New "Market Myths" Guide?
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-05-29 10:45 in The Market and Inventions
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Not if everyone lists the item for a certain amount, and that is my fundamental problem with the Market. I can list what I WANT to pay till I'm blue in the face, but if no one sells it for that, I'll never get it, even if it is a reasonable amount.
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You don't get to define "reasonable", that's up to the playerbase as a whole.
If you leave a bid up for a good while and it still doesn't fill, you aren't valuing the item correctly and other people are.
I can bid 100k on a LotG recharge and never get it.
Because that isn't a reasonable bid, however hard I wish for it to be.
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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Odd, I sold one for 65M yesterday that I got as a drop but let's assume your statement is a fact. What prevents you from paying any amount between 30 and 100 million to buy one? Say 31M?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
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As a pioneer in the LotG flipping field, let me note there is absolutely nothing stopping you from bidding 31 million and beating out this hypothetical eebil price fixer.
And there's no such thing as an "artificial" price in this game- barring typos, buyers pay what an item is worth to them. If the item is scarce enough and useful enough, that price can be very high indeed.
But it isn't "artificial".
That isn't a meaningful word in this context.
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Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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Human nature is human nature, wherever you encounter it.
Not many people are going to sell something for five bucks when it's 'worth' fifty.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Not if everyone lists the item for a certain amount, and that is my fundamental problem with the Market. I can list what I WANT to pay till I'm blue in the face, but if no one sells it for that, I'll never get it, even if it is a reasonable amount.
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You don't get to define "reasonable", that's up to the playerbase as a whole.
If you leave a bid up for a good while and it still doesn't fill, you aren't valuing the item correctly and other people are.
I can bid 100k on a LotG recharge and never get it.
Because that isn't a reasonable bid, however hard I wish for it to be.
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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Odd, I sold one for 65M yesterday that I got as a drop but let's assume your statement is a fact. What prevents you from paying any amount between 30 and 100 million to buy one? Say 31M?
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As I said, example prices only, as in no reflection of in game prices.
What prevents me from paying 31? someone listing it for 31.
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Not if everyone lists the item for a certain amount, and that is my fundamental problem with the Market. I can list what I WANT to pay till I'm blue in the face, but if no one sells it for that, I'll never get it, even if it is a reasonable amount.
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You don't get to define "reasonable", that's up to the playerbase as a whole.
If you leave a bid up for a good while and it still doesn't fill, you aren't valuing the item correctly and other people are.
I can bid 100k on a LotG recharge and never get it.
Because that isn't a reasonable bid, however hard I wish for it to be.
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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You do realize, I hope, that the "items" that you are talking about in regards to greed are non-real as well and unlike the real world or most other MMOs aren't required to progress or live in the environment in question.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
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As a pioneer in the LotG flipping field, let me note there is absolutely nothing stopping you from bidding 31 million and beating out this hypothetical eebil price fixer.
And there's no such thing as an "artificial" price in this game- barring typos, buyers pay what an item is worth to them. If the item is scarce enough and useful enough, that price can be very high indeed.
But it isn't "artificial".
That isn't a meaningful word in this context.
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Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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Human nature is human nature, wherever you encounter it.
Not many people are going to sell something for five bucks when it's 'worth' fifty.
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Except that people seeing the last 5 sales at x amount are generally going to list at the same.
Artificially created? If EVERYONE was listing at 30 mil or whatever amount, and I buy every single one and re-list at 100mil, have I not just artificially increased the inf value of the item? Perhaps I'm using the wrong word, but the gist should be fairly clear.
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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That's just fallacious right there. If a flipper can get it for e.g. 30m, so can anyone else. You don't have to be a market-lover to see that!
Well I tried keep my thread on track. It's too bad this helpful forum has to devolve into petty squabbles on every [censored] thread.
I now understand why all the marketeers voluntarily take on the "ebil" mantle. The choice it to either relish in it or have it thrust upon you regardless by market-haters who confuse the people for the mechanic. If we have to be labeled ebil either way, why not be a dickhead to everyone who comes in here spouting ridiculous [censored]? Being offensive is much more fun than being defensive and it seems that's the only choice marketeers have.
