I have a brute that's been waiting for just this sort of thing, and that I mean to bring over to blueside if that becomes possible. Assuming that it doesn't mean starting over at level 1, losing your enhancements and so forth; that would give pause.
I can't see sending many heroes over there, though.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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With side-switching actually on the way, how do you think this will impact tanks?
Personally, I think there are room for tanks and brutes in 1-50 content, but I'm not sure what the general public will think.
Somebody had to start this thread. 
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First off, I want to say to everyone "I told you so."
Every time I brought up blue side Brutes as a motivation to address Tanker issues, there was a wail of people saying it would never happen, we'll cross that bridge IF we come to it, blah blah.
Well surprise. Johnny was right. Again. Cross the damn bridge.
Second:
We don't know if there's going to be cross faction ATs all the way from levels 1-50.
If Brutes still start in the Isles, and Tankers in Paragon, or both in Praetoria, and they dont cross over until the mid levels or something, that changes things a little. Not a lot though.
Considering Tankers are barely Tankers in the early levels. They're mostly low damage Scrappers with a little more HP. They don't have the tools to tank. Period. Brutes on the other hand, kick a lot of butt right out of the gate.
So in a situation with a common starting zone(s), I can see Brutes easily pulling ahead.
Third, the general public has already spoken. Whenever there's Scrapper vs Brute vs Tanker threads outside of this forum, Tankers are not viewed as favourably as they are here. Some of the people here need to take their blinders off to see that, but regardless.
Tankers are a niche AT. Brutes are far more wll rounded. Joe Blow will likely gravitate towards the Brute. Especially considering for the most part, blue side enemies are more forgiving. With four possible buffing ATs behind them, Brutes will do well enough at tanking for most people's needs.
Lastly, I view this as just the latest in the devs' abuse of Tankers. This is NOT a good thing to happen to Tankers. I've seen what's around the corner, I've seen what's over the horizon, and I promise you, you fools won't have nothing to celebrate. And no, I won't get there with you. I'm going to Champions.
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Personally, I don't really care what the general public thinks about this. I have a group of friends that I play with, so everybody else can stuff it. I'm more interested to know if they're planning on porting Electric Armor/Electric Melee over to Blue side (to Tankers). Anybody know?
50 Tankers: Ice/EM, Stone/WM, Fire/Stone, Dark/Ice, Inv/SS, Inv/Dark, Elec/Elec
50 Brutes: ElecMelee/EA, WM/Elec
All I can say is that with real tanks Redside, The brute and mastermind numbers are going to decline drastically. 'tankerminds' and 'brutanks' are going to be showed up as the poor second rate alphastoppers that they are.
I have played my tanker co-ops with the villains many times, and without fail they are almost shocked at how much MORE capable tanks are of keeping a team, and even a team full of pets, alive.
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Third, the general public has already spoken. Whenever there's Scrapper vs Brute vs Tanker threads outside of this forum, Tankers are not viewed as favourably as they are here. Some of the people here need to take their blinders off to see that, but regardless.
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I think you need to stop worrying so much about what other people think and just play the game.
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Third, the general public has already spoken. Whenever there's Scrapper vs Brute vs Tanker threads outside of this forum, Tankers are not viewed as favourably as they are here. Some of the people here need to take their blinders off to see that, but regardless.
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I think you need to stop worrying so much about what other people think and just play the game.
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Even if the side-switching does hurt Tankers, adding more damage (which seems to be what Johnny usually wants) to Tankers would make them MORE like Brutes and Scrappers, not less, and would probably hurt them more.
If this hurts Tankers, they'll probably need a new inherent or mechanic that helps them more on teams, not makes them more like other ATs.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Well if you're going to bust your game, you might as well go for broke (pun definitely intended).
I hope there is added end-game content that takes advantage of IO sets and any other rewards introduced as well as a way of distinguishing the obviously blending of certain ATs (tankers/scrappers/brutes won't be the only ATs that are adversely effected) with this "expansion".
Historically speaking, I think even Ghandi might be a little pessimistic about the chances of that happening.
But wow the forums will light up!
I think I'll roll up a Fire Tanker for the extra flame protection.
P.S. - Does anyone else read this as just a really big new co-op zone? Doesn't appear to be anything new right off the bat.
BTW it's official:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post13469503
On Blueside, Brutes will be no more suited to really sub for a tank than a Scrapper, and a Scrapper will still generally be better than a Brute for pure damage. Brutes on blueside will become, musically speaking, the baritones, the [censored] child of the male vocal register, not quite able to hit the notes the tenors (Scrappers) can or provide the deep resonance and authority that the basses (Tanks) can.
