Is a zone alive if no one is in it?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, if we're talking from an evolutionary perspective.

But ontologically, Chickens come first. Because the egg is only a potential chicken and a chicken is an actual chicken and since actuality preceeds potentiality, the chicken comes first.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that chicken hatched from an egg, didn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Presumably since oviparous species tend to evole into viviparous species and not the other way around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken. Likely a common ancestor of the Guinnea Hen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which likely hatched from an egg...

[/ QUOTE ]'

Which line of reasoning are you struggling with? The mutation of proto-chicken into chicken or the ontological arguement of potential chicken to actual chicken?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Or, if you prefer, Reptiles, Amphibians, Fish, Insects... all orders of life much older than birds and all of which are known to lay eggs.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken. Likely a common ancestor of the Guinnea Hen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this also implies a type of punctuated evolution of the sort I have never heard of before. I do not think the first chicken hatched from the egg of an ancestor of the guinnea hen.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Or, if you prefer, Reptiles, Amphibians, Fish, Insects... all orders of life much older than birds and all of which are known to lay eggs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question "which came first, the chicken or the egg", it's implicit the question presumes a CHICKEN egg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken. Likely a common ancestor of the Guinnea Hen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which likely hatched from an egg...

[/ QUOTE ]'

Which line of reasoning are you struggling with? The mutation of proto-chicken into chicken or the ontological arguement of potential chicken to actual chicken?

[/ QUOTE ]

So which came first? The potential chicken or the potential chicken's egg?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken. Likely a common ancestor of the Guinnea Hen.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this also implies a type of punctuated evolution of the sort I have never heard of before. I do not think the first chicken hatched from the egg of an ancestor of the guinnea hen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah you're right it's the junglefowl not the guinneafowl.
It was good for you to call fowl on that.

*ducks*

What?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Or, if you prefer, Reptiles, Amphibians, Fish, Insects... all orders of life much older than birds and all of which are known to lay eggs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question "which came first, the chicken or the egg", it's implicit the question presumes a CHICKEN egg.

[/ QUOTE ]

That implies that at some point in the past, a chicken was hatched from the egg of a different animal, albeit likely related. But a housecat cannot spontaneously give birth to a tiger cub (naturally, that is!).

[ QUOTE ]

That implies that at some point in the past, a chicken was hatched from the egg of a different animal, albeit likely related. But a housecat cannot spontaneously give birth to a tiger cub (naturally, that is!).

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright I think that explaining the nuances of how speciation occurs over time (and why housecats dont become tigers) via evolution is beyond the scope of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

So now we know what happened! At some point in the past, a huge burst of gamma rays hit multiple clutches of guinnea eggs, and the ones that didn't die immediately were all mutated into a slightly different bird which we now call chickens. And it turned out they were able to reproduce with each other.

And that's why Adamastor can exist in an empty Dark Astoria!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, before we get to this semi-inevitable point....

There were eggs before chickens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what laid the eggs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Proto-chicken

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Or, if you prefer, Reptiles, Amphibians, Fish, Insects... all orders of life much older than birds and all of which are known to lay eggs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question "which came first, the chicken or the egg", it's implicit the question presumes a CHICKEN egg.

[/ QUOTE ]

That implies that at some point in the past, a chicken was hatched from the egg of a different animal, albeit likely related. But a housecat cannot spontaneously give birth to a tiger cub (naturally, that is!).

[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of people have issues grasping the what comes first concept. This is a very simplistic example:
Species 1 lays egg: Genetic Mutation ensues: Species mutation Hatches:Species Mutation lays egg:Genetic Mutation ensues:Species 2 hatches.

I don't know enough about genetics to know whether the mutation is coded into the yolk or if the mutation occurs as the species develops but that in essence the process.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That implies that at some point in the past, a chicken was hatched from the egg of a different animal, albeit likely related. But a housecat cannot spontaneously give birth to a tiger cub (naturally, that is!).

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright I think that explaining the nuances of how speciation occurs over time (and why housecats dont become tigers) via evolution is beyond the scope of this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Back to the original point. Someone upthread called it "Schroedinger's Zone" and that is a pretty good description. since we have to be in a zone to see if a zone exists then it is not possible to tell if a zone exists or doesn't exist if we're not in it.
That's one of the quantum physics quandaries.

That's because no matter where you go, there you are.

[ QUOTE ]
I think it does, because Zombie/Rikti raids can still hit the empty zones. THey don't usually stick around very long, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, but what about if the events don't happen? What about zones like Faultline, the PVP zones, the Hive, etc?

Oh man this isn't happening, he only thinks it's happening...

Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it does, because Zombie/Rikti raids can still hit the empty zones. THey don't usually stick around very long, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, but what about if the events don't happen? What about zones like Faultline, the PVP zones, the Hive, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then refer to this

For that matter, are you sure this is real at all? Perhaps you are dreaming that you are who you think you are, and that you're sitting at a computer reading this thread. Perhaps you are something else when you wake up, but you won't remember that until you do.

[ QUOTE ]
Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on which form of existence you imply. Do they exist as people somewhere on this earth? Does their character exist? etc.. The answer to both are yes. You can go by get_global_name or get_local_name to prove someone exists whether you can talk to them or not. You can do searches and come up with results that they exist whether you interact or not. As far as do people exist in reality? go to Myspace or any other site and you will find tons of people who exist regardless of whether one chooses to interact with them or not.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it does, because Zombie/Rikti raids can still hit the empty zones. THey don't usually stick around very long, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, but what about if the events don't happen? What about zones like Faultline, the PVP zones, the Hive, etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then refer to this

[/ QUOTE ]

So it is just unseen code being run when no one is there to see it? This implies a transformation of the code into something else when it is being seen through the game client.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on which form of existence you imply. Do they exist as people somewhere on this earth? Does their character exist? etc.. The answer to both are yes. You can go by get_global_name or get_local_name to prove someone exists whether you can talk to them or not. You can do searches and come up with results that they exist whether you interact or not. As far as do people exist in reality? go to Myspace or any other site and you will find tons of people who exist regardless of whether one chooses to interact with them or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This means that K.I.T.T., Doc Brown and Fifi LaFume really, actually exist? Wow!

[ QUOTE ]
For that matter, are you sure this is real at all? Perhaps you are dreaming that you are who you think you are, and that you're sitting at a computer reading this thread. Perhaps you are something else when you wake up, but you won't remember that until you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

My analogy has always been... What if we are simply babies, dreaming this dream. We are still in our cribs, have yet to wake and this will all have been some wink or glimpse by some spark of imagination. Thats why babies cry.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on which form of existence you imply. Do they exist as people somewhere on this earth? Does their character exist? etc.. The answer to both are yes. You can go by get_global_name or get_local_name to prove someone exists whether you can talk to them or not. You can do searches and come up with results that they exist whether you interact or not. As far as do people exist in reality? go to Myspace or any other site and you will find tons of people who exist regardless of whether one chooses to interact with them or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

This means that K.I.T.T., Doc Brown and Fifi LaFume really, actually exist? Wow!

[/ QUOTE ]

They exist on the servers in data bits and mesh textures.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Another question for you.. do other people exist if you're not interacting with them? For all you.. well, for all I know, I suppose, you're all merely part of a complex computer simulation and when I'm not interacting with aspects of it, it shuts down the sensory aspects of them and runs the systems as data.


OoooOOOOooooOOOOooooo *finger waggle*

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on which form of existence you imply. Do they exist as people somewhere on this earth? Does their character exist? etc.. The answer to both are yes. You can go by get_global_name or get_local_name to prove someone exists whether you can talk to them or not. You can do searches and come up with results that they exist whether you interact or not. As far as do people exist in reality? go to Myspace or any other site and you will find tons of people who exist regardless of whether one chooses to interact with them or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Merely programs! Flavor subroutines to add spice to my world! You're all just forum AI! Well, except for the few CoH players I've met in person through drunken parties and a road trip from Chicago to Washington, DC. At least with them I know they have a holographic representation for part of the time I was exposed to them.

Awesome threadjack. (And I'm going with "Sound or light are defined, by us, as specific ranges of energy or vibrations. The object or action exists regardless of perception or definition. Perception is what changes it from 'sound' to 'noise' or 'information.'")

As far as the zones - I'd say they're in limbo. For instance, Adamastor is (as I recall) on a timer. He *will* spawn regardless of anybody being in DA - but if nobody's there, it's merely a checkmark on the "This zone has this active" list on the server.

Or, for another - Croatoa. We know the critters there fight each other when observed - but without someone there to spawn them, they won't fight each other because they don't "actually" exist. Larger events, such as Jack, Eochai, and Sally exist independant of observation, "living" on a timer.

See my Guides and Tutorials