New "Market Myths" Guide?
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-05-29 10:45 in The Market and Inventions
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1. Most people are here to be the superhero or the supervillain.
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Then it's their tough luck they chose to play super-being in an MMO format, because economies are an integral component of the genre.
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Having to deal with the market ends the fun and starts the work.
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Nonsense.
You can become quite rich doing nothing but selling drops. No special knowlege or skill required, simply hit the market instead of the vendor.
Voila, wealth!
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Faced with having to stop punching face and start plugging numbers into a boring interface, many players end up feeling frustrated with the very paradigm of the market.
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Oh well.
It's an MMO first and foremost.
If you aren't willing to submit to the structure of the game type, that isn't the game's fault.
The problem with CoH isn't that it has a market, it's that it took them 9 issues to ship one.
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2. A better system could have been implemented. Just look at how you can buy rare salvage with Tickets. That's how the whole system should work instead of a market.
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That fails at the main gameplay goal of the market- minigame timesink.
That they added merits and tickets at all to appease the crybabies and entitlement cases is a travesty, but an understandable one given their refusal to redress factional market discrepancies in the only logical way.
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You're rewarded for playing the game instead of playing the market.
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Bad news Sunshine, the market is the game.
So is PvP.
So is MA.
So is base building.
etc etc etc.
Take your litmus tests for determining 'real' gamers somewhere else, that bunk doesn't fly around here.
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The market encourages distrust of other players.
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Now you're just freewheeling off road through the desert.
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They always suspect they're being taken advantage of when dealing with the market (and sometimes they're right).
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How so, when THEY determine the price they pay?
Or are they somehow griefing themselves, in your bizarre alternate world?
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LOL from a man who describes his marketing activity as periodically checking his traps.
Wow, I can't even begin to tell you where you are off track, Goat.
You need to switch to decaf.
Global: @FuzzyOne
Find me playing these servers: Champion, Justice, Freedom, Virtue and Pinnacle
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Look, you have to understand where the market haters are coming from. I myself am a reluctant marketer. Essentially I only use the market because it's the only realistic way for you to get complete IO sets (sure you can get them with Merits, but that would take a very long time given the IO recipe Merit costs). If there were another, I'd happily use it instead. Right now, there's not. Making rare salvage available with Tickets was a big step in the right direction.
So why do people dislike it? Is it because they simply lack the knowledge/insight required to use it to its potential? No, that is one of the least reasons.
1. Most people are here to be the superhero or the supervillain. They're not here to be capitalists (even though there's nothing wrong with being a capitalist). Having to deal with the market ends the fun and starts the work. Sure, you can ignore it. If you don't mind being stuck with SOs. Faced with having to stop punching face and start plugging numbers into a boring interface, many players end up feeling frustrated with the very paradigm of the market. Remember that scene in The Incredibles when the main character is working for the insurance company, hears someone who needs help outside, but can do nothing about it because he's stuck at work? That is how a lot of people view the market.
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Sure and Mr. Incredible is only one example. I'm sure Batman has investments and bankers and lawyers and board members to keep his mega bucks flowing. I'd give even odds that he's the comic book version of the ebil marketeer flipper while in his secret identity. Reed Richards of the Fantastic 4. "World's dumbest smart guy." He's the crafter. He invents and then sells his inventions for modest profits all to just keep his SG base going (the Baxter Building.) Even though I'm not big into RP I can easily justify market time as it being my Secret Identity. Most comic books don't spend much time on the secret identity and that too fits my play style. 5 minutes (usually less) at the start of my play session and 5 minutes at the end. My characters spend less time on end of session clean up than ever before the market. We used to have to go to the correct origin store to get maximum returns. Sometimes you had to travel all over the zone. Now it's one stop shopping.
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2. A better system could have been implemented. Just look at how you can buy rare salvage with Tickets. That's how the whole system should work instead of a market. You're rewarded for playing the game instead of playing the market. In the current system, you're much more handsomely rewarded for playing the market. That's broken. A drop-trading system would have worked better, too (eg, any rare IO could be traded at a store for any other rare IO).
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Hind sight is 20/20. They could also have whipped a much worse system on us or made it a broken store as you suggest. No market means no cross server trades, no trades with folks from other countries that aren't on at the same time you are, no trades with folks that aren't in the same trade channel or zone you are in. In short the market and inventions go hand in hand. With out one, the other becomes either far too much work or completely pointless. As far as trading any rare for any other rare..... I'd trade a Lady Grey end/rech for a LotG +7.5 in a heart beat any day of the week. That idea won't work because all the rare IOs have different values established not by marketeers but by the devs and their assigned drop rates.