Well [censored] all you luddites. If you're too [censored] stupid and lazy to make money on the market, you deserve to have a terrible play experience. And if you hate this game (and guess what, the market is PART of the game!!!) and yet continue to play, you deserve to be unhappy and bitter. You reap what you sow.
Anyhow, I'm done with this thread and probably the whole market forum for a while. I'm off to go make casual players miserable, steal from the poor, manipulate prices, force the devs to make the game less fun for everyone else, block reasonable changes to the game that would make it better, and club some baby seals. o/
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Not if everyone lists the item for a certain amount, and that is my fundamental problem with the Market. I can list what I WANT to pay till I'm blue in the face, but if no one sells it for that, I'll never get it, even if it is a reasonable amount.
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You don't get to define "reasonable", that's up to the playerbase as a whole.
If you leave a bid up for a good while and it still doesn't fill, you aren't valuing the item correctly and other people are.
I can bid 100k on a LotG recharge and never get it.
Because that isn't a reasonable bid, however hard I wish for it to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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Odd, I sold one for 65M yesterday that I got as a drop but let's assume your statement is a fact. What prevents you from paying any amount between 30 and 100 million to buy one? Say 31M?
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As I said, example prices only, as in no reflection of in game prices.
What prevents me from paying 31? someone listing it for 31.
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No one can buy it for 30 unless someone is listing it for 30 or less. If a flipper is buying it at 30 and relisting at 100 any one can buy it at 31-99.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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What prevents me from paying 31? someone listing it for 31.
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Then you bid 32.
Nobody's forcing you to buy at the top of the price point except your own impatience.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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That's just fallacious right there. If a flipper can get it for e.g. 30m, so can anyone else. You don't have to be a market-lover to see that!
Well I tried keep my thread on track. It's too bad this helpful forum has to devolve into petty squabbles on every [censored] thread.
I now understand why all the marketeers voluntarily take on the "ebil" mantle. The choice it to either relish in it or have it thrust upon you regardless by market-haters who confuse the people for the mechanic. If we have to be labeled ebil either way, why not be a dickhead to everyone who comes in here spouting ridiculous [censored]? Being offensive is much more fun than being defensive and it seems that's the only choice marketeers have.
Well [censored] all you luddites. If you're too [censored] stupid and lazy to make money on the market, you deserve to have a terrible play experience. And if you hate this game (and guess what, the market is PART of the game!!!) and yet continue to play, you deserve to be unhappy and bitter. You reap what you sow.
Anyhow, I'm done with this thread and probably the whole market forum for a while. I'm off to go make casual players miserable, steal from the poor, manipulate prices, force the devs to make the game less fun for everyone else, block reasonable changes to the game that would make it better, and club some baby seals. o/
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Dang, they took months to beat me down to mocking them but they got you there in a week.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Anyhow, I'm done with this thread and probably the whole market forum for a while. I'm off to go make casual players miserable, steal from the poor, manipulate prices, force the devs to make the game less fun for everyone else, block reasonable changes to the game that would make it better, and club some baby seals. o/
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Welcome to the club!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just fallacious right there. If a flipper can get it for e.g. 30m, so can anyone else. You don't have to be a market-lover to see that!
Well I tried keep my thread on track. It's too bad this helpful forum has to devolve into petty squabbles on every [censored] thread.
I now understand why all the marketeers voluntarily take on the "ebil" mantle. The choice it to either relish in it or have it thrust upon you regardless by market-haters who confuse the people for the mechanic. If we have to be labeled ebil either way, why not be a dickhead to everyone who comes in here spouting ridiculous [censored]? Being offensive is much more fun than being defensive and it seems that's the only choice marketeers have.
Well [censored] all you luddites. If you're too [censored] stupid and lazy to make money on the market, you deserve to have a terrible play experience. And if you hate this game (and guess what, the market is PART of the game!!!) and yet continue to play, you deserve to be unhappy and bitter. You reap what you sow.
Anyhow, I'm done with this thread and probably the whole market forum for a while. I'm off to go make casual players miserable, steal from the poor, manipulate prices, force the devs to make the game less fun for everyone else, block reasonable changes to the game that would make it better, and club some baby seals. o/
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Another fantastic post.
Have some cheesecake. It has the tears of casual players that can't purple their warshades in a week in it.
M'Teru couldn't get the job done. So she sent Mot to Astoria. Bad call.
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That's just fallacious right there. If a flipper can get it for e.g. 30m, so can anyone else. You don't have to be a market-lover to see that!
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But admitting it would mean admitting a large part of the reasons for hating 'ebil marketeers' are utter rubbish. Can't have that, must have best shinies for no effort all the time!
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Well I tried keep my thread on track. It's too bad this helpful forum has to devolve into petty squabbles on every [censored] thread.
I now understand why all the marketeers voluntarily take on the "ebil" mantle. The choice it to either relish in it or have it thrust upon you regardless by market-haters who confuse the people for the mechanic. If we have to be labeled ebil either way, why not be a dickhead to everyone who comes in here spouting ridiculous [censored]? Being offensive is much more fun than being defensive and it seems that's the only choice marketeers have.
Well [censored] all you luddites. If you're too [censored] stupid and lazy to make money on the market, you deserve to have a terrible play experience. And if you hate this game (and guess what, the market is PART of the game!!!) and yet continue to play, you deserve to be unhappy and bitter. You reap what you sow.
Anyhow, I'm done with this thread and probably the whole market forum for a while. I'm off to go make casual players miserable, steal from the poor, manipulate prices, force the devs to make the game less fun for everyone else, block reasonable changes to the game that would make it better, and club some baby seals. o/
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Yup in for a lamb in for a sheep. Why bother being a nice guy if you are going to be hated anyways? Screw it, may as well have fun with it instead.
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Now, I think we can have constructive arguments about how steep the treadmill should be and how long you have to run on it before you get that next shiny. There's certainly plenty of disagreement on that, and the devs have to make some choice, knowing that the choice won't be ideal for many or even most players' entertainment dollar.
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This absolutely.
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But if someone isn't entertained by running on a treadmill chasing the next cool thing, then perhaps MMOs aren't for them
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I'd say on that score it may not be a question of liking not liking treadmills. Its more a question of our game is like gym, that has weights, treadmills, stair machines and rowing machines. There are if I interpret it right people objecting to having to use the treadmill before they can use the weights.
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Not if everyone lists the item for a certain amount, and that is my fundamental problem with the Market. I can list what I WANT to pay till I'm blue in the face, but if no one sells it for that, I'll never get it, even if it is a reasonable amount.
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You don't get to define "reasonable", that's up to the playerbase as a whole.
If you leave a bid up for a good while and it still doesn't fill, you aren't valuing the item correctly and other people are.
I can bid 100k on a LotG recharge and never get it.
Because that isn't a reasonable bid, however hard I wish for it to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the person that flips the LotG (Example only for prices) buy buying them at 30mil, and re-listing them all for 100mil has artificially created that price knowing that eventually people will want them enough to pay that much.
Its the sad reality that greed affects MMORPS where the money isn't even real.
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That price exists independently of the flipper. If you were a selller and everyone was selling lotg for 1 inf and you wanted to sell yours for more, you could just list it at a very high price and let the inevitable shortages when there were 0 on the market make your sale.
This is not saying what the flipper does is beneficial to the community as a whole. He does raise the average selling price and takes a piece from the seller and the buyer doing it.
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That's just fallacious right there. If a flipper can get it for e.g. 30m, so can anyone else. You don't have to be a market-lover to see that!
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Actually, not quite.
You have enough cash, that you can leave bids across several toons at 30M for LotGs of every level from 25-50 if you wish. The more casual may not have the 7-800M required to do that, so the flipper has a much better chance of getting the IO as the casual only has 31M bids at a few levels.
The ability to put one (and only one at a time per toon) bid which says something to the effect of "I will bid 31M on a LotG 7.5 at any level between 25 and 50 " while only putting the one load of 31M up, would tremendously help the casual.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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But admitting it would mean admitting a large part of the reasons for hating 'ebil marketeers' are utter rubbish. Can't have that, must have best shinies for no effort all the time!
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This is true but only as far as it goes. I have an item that I have been flipping, buying it for around 4000 and relisting it for around 200k. Small time stuff but it makes seed money for my lowbies. The anybody who could buy it would have to either bid more and wait, or hope to get it at my price when all my orders were filled.
Good luck on that, I have a pretty good handle on how many come to market and I have no trouble keeping bids out there for them.
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You have enough cash, that you can leave bids across several toons at 30M for LotGs of every level from 25-50 if you wish. The more casual may not have the 7-800M required to do that, so the flipper has a much better chance of getting the IO as the casual only has 31M bids at a few levels.
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when I was flipping them I only bid on one level because that was all I could afford at first, and they kept coming up so I never felt the need to expand my reach.
You can maximize your chances with more inf, sure, but it isn't required. As with many things on the market, patience can be substituted for inf.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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But admitting it would mean admitting a large part of the reasons for hating 'ebil marketeers' are utter rubbish. Can't have that, must have best shinies for no effort all the time!
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This is true but only as far as it goes. I have an item that I have been flipping, buying it for around 4000 and relisting it for around 200k. Small time stuff but it makes seed money for my lowbies. The anybody who could buy it would have to either bid more and wait, or hope to get it at my price when all my orders were filled.
Good luck on that, I have a pretty good handle on how many come to market and I have no trouble keeping bids out there for them.
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So in this case is the general accepted worth 4000 or 200k? If most people list it for 4000 and it gets flipped for 200k, has the worth been artificially increased?
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But admitting it would mean admitting a large part of the reasons for hating 'ebil marketeers' are utter rubbish. Can't have that, must have best shinies for no effort all the time!
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This is true but only as far as it goes. I have an item that I have been flipping, buying it for around 4000 and relisting it for around 200k. Small time stuff but it makes seed money for my lowbies. The anybody who could buy it would have to either bid more and wait, or hope to get it at my price when all my orders were filled.
Good luck on that, I have a pretty good handle on how many come to market and I have no trouble keeping bids out there for them.
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So in this case is the general accepted worth 4000 or 200k? If most people list it for 4000 and it gets flipped for 200k, has the worth been artificially increased?
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Price remains what people pay for it.
In the case of his mythical flipping endevor, you can pay 4001 and wait a bit, or pay 200k if you absolutely must have it NAO.
Here's a Protip for dealing with people who flip low-ish supply stuff- you can nearly always find their 'buy price' in the last 5.
eg:
5231
45,000
45,000
5231
45,000
Look around next time you're on the market, you can find a lot of niches just by paying attention.
If you're EEEEBIL like me, you can make some fast inf piggy-backing on their hard work. In the example above, throw in a couple of ten-stack bids for 5232.
Gotta love free profit!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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But admitting it would mean admitting a large part of the reasons for hating 'ebil marketeers' are utter rubbish. Can't have that, must have best shinies for no effort all the time!
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This is true but only as far as it goes. I have an item that I have been flipping, buying it for around 4000 and relisting it for around 200k. Small time stuff but it makes seed money for my lowbies. The anybody who could buy it would have to either bid more and wait, or hope to get it at my price when all my orders were filled.
Good luck on that, I have a pretty good handle on how many come to market and I have no trouble keeping bids out there for them.
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So in this case is the general accepted worth 4000 or 200k? If most people list it for 4000 and it gets flipped for 200k, has the worth been artificially increased?
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Price remains what people pay for it.
In the case of his mythical flipping endevor, you can pay 4001 and wait a bit, or pay 200k if you absolutely must have it NAO.
Here's a Protip for dealing with people who flip low-ish supply stuff- you can nearly always find their 'buy price' in the last 5.
eg:
5231
45,000
45,000
5231
45,000
Look around next time you're on the market, you can find a lot of niches just by paying attention.
If you're EEEEBIL like me, you can make some fast inf piggy-backing on their hard work. In the example above, throw in a couple of ten-stack bids for 5232.
Gotta love free profit!
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And how does that really help things unless I resell at 5233, in which case the flipper just increases their bids by 3 inf?
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I'd say on that score it may not be a question of liking not liking treadmills. Its more a question of our game is like gym, that has weights, treadmills, stair machines and rowing machines. There are if I interpret it right people objecting to having to use the treadmill before they can use the weights.
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You're extending the analogy to the point it's not functional. The reference to treadmills is to make clear that it's a time-consuming activity. Inf on the market is a proxy for time. You can do other things and get the stuff randomly, with merits or with tickets, or you can earn inf and buy it on the market.
It's outrageous and dismissable to take exception to things taking time to achieve in an MMO. It's fair to argue about how much time, but only to a point.
The only reasonable objection to the market is that it's the faster way to get the goods. In having inf as a proxy for money, you can get stuff in less elapsed playtime through smart market play than you can earn goods other ways in general. There's nothing the devs can do about this unless they find a way to make other people care how they spend their money on the market - the best schemes get their money from people who are spending it willingly.
So that means that people find the market objectionable because it's the most efficient way to get shinies, and yet (for some people) it's the least liked. That's just tough cookies. I really don't have any pity for it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And how does that really help things unless I resell at 5233, in which case the flipper just increases their bids by 3 inf?
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People don't sit at the market watching their niche- or not enough to matter, anyway.
What will happen is you'll log in the next day and find you've won a bunch of stuff.
Re-list it low enough to undercut the flipper, half the going rate should do it.
Your next log-in will deliver a nice profit for your minimal efforts.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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There's nothing the devs can do about this unless they find a way to make other people care how they spend their money on the market - the best schemes get their money from people who are spending it willingly.
So that means that people find the market objectionable because it's the most efficient way to get shinies, and yet (for some people) it's the least liked. That's just tough cookies. I really don't have any pity for it.
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Actually, I've thought of a few ways the devs can address the inherent advantage of marketeering. First and easiest: put in a store that sells recipes. Uncommons 10 million per. Rares 20 million per. Ultra rare and PvP: 50 million per. The market would still be the cheapest way to get everything (after an adjustment period), but it would also effectively cap prices (without any way to work around it: the price caps would be set by the market as it adjusts.)
The market would still be volatile enough to make money. Prices would be significantly lower on the high-end stuff. Honestly, except for the ultra rares, and a very very few rares, the store would be more expensive than the market is right now.
The downside is, well, less time on the treadmill. But honestly, CoH has always been supportive of playing alts. As it stands, making enough to IO-out a character takes a lot of time, but it isn't necessarily time that people would get bored and leave if they didn't have IOs to work for. (An entirely different topic, I know, but the treadmill is NOT the only reason people stay, and CoH has always attracted players who play a lot of alts.) I would actually bet that a large number of people would be MORE willing to stay if they believed they could make a character, level them, and IO them out, all in a timeframe they considered reasonable. The next step is, for many, simply make another character, not leave the game.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
This is pretty complicated and difficult, but try to stay with me:
If they wanted a store, they wouldn't have made a market.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Not if everyone lists the item for a certain amount, and that is my fundamental problem with the Market. I can list what I WANT to pay till I'm blue in the face, but if no one sells it for that, I'll never get it, even if it is a reasonable amount.
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So who is right? You or those who pay at least as much if not more? When I list my IOs for sale at 1/4 the last 5 and it instantly sells for 4x what I listed or if there is no one bidding and I list common salvage for 12 and later I get 5k how did I make them pay more?
Why can I get items I see selling for 100k for 1k by waiting a few hours?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.