Is a zone alive if no one is in it?
By
Amrat,
Posted on: 2009-05-20 15:08 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.
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You've ever been a wood/forest?
It's full of squirrels/badgers/bears... 
Somethings going to hear it.
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Schrodinger's Zone.
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...that would be totally awesome.
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
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No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.
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You've ever been a wood/forest?
It's full of squirrels/badgers/bears...
Somethings going to hear it.
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This hasn't always been so. There was a time before there were creatures who could interpret these signals. Since, we have proven that there are these signals ever present in every day life. Much of the 'static' you see as white noise on a tv set is leftover data from the origins of the universe. Scientists have even mapped the data and reproduced what the universe looked like at its earliest point that we can measure.
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That implies that at some point in the past, a chicken was hatched from the egg of a different animal, albeit likely related. But a housecat cannot spontaneously give birth to a tiger cub (naturally, that is!).
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Alright I think that explaining the nuances of how speciation occurs over time (and why housecats dont become tigers) via evolution is beyond the scope of this thread.
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Back to the original point. Someone upthread called it "Schroedinger's Zone" and that is a pretty good description. since we have to be in a zone to see if a zone exists then it is not possible to tell if a zone exists or doesn't exist if we're not in it.
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Not exactly, because someone out there, the server ops, DO know if the zone is there or not. We're just limited by our perspectives.
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That's one of the quantum physics quandaries.
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No, but it's a common misunderstanding of it.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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For that matter, are you sure this is real at all?
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Yes.
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Perhaps you are dreaming that you are who you think you are, and that you're sitting at a computer reading this thread. Perhaps you are something else when you wake up, but you won't remember that until you do.
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No.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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For that matter, are you sure this is real at all?
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Yes.
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Where's your proof? Let's see it!
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Perhaps you are dreaming that you are who you think you are, and that you're sitting at a computer reading this thread. Perhaps you are something else when you wake up, but you won't remember that until you do.
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No.
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An entirely subjective and self serving reply if there ever was one!
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Schrodinger's Zone.
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...that would be totally awesome.
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It's a very small, square zone. It has one catgirl in it.
...Or perhaps, one catgirl corpse.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Or, for another - Croatoa. We know the critters there fight each other when observed - but without someone there to spawn them, they won't fight each other because they don't "actually" exist. Larger events, such as Jack, Eochai, and Sally exist independant of observation, "living" on a timer.
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So what you're saying is that it isn't some ancient war, but rather US that causes the hatred and fighting in Croatoa? It's OUR fault?
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Schrodinger's Zone.
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...that would be totally awesome.
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It's a very small, square zone. It has one catgirl in it.
...Or perhaps, one catgirl corpse.
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I thought Schrodinger's zone could be anything you wanted it to be, until you went in it.
Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
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Schrodinger's Zone.
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...that would be totally awesome.
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It's a very small, square zone. It has one catgirl in it.
...Or perhaps, one catgirl corpse.
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Schrödinger's Catgirl
(I actually Googled for that, and it led me right back to this game! Funny...)
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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've ever been a wood/forest?
It's full of squirrels/badgers/bears...
Somethings going to hear it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This hasn't always been so. There was a time before there were creatures who could interpret these signals. Since, we have proven that there are these signals ever present in every day life. Much of the 'static' you see as white noise on a tv set is leftover data from the origins of the universe. Scientists have even mapped the data and reproduced what the universe looked like at its earliest point that we can measure.
[/ QUOTE ]American Heritage Dictionary: "1a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency. "
The waves themselves are "sound", whether there's anything to "hear" them or not.
I used to make the argument that it doesn't make a NOISE unless someone hears it, because noise is a subjective value. No observer, no judgment, no "noise". But the dictionary doesn't support that either: "1a. Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired. b. Sound or a sound of any kind".
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how very Zen.
I prefer the classics though: if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
[/ QUOTE ]
No. It makes the air vibrate a lot, yes, but sound is air vibrations converted into sensory information. So no listener, no sound.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've ever been a wood/forest?
It's full of squirrels/badgers/bears...
Somethings going to hear it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This hasn't always been so. There was a time before there were creatures who could interpret these signals. Since, we have proven that there are these signals ever present in every day life. Much of the 'static' you see as white noise on a tv set is leftover data from the origins of the universe. Scientists have even mapped the data and reproduced what the universe looked like at its earliest point that we can measure.
[/ QUOTE ]American Heritage Dictionary: "1a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency. "
The waves themselves are "sound", whether there's anything to "hear" them or not.
I used to make the argument that it doesn't make a NOISE unless someone hears it, because noise is a subjective value. No observer, no judgment, no "noise". But the dictionary doesn't support that either: "1a. Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired. b. Sound or a sound of any kind".
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If there is no sensory perception of it then it isn't there. The wave is there, the mechanic that could produce sound is there, but without the sensory to feel it, or to interpret it into what is sound then its just the emission from whatever event caused it.
A deaf person can't interpret sound, however they know sound exists. A blind person can't see light but they know the wavelengths exist. Perception doesn't preclude the existence but withot the ability to perceive it, it isn't there in how we describe as 'light' or as 'sound'.
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This thread is proof that we here on the CoX forums will argue about anything.
So anyway, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
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This thread is proof that we here on the CoX forums will argue about anything.
So anyway, what is the sound of one hand clapping?
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cl-
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
If a tree falls is an forest, does the guy watching the game remember every hearing it?
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If trees could scream would we be so cavalier in chopping them down? Maybe so, if they screamed all the time for no reason.
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American Heritage Dictionary: "1a. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing. b. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency. "
The waves themselves are "sound", whether there's anything to "hear" them or not.
I used to make the argument that it doesn't make a NOISE unless someone hears it, because noise is a subjective value. No observer, no judgment, no "noise". But the dictionary doesn't support that either: "1a. Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired. b. Sound or a sound of any kind".
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If there is no sensory perception of it then it isn't there. The wave is there, the mechanic that could produce sound is there, but without the sensory to feel it, or to interpret it into what is sound then its just the emission from whatever event caused it.
A deaf person can't interpret sound, however they know sound exists. A blind person can't see light but they know the wavelengths exist. Perception doesn't preclude the existence but withot the ability to perceive it, it isn't there in how we describe as 'light' or as 'sound'.
[/ QUOTE ]Far be it from me to prove Apple_Eater wrong:
Inokis, are you saying the American Heritage Dictionary is wrong?
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If there is no sensory perception of it then it isn't there.
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Scientifically speaking, this is false.
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The wave is there
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The kind of wave that is there is a sound wave. Sound IS the wave. The problem is coming from the confusion between confounding the scientific definition of sound, which is a wave generated by occilating pressure through a physical medium, and the common concept of sound which is "something I can hear".
Scientifically speaking sound has a physical reality which can both be directly and indirectly observed. It is not a perception.
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Perception doesn't preclude the existence but withot the ability to perceive it, it isn't there in how we describe as 'light' or as 'sound'.
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You're incorrect. Light and sound have physical realities. Our perceptions of them, which are by the way very faulty, do not dictate their existence. Again, we can scientifically prove their existence through indirect observation, i.e. bypassing our perceptions entirely to view their effects on another, unrelated medium (such as light on a photographic plate for instance).
Light and sound have an objective, measurable reality that in no wise requires perception, human or otherwise, to define.
in fact, we can say that the human perception of light and sound is very limited and barely is able to perceive either of them at all. This is why terms like "the visible spectrum of light" and "the audible frequency range of sound" exist: because we know that we can only perceive a very small part of those things and there is much more to the reality of both of them than we're capable of perceiving. No human eye is capable of perceiving ultraviolet light, but that does not mean it does not exist.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Jack in Irons: I will grind you into PASTE!!
Eochai: You shall BURN!! MUAHAHHAAHA!!!
JiI:.... wait wait, hold up, there's no one even HERE, man.
E: What, again? Damnit, I thought I had the inflection JUST right that time. "BURRRRN!!" Doesn't that sound just, ominous?
JiI: Yah whatever man, I'mma grab a beer, you want one?