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3. The market encourages distrust of other players. This is where that lack of knowledge comes in. Most players don't read the forums. They always suspect they're being taken advantage of when dealing with the market (and sometimes they're right). The game should never make people feel like this, it's bad for the community.
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???? I trust a nice clean interface. I only get taken advantage of if I go in without knowledge of what I'm doing and a good idea of the value of the things I'm shopping for. That's no different than any shopping in the real world. Buyer beware. Pay attention or suffer the consequences. If I'm making a major purchase I do the research or turn to a tool (a library or other center of learning) or a person (like I did when I bought my house. I found a realtor I was comfortable with.) In game is no different. This forum offers both information in the form of guides and players that have the knowledge and freely diseminate it.
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4. The market brought spam. IOs are partially responsible, but I'm sure playing the market makes a great way to generate Inf for gold sellers to farm up and sell. The market was ready-made for gold sellers, really.
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Inventions brought spam not the market. Spam would be far worse if there was no market. The gold sellers would be offering transfer services as well, same as in other MMOs that have loot and no market.
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I'm sure there are other reasons other people who question the market have too, but you can see here it isn't simple lack of knowledge that does it (though that can be a contributing factor, but only one among many).
Here's hoping you can buy specific recipes with Tickets and the Merit costs of specific recipes gets reduced from current, ridiculous levels. And here's hoping the market can be bypassed entirely with future modifications to the game along those lines. Until then I'll still use it...begrudgingly.
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In the end it does boil down to a lack of knowledge. If you haven't got the knowledge you haven't got the confidence and you'll never take the risks required to get the big scores.
While I hope they do reduce costs on the specific buy with merits items (or at the very least let us specify the exact level of the recipe on a random roll) I would not count on the devs creating a system that invalidates an almost entire issue of content (the market).
Lakanna said:
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The devs are in a no-win situation that they created themselves. Allowing everyone a better chance at those recipes by increasing the drop rate significantly, will ultimately reduce the margins and adversely affect the enjoyment (and profits) of those that DO play the market and play it well. They can't make one group happy without making another group unhappy. I can't expect, though, that the devs will continue to make the marketeers happy while making the casual players feel like they have no choice but to do unfun, repetitive tasks to earn the rewards they want. (You know... "grind")
They can't leave the market as-is without making the game unfun for a large portion of the playerbase. They can't change it without upsetting the people who have come to enjoy the market minigame for its own sake.
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All the devs have to do to keep the marketeers happy is to continue to have a market. Real marketeers adapt to market changes. Real marketeers find the profit no matter where the cash flow goes and will be happy doing so. It's more varied, more of a challenge, and more fun. Each issue changes something about the market those changes are where the marketeers make the profit. By seeing a trend before the majority of the people are even aware that it's there. Marketeers welcome change.
The Ferengi rules of Aquisition sum it up:
Rule 34 War is good for business.
rule 35 Peace is good for business.
Which is to say that making the best profits rely on change in the status quo.
In addition to the Rules, Ferengi recognize five Stages of Acquisition:
1) Infatuation "I want it."
2) Justification "I must have it!"
3) Appropriation "IT'S MINE AT LAST!"
4) Obsession "Precious!"
5) Resale "Make me an offer."
Real marketeers are the only ones that recognize and actively utilize stage 5. Everyone else stops at 4.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Look, you have to understand where the market haters are coming from. I myself am a reluctant marketer. Essentially I only use the market because it's the only realistic way for you to get complete IO sets (sure you can get them with Merits, but that would take a very long time given the IO recipe Merit costs). If there were another, I'd happily use it instead. Right now, there's not. Making rare salvage available with Tickets was a big step in the right direction.
So why do people dislike it? Is it because they simply lack the knowledge/insight required to use it to its potential? No, that is one of the least reasons.
1. Most people are here to be the superhero or the supervillain. They're not here to be capitalists (even though there's nothing wrong with being a capitalist). Having to deal with the market ends the fun and starts the work. Sure, you can ignore it. If you don't mind being stuck with SOs. Faced with having to stop punching face and start plugging numbers into a boring interface, many players end up feeling frustrated with the very paradigm of the market. Remember that scene in The Incredibles when the main character is working for the insurance company, hears someone who needs help outside, but can do nothing about it because he's stuck at work? That is how a lot of people view the market.
