Stop complaining ... or Hogwash?
By
AncientSpirit_NA,
Posted on: 2009-06-08 07:25 in Mission Architect
So now we're blaming the whistleblowers? Sorry, but that sounds like hogwash to me.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
I understand that it SOUNDS like hogwash. And I'm not looking to "blame" anyone.
However, a reasonable person could see a "cause and effect" relationship here. And there are entire books written about the law of "unintended consequences."
I could list other examples, but I think if only one person cites examples that it lends credence to your "hogwash" claim. If others join in and cite their observations then perhaps the argument is justified.
I am more than happy to be wrong here but fear that I'm not.
The Devs would have to do some extreme changes to affect my enjoyment of the game.
Nerfing aspects of MA/AE will not drive me from the game personally.
From the word go I, personally, knew that the released content would not be the same as, say, 3 weeks down the line.
Of course people were going to use all the exploits they could find. I bet my bottom dollar that some were in test trying to find those exploits and keep them to themselves in hopes of abusing it to their advantage for as long as possible.
It happens. Especially with anything remotely like MA. I have the skeletons of my stories sitting in deep freeze till I know what I am working with in MA. And that may not be set in stone for another month imo.
So, if I have a complaint, yes I will complain. As will you and everyone else.
And rezzers? Giving them the old Portal Treatment would not be game breaking....in the least.
In fact, I had no idea folks were doing that and do hope it is changed.
Thanks for your time if you read, if not, thanks for something :P
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The Devs would have to do some extreme changes to affect my enjoyment of the game.
Nerfing aspects of MA/AE will not drive me from the game personally.
From the word go I, personally, knew that the released content would not be the same as, say, 3 weeks down the line.
Of course people were going to use all the exploits they could find. I bet my bottom dollar that some were in test trying to find those exploits and keep them to themselves in hopes of abusing it to their advantage for as long as possible.
It happens. Especially with anything remotely like MA. I have the skeletons of my stories sitting in deep freeze till I know what I am working with in MA. And that may not be set in stone for another month imo.
So, if I have a complaint, yes I will complain. As will you and everyone else.
And rezzers? Giving them the old Portal Treatment would not be game breaking....in the least.
In fact, I had no idea folks were doing that and do hope it is changed.
Thanks for your time if you read, if not, thanks for something :P
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Thanks for replying. In light of your response and KeepDistance, I have changed the name of the thread to include the possibility that I am entirely wrong here.
However, I'm not asking if anything is so severe as to drive you from the game. I truly enjoy CoH and this is not a "they nerfed it so I'm leaving" thread.
I'm just wondering if some of our complaints haven't backfired on us, and if so which ones?
As of now, some 48 players have read this post and not one has an example of me being right. 
And if silence is any judge, it appears I may be wrong. (which wouldn't be a bad thing.)
Has NO ONE thought this but me?
The best possible solution to this problem is to make it so any given critter can only be rezzed once. Obviously, that will take extra coding and thus won't be the easiest or quickest solution. But as far as I can tell, it's the best.
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... please!!!!
Everytime someone finds a problem with MA it turns into a big disccussion -- and often ends up with the devs nerfing something great.
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Like what? What "great" things have we lost?
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For example, power select customization: For story tellers, it would have been great if you could delete certain powers from characters like MM (the pets!!!) But because farmers could exploit this, everyone loses it!
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Actually, I'm pretty sure this is Dev fiat, and not an anti-farming ploy. I'm pretty sure that, since they are "Summoning sets," the Devs decided that they should have to summon at least once. I see this as an oversight, maybe to be corrected, maybe not. Critters use the critter damage scale, and not the MM damage scale, so a petless matermind might actually be a threat as a custom critter.
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BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FARMERS!!!!
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Agreed! Of course, the only place the farmers are being asked to control their agricultural tendencies is the Mission Architect. Every other plot of land where they grew crops is still around, waiting to be harvested.
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Farmers don't affect the way we play.
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Wrong. Farmers have an effect on the game as a whole, some good, some bad. The good is that they keep the market supplied. The bad is that they sometimes pester other players to pad their teams so they can get maximum yield. With Issue 14, famers clogged the architect with farms, spam every zone's broadcast, not just PI and GV, and powerleveled hordes of new players past the part where they actually play the game.
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But by fighting against them tooth and nail we keep affecting the way WE play. It's self-defeating.
I'm not talking about exposing exploits. But I am talking about exposing "exploits" that if dev's fixed would destroy your enjoyment of the game.
We complained about farmers getting rewards too fast. And it resulted in everyone getting rewarded at HALF the rate. Who do you think this hurts most? Farmers? Or people who don't farm?
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What?!? Rewarded at half the rate? Since when. Enemy mobs in the Architect, except for Rikti Comm officers give exactly the same XP as they do "in the world." No travel time makes up for the lack of mision and arc completion XP, at least through the 20s. The ticket cap? I bang into it very rarely. Were you seriously making over 2400 tickets per mission in missions that weren't farms?
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The most recent example: I'm reading a current thread about people wanting devs to "fix" rezzors because some nincompoop tells everybody that players can kill a boss over and over, and let the rezzor keep rezzing him ... for tons of experience. The proposed solution: "fix" rezzors!" Eliminate them from the game or allow them to rez once or eliminate experience after the first defeat. This is all absurd!
If some farmer wants to spend 2 hours killing the same boss over and over again, it will not affect you or me. But "fix" rezzors and destroy your ability to use them the way they were meant to be used is ridiculous.
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It seems to me that the fix is pretty easy. Put the Custom Critter rez powers on a 20-30 minute timer, and it will never be up again before the second defeat. Any farmer willing to wait around that long for the NPC rez to recharge is a horrible farmer. This will still let mobs rez themselves once, as they are supposed to.
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We are shooting at vermin with elephant guns ... and all we are accomplishing is blowing giant holes in our own MA homes.
While I know that many of you will use this thread (if you use it at all) to tell me that I'm wrong.
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No, we arent. What is happening is that you are overreacting. The sky isn't falling. Cooler heads will prevail.
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But I would much prefer it if you used this thread to cite example after example of what has been lost to the everyday non-farming player because of "fixes" that were supposed to address the problem of farming. Thanks.
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Like I said, I bang into the ticket cap very rarely, so the impact of that fix is minimal. The loss of commonly farmed badges will have a minor effect on me, mostly because the badges that I lose that I have, I earned through normal play, and not farming them. I can see how someone who specifically hunted those badges, and jumped through hoops to get them would be upset. I never used the "broken" mobs. The removed maps were removed because they were having problems with critters appearing either inside the geometry making them untargetable, or they were appearing outside the map altogether. Once these problems are fixed, I expect to see those maps, i.e.; Perez Burning Map, etc., restored.
What is this "great loss" that you are lamenting? I simply don't see it.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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I truly enjoy CoH and this is not a "they nerfed it so I'm leaving" thread.
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That was the feeling I was getting 
Here's to a civil discussion.
I am at work so I can't get too involved, but I hope it goes well.
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What is happening is that you are overreacting. The sky isn't falling. Cooler heads will prevail.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
My biggest problem with the MA is that Peregrine and Grandville are now ghost towns. I can't find anyone to team with to do lvl 50 stuff except AE farmers. I don't mind soloing at lower levels, but at 50 I do mostly Trials and SF/TF, which takes more people. Guess it just shows that the majority of players are perfectly happy farming away rather than playing the game.
I don't get this at all. What are your like minded friends doing? Freedom has people running ALL of the content, what server are you on?
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Like what? What "great" things have we lost?
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The only two "great" losses I cite are 1) the ability to create a custom boss that is LESS than the standard; and 2) the mission reward of MA tickets (not experience or prestige) that were lost because of complaints about farming.
I don't belive I said - nor was it my intention to say - that the sky was falling. And I have openly said I could be entirely wrong about this ... so much so that I renamed the thread.
And yet ...
I must admit that after doing a simple test the other day, something does bother me: I and a friend ran a totally story-driven arc - comprised of minions, Lts. and one EB at the end -- and received something like 60 bonus MA tickets for completing it.We then ran a 1 mission all LT. farm, completed it in record time, and each got 500+ bonus MA tickets for mission completion.
To me its pointless to complain about farms because I believe that they will always be there. But it bothers me that story arcs are the ones that really takes the hit when devs come up with their "fixes".
And believe me, I realize that I could be saying the same thing if tickets hadn't been adjusted. While that story arc would have netted me 120 MA tickets, the farm would have delivered 1,000. I get it. But farms go by so quickly and are so mindless that you could just do it twice and get the 1,000 now .. or run it ten times, no sweat. I doubt people would ever play story ads that frequently.
My frustration grows out of my attempt to do a follow up story to "Wicked, Wicked Wonderland" - an arc that has been played far more often than I ever thought it would. Losing the ability to truly customize the EB (lower) than a standard mob is an irritant. (Notice, not a rant here ... I believe that there is always a workaround.)
And as I said before, the lack of anyone else who experienced the same feelings that I've had latedly may just mean that I'm completely off base here.
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My biggest problem with the MA is that Peregrine and Grandville are now ghost towns. I can't find anyone to team with to do lvl 50 stuff except AE farmers. I don't mind soloing at lower levels, but at 50 I do mostly Trials and SF/TF, which takes more people. Guess it just shows that the majority of players are perfectly happy farming away rather than playing the game.
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Don't forget the other side of this coin. I've seen numerous broadcasts in AP to the effect of "Lvl 46 AE team lfm, no lowbies". Ironically, the person broadcasting this message is usually level 6. He doesn't want the team to carry YOU on their backs, that would detract from them carrying HIM.
Seriously, anything that makes AP less lowbie friendly is probably not a good idea.
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The only two "great" losses I cite are 1) the ability to create a custom boss that is LESS than the standard;
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We technically never had that, though. It was literally on test for a week. And there's going to be changed to custom critters in the next test patch according to Castle.
And as far as I'm concerned, the ticket gain is looking just fine to me. On missions using the dance club map, which is a tiny freaking map, I still get like 200 some odd tickets solo if I kill everything on the map. On a full team I get considerably more. Obviously all LT farms are going to give you more tickets, because that's how tickets work. From the looks of it, the developers really don't give a damn how many tickets you set your mission to give, unless it's an absurd number. In that case, you'll be hitting the ticket cap. Which, by the way, I've hit exactly once since it was put in, and I do MA teams more than once a week.
I really think you frustration is getting the best of you.
The devs are basically "still" trying to figure out the MA critters settings. The had a major oversight with melee toons and no ranged attack EVENTHOUGH they had gone through the exact same issue with the wolves YEARS ago. Now people irrationally blame farmers for this change. Brilliant.
I don't think that the devs have totally worked out what they see as balanced and they need to consider a lot more than they do for PvE.
The ticket cap is in a way like merits adjustment. They needed some data to go by and when they got it they made the adjustment they felt was proper. They told u they were going to do this when they announced MA.
What I see going on here is nothing more than scapgoating, it is something that went on before MA and willl always be there.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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What I see going on here is nothing more than scapegoating, it is something that went on before MA and will always be there.
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QFT
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It seems to me that everytime someone finds a problem with MA it turns into a big discussion -- and often ends up with the devs nerfing something great.
For example, power select customization: For story tellers, it would have been great if you could delete certain powers from characters like MM (the pets!!!) But because farmers could exploit this, everyone loses it!
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BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FARMERS!!!!
Farmers don't affect the way we play. But by fighting against them tooth and nail we keep affecting the way WE play. It's self-defeating.
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Farmers, and I mean the grind-to-fifty mindlessly farmers, not the "I'm a lvl 50 fire/kin with massive IOs that wall sweeps for drops", do affect the way we play. Instead of joining normal teams and contributing to the game world by become skilled, knowledgeable players, they instead grind away in the Atlas/Cap AE, never actually engaging the core game. Which isn't so bad if you've already played the core game umpteen times; but if you're relatively new, we end up with people who can't find Steel Canyon and complain that they can't figure out how to get a cape.
They spam broadcast mindlessly instead of using the LFT flag properly, they spam the AE with shallow farm missions, usually so lazily designed that they are inefficient even as farms, and generally generate an unpleasant atmosphere for everyone, including themselves.
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I'm not talking about exposing exploits. But I am talking about exposing "exploits" that if dev's fixed would destroy your enjoyment of the game.
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So... exploits that are not exploits because they are fun? Fun for who? We have arbiters of allowable fun already; they are called the devs. If I report that there's an exploit because I think I get too much XP for killing Malta, and Malta should be tougher, I'll get ignored.
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We complained about farmers getting rewards too fast. And it resulted in everyone getting rewarded at HALF the rate. Who do you think this hurts most? Farmers? Or people who don't farm?
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I don't recall getting my XP cut. Or my Influence cut. I've hit the ticket cap exactly twice on missions, and once only because I ran around and killed everything on the map after the final bonus. What is this reduction in rewards?
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The most recent example: I'm reading a current thread about people wanting devs to "fix" rezzors because some nincompoop tells everybody that players can kill a boss over and over, and let the rezzor keep rezzing him ... for tons of experience. The proposed solution: "fix" rezzors!" Eliminate them from the game or allow them to rez once or eliminate experience after the first defeat. This is all absurd!
If some farmer wants to spend 2 hours killing the same boss over and over again, it will not affect you or me. But "fix" rezzors and destroy your ability to use them the way they were meant to be used is ridiculous.
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Any reason why changing the recharge to 20 minutes or similar will prevent them from being used they way they are meant to be? I don't see that as impeding my gameplay, that an enemy will rez or be rezzed one (1) time rather than infinitely?
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We are shooting at vermin with elephant guns ... and all we are accomplishing is blowing giant holes in our own MA homes.
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You know what the biggest hole in the MA is? Last night I spent 10 minutes looking for a short AE mission to run solo on my blaster that wasn't a farm. There are literally dozens of pages of poorly-assembled wanna-be farms.
Player misuse is the flaw of the MA, and cannot be cured.
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It seems to me that everytime someone finds a problem with MA it turns into a big discussion -- and often ends up with the devs nerfing something great.
For example, power select customization: For story tellers, it would have been great if you could delete certain powers from characters like MM (the pets!!!) But because farmers could exploit this, everyone loses it!
[/ QUOTE ]
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BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FARMERS!!!!
Farmers don't affect the way we play. But by fighting against them tooth and nail we keep affecting the way WE play. It's self-defeating.
[/ QUOTE ]
Farmers, and I mean the grind-to-fifty mindlessly farmers, not the "I'm a lvl 50 fire/kin with massive IOs that wall sweeps for drops", do affect the way we play. Instead of joining normal teams and contributing to the game world by become skilled, knowledgeable players, they instead grind away in the Atlas/Cap AE, never actually engaging the core game. Which isn't so bad if you've already played the core game umpteen times; but if you're relatively new, we end up with people who can't find Steel Canyon and complain that they can't figure out how to get a cape.
They spam broadcast mindlessly instead of using the LFT flag properly, they spam the AE with shallow farm missions, usually so lazily designed that they are inefficient even as farms, and generally generate an unpleasant atmosphere for everyone, including themselves.
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I'm not talking about exposing exploits. But I am talking about exposing "exploits" that if dev's fixed would destroy your enjoyment of the game.
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So... exploits that are not exploits because they are fun? Fun for who? We have arbiters of allowable fun already; they are called the devs. If I report that there's an exploit because I think I get too much XP for killing Malta, and Malta should be tougher, I'll get ignored.
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We complained about farmers getting rewards too fast. And it resulted in everyone getting rewarded at HALF the rate. Who do you think this hurts most? Farmers? Or people who don't farm?
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I don't recall getting my XP cut. Or my Influence cut. I've hit the ticket cap exactly twice on missions, and once only because I ran around and killed everything on the map after the final bonus. What is this reduction in rewards?
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The most recent example: I'm reading a current thread about people wanting devs to "fix" rezzors because some nincompoop tells everybody that players can kill a boss over and over, and let the rezzor keep rezzing him ... for tons of experience. The proposed solution: "fix" rezzors!" Eliminate them from the game or allow them to rez once or eliminate experience after the first defeat. This is all absurd!
If some farmer wants to spend 2 hours killing the same boss over and over again, it will not affect you or me. But "fix" rezzors and destroy your ability to use them the way they were meant to be used is ridiculous.
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Any reason why changing the recharge to 20 minutes or similar will prevent them from being used they way they are meant to be? I don't see that as impeding my gameplay, that an enemy will rez or be rezzed one (1) time rather than infinitely?
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We are shooting at vermin with elephant guns ... and all we are accomplishing is blowing giant holes in our own MA homes.
[/ QUOTE ]
You know what the biggest hole in the MA is? Last night I spent 10 minutes looking for a short AE mission to run solo on my blaster that wasn't a farm. There are literally dozens of pages of poorly-assembled wanna-be farms.
Player misuse is the flaw of the MA, and cannot be cured.
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OK. So I see that you, at least, remain undecided about the issue. 
Any sort of sandbox element relies on players to behave constructively. In SWG, you could build your own buildings in-game. The server-side city of CoroNet on Corellia was surrounded by a green doughnut of no-build space, which is turn had a belt of highly developed player-buildings that took up more space than Corellia itself.
For shoppers, this was incredibly convenient. Just a bunch of buildings close together offering all the goods a player might need. Guns, armor, resources, and so forth.
For those running missions, it was a nightmare. Enemy spawns would get stuck inside buildings, mission targets would end up in the wrong places, enemies would wind up on top of buildings and be easy targets for ranged attackers and impossible to reach for melee users.
To get to the point, I'm very torn on the so-called "issue." I believe the devs should savagely cut MA rewards until the farmers move elsewhere, implement better tools for finding missions for a given level range, and improve the flexibility of the MA. Then, rewards should be gradually increased over a period of weeks until the devs find a happy medium between story building and farming that suits them.
If they "savagely" cut the rewards given in MA as you suggest. MA would be a ghost town.
The Devs spent over a year getting MA ready for us to use and used alot of their time and resources (money) to do it.
I don't think it would look good on them if MA was a ghost town. How would they explain that to their bosses?
It's in their best interest to show that it was all worth the money spent by having MA used as much as possible by all subs.
Making it appealing to only a small community of "authors" wouldn't cut it and someone would most likely get fired for wasting company resources.
You will never see them cut rewards to MA to the extent that you are suggesting.
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Like what? What "great" things have we lost?
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The only two "great" losses I cite are 1) the ability to create a custom boss that is LESS than the standard; and 2) the mission reward of MA tickets (not experience or prestige) that were lost because of complaints about farming.
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See, this (bolded part) is where I think you're off the mark. I think the devs would have made those changes whether anyone had complained or not. The devs aren't blind, and they have datamining hooks to tell them things that happen when they're not personally online. The exploit potential for MA is obvious from the get-go, and it's really just a question of how big the holes are and how fast they can close them.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever..none.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Farmers don't affect the way we play.
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If a practice is common enough, it affects the play environment, which affects the way we all play.
But what's more important to the devs is if that practice is going to affect the bottom line.
Farming happens. It will always happen. If people want something, a lot of them will farm for it. That's just the way it is, and it's usually not a big deal.
But if it ever starts to negatively impact their model, the developers will step in. They've a business to protect.
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We complained about farmers getting rewards too fast. And it resulted in everyone getting rewarded at HALF the rate.
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The amount of tickets flooding in was playing havoc with the system. Players were obtaining things far easier than they were ever meant to. If there hadn't been a single complaint about it, it still would've been nerfed.
I think your blame is misplaced, and I think you're failing to see the larger picture.
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If some farmer wants to spend 2 hours killing the same boss over and over again, it will not affect you or me.
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Oh, yes it will. But, again, it's more about its potential impact on the bottom line.
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But "fix" rezzors and destroy your ability to use them the way they were meant to be used is ridiculous.
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I'm pretty sure rezzors were never meant to be used that way.
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We are shooting at vermin with elephant guns ... and all we are accomplishing is blowing giant holes in our own MA homes.
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The developers are going to maintain and preserve the game system they've designed, regardless of what players complain about. There is supposed to be a time investment in playing this game. On average, levels are supposed to come at a certain rate. On average, rewards are supposed to come at a certain rate.
If anything breaks that, it's gunna get smished, one way or the other. Nothing we say--or don't say--will change that.
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But I would much prefer it if you used this thread to cite example after example of what has been lost to the everyday non-farming player because of "fixes" that were supposed to address the problem of farming.
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Personally, I've gained a few things over the years. But, again, "farming" isn't the problem. The problem is any behavior that breaks the system as it's been designed, or so negatively impacts the play environment, that enough people simply lose interest and stop playing.
In short: the problem is anything that hurts the bottom line.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
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You will never see them cut rewards to MA to the extent that you are suggesting.
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Something has to, and will be done.
Although i am not pro-cutting rewards, its probably the easiest fix. And by being the easiest fix, will probably be the one that gets implemented by Paragon.
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You will never see them cut rewards to MA to the extent that you are suggesting.
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Something has to, and will be done.
Although i am not pro-cutting rewards, its probably the easiest fix. And by being the easiest fix, will probably be the one that gets implemented by Paragon.
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Please. Just because it's the easiest fix, doesn't mean it's the one they'll do. You don't have an MMO run for 5 years by being stupid. Most MMOs fail to even start or are cut down to 1 or 2 staff members or are shut down completely after a very short period of time. Cutting the rewards across the boards is probably something they will NEVER do, because you can bet your [censored] that it will piss a lot of people off. Not just here on the forums, either. Your average player probably doesn't care too much if he can't use the burning forest map in AE anymore, but if you cut his experience, he's going to notice, and he's going to be pissed.
For the last 5 years, when they found an exploit, they fixed that exploit. It'll happen exactly the same way here.
It seems to me that everytime someone finds a problem with MA it turns into a big discussion -- and often ends up with the devs nerfing something great.
For example, power select customization: For story tellers, it would have been great if you could delete certain powers from characters like MM (the pets!!!) But because farmers could exploit this, everyone loses it!
BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE FARMERS!!!!
Farmers don't affect the way we play. But by fighting against them tooth and nail we keep affecting the way WE play. It's self-defeating.
I'm not talking about exposing exploits. But I am talking about exposing "exploits" that if dev's fixed would destroy your enjoyment of the game.
We complained about farmers getting rewards too fast. And it resulted in everyone getting rewarded at HALF the rate. Who do you think this hurts most? Farmers? Or people who don't farm?
The most recent example: I'm reading a current thread about people wanting devs to "fix" rezzors because some nincompoop tells everybody that players can kill a boss over and over, and let the rezzor keep rezzing him ... for tons of experience. The proposed solution: "fix" rezzors!" Eliminate them from the game or allow them to rez once or eliminate experience after the first defeat. This is all absurd!
If some farmer wants to spend 2 hours killing the same boss over and over again, it will not affect you or me. But "fix" rezzors and destroy your ability to use them the way they were meant to be used is ridiculous.
We are shooting at vermin with elephant guns ... and all we are accomplishing is blowing giant holes in our own MA homes.
While I know that many of you will use this thread (if you use it at all) to tell me that I'm wrong.
But I would much prefer it if you used this thread to cite example after example of what has been lost to the everyday non-farming player because of "fixes" that were supposed to address the problem of farming.
Or am I off base here ... and my theory all hogwash? Please let me know, one way or the other.