Is a zone alive if no one is in it?
By
Amrat,
Posted on: 2009-05-20 15:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
It emits the waves that can be detected as sound, but like I've been saying. Until those are interpreted by whatever being can sense it, then it isn't defined as sound.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you keep saying. However, you are simply factually wrong. Continuing to say it won't make it any more correct.
I think you're confusing the audible sense of the brain that we call "sound" with the scientific idea of "sound".
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
You are offbase. 
Like i said the particles exist, the definition we call light doesn't. I'm done arguing the point because you are going to keep arguing in a circle of statements you keep regurgitating....
[/ QUOTE ]
In physics, the term light sometimes refers to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light
You may want to actually study more about physics before you attempt to argue about it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
It emits the waves that can be detected as sound, but like I've been saying. Until those are interpreted by whatever being can sense it, then it isn't defined as sound.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you keep saying. However, you are simply factually wrong. Continuing to say it won't make it any more correct.
[/ QUOTE ]
No I am not. You are misunderstanding or choosing not to, whichever the case is... Until something is observed to be defined it simply exists as data waiting to be defined values through observation. Until you know how to measure a particle you don't know its there, you don't know what to call it, therefore you don't know it exists even if it does. End of argument. Everything requires observation to know, or implied knowledge through to observation of something else which can then lend to other theories and other predictable events our outcomes of a particular observation...
If an entity is made of energy, it cannot touch the ground it cannot feel the air it cannot observe these things we 'feel'. It is merely data to be measured and then defined. It is all subject to perception. There is no getting around it.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
Inokis I think your missed that forest while you were counting trees.
JiI: ... are they still arguing about Schroedinger?
E, Sally: YES.
JiI: ....
Arachnos Flier: Hey, guys, I got bored over at my place, no one arou... oo, nice scale patterns, babe! and no tan lines, VERY daring of you...
Sally: *turns red and ducks under the water*
E: ... oh good going, genius. Now the only 'babe' in our weight class is Lusca, and she's TOTALLY clingy, man.
Lusca: ... OOOH I heard my name mentioned! Hiiiiiii! Are we having a party?
JiI, E, AF, S: ... damnit.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
[ QUOTE ]
No I am not. You are misunderstanding or choosing not to, whichever the case is... Until something is observed to be defined it simply exists as data waiting to be defined values through observation. Until you know how to measure a particle you don't know its there, you don't know what to call it, therefore you don't know it exists even if it does. End of argument. Everything requires observation to know, or implied knowledge through to observation of something else which can then lend to other theories and other predictable events our outcomes of a particular observation...
.
If an entity is made of energy, it cannot touch the ground it cannot feel the air it cannot observe these things we 'feel'. It is merely data to be measured and then defined. It is all subject to perception. There is no getting around it.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem there is that we DO exist. We have already defined what light and sound are. Whether or not there is an observer at this point is irrelevant. Anything that fits the definitions we have crafted simply is what we have defined it to be.
Example:
A supernova explodes in deep space, far removed from Earth or any variety of observer. It will take millenia for that light to reach Earth. The light given off by said explosion is still light regardless of when or even if it is ever seen. Why? Because we are the ones talking about it, and we know what light is. If what is emitted fits our definition, than it is light. If a being from Klaxion Beta sees it, and says it is a beam of cheeseburger, than by golly, it is a beam of cheeseburger whether he can see it or not (assuming that Klaxions refer to light as cheeseburgers).
[ QUOTE ]
I was just running through Dark Astoria and I had an interesting thought ... does this zone exist if no one is in it? Does the game load it up only when at least one player is in it? And if not why not? I would think it would save a bit on server work ...
Anyone know?
Peace,
Amrat
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I don't think it would be "loaded" and just sitting there waiting to be used. That would be a waste of space. Zone events can occur there even if it is not loaded (I would assume, obviously I don't know for sure) because I would guess that the deciding factor of when or where a zone event takes place is nothing more than numbers in a database... numbers waiting to be called up when the zone is loaded. I could be totally wrong.
OK, in all seriousness... I believe they ARE loaded.
Why? Because unlike an instance mission (which only has to scale for eight characters max AND can be 'kickstarted' on the instance server when the mission is accepted) the zones would take too bloody long to load for the first person entering them. Everything IN the zone has to be instanced, which would mean the server has to set aside the resources, run the AI code, et cetera. I'm fairly sure that all of that takes a bit of time to get going from null. Theoretically you could start it all while the client is loading... but the client has to be taking cues from the server, not the other way around, or someone could theoretically hack things by injecting their own code (say, to disable the fog in DA).
An instance that is in idle state probably doesn't take that much away from resources (there's not much 'happening') once everything is staged. But the staging itself would need to either A) already be taken care of or B) happen rather quickly.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
It emits the waves that can be detected as sound, but like I've been saying. Until those are interpreted by whatever being can sense it, then it isn't defined as sound.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you keep saying. However, you are simply factually wrong. Continuing to say it won't make it any more correct.