E: .... what? sure. Crack me a keg while you're up.
Sally: Oh dear. I'm so shy in public. I hope no one comes along and SEES me...!!
JiI, Eochai: (look at each other) ... Put on a bathing suit already, you stupid reptile!!
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
When there are no players in a zone, all the NPCs are gathered at a meeting area where they sit around, eat snacks and gossip.
Once a player begins zoning in, they are all teleported to their normal spawn points.
If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?
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If there is no sensory perception of it then it isn't there.
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Scientifically speaking, this is false.
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The wave is there
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The kind of wave that is there is a sound wave. Sound IS the wave. The problem is coming from the confusion between confounding the scientific definition of sound, which is a wave generated by occilating pressure through a physical medium, and the common concept of sound which is "something I can hear".
Scientifically speaking sound has a physical reality which can both be directly and indirectly observed. It is not a perception.
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Perception doesn't preclude the existence but withot the ability to perceive it, it isn't there in how we describe as 'light' or as 'sound'.
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You're incorrect. Light and sound have physical realities. Our perceptions of them, which are by the way very faulty, do not dictate their existence. Again, we can scientifically prove their existence through indirect observation, i.e. bypassing our perceptions entirely to view their effects on another, unrelated medium (such as light on a photographic plate for instance).
Light and sound have an objective, measurable reality that in no wise requires perception, human or otherwise, to define.
in fact, we can say that the human perception of light and sound is very limited and barely is able to perceive either of them at all. This is why terms like "the visible spectrum of light" and "the audible frequency range of sound" exist: because we know that we can only perceive a very small part of those things and there is much more to the reality of both of them than we're capable of perceiving. No human eye is capable of perceiving ultraviolet light, but that does not mean it does not exist.
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I didn't say it doesn't exist... I said it doesn't exist as we define the perception of it... What causes it to be observed exists in its measurable quantities but if no entity is there to give it definition or a container to fit it into measurable definitions then it is merely just particles, and such existing without being observed. Until one 'sees' or 'hears' them in whatever capacity the life form has, then it isn't light it is a wavelength. It isn't sound, it is a wave.... etc so on and so forth.
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If a tree falls on a mime in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?
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It emits the waves that can be detected as sound, but like I've been saying. Until those are interpreted by whatever being can sense it, then it isn't defined as sound.
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Are watermelons blue on the inside until acted upon by outside force?
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I didn't say it doesn't exist... I said it doesn't exist as we define the perception of it... What causes it to be observed exists in its measurable quantities but if no entity is there to give it definition or a container to fit it into measurable definitions then it is merely just particles, and such existing without being observed.
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Sorry you misunderstood the principles you're attempting to quote. There is a physical reality that exists beyond observation. You're misunderstanding bell's theorem, where in certain subatomic particles are directly influenced in their behavior by the act of being observed, but that only applies in very specific situations.
And also we don't need to perceive things to observe them. You're confounding the common use of observe with the scientific definition of observe. We can make observations indirectly as well as directly.
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Until one 'sees' or 'hears' them in whatever capacity the life form has, then it isn't light
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That is factually incorrect. Photons traveling through space are light. Always. No matter if anyone sees them or not. Similarly, occilating waves traveling through an elastic medium are the very definition of sound. They can be observed to exist without anyone perceiving them and yes, they are still sound, regardless if YOU personally can understand that things exist outside of your brain or not.
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it is a wavelength. It isn't sound, it is a wave.... etc so on and so forth.
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Again, this is scientifically and factually incorrect.
Sound and Light exist independent of biological perceptions. We can prove this.
I suggest you brush up a bit on basic physics. You're very offbase.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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For that matter, are you sure this is real at all? Perhaps you are dreaming that you are who you think you are, and that you're sitting at a computer reading this thread. Perhaps you are something else when you wake up, but you won't remember that until you do.
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My analogy has always been... What if we are simply babies, dreaming this dream. We are still in our cribs, have yet to wake and this will all have been some wink or glimpse by some spark of imagination. Thats why babies cry.
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You are false data!