What has happened to this game? (Freedom)
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2009-05-15 16:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Forum Cartel's sappin his team!
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Obviously his team isnt lvl 22 on the count of I see the same ppl in my /search and they are either A already on team or B not lft
Then to reach your personally required level of optimization (for your PvP duels), you need Stamina, because the other options (slotting End Red, getting sets that give +Rec, using Rest) aren't available to you (or if they are, not enough to warrant mentioning). Right?
This desire to have a PvP build does not require the game be altered to give more endurance out, does it? After all, I feel we can agree that a PvP build focusing on dueling is above the normal requirements of PvE play, the play that the majority of the game is balanced around. Can we agree on that, at least?
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Fire/kin trollers with transference? Maybe if u are io'd out and slotted for some major rech, tried it before without stam, it sucked terribly. Give me more terrible builds to play without stam please.
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Fire/Kin without "major rech" and "io'd out" is not a farm build. You go from just another */kin controller to farmer once you have absurdly expensive slotting.
Do you also want to bring up how non-permadom dominators without stamina are unable to farm or handle PVP? Or perhaps non-capped scrappers? The Mako pool attack is also really heavily weighted attack in PVP, but are pretty much crap in normal gameplay.
There are three "extreme" effectiveness areas in this game:
PVP, soloing AV/GM/AT Challenges and Farming. An effective build in one is almost always ineffective at the other 2.
Most of the time board denizens are only interested in the second realm. The first realm depending on which board you're on or the AT in question.
If you fail to specify the context, you will get proven wrong in a way you deem incorrect.
All of my 50s can handle soloing challenges and soloing AV/GMs without stamina. None of them are built for PVP, especially after debuffs and controls were nerfed into oblivion.
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Then to reach your personally required level of optimization (for your PvP duels), you need Stamina, because the other options (slotting End Red, getting sets that give +Rec, using Rest) aren't available to you (or if they are, not enough to warrant mentioning). Right?
This desire to have a PvP build does not require the game be altered to give more endurance out, does it? After all, I feel we can agree that a PvP build focusing on dueling is above the normal requirements of PvE play, the play that the majority of the game is balanced around. Can we agree on that, at least?
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Yes we can. All the same, just a suggestion.
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Forum Cartel's sappin his team!
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Obviously his team isnt lvl 22 on the count of I see the same ppl in my /search and they are either A already on team or B not lft
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Let's see. One 22 that just levelled. Me, 25, who started the team (closest to 22 I had.) Another 23. And just snagged another 23 brute.
All people who would have worked on a team "around 22."
Edit: And just snagged a mastermind. One brute dropped. Rolling on with a team of 4.
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Forum Cartel's sappin his team!
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Obviously his team isnt lvl 22 on the count of I see the same ppl in my /search and they are either A already on team or B not lft
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Let's see. One 22 that just levelled. Me, 25, who started the team (closest to 22 I had.) Another 23. And just snagged another 23 brute.
All people who would have worked on a team "around 22."
Edit: And just snagged a mastermind.
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Brute u snagged could be from the team I just left to go pvp after about 3 fair missions. Also, gj, you did the same exact thing as me. Also, if one of your tms is "lil" something, asked here to join, she said no thank you. Sure more people sign on and off as time passes, doesnt prove anything my friend. Once again, didnt say it was impossible, said it was tougher, freedom used to be full of people lft all day every day, however when I zone in there tends to be a silence. then a few ppl lf ae teams/farms
Yes to which parts? All of it? Just the last sentence in which I establish that "a PvP build focusing on dueling is above the normal requirements of PvE play, the play that the majority of the game is balanced around"?
And if it's "just a suggestion", is it one you "just threw out there", or one you want because you believe it would make the game better for everyone?
I'm trying to communicate here so we can establish a dialog that is constructive to your cause, so you can explain the whys and whats at the core of your suggestion. You're not being very accommodating to that cause. You can give a 10 line response to a perceived insult, but can't spare more then 9 words to me?
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Forum Cartel's sappin his team!
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Obviously his team isnt lvl 22 on the count of I see the same ppl in my /search and they are either A already on team or B not lft
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Let's see. One 22 that just levelled. Me, 25, who started the team (closest to 22 I had.) Another 23. And just snagged another 23 brute.
All people who would have worked on a team "around 22."
Edit: And just snagged a mastermind.
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Brute u snagged could be from the team I just left to go pvp after about 3 fair missions. Also, gj, you did the same exact thing as me. Also, if one of your tms is "lil" something, asked here to join, she said no thank you. Sure more people sign on and off as time passes, doesnt prove anything my friend. Once again, didnt say it was impossible, said it was tougher, freedom used to be full of people lft all day every day, however when I zone in there tends to be a silence. then a few ppl lf ae teams/farms
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What's the brute's name? 
And no, none of them are "lil" anything.
"Tougher?" if this is "tougher," crap, I'd be on a team before I logged in.
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Yes to which parts? All of it? Just the last sentence in which I establish that "a PvP build focusing on dueling is above the normal requirements of PvE play, the play that the majority of the game is balanced around"?
And if it's "just a suggestion", is it one you "just threw out there", or one you want because you believe it would make the game better for everyone?
I'm trying to communicate here so we can establish a dialog that is constructive to your cause, so you can explain the whys and whats at the core of your suggestion. You're not being very accommodating to that cause. You can give a 10 line response to a perceived insult, but can't spare more then 9 words to me?
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This post is simply to address what I feel has become of this game. Prior to my break from this game four months ago, this place was booming and it was very noticeable. I could find large teams all day every day. Now that is not the case. I have to settle for smaller teams and I have to settle for less effective teams. This can be seen when I am trying to form a normal paper mish team red side or a TF such as the STF or Respec blue side which has been the hardest thing to do these days (STF that is) where before I could do it out of the air. Also, the stamina thing was merely a suggestion that could not possibly hurt anyone, if anything it would just give players like myself that enjoy using lots and lots of endo to kill stuff and surviv, customize our builds a little better. Also, brushing off PvP as the minority is counterproductive. The devs have done well in my opinion with helping PvPers lately, however not everyone agrees with this and a swarm of people quit and threaten to quit everyday in the pvp zones due to i13 pvp changes.
Point of this topic, it is tougher for me to find teams, the pvp population has diminished. Anyone that cannot comment on those two statements need not comment at all.
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Also, the stamina thing was merely a suggestion that could not possibly hurt anyone, if anything it would just give players like myself that enjoy using lots and lots of endo to kill stuff and surviv, customize our builds a little better.
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I disagree that it could not possibly hurt anyone, as it would unbalance many things. The game is balanced around not needing Stamina, however it has because a staple because of many reasons, not the least of which is that it is good, really good, to have.
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Also, brushing off PvP as the minority is counterproductive.
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I did not "brush off" PvP as a minority. It IS a minority. That's factual in that the majority of players do not participate in it. This has been acknowledged by the Developers, and they are working on correcting that by making PvP easier to engage in for the average player, something I applaud them for their intent, if not product.
Finally, trying to dictate what posts may, or may not, be placed in a forum, or their contents, is a battle that's lost to all but a few (those few being those with Moderation powers). If you wish to have a discussion, on any topic, you must accept that people will post what they wish, just as you may.
(You may notice that I specifically avoided both of your "points of this topic", because I do not find your anecdotal evidence regarding the difficulty of finding a team over time to be compelling, nor does the current population of PvP concern me.)
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Also, the stamina thing was merely a suggestion that could not possibly hurt anyone, if anything it would just give players like myself that enjoy using lots and lots of endo to kill stuff and surviv, customize our builds a little better.
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I disagree that it could not possibly hurt anyone, as it would unbalance many things. The game is balanced around not needing Stamina, however it has because a staple because of many reasons, not the least of which is that it is good, really good, to have.
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Also, brushing off PvP as the minority is counterproductive.
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I did not "brush off" PvP as a minority. It IS a minority. That's factual in that the majority of players do not participate in it. This has been acknowledged by the Developers, and they are working on correcting that by making PvP easier to engage in for the average player, something I applaud them for their intent, if not product.
Finally, trying to dictate what posts may, or may not, be placed in a forum, or their contents, is a battle that's lost to all but a few (those few being those with Moderation powers). If you wish to have a discussion, on any topic, you must accept that people will post what they wish, just as you may.
(You may notice that I specifically avoided both of your "points of this topic", because I do not find your anecdotal evidence regarding the difficulty of finding a team over time to be compelling, nor does the current population of PvP concern me.)
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that last post was not specific to you at all, but the general pop of people that commented on this thread. I also commended the Devs for attempting to make PvP more "enjoyable" while at the same time causing the general PvP population to discontinue PvP. If you are not going to reply to the thread topic, do not reply at all. Thanks for again wasting my time.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
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From the characters of mine, lets say mid 20s and up
No Stamina on:
Emp/elec (at 50)
Mind/Ice dom (though she is getting it later)
Ice/FF troller
Peacebringer (Mainly stays in Squid form so stamina is of very limited use)
Mercs/Traps MM (No travel power either)
TA/Archery Defender (may grab it if I have spare power picks)
Archery/NRG blaster (stamina on one build, not on his second)
Of those the emp, the dom and the blaster have click powers that affect the blue bar refill or use.
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I have a couple of characters who didn't take stamina.
My emp/elec, one of the first characters I ever made.
Had perma-RA in the old days and I never got around to respec'ing him. He gets along fine with some endrec IOs.
My first villain was a dark/fire brute, played him to 35 without stamina but respec'ed into it because I hated life without swift and hurdle.
My stalker hit 30 and I took stamina because he doesn't have a travel power and I wanted hurdle and swift. I could have done without it- he still hasn't slotted and endmod in its one slot.
My mind/kin respec'ed out of it.
There are lots of situations where you can do without stamina.
Honestly, I pick it up more often than not because I HAVE to have hurdle on all my characters, and once you start down the pathway it's easy to keep going.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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How much pie do you think you could fit in a mini fridge?
[/ QUOTE ] Some if it's Apple Pie, enough if it's Cherry. For anything else the answer is three.
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How much pie do you think you could fit in a mini fridge?
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Depends on the size and type of pies.
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How much pie do you think you could fit in a mini fridge?
[/ QUOTE ] Some if it's Apple Pie, enough if it's Cherry. For anything else the answer is three.
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Most intelligent thing any of you have said all day. At least here I understand your logic.
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Once again, how many Farm builds/PvP builds can go without stamina??
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If you only choose to use highly-optimized and highly-specialized builds as an example, then the argument would be "Stamina is needed for farm or PvP builds". 
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
So, just logged off. Ran almost all of Darrin Wade's arc, with a team varying in size from 3-5 people, 22-25. All of which would fit perfectly fine on any "level 22" team. Took less effort than it has to write this post. Three people, including me, levelled.
I don't see the difficulty. It sure wasn't "tough" in the slightest. It wasn't "tougher" than it has been, certainly. If you look at my reg date, I started about a week earlier than that, and have been here since. I've made my share of teams in that time to compare this to. (And congrats, this is one of the few times I refer to or give a rat's rear about my reg date, because at least in this case, it's relevant.)
So again - I don't know what your difficulty is, unless you're putting such extreme restrictions on yourself that you'll, frankly, never be satisfied.
Do you require everyone to be the exact same level?
Do you require an 8 person team?
Do you require one of each AT, or any specific ATs/powersets?
What is so much more difficult for you when it comes to forming teams? This is not "snark," this is an honest question. What are you doing, looking for, or expecting when you form teams that's making this "more difficult?" To use your own words:
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Also, gj, you did the same exact thing as me.
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Yes, I did. And I got a team. And kept a team going throughout the majority of a mission arc, and it was certainly not difficult.
Okay, now that I have ignored most of the people that are not referring to the topic, maybe I can make some sense of this. So back to the topic. I have noticed that it is harder to find a team compared to 4 months ago, and pvp has gone down.Why is that?
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Once again, how many Farm builds/PvP builds can go without stamina?? Regen Scrapper? I think not, especially when you are facing off against a really sturdy brute. Fire/kin trollers with transference? Maybe if u are io'd out and slotted for some major rech, tried it before without stam, it sucked terribly. Give me more terrible builds to play without stam please.
[/ QUOTE ] Farm builds are an entire different animal and I dont think is really relevant to the discussion. The entire goal of a farm build is to kill at extremely high rates, and getting stamina goes a long way to accomplishing that.
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Well, but wait a minute. The argument I see all the time [not necessarily from you, just sayin'] is that "no one needs Stamina and only lazy/greedy people pick it up."
As Samuel said, I think the definition of "highly functional" is the problem. I think some people are calling being able to fire off three attacks in a row while teamed, "highly functional." That's not my definition.
My definition of "highly functional" is "able to stand there for ten minutes straight pounding on an AV such as Romulus + his Nictus pals, or the entire Freedumb Phalanx at once, without huffing, puffing, begging for blues, having all my toggles dropped, or any of the other bad things that occur when END bottoms out."
I am not here to fire off three attacks and then have to Rest while my team mates pick up my slack. I am here to act as a one person Weapon of Mass Destruction; this is my function and it is very high, admittedly. High function means I need a lot of Endurance and this is just me.... +End power choices are nice, but they nowhere near fill the bill that Fitness does. +End powers are grace-notes, not the foundation of my build. And these powers are almost never, or never, avaliable to me as a lowbie under level 20.
I think a lot of people, especially people blueside, don't see function that way. They're thinking those three piddly little attacks are all they need to do, so why would they need Stamina?
I've found Stamina to be a really really good power to have. Duh! I've also found that, depending upon the archetype and powersets, you can "sacrifice" Stamina for more versatility. Picking up more of a variety of powers on a character that primarily teams can give you a wider variety of options to handle different scenarios. You won't be able to move at as frantic a pace as if you had Stamina, but your playstyle may not require that kind of pace on all of your characters.
For example, one of my early characters is a stone tank. She went for a very long time without Stamina. Soloing, it was a very slow process as I couldn't attack as much as I did when I finally got Stamina (in the late '30's). But on teams, I'd concentrate on maintaining aggro. That was much much less endurance-demanding than concentrating on actually defeating the enemies myself. Since there are almost always damage-dealers on the team, my time was better spent just keeping all of the mobs focused on me.
I have a Radiation controller and defender. Both of them didn't take the fitness line because with Accelerate Metabolism (made more frequent by Hasten), I had better endurance recovery than Stamina offered, and it's available about 80% of the time. It'll be available more often as I optimize even more with some recharge bonuses and when I get an LotG +Recharge. By giving up the Fitness line, especially on my controller, I was able to take more useful powers. The nature of controllers is that with a control primary and buff/debuff secondary, there's a lot of variety that could be had.
On my blasters and such, I take Stamina because I already have the Fitness line. All of the powers in the fitness line are VERY good. On squishies without some form of self-heal, I value Health a lot since it cuts back on my downtime. I've found that between running out of hitpoints or running out of endurance. running out of hitpoints is far more detrimental in a fight.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
So... You read Bill's post, then dismissed it out of hand and went on with the discussion as if his post had no meaning or worth?
Tactful. Fail.
-Rachel-
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This post is simply to address what I feel has become of this game. Prior to my break from this game four months ago, this place was booming and it was very noticeable. I could find large teams all day every day. Now that is not the case. I have to settle for smaller teams and I have to settle for less effective teams. This can be seen when I am trying to form a normal paper mish team red side or a TF such as the STF or Respec blue side which has been the hardest thing to do these days (STF that is) where before I could do it out of the air. Also, the stamina thing was merely a suggestion that could not possibly hurt anyone, if anything it would just give players like myself that enjoy using lots and lots of endo to kill stuff and surviv, customize our builds a little better. Also, brushing off PvP as the minority is counterproductive. The devs have done well in my opinion with helping PvPers lately, however not everyone agrees with this and a swarm of people quit and threaten to quit everyday in the pvp zones due to i13 pvp changes.
Point of this topic, it is tougher for me to find teams, the pvp population has diminished. Anyone that cannot comment on those two statements need not comment at all.
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At this point I think we have two possibilities here:
1. The original poster literally cannot receive any of the advice offered in this thread and is self-generating his own stated "teaming difficulties" due to personal personality traits.
2. The purpose of the original post and subsequent behavior is specifically to generate ongoing attention and more posts.
Note that these two possibilities are not mutually exclusive.
Ohheylookpie.
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Currently on a team of 5 with a lousy healer because there are like 2 healers around my level lft right now...And i sent a tell to every single 1. Go ahead, make a lvl 22 team right now, Red Side.
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This is a problem I find that is very much prevalent blueside and almost non-existent redside. You don't "need" a healer, or any archetype for that matter. Let me give an example: I ran a Moonfire TF with my Warshade a few days ago with: 3 scrappers, a blaster, and 3 Defenders. The defenders were Trick Arrow, Sonic Resonance, and Cold Domination. That means we had absolutely no heal and no Tanker. We still completed the TF in a reasonable amount of time (between an hour and a half and two hours, not entirely sure) with only four deaths throughout the whole TF.
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I have everyone on my team that would come...4 people total right now, trying to get more.
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Yes, I saw you broadcasting.