2. A better system could have been implemented. Just look at how you can buy rare salvage with Tickets. That's how the whole system should work instead of a market. You're rewarded for playing the game instead of playing the market. In the current system, you're much more handsomely rewarded for playing the market. That's broken. A drop-trading system would have worked better, too (eg, any rare IO could be traded at a store for any other rare IO).
3. The market encourages distrust of other players. This is where that lack of knowledge comes in. Most players don't read the forums. They always suspect they're being taken advantage of when dealing with the market (and sometimes they're right). The game should never make people feel like this, it's bad for the community.
4. The market brought spam. IOs are partially responsible, but I'm sure playing the market makes a great way to generate Inf for gold sellers to farm up and sell. The market was ready-made for gold sellers, really.
I'm sure there are other reasons other people who question the market have too, but you can see here it isn't simple lack of knowledge that does it (though that can be a contributing factor, but only one among many).
Here's hoping you can buy specific recipes with Tickets and the Merit costs of specific recipes gets reduced from current, ridiculous levels. And here's hoping the market can be bypassed entirely with future modifications to the game along those lines. Until then I'll still use it...begrudgingly.
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Wasn't really gonna respond about this topic but when I saw this I had to say something because I agree with this right here.
While I am a casual player I guess, I use the market, but really I hate it. I'm not the guy that stands in Wentworth's for hours at a time, no thats not me. I see those outrageous prices and think to myself "wow, so the only way to afford this is if I stand here all day and mess with this market, or farm. Dam cant I have fun AND afford to be "uber-super-mega-ultra" like the farmers and Market Fanatics?"
This is the feeling I believe of most people who arent really into the market that much. I just wanna spend my time playing and when I come to the market I dont want to feel so hopeless as to never being able to have those super IO's. Or having to do something "unfun" to get them, only dream about them lol. 
Milady's
All the lecturing and browbeating in the world doesn't change the fact that many don't like the market and don't think it meshes well with the rest of the game.
That is no myth.
The devs in recent issues seem to have seen fit to accomodate that. Instead of trying to argue these people into liking the market, its probably best to try and think of ways that the market can be made better for everyone.
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Wow, I can't even begin to tell you where you are off track, Goat.
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Every statement I made is entirely factual.
Except maybe the one about veering off into the desert.
But please, try to debunk them. It's been a slow week.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I'm not the guy that stands in Wentworth's for hours at a time, no thats not me.
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Huh, neither am I.
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I see those outrageous prices and think to myself "wow, so the only way to afford this is if I stand here all day and mess with this market, or farm.
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This inaccurate, defeatist attitude is your undoing.
Enjoy life without teh shiny!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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They can't leave the market as-is without making the game unfun for a large portion of the playerbase. They can't change it without upsetting the people who have come to enjoy the market minigame for its own sake.
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I'm not that worried about the market mini-game. It's OK, but I like the beating up bad guys part of the game a whole lot more. What would upset me is spending billions to make my characters great, and then having the devs crash ALL recipes the way they did the costume recipes.
That and easy just isn't what I'm looking for in an MMO. I don't want an MMO where everyone gets an A+! Yay! We're all WINNERS! I want a traditional curve. I want average players to get a C. I want terrible players to flunk out. And I want players willing to put forth the effort in all regards gaming skill, build knowledge, grinding for ages or understanding the market to be rewarded with an A. Otherwise, I feel like my experience is being cheapened, and I'd be looking for another MMO that offers me those things. IOs, scarcity and the market are likely what's kept me in this game.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
... I'm the opposite. I don't slot super IO's and I could afford them, because I'm like "I get 25% better than SO's from slotting the cheap stuff, I should spend fifty times as much to get 50% better by slotting the expensive stuff? " [Actual numbers are not right. I'm starting to think that I may have to learn how the high end builds work before I can talk intelligently on the topic.]
I think there is a missing thought process in there. If SO's are an '87 Taurus, and the billion-inf build is some sort of Ferrari, people don't realize that there's a nice option that is a lot closer in cost to the Taurus and a lot closer in performance to the Lamborghini.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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I'm not the guy that stands in Wentworth's for hours at a time, no thats not me.
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Huh, neither am I.
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I see those outrageous prices and think to myself "wow, so the only way to afford this is if I stand here all day and mess with this market, or farm.
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This inaccurate, defeatist attitude is your undoing.
Enjoy life without teh shiny!
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Gonna say this in the nicest way possible...I aint got time to sway YOUR opinion and argue wit you all day about a video game bruh. Defeatist attitude? Never that.
However I didnt say everything in there was expensive. But its disheartening to know I gotta run around all day back and forth and hope and pray the prices have changed. I'd rather be playing the game since my time is limited.
I never said YOU stand around all day did I Goat? Again, my perspective obviously isnt YOUR perspective. So there was no need for you to reply really, keep on gettin your "shiny" and all that. I gets mine too, maybe a little slower than others but I gets mine. The post was talkin about people that feel the same way I do. I feel like sometimes folks like us dont really get heard so I'm tryin to represent us a lil bit thats all. I dont think the market is evil or nothin.
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... I'm the opposite. I don't slot super IO's and I could afford them, because I'm like "I get 25% better than SO's from slotting the cheap stuff, I should spend fifty times as much to get 50% better by slotting the expensive stuff? " [Actual numbers are not right. I'm starting to think that I may have to learn how the high end builds work before I can talk intelligently on the topic.]
I think there is a missing thought process in there. If SO's are an '87 Taurus, and the billion-inf build is some sort of Ferrari, people don't realize that there's a nice option that is a lot closer in cost to the Taurus and a lot closer in performance to the Lamborghini.
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I'm not really performance oriented myself- I've made a couple of UberBuilds (not to be confused with UberGuy) just to see how the system works, see how much they actually cost, see what the performance difference is....curiosity, basically.
But the majority of my characters roll with generic IOs & frankenslotting.
Being efficient with IOs takes attention to detail, and I'm not really interested in that part of the game.
I can say that if you're satisfied with "good" sets like Positron's Blast and the like, they're entirely affordable by level 50 for anyone who pays the slightest bit of attention while selling their drops.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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... I'm the opposite. I don't slot super IO's and I could afford them, because I'm like "I get 25% better than SO's from slotting the cheap stuff, I should spend fifty times as much to get 50% better by slotting the expensive stuff? " [Actual numbers are not right. I'm starting to think that I may have to learn how the high end builds work before I can talk intelligently on the topic.]
I think there is a missing thought process in there. If SO's are an '87 Taurus, and the billion-inf build is some sort of Ferrari, people don't realize that there's a nice option that is a lot closer in cost to the Taurus and a lot closer in performance to the Lamborghini.
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I think 25% better than SO is a decent estimate
the 50 times as much is about 30% better
the 500 times as much is maybe 33% better
the 5000 times as much maybe hits 35% better
there is a CLIFF in the cost/performance curve once you get past uncommon sets/frankenslotting.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Gonna say this in the nicest way possible...I aint got time to sway YOUR opinion and argue wit you all day about a video game bruh. Defeatist attitude? Never that.
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To paraphrase,
"I look at the expensive stuff and despair"
is pretty defeatist.
You can get whatever you want in this game without extreme effort.
No "hours" at Wentworth's necessary, no farming necessary.
A few minutes per log in + knowledge freely available on this forum = wealth.
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But its disheartening to know I gotta run around all day back and forth and hope and pray the prices have changed. I'd rather be playing the game since my time is limited.
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the most efficient way I've found to earn inf and get deals on the market is put in bids and walk away.
I rarely spend more than a few minutes per login 'at' the market.
It is uniquely suited to earn inf for me while I'm playing 'the real game'.
This is the secret so many market-phobes will not or cannot grasp.
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I never said YOU stand around all day did I Goat?
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I know a lot of people who are drowning in game-wealth.
None of them spend "hours" at the market.
You are working with a stereotype of a marketeer that doesn't conform to reality.
I mean, I'm sure some people do park themselves at the market and micromanage their various schemes, and I'm sure it's profitable.
But that isn't how most of us do it.
A few minutes a day to make bids and list sales, that's all it takes.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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However I didnt say everything in there was expensive. But its disheartening to know I gotta run around all day back and forth and hope and pray the prices have changed. I'd rather be playing the game since my time is limited.
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making the obvious question here:
You do realise that you can place bids and walk away ? Several characters of mine only come on to move day jobs, and they have ultra-patient bids on things they want, of which about half fill in that 3 weeks. craft em and place the next set.
There is no running back and forth, let the interface and pre-placed bids work for you.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I'm not the guy that stands in Wentworth's for hours at a time, no thats not me.
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Huh, neither am I.
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I see those outrageous prices and think to myself "wow, so the only way to afford this is if I stand here all day and mess with this market, or farm.
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This inaccurate, defeatist attitude is your undoing.
Enjoy life without teh shiny!
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Gonna say this in the nicest way possible...I aint got time to sway YOUR opinion and argue wit you all day about a video game bruh. Defeatist attitude? Never that.
However I didnt say everything in there was expensive. But its disheartening to know I gotta run around all day back and forth and hope and pray the prices have changed. I'd rather be playing the game since my time is limited.
I never said YOU stand around all day did I Goat? Again, my perspective obviously isnt YOUR perspective. So there was no need for you to reply really, keep on gettin your "shiny" and all that. I gets mine too, maybe a little slower than others but I gets mine. The post was talkin about people that feel the same way I do. I feel like sometimes folks like us dont really get heard so I'm tryin to represent us a lil bit thats all. I dont think the market is evil or nothin.
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Or you could play AE normally, level up and gain inf normally and use those tickets to generate the random shinies and sell them.
holy crap, I barely did anything at all(outside of normal missions, do you even have time for that?) and stood at WW/BM for 5-10 min.....IF I wasnt paying attention and dozed off at my desk.
I realize SELLING is the opposite of BUYING but maybe if you market haters tried SELLING SOMETHING INSTEAD OF WHINING YOU CANT AFFORD ANYTHING, you just might have inf to BUY something.
Sometimes its so easy its hard. USE YOUR BRAIN FOR ONCE.
ANTI-whatever, you are dismissed.
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I still think that the Market has problems but then many of them stem from mechanics, not ebil marketeers.
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Let's not forget the wonderful interface and the Amiga running the thing...
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No way, it's a Beowulf cluster of Vic-20s.
I'm a farming, marketing, PLing, speed TF running PvP'r, hate me now.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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... I'm the opposite. I don't slot super IO's and I could afford them, because I'm like "I get 25% better than SO's from slotting the cheap stuff, I should spend fifty times as much to get 50% better by slotting the expensive stuff? " [Actual numbers are not right. I'm starting to think that I may have to learn how the high end builds work before I can talk intelligently on the topic.]
I think there is a missing thought process in there. If SO's are an '87 Taurus, and the billion-inf build is some sort of Ferrari, people don't realize that there's a nice option that is a lot closer in cost to the Taurus and a lot closer in performance to the Lamborghini.
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I think 25% better than SO is a decent estimate
the 50 times as much is about 30% better
the 500 times as much is maybe 33% better
the 5000 times as much maybe hits 35% better
there is a CLIFF in the cost/performance curve once you get past uncommon sets/frankenslotting.
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In regards to learning how high end builds work, he might be referring to something I showed him recently. He was interested in comparative DPS at different price points, and I made and compared three Katana/Super Reflexes Scrapper builds for him. The top tier build put out 244 DPS. The cheapo set and frankenslotted one put out 140 DPS, and the SO build put out 130 DPS.
I wouldn't conclude much from those numbers, though. Two of the restrictions on the cheapo set build were no global recharge (so I didn't include Hasten or Quickness either) and no global damage bonuses. So I didn't actually make a build, I just slotted attacks. I also stayed away from the Achilles' Heel proc, which would have been a nice boost. I could probably make a cheapish (50 million?) build that would split the difference between the top tier and cheapo builds.
Not that DPS for one particular scrapper combination is indicative of IO price/performance in general, but assuming I could do what I said with the cheapish set build, it would look kind of like this:
SOs (5 million?) 130
Cheapo frankenslotted (10 million?) 140 (2x cost, 8% better)
Cheapish set build (50 million?) 192? (10x cost, 48% better)
Cost no object (2 billion?) 244 (400x cost, 88% better)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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4. The market brought spam. IOs are partially responsible, but I'm sure playing the market makes a great way to generate Inf for gold sellers to farm up and sell. The market was ready-made for gold sellers, really.
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I just want to debunk this one. I had gotten inf seller spam prior to the market/invention systems being added into the game. I want to say around Issue 4 or so. They were around back then despite there being no real need for it. Sure the Invention and Market systems helped to increase the amount of spam, but they were not the cause of it.
And as a little FYI... As soon as an MMO goes live there will be gold spammers. Case in point: WAR (Warhammer Online) wasn't even out a week before the gold spammers started. There wasn't even a real economy created yet (everyone leveling up and nothing to spend money on outside of starting a guild) yet there they were spamming away. You can't get away from it, you just have to use the Dev-created tools to ignore/report and go about your business.
But yeah.. Gold/Inf spammers are not an ill brought about the Market and/or the Marketeers.
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I'm not the guy that stands in Wentworth's for hours at a time, no thats not me.
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Huh, neither am I.
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I see those outrageous prices and think to myself "wow, so the only way to afford this is if I stand here all day and mess with this market, or farm.
[/ QUOTE ]
This inaccurate, defeatist attitude is your undoing.
Enjoy life without teh shiny!
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Gonna say this in the nicest way possible...I aint got time to sway YOUR opinion and argue wit you all day about a video game bruh. Defeatist attitude? Never that.
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Don't bother trying to sway any opinions around here - esp. when it comes to the NGoat. You won't likely find a more stubborn Pro-Market "Pundit". (Ok, NG might not be THE most stubborn, but NG is definitely in Top 5 or so.)
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However I didn't say everything in there was expensive. But its disheartening to know I gotta run around all day back and forth and hope and pray the prices have changed. I'd rather be playing the game since my time is limited.
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Careful when taking this tack, or somebody will pop-up with One or Both of the following cliche/cop-out comebacks:
1. "You don't have to use the market you can play just fine with SO's.... *wah-wan-wan-wah* =(all the "Peanuts" adults voice's sound).
The main counter-point here is that IO's are a much larger part of the game at this point than most will admit, particularly when they're arguing this as an "option" to the market. That being, "Just don't use it at all", (and somehow be content with that), "after all no one is forcing you to use it..."
2. "Would you rather go back to the pre-market days when normally you couldn't afford SO's at levels X, Y, & Z. therefore I <3 the Market & so should you!"
This is simply verbal redirection, dismissing whatever point you might be trying to make, and often they turn the thread toward repeating some of their standard rhetoric...
i.e. "Would you like unpleasant option A or B?"
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I never said YOU stand around all day did I Goat? Again, my perspective obviously isn't YOUR perspective. So there was no need for you to reply really, keep on gettin your "shiny" and all that. I gets mine too, maybe a little slower than others but I gets mine. [u]The post was talkin about people that feel the same way I do. I feel like sometimes folks like us don't really get heard so I'm tryin to represent us a lil bit thats all.[u] I don't think the market is evil or nothin.
[/ QUOTE ]
Caution: If you haven't "seen there light", and embraced their viewpoints...
You'll likely be accused of being a "market-hater", OR "unwilling to learn" (which auto-magically "enlightens" you as far as their concerned) - or you haven't "learned yet" in their mind...
OR, they start talking about Tinfoil-Hats... Because, obviously if you don't share their view(s) = then you must be one (or more) of the following: crazy, paranoid, a conspiracy theorist, or some other flavor of wacko!
Btw, it is possible to learn to use the market, AND still disagree with certain people and the way the use/play the market.
Just don't drink the Kool-Aid!
But it still makes me wonder, when people brag about all their "Ebil" (read: greedy/self-centered) marketeering, and then a few posts or threads later - talk about how they really don't spend that much Inf on their characters?!
Quite often this is followed by claims of various Philanthropy... "I hook-up my whole SG with everything" and/or Charity with "screenshots to prove it"...
Do you really believe they somehow DON'T have at least a handful of completely 'pimped-out' Characters?
Or maybe they just "swim in piles of (unused) Inf", and meanwhile they play with characters that use nearly all SO's or Common IO's, or cheapo "franken-slotable" Set IO's? seriously... 
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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[ QUOTE ]
Allowing everyone a better chance at those recipes by increasing the drop rate significantly, will ultimately reduce the margins and adversely affect the enjoyment (and profits) of those that DO play the market and play it well. They can't make one group happy without making another group unhappy. I can't expect, though, that the devs will continue to make the marketeers happy while making the casual players feel like they have no choice but to do unfun, repetitive tasks to earn the rewards they want. (You know... "grind")
They can't leave the market as-is without making the game unfun for a large portion of the playerbase. They can't change it without upsetting the people who have come to enjoy the market minigame for its own sake.
[/ QUOTE ]
While this is true, I think it is far less the most important effect.
PvE-focused games like this - particularly subscription ones - beg for a treadmill approach. The devs want to keep you on the treadmill for a while. Unlike a real treadmill, the ones in a game do get you somewhere in a sense. In this game those destinations are places like level 50, IO'd builds, all the badges, or what have you. But the key is that the devs want you to run on the treadmill for a while to get to each endpoint, because you pay them based on how long you run. Not how far, just how long.
Different people will complain about treadmills running at different angles of incline steepness - some don't mind it running really steep, and some people hate the treadmill even if it runs completely level. Very few people will agree how fast and long they should have to run at what angle.
IOs are a goal for people, and the devs need people to run on the treadmill to reach them. Handing them out in stores, even in exchage, completely defeats that. Making people pay inf for them is a proxy for the time it takes you to get them randomly, because inf earned is a proxy for time spent. Buying stuff on the market is actually more efficient in general than time spent earning it directly, because very few things on the market actually have prices really indicative of how much money a level 50 would earn on average before they got one of any given recipie as a drop. Compare market prices with Merit rates for completely outfitting a character, and consider which a level 50 is likely to do sooner.
The devs created rarity and scarcity and perceived value for a reason. They wanted these things to be both desirable and slow to obtain. If you want a sense of the scale of that, just look at Merit earning rates and Recipie merit costs.
The devs of course always reserve the right to change the slope at which the treadmill tilts as you run on it. They did it in the past for XP. They might do it at some future time for inventions. It's a lot harder to predict what they do with inventions though so long as they stick to their guns about inventions being optional.
To get them to make changes here is going to take an appeal to something other than LotGs and purples. As nice as those are, they are supposed to be the slowest things in the game to achieve, because they are rare and powerful. I don't think the devs are going to feel a lot of pity for cries of woe for the casual player's purpled Warshade.
Edit: Reading that, I realize it can be taken pretty negatively, as some sort of indictment against the devs for keeping us on a treadmill at all. Just in case, that's not how I mean it. I'm very goal-oriented, and having the goal of IOs has kept me interested in this game easily a year past where I might have given up on it (and I'm still going strong). If it was so easy as some of the suggestions here seem to be seeking, I would likely already be bored again. I need it to take effort and time, and even if you (whoever reads this) are not like that, you have to understand that a lot of MMO players in general are, and the devs know it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Fair enough. After a second look, I can see that you make some sufficiently backed statements until you said this:
[ QUOTE ]
That they added merits and tickets at all to appease the crybabies and entitlement cases is a travesty...
[/ QUOTE ]
If this is factual, then what proof is there of it?
Global: @FuzzyOne
Find me playing these servers: Champion, Justice, Freedom, Virtue and Pinnacle
[ QUOTE ]
But it still makes me wonder, when people brag about all their "Ebil" (read: greedy/self-centered) marketeering, and then a few posts or threads later - talk about how they really don't spend that much Inf on their characters?!
Quite often this is followed by claims of various Philanthropy... "I hook-up my whole SG with everything" and/or Charity with "screenshots to prove it"...
Do you really believe they somehow DON'T have at least a handful of completely 'pimped-out' Characters?
Or maybe they just "swim in piles of (unused) Inf", and meanwhile they play with characters that use nearly all SO's or Common IO's, or cheapo "franken-slotable" Set IO's? seriously...
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I can only speak for myself. I do have two pimped out characters, and will probably pimp out more eventually. But yes, I'm swimming in piles of unused influence, and leveling up using mostly SOs, some common IOs, frankenslotting, or rarely a few cheap sets. I don't think the performance difference of sets is worth the trouble while leveling up. I see sets as something to do with a 50 if I want to keep playing and keep getting better after the leveling stops.
But if you want to believe I'm lying about it to mess with people instead of offering what I consider to be sound advice on how not to waste influence, that's cool too. It's no skin off of my back.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Honestly, I wasn't referring to any one poster in particular.
And, I wasn't really implying that people were "lying" per se, just that they talk about making TONS of Inf, then turn around and tell people they don't need Inf .
And basically claim that that people can have just as much fun without any "shinies" whatsoever.
Like, using all SO's or whatever - which I tend to call B.S. on for two reasons:
1. They DO have some "pimped out toons they can play if they want...
2. Saying that playing without "shinies" is just as much fun as playing with them - is oxymoronic.
IMO, that would be basically be like saying that "shinies" aren't "shiny".
Now... I'm not saying people can't enjoy the game without them, just that some people aren't 'practicing what they preach' (so to speak).
You don't fall into this category, you admit having toons you spent your Inf earnings on, AND that you have toons that you're frugal with - I understand that...
You're basically saying you have a your toons slotted in a variety of ways - which is all good (I do the same thing).
What ticks me off is the people that Do have toons with a bunch of shinys, (so they have the option of playing those toons)...
Who then proceed to tell other people they shouldn't be unhappy or disgruntled that they don't have the same option.
And usually they immediately accuse these people of not 'lrning2mrkt', or that they want everything for nothing, handed to them on a platter, "I win" button, etc.
It's really easy to look down on the have-nots when your a have-got & (IMO) that happens all too often around here.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
|
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I wasn't referring to any one poster in particular.
And, I wasn't really implying that people were "lying" per se, just that they talk about making TONS of Inf, then turn around and tell people they don't need Inf .
And basically claim that that people can have just as much fun without any "shinies" whatsoever.
Like, using all SO's or whatever - which I tend to call B.S. on for two reasons:
1. They DO have some "pimped out toons they can play if they want...
2. Saying that playing without "shinies" is just as much fun as playing with them - is oxymoronic.
IMO, that would be basically be like saying that "shinies" aren't "shiny".
Now... I'm not saying people can't enjoy the game without them, just that some people aren't 'practicing what they preach' (so to speak).
You don't fall into this category, you admit having toons you spent your Inf earnings on, AND that you have toons that you're frugal with - I understand that...
You're basically saying you have a your toons slotted in a variety of ways - which is all good (I do the same thing).
What ticks me off is the people that Do have toons with a bunch of shinys, (so they have the option of playing those toons)...
Who then proceed to tell other people they shouldn't be unhappy or disgruntled that they don't have the same option.
And usually they immediately accuse these people of not 'lrning2mrkt', or that they want everything for nothing, handed to them on a platter, "I win" button, etc.
It's really easy to look down on the have-nots when your a have-got & (IMO) that happens all too often around here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its not looking down on you. Its being completely unable to comprehend your viewpoint.
See. I don't farm. I only marketeer when the mood strikes me, and only on a couple characters. I have characters swimming in IO sets.
I really dont understand HOW a person can make it to 30, let alone 50 without being insanely rich just from dumping their junk on the market rather than vendoring it, along with being smart enough to buy recipes and salvage rather than completed IOs
noit to mention, people look down on market users like its THEIR fault prices are so high, when usually we try to keep to the baseline average. Its not our fault that more often than not, during high demand periods, people will just throw scads of money at the market rather than patiently bid low. One of my friends listed a piece of gaussian for 1100 influence today. It sold for 15 million
Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!
Arc ID 58363!
[ QUOTE ]
1. Most people are here to be the superhero or the supervillain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then it's their tough luck they chose to play super-being in an MMO format, because economies are an integral component of the genre.
[ QUOTE ]
Having to deal with the market ends the fun and starts the work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nonsense.
You can become quite rich doing nothing but selling drops. No special knowlege or skill required, simply hit the market instead of the vendor.
Voila, wealth!
[ QUOTE ]
Faced with having to stop punching face and start plugging numbers into a boring interface, many players end up feeling frustrated with the very paradigm of the market.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh well.
It's an MMO first and foremost.
If you aren't willing to submit to the structure of the game type, that isn't the game's fault.
The problem with CoH isn't that it has a market, it's that it took them 9 issues to ship one.
[ QUOTE ]
2. A better system could have been implemented. Just look at how you can buy rare salvage with Tickets. That's how the whole system should work instead of a market.
[/ QUOTE ]
That fails at the main gameplay goal of the market- minigame timesink.
That they added merits and tickets at all to appease the crybabies and entitlement cases is a travesty, but an understandable one given their refusal to redress factional market discrepancies in the only logical way.
[ QUOTE ]
You're rewarded for playing the game instead of playing the market.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bad news Sunshine, the market is the game.
So is PvP.
So is MA.
So is base building.
etc etc etc.
Take your litmus tests for determining 'real' gamers somewhere else, that bunk doesn't fly around here.
[ QUOTE ]
The market encourages distrust of other players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're just freewheeling off road through the desert.
[ QUOTE ]
They always suspect they're being taken advantage of when dealing with the market (and sometimes they're right).
[/ QUOTE ]
How so, when THEY determine the price they pay?
Or are they somehow griefing themselves, in your bizarre alternate world?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone