New "Market Myths" Guide?
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-05-29 10:45 in The Market and Inventions
Myth: Alts are a tremendous amount of fun to play!
Fact: Alts are good only for their market slots. Get them to 15 slots and then put them to work behind the counter. 
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Myth: Alts are a tremendous amount of fun to play!
Fact: Alts are good only for their market slots. Get them to 15 slots and then put them to work behind the counter.
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Why not do both?
I play my alts about once a month or so, before i log i put in heaps of bids and resell when i come back
all of my toons are self sufficient this way and most have 10 million inf well before reaching level 20. Thats without starting with a "seed" fund of more than 2 large inspirations from the tutorial
Crime of Fashion Level 50 Rad/Rad Corrupter
My Toons
My Rad/Rad Corrupters Guide
Mindscape - Reworking
I think I can understand people who when it comes to finance^W the market run this subroutine, but do not intend to wield a stick myself.
Miladys_Knight wrote:[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm perhaps I could write a guide that leaves out flipping.
I could call it the "A Morally Superior guide to profitting at an Altruistic Wentworths."
Anyone think that would fly?
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Yes. Be careful with phrasing. People who already dislike the market might not read a guide with that exact title because they'll think the whole guide's a parody at their expense.
Methods:<ul type="square">[*]The guide could make a successful case for vendoring vendor trash, because it frees up others' market slots to place the bids and sales they want to place. [*]Nethergoat mentioned combining inspirations. It's stretching credibility, and the guide would mention it only to note the low inf per transaction slot.
[*]The method that I like best is crafting memorised commons. Yes, there's a hyprocritical element here, but you're still offering the common for less than using a recipe - while taking a commission for yourself.
There's still the little problem of the salvage inf... 
[/list]Misquoting Uberguy:[ QUOTE ]
paying attention to the market's trends in any meaningful way is so alien and undesirable for a lot of people (or at least a few vocal people)
[/ QUOTE ]Salvage turns over fast; the window on the price history is even more useless than usual. The only way to determine the range of a salvage's price is to ... flip it. *twitch*
Meben, 38 Kat/SR NPK Stalker (Defiant)
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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.
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The people who are anti-farming are even worse. These people (from both 'anti' groups [market and farming]) will simply here the word market or farm and automaticly stop listening and proclaim how either have ruined the game.
For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible.
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Yep, same for people anti-pvp (note not like me not interested in PvP but really anti it) and a lot of other parts of the game they view as wrong with it.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Speaking of Nethergoat, I think he was an early market hater. Well, some pro-market guy around here was and I think it was him.
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i was never a hater, thank goodness.
My big early mistake was defending the Black Market vs Wentworth's on the basis that the smaller supply pool and lower overall amount of inf available would result in lower prices. "yeah it's smaller, but players will realize that and price accordingly", or some similar nonsense.
Thankfully, it didn't take me long to wise up.
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Well fooey. I wonder who it was now.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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There's a considerable amount of emotional investment involved in people's antimarket stances.
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The people who are anti-farming are even worse. These people (from both 'anti' groups [market and farming]) will simply here the word market or farm and automaticly stop listening and proclaim how either have ruined the game.
For those who believe, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is possible.
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Yep, same for people anti-pvp (note not like me not interested in PvP but really anti it) and a lot of other parts of the game they view as wrong with it.
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I like PvP but I think the anti-pvp people have a point. I think the reason LOTRO is such a fun, balanced game is that they have a policy to NEVER make class balance changes because of pvp. Pvp balance changes can really [censored] up the game for pve folks and I really think that's inappropriate in a game that doesn't cater specifically to pvp.
Off topic, but I'm drunk and thought I'd chime in on it. Now to go flip some salvage that I bought for 1k each and sell it for 50k each. MWAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!
I'd suggest not touching this with a barge pole, and certainly not presenting it in the format suggested. The market has very few true facts and a lot of opinions and personal experiences presented as facts.
Personal experience:
I made a kat/SR on Virtue just post I9, and then made another on Victory with a very similar build in I13 and the second build cost me maybe 4x as much, maybe more.
The reasons for this are quite complex, and the sort of snappy Q/A format really doesn't deal with it. Also it's certainly easier to obtain say 200M now than it was in I9 without playing the market or farming (just selling drops), but is it easier than obtaining 50M was then ?
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Myth : Everyone can play the market and, starting from nothing, make hundreds of millions in a few weeks. New marketeers don't hurt old marketeers.
Fact : Only a tiny part of the playerbase plays the market, which is why there's room for new marketeers without a noticeable difference in market income for old marketeers. If absolutely everyone would start playing the market, profit margins would shrink. The smartest, patient folks might still be able to make a profit, but not everyone. The market doesn't create influence, it destroys it. As it is, it's only redistributing the influence among the playerbase.
Myth : Marketeers want to help people. Marketeers know how to help people.
Fact : Using a condescending tone is never a good way to get people to listen to you.
Myth : There is one right way to consider the market, everything else is wrong.
Fact : In any economic system, there's different point of views, none of them being exactly right and none of them being exactly wrong. Economics use maths, but it's first and foremost a social science, and no social science has only one correct answer.
Myth : Popularity implies veracity. If most marketeers agree on a point of view about the market, it's the correct point of view. If most marketeers agree on a claim being a fact, it's a fact.
Fact : The validity of a claim is irrelevant of its popularity.
Myth: If you say stuff against the market or the marketeers, you're a stupid idiot who doesn't understand the market, doesn't understand math and speaks from emotion.
Fact : I make money from the market, and I like doing it. I like the market. I happen to disagree with the point of view of some other folks who also like the market. That's about it.
Y'know, there has been a request that I not call other posters idiots.
Nihilii's _arguments_, however, are incoherent, poorly formed and poorly thought out.
Fallacy 1: No True Marketeer [tm] would disagree with the "mainstream" positions. So despite playing the market, making millions and enjoying it, Nihilii is not a true marketeer. (related to "But when I do it, it's ironic!")
Fallacy 2: "Do you walk to school or bring your lunch?" A person can be pretentious, annoying, and right. Very sad, that.
Fallacy 3: Everyone Says It, So It Is False And Also I Am A Rebel And Morally Superior. Far easier than defending an actual position.
Fallacy 4: "You just believe that because it's convenient." Many people around here run experiments, take measurements, and generally _prove_ their various points. Standing there going "You just believe that because you're greedy" is a wonderful way of insulting people without, actually, disproving their points. Even if I'm a terrible terrible person, greedy and patronizing, that doesn't prove me wrong. But, hey, unearned moral superiority feels good, doesn't it?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Hi, my name is Comicsluvr and I used to be a market hater.
A review of some of my earlier posts on the Market will reveal that I was one of the more verbal, and less informed, about the Market. I was officially converted sometime early last year.
I still think that the Market has problems but then many of them stem from mechanics, not ebil marketeers. Players are also their own worst enemies in most cases.
I would be interested in a poll of how many players have overspent on something just from hastily adding a zero. How many have done it more than once?
I still think the Market has issues but it is not the den of thieves that I used to think and many others still believe.
I think this FAQ is a good idea. I'll be glad to add stuff as I think of it.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Fact : Using a condescending tone is never a good way to get people to listen to you.
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Irony at its finest.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Fallacy 4: "You just believe that because it's convenient." Many people around here run experiments, take measurements, and generally _prove_ their various points. Standing there going "You just believe that because you're greedy" is a wonderful way of insulting people without, actually, disproving their points. Even if I'm a terrible terrible person, greedy and patronizing, that doesn't prove me wrong. But, hey, unearned moral superiority feels good, doesn't it?
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It is certainly easier for them that way. And the anti-farmers and the anti-pvpers and the...
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
Myth : Everyone can play the market and, starting from nothing, make hundreds of millions in a few weeks. New marketeers don't hurt old marketeers.
Fact : Only a tiny part of the playerbase plays the market, which is why there's room for new marketeers without a noticeable difference in market income for old marketeers. If absolutely everyone would start playing the market, profit margins would shrink. The smartest, patient folks might still be able to make a profit, but not everyone. The market doesn't create influence, it destroys it. As it is, it's only redistributing the influence among the playerbase.
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There's plenty of room in the market for everyone who cares to use it.
However many converts we make, it won't be enough to dry up every niche.
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Myth : Marketeers want to help people. Marketeers know how to help people.
Fact : Using a condescending tone is never a good way to get people to listen to you.
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Nobody who's ever come into this forum with an open mind has been abused by the regulars, and we've made a lot of players a ton of inf over the years.
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Myth : There is one right way to consider the market, everything else is wrong.
Fact : In any economic system, there's different point of views, none of them being exactly right and none of them being exactly wrong. Economics use maths, but it's first and foremost a social science, and no social science has only one correct answer.
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The only people around here I've seen trying to impose a 'one true way' approach to the market are the anti-capitalist zealots.
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Myth : Popularity implies veracity. If most marketeers agree on a point of view about the market, it's the correct point of view. If most marketeers agree on a claim being a fact, it's a fact.
Fact : The validity of a claim is irrelevant of its popularity.
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At last, you make a little sense.
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Myth: If you say stuff against the market or the marketeers, you're a stupid idiot who doesn't understand the market, doesn't understand math and speaks from emotion.
Fact : I make money from the market, and I like doing it. I like the market. I happen to disagree with the point of view of some other folks who also like the market. That's about it.
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The vast majority of anti-market zealots are ignorant yayhoos that bring nothing to the table but simmering anger heated by their burning sense of entitlement.
If you're an exception to the rule, GRATZ!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Fact : Only a tiny part of the playerbase plays the market, which is why there's room for new marketeers without a noticeable difference in market income for old marketeers. If absolutely everyone would start playing the market, profit margins would shrink. The smartest, patient folks might still be able to make a profit, but not everyone.
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Anecdote: No one, to my knowledge, has ever claimed that everyone can play the market for gain. What has been claimed, almost daily, from a month or so after the market appeared, is that anyone can do so.
Fact: There is a difference in the meaning of the words "anyone" and "everyone". "Anyone" means "any one person". "Everyone" means "all people in the game".
Fact: Level 50 characters can afford to pay 10s of thousands of inf for a piece of common salvage because they earn over 10 thousand inf every time they defeat a +2 Lieutanant solo.
Observation: It appears vanishingly likely after all this time that everyone will ever try to "play" the market for gain. Instead, it appears immensely likely that many players who use the market will do so loosely, without careful consideration on how to save money. This is reinforced by Fact 2 above - Level 50s can sneeze out more inf than a level 10 character would see in a week of play (if they stayed level 20 for a week of play).
Conclusion: The assertion that "anyone" can choose to make money on the market is valid given the continuously reinforced notion that "everyone" is never likely to use the market in such a savings/earnings-conscious way that precludes it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
To the OP,
Before you invest your time and energies into what seems to be a significant project, I'd say find out more about your target audience. So far in this thread, I've seen players described as either marketeers, casual players or market-haters.
That seems rather simplified. I believe that each CoX player uses the market system to some varying degree. There must be very few market-haters who have not been inside a Wentworths to sell a valuable recipe or salvage.
So, maybe you can approach this project from the perspective of identifying different levels of players' involvement in the market and focus your advice on how each player can successfully increase his/her involvement in the market.
For Example:
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* You are a Level 1 Market Player if your goal is to keep things simple and use the market only to sell off the recipes and salvage you receive in order to generate more money.
At this level of market play, you can do a number of things to keep things simple and generate more money...
** You are a Level 2 Market Player if you use the market to buy items to improve your character and sell off the recipes and salvage you receive in order to generate more money which can be used to buy more items.
At this level of market play, you can do a number of things to cheaply buy items to improve your character and sell other items for a better return...
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If novices to the market can identify which category they are, then your advice to them can be much more specific making it much more useful, I believe, than a generic bunch of FAQs.
Global: @FuzzyOne
Find me playing these servers: Champion, Justice, Freedom, Virtue and Pinnacle
I can recall that when MA was announced, someone here made a post about planning a "how to use the market" infotainment-arc. I still think that'd be a great way to teach some people about it.
But don't look at me, I'm not half the guru most of you are, I have only one MA slot left and at least three ideas about what to put in it already!
Signed,
Ex-market-hater Clave Dark 5 (now I just see it as a necessary evil 
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I still think that the Market has problems but then many of them stem from mechanics, not ebil marketeers.
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Let's not forget the wonderful interface and the Amiga running the thing...
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
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I still think that the Market has problems but then many of them stem from mechanics, not ebil marketeers.
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Let's not forget the wonderful interface and the Amiga running the thing...
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When did they upgrade from the C-64?
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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When did they upgrade from the C-64?
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It's an Amiga running the back-end. The C-64 is still serving up the interface.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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To the OP,
Before you invest your time and energies into what seems to be a significant project, I'd say find out more about your target audience. So far in this thread, I've seen players described as either marketeers, casual players or market-haters.
That seems rather simplified. I believe that each CoX player uses the market system to some varying degree. There must be very few market-haters who have not been inside a Wentworths to sell a valuable recipe or salvage.
So, maybe you can approach this project from the perspective of identifying different levels of players' involvement in the market and focus your advice on how each player can successfully increase his/her involvement in the market.
For Example:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
* You are a Level 1 Market Player if your goal is to keep things simple and use the market only to sell off the recipes and salvage you receive in order to generate more money.
At this level of market play, you can do a number of things to keep things simple and generate more money...
** You are a Level 2 Market Player if you use the market to buy items to improve your character and sell off the recipes and salvage you receive in order to generate more money which can be used to buy more items.
At this level of market play, you can do a number of things to cheaply buy items to improve your character and sell other items for a better return...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If novices to the market can identify which category they are, then your advice to them can be much more specific making it much more useful, I believe, than a generic bunch of FAQs.
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I sense a flow chart coming from this sort of idea. Maybe not a bad one, either.
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I sense a flow chart coming from this sort of idea. Maybe not a bad one, either.
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It would take some effort, but I agree. Not a bad idea.
---
I've been told that sometimes my lucidity is frightening.
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Your logic is no match for concentrated stupid. - Organica
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Current MAs:
Stop the catgirl rampage! #66361
Look, you have to understand where the market haters are coming from. I myself am a reluctant marketer. Essentially I only use the market because it's the only realistic way for you to get complete IO sets (sure you can get them with Merits, but that would take a very long time given the IO recipe Merit costs). If there were another, I'd happily use it instead. Right now, there's not. Making rare salvage available with Tickets was a big step in the right direction.
So why do people dislike it? Is it because they simply lack the knowledge/insight required to use it to its potential? No, that is one of the least reasons.
1. Most people are here to be the superhero or the supervillain. They're not here to be capitalists (even though there's nothing wrong with being a capitalist). Having to deal with the market ends the fun and starts the work. Sure, you can ignore it. If you don't mind being stuck with SOs. Faced with having to stop punching face and start plugging numbers into a boring interface, many players end up feeling frustrated with the very paradigm of the market. Remember that scene in The Incredibles when the main character is working for the insurance company, hears someone who needs help outside, but can do nothing about it because he's stuck at work? That is how a lot of people view the market.
2. A better system could have been implemented. Just look at how you can buy rare salvage with Tickets. That's how the whole system should work instead of a market. You're rewarded for playing the game instead of playing the market. In the current system, you're much more handsomely rewarded for playing the market. That's broken. A drop-trading system would have worked better, too (eg, any rare IO could be traded at a store for any other rare IO).
3. The market encourages distrust of other players. This is where that lack of knowledge comes in. Most players don't read the forums. They always suspect they're being taken advantage of when dealing with the market (and sometimes they're right). The game should never make people feel like this, it's bad for the community.
4. The market brought spam. IOs are partially responsible, but I'm sure playing the market makes a great way to generate Inf for gold sellers to farm up and sell. The market was ready-made for gold sellers, really.
I'm sure there are other reasons other people who question the market have too, but you can see here it isn't simple lack of knowledge that does it (though that can be a contributing factor, but only one among many).
Here's hoping you can buy specific recipes with Tickets and the Merit costs of specific recipes gets reduced from current, ridiculous levels. And here's hoping the market can be bypassed entirely with future modifications to the game along those lines. Until then I'll still use it...begrudgingly.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
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Look, you have to understand where the market haters are coming from. I myself am a reluctant marketer. Essentially I only use the market because it's the only realistic way for you to get complete IO sets (sure you can get them with Merits, but that would take a very long time given the IO recipe Merit costs). If there were another, I'd happily use it instead. Right now, there's not. Making rare salvage available with Tickets was a big step in the right direction.
So why do people dislike it? Is it because they simply lack the knowledge/insight required to use it to its potential? No, that is one of the least reasons.
1. Most people are here to be the superhero or the supervillain. They're not here to be capitalists (even though there's nothing wrong with being a capitalist). Having to deal with the market ends the fun and starts the work. Sure, you can ignore it. If you don't mind being stuck with SOs. Faced with having to stop punching face and start plugging numbers into a boring interface, many players end up feeling frustrated with the very paradigm of the market. Remember that scene in The Incredibles when the main character is working for the insurance company, hears someone who needs help outside, but can do nothing about it because he's stuck at work? That is how a lot of people view the market.
2. A better system could have been implemented. Just look at how you can buy rare salvage with Tickets. That's how the whole system should work instead of a market. You're rewarded for playing the game instead of playing the market. In the current system, you're much more handsomely rewarded for playing the market. That's broken. A drop-trading system would have worked better, too (eg, any rare IO could be traded at a store for any other rare IO).
3. The market encourages distrust of other players. This is where that lack of knowledge comes in. Most players don't read the forums. They always suspect they're being taken advantage of when dealing with the market (and sometimes they're right). The game should never make people feel like this, it's bad for the community.
4. The market brought spam. IOs are partially responsible, but I'm sure playing the market makes a great way to generate Inf for gold sellers to farm up and sell. The market was ready-made for gold sellers, really.
I'm sure there are other reasons other people who question the market have too, but you can see here it isn't simple lack of knowledge that does it (though that can be a contributing factor, but only one among many).
Here's hoping you can buy specific recipes with Tickets and the Merit costs of specific recipes gets reduced from current, ridiculous levels. And here's hoping the market can be bypassed entirely with future modifications to the game along those lines. Until then I'll still use it...begrudgingly.
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QFT
Currently the marketeer needs the casual player and many of the casual don't want the marketeer.
This was very difficult for me to understand as I viewed the market as just another mini game to play even if it wasnt a very good one.
The problem is the rabidly pro market people see any attempt to allow casuals to get away from the market as an attack on their play style. The bigger problem is they are right
Kinda sad when you put it that way. Rabid anti-market is about as useful a position as raid anti-farming: it takes a position against an EFFECT of game mechanics, while leaving the underlying cause untouched. You can't blame the market of the marketeers for the way things are: they're doing the best they can. The trouble is, the deck is loaded in favor of marketeering when you really set out to earn INF and IO out a character. It's faster and easier by a large margin than any other playstyle.
The reward rate of "casual" play is the main problem. It's far too low, especially for the things that are most in demand. LotG + recharge, miracle and Numina uniques, the really GOOD and especially useful IO's, were until recently gated to TF/SF only. Even now, they drop too rarely from bosses to bring supply anywhere near demand. When players feel they have to grind for long periods of time to get teh best stuff in the game, then posts of "this is too expensive" are going to happen. The devs are in a no-win situation that they created themselves. Allowing everyone a better chance at those recipes by increasing the drop rate significantly, will ultimately reduce the margins and adversely affect the enjoyment (and profits) of those that DO play the market and play it well. They can't make one group happy without making another group unhappy. I can't expect, though, that the devs will continue to make the marketeers happy while making the casual players feel like they have no choice but to do unfun, repetitive tasks to earn the rewards they want. (You know... "grind")
They can't leave the market as-is without making the game unfun for a large portion of the playerbase. They can't change it without upsetting the people who have come to enjoy the market minigame for its own sake.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
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Hmmm perhaps I could write a guide that leaves out flipping.
I could call it the "A Morally Superior guide to profitting at an Altruistic Wentworths."
Anyone think that would fly?
I wouldn't do a red side guide since the red side folks are SUPPOSED to be evil and take advantage where they can.
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That's the other peeve of mine around here. "We're supposed to be super heroes! We shouldn't be profiting at anyone else's expense!" *rolls eyes* Give me a [censored] break. RP is fun and all, but it shouldn't inform game design decisions...and fortunately it didn't.