks to be able to go from 1-50 in the MA, which basically NECESSITATES the MA being in Atlas.
Folks that don't like the key feature of the game: that lowbies and highbies can team without restrictions need to find another mmo, as that feature is NOT going away.
Better?
EDIT: Further more there are many options to alleviate people's "I can't stand the b-cast spam" problem without destroying COH's teaming. Cause it most certainly is their problem.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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... iditoic ... STUPID ... WAHHHH ... get the F out ...
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This kind of attitude and these kinds of words have no place in a civil discussion, no matter how heated that discussion gets.
It's also a lame form of debate, filled with sound and fury ... (and you know how the rest of that expression goes)!
You are better than this. And your arguments are better than this. Please try again ... but without all the belittling and name calling.
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Sure:
It's a terrible suggestion that destroys one of the best and most innovative features of COH. The one the defined this mmo as one the breaks the mold: the sk system.
It's as a terrible a suggestion as level locking PI and Grandville, which aren't at all meant to be hazzard zones.
The devs intend for folks to be able to go from 1-50 in the MA, which basically NECESSITATES the MA being in Atlas.
Folks that don't like the key feature of the game: that lowbies and highbies can team without restrictions need to find another mmo, as that feature is NOT going away.
Better?
EDIT: Further more there are many options to alleviate people's "I can't stand the b-cast spam" problem without destroying COH's teaming. Cause it most certainly is their problem.
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Absolutely better.
And by the way, I happen to think you're right!
And there are other legitimate reason for MA to be in Atlas:
1) There are only so many sewer teams one can do before getting bored.
2) Without travel powers, getting missions in Atlas that make you run from one corner of the map to another, isn't just boring, its frustrating.
3) Even when you're not teamed up with a higher level, its fun to be auto boosted in level and fight against new toons. (But just like fighting in sewers its better when you have at least a couple of attacks under your belt.)
<QR>
If anyone is bothered by the broadcast spam coming outta AE, might I be so bold as to suggest that they turn off that channel? Or ignore those that are spamming.
Don't be so lazy.
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My biggest problem with the MA is that Peregrine and Grandville are now ghost towns. I can't find anyone to team with to do lvl 50 stuff except AE farmers. I don't mind soloing at lower levels, but at 50 I do mostly Trials and SF/TF, which takes more people. Guess it just shows that the majority of players are perfectly happy farming away rather than playing the game.
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they are also happy not having to pay some outlandish fee for getting pl'd. which is why alot of peeps have been bashing AE farmers.
personally, I get my sg all on the same team, we get into voice chat, cut up, rip on eachother and have a blast. we are all experienced vets, we are bored with regular content, we dont like tf's and such. We dont advertise what we are doing, we dont use any exploits, we keep to ourselves.
there are those that broadcast their farms and that I am against.
there are also those that beg for farms, Which I am also against. <a few of them have shown to be quite the nefarious spammers=imashaaaaaark.>
At some point especially on this subject since it varies from case to case, everyone is right and everyone is wrong.
welcome to earth; land of confusion. Ima make such a profit off this war.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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Nothing in this game needs to be balanced around the ability for a lvl 4 to be able to easily team with his lvl 50 buddy.
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But it needs to be balanced around your dislike of a particular type of broadcast spam in Atlas?
The game has been designed to accommodate people who want to play together, regardless of character level. First it was sidekicking, then came the exemplar system, the GM code, auto-exemping, and so on, right up to MA's level adjustments.
I really don't think the developers are going to do a complete 180 on that design philosophy, just because you can't find a "sewer team" in Atlas Park.
Do you remember a time when there wasn't any such thing as a sewer team? I do. There's nothing saying the practice can't vanish as quickly as it appeared. Given the purpose of sewer teams--to blow through those early levels as fast as possible--I wouldn't be surprised if MA makes the routine obsolete, with or without the involvement of 50s.
But, assuming sewer teams aren't going to go the way of street hunting in Brickstown, you have options, as a player, to deal with broadcast spam and find the kind of team you want. You can separate broadcast from other channels by putting it in its own tab. You can then filter it with /ignore. You can use /request for your sewer teams. You can even utilize server-focused globals for team building and the server forum for scheduling.
If you've done all that and still can't get that sewer team going? Well, maybe it's time to entertain the possibility that the practice is just on the way out. If that's what's happening, driving 50s out of the Atlas AE won't change it.
Ultimately, if you're expecting the developers to cater to your convenience and narrow play preference at the expense of the convenience of the broader player base, well... don't hold your breath.
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Nothing in this game needs to be balanced around the ability for a lvl 4 to be able to easily team with his lvl 50 buddy.
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But it needs to be balanced around your dislike of a particular type of broadcast spam in Atlas?
The game has been designed to accommodate people who want to play together, regardless of character level. First it was sidekicking, then came the exemplar system, the GM code, auto-exemping, and so on, right up to MA's level adjustments.
I really don't think the developers are going to do a complete 180 on that design philosophy, just because you can't find a "sewer team" in Atlas Park.
Do you remember a time when there wasn't any such thing as a sewer team? I do. There's nothing saying the practice can't vanish as quickly as it appeared. Given the purpose of sewer teams--to blow through those early levels as fast as possible--I wouldn't be surprised if MA makes the routine obsolete, with or without the involvement of 50s.
But, assuming sewer teams aren't going to go the way of street hunting in Brickstown, you have options, as a player, to deal with broadcast spam and find the kind of team you want. You can separate broadcast from other channels by putting it in its own tab. You can then filter it with /ignore. You can use /request for your sewer teams. You can even utilize server-focused globals for team building and the server forum for scheduling.
If you've done all that and still can't get that sewer team going? Well, maybe it's time to entertain the possibility that the practice is just on the way out. If that's what's happening, driving 50s out of the Atlas AE won't change it.
Ultimately, if you're expecting the developers to cater to your convenience and narrow play preference at the expense of the convenience of the broader player base, well... don't hold your breath.
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Several good ideas here. I especially like (and will use) the one about putting broadcast in its own tab.
I think farm, and lff should be added to the profanity list. 
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I think farm, and lff should be added to the profanity list.
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When they add lfsewer team and costume contest starting sure.
Cause I find those to be inane drivel also.
What, you mean they don't decide what isn't and isn't allowed in b-cast based on folks that are too lazy to not know how to go just put folks on ignore or simply ignore b-cast drivel?
You don't say. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I can't believe a level 50 doesn't have 10k to buy a wentworths tp or can't park at a wentworths for 21 days (plus a few) to earn free wentworths tps to solve this issue. Either will take you from any zone to the wentworths of your choosing - including the one in Steel. (where you could buy another wentwroth's tper, before heading back to Peregrine Island via the O-portal.)
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The point is why should I have to? The idea is a non-solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist, that would negatively impact peoples' gameplay. Not just my gameplay, mind, but the gameplay of any low level character who wants to SK up with a high level character doing non-farming MA missions. Said low level character will have to traverse to Steel Canyon, then to Talos Island, then to Peregrine Island. When I could just go to whatever zone he's at with one of my numerous methods of easy travel from being such a high level and not have to contend with higher level enemies like the lowbie would.
You've got a problem with tons of people spamming broadcast in Atlas? Huh. Sounds like Atlas since the beginning of time. This is why I start every one of my heroes in Galaxy. See? Problem freakin' solved.