[/ QUOTE ]
No I am not. You are misunderstanding or choosing not to, whichever the case is... Until something is observed to be defined it simply exists as data waiting to be defined values through observation. Until you know how to measure a particle you don't know its there, you don't know what to call it, therefore you don't know it exists even if it does.
[/ QUOTE ]
But once I do know it exists, it doesn't disappear just because I'm not looking at it.
And observation is NOT the same thing as perception. We can observe things without ever directly perceiving them. That doesn't mean they don't exist. That is why there is a spectrum of light we are incapable of seeing, that is why there are inaudible sounds. They don't stop being light and sound just because we cannot perceive them directly. And we can still observe them indirectly.
[ QUOTE ]
If an entity is made of energy, it cannot touch the ground it cannot feel the air it cannot observe these things we 'feel'.
[/ QUOTE ]
You make alot of suppositions about the observational abilities of a hypothetical energy being that I do not think are a given.
[ QUOTE ]
It is merely data to be measured and then defined. It is all subject to perception. There is no getting around it.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, nothing is subject to perception. In fact, perception is faulty and easily tricked. That is why almost no scientific observation relies solely on human perceptions to collect data.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
Inokis I think your missed that forest while you were counting trees.
[/ QUOTE ]
This.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
OK, in all seriousness... I believe they ARE loaded.
Why? Because unlike an instance mission (which only has to scale for eight characters max AND can be 'kickstarted' on the instance server when the mission is accepted) the zones would take too bloody long to load for the first person entering them. Everything IN the zone has to be instanced, which would mean the server has to set aside the resources, run the AI code, et cetera. I'm fairly sure that all of that takes a bit of time to get going from null. Theoretically you could start it all while the client is loading... but the client has to be taking cues from the server, not the other way around, or someone could theoretically hack things by injecting their own code (say, to disable the fog in DA).
An instance that is in idle state probably doesn't take that much away from resources (there's not much 'happening') once everything is staged. But the staging itself would need to either A) already be taken care of or B) happen rather quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good points. Shows exactly what I know about how this game works.
I'll repeat my question: do you reject the dictionary's definition of sound as "transmitted vibrations in an elastic solid, or a liquid or gas"?
QR;
This is a basic, first-year philosophy argument.
"If I'm in a room, and there is a desk in the room, and I can see it and touch it and taste it (ew) then clearly the desk exists, right? Well, what if I leave the room and there is no one else in the room, does the desk continue to exist or does it disappear or otherwise enter another state of either existence or outright non-existance."
In terms of the actual question, yes it continues to exist if no one is in the zone, it would have to reside in memory somewhere on the server.
If what you're asking is the more esoteric question, like the one above, then the reality is that you can't ever know the answer. Inokis might be on the right track from a raw physics explanation, but the reality is that there's no way he can really, truly know that because the fact that it's existence is being recorded might well be enough for it to exist. As long as it's being observed it will exist... the question is, does it continue to exist when it's not being observed?
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
[ QUOTE ]
JiI: ... are they still arguing about Schroedinger?
E, Sally: YES.
JiI: ....
Arachnos Flier: Hey, guys, I got bored over at my place, no one arou... oo, nice scale patterns, babe! and no tan lines, VERY daring of you...
Sally: *turns red and ducks under the water*
E: ... oh good going, genius. Now the only 'babe' in our weight class is Lusca, and she's TOTALLY clingy, man.
Lusca: ... OOOH I heard my name mentioned! Hiiiiiii! Are we having a party?
JiI, E, AF, S: ... damnit.
[/ QUOTE ]
My favorite post in this whole thread lol 
Physics e-peen contest aside .... I had not thought about the spawns of GM's and the like that pop up on timers. But those messages we see when one spawns "The Kraken has been seen in Perez Park" ... those could just be background notifications alerting us of the roll over of the GM's timer.
At this point IF we enter the zone it is during a time the GM should be spawned as the zone loads up.
As was stated before we the playerbase have no idea the fine details of this unless a Dev/programmer feels like chiming in. I just think it must be a waste of resources to keep all the battles and mobs spawned in a zone like The FBZ or the Storm Palace.
Interesting notion though eh? 
Peace,
Amrat
Grey Ghost Music
[ QUOTE ]
how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer this one....
"If a man says something in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?"
"The one thing that can stop a full team of MasterMinds dead in its tracks... a doorway!" --Frogfather
[ QUOTE ]
OK, in all seriousness... I believe they ARE loaded.
Why? Because unlike an instance mission (which only has to scale for eight characters max AND can be 'kickstarted' on the instance server when the mission is accepted) the zones would take too bloody long to load for the first person entering them. Everything IN the zone has to be instanced, which would mean the server has to set aside the resources, run the AI code, et cetera. I'm fairly sure that all of that takes a bit of time to get going from null. Theoretically you could start it all while the client is loading... but the client has to be taking cues from the server, not the other way around, or someone could theoretically hack things by injecting their own code (say, to disable the fog in DA).
An instance that is in idle state probably doesn't take that much away from resources (there's not much 'happening') once everything is staged. But the staging itself would need to either A) already be taken care of or B) happen rather quickly.
[/ QUOTE ]
During a zone invasion all of the critters in a zone are removed and replaced by the invading critters. When the invasion ends, all of the zone critters are put back on the map, all of this happening in real time with players in the zone.
owwww...making brain hurties.
QR
New subject:
If an electron oscillates left in 1.36 moles of oxygen gas and no one is around to observe it, does it still have a quantum wave function? 
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
[ QUOTE ]
No, I don't think it would be "loaded" and just sitting there waiting to be used. That would be a waste of space. Zone events can occur there even if it is not loaded (I would assume, obviously I don't know for sure) because I would guess that the deciding factor of when or where a zone event takes place is nothing more than numbers in a database... numbers waiting to be called up when the zone is loaded. I could be totally wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're dealing with two different cost factors here. One is the resource cost associated with keeping zone data in memory; the other one is the cost to build up and tear down zone data when players enter and leave the zone, respectively.
How that works out in any given case is anybody's guess and largely depends on the data involved. However, some educated guesses can be made:
(1) The zone layout information (position and extend of buildings and other objects, position of contacts, position of doors) must at any and all times exist, at least on disk, since it's created by humans, not a computer. This is separate from each instance of the zone (all of which can share the layout information).
Now, the zone layout information could be left on disk if the zone is not used; alternatively, the zone could be loaded into memory to minimize the cost of retrieving the data from disk (which is potentially a costly operation). As a third alternative, it could be kept in the memory of a central server and copied over the network. My best guess is that the information is kept in memory, simply because the build/tear-down cost is relatively high.
(2) Then there's the critters inside the zone. A lot will depend on how they are represented. If, for example, they are stored as objects inside an R-Tree or similar data structure, then the cost to build the data structure when somebody enters the zone is not any larger than populating it with new spawns when a player moves into a new area (I believe we already know that critters are despawned in idle areas of a zone). On the other hand, an empty R-Tree consumes pretty much no memory, and it may be simpler to have it initialized all the time. More importantly, there's really not much of a difference between "loaded" and "not loaded" in this case, and the question makes only limited sense.
On the other hand, if critters are stored in a large two- or three-dimensional grid structure, then it may make sense to allocate the grid beforehand, because initializing a large multi-dimensional array may be comparatively expensive relative to the memory savings (or was at least back when CoH was originally designed).
Zones could also have data associated with them that makes a complete tear down every time the zone is empty wasteful, though that is of course pure speculation (such as caching recently calculated critter pathing data). This cost could be mitigated, of course, by simply delaying it until a few minutes after the last player has left the zone.
(3) Most likely, zone instances such as "Atlas Park 2" or "Peregrine Island 5" do not exist until they are actually created. The same can be expected of mission instances.
(4) As a separate concern, being able to tear down zones completely when players have left facilitates loading them on a different machine next time (allowing for a modicum of load balancing).
Overall, there are a number of possible solutions, and since Cryptic back then probably chose the one that worked best for them, and their cost evaluation is not publicly known, we can only partly guess at how it's done.
[ QUOTE ]
QR
New subject:
If an electron oscillates left in 1.36 moles of oxygen gas and no one is around to observe it, does it still have a quantum wave function?
[/ QUOTE ]
No one knows... nor can we ever know.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
I prefer this one....
"If a man says something in a forest, and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course he is. She will just know and he should too.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh that's good.
For a moment there, I was starting to wonder if we were living in a subjective reality where nothing existed until we were around to witness it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually the entire shebang is here just so we can witness it.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
Somewhat related note, I've seen only the second version of zones live before. Population grows until a second version pops up, and then something causes people to clear out of the first one, making it despawn. And you end up with a ferry list like this:
Cap au Diable
Sharkshead Isle
Nerva Archipelago
St. Martial
Grandville 2
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
If I ramble on in Justice for All when nobody else is online, am I communicating?
[ QUOTE ]
Like i said the particles exist, the definition we call light doesn't. I'm done arguing the point because you are going to keep arguing in a circle of statements you keep regurgitating....
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say it doesn't exist... I said it doesn't exist as we define the perception of it... What causes it to be observed exists in its measurable quantities but if no entity is there to give it definition or a container to fit it into measurable definitions then it is merely just particles, and such existing without being observed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry you misunderstood the principles you're attempting to quote.
And also we don't need to perceive things to observe them. You're confounding the common use of observe with the scientific definition of observe. We can make observations indirectly as well as directly.
[ QUOTE ]
Until one 'sees' or 'hears' them in whatever capacity the life form has, then it isn't light
[/ QUOTE ]
That is factually incorrect. Photons traveling through space are light. Always. No matter if anyone sees them or not. Similarly, occilating waves traveling through an elastic medium are the very definition of sound. They can be observed to exist without anyone perceiving them and yes, they are still sound, regardless if YOU personally can understand that things exist outside of your brain or not.
[ QUOTE ]
it is a wavelength. It isn't sound, it is a wave.... etc so on and so forth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this is scientifically and factually incorrect.
Sound and Light exist independent of biological perceptions. We can prove this.
I suggest you brush up a bit on basic physics. You're very offbase.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are offbase.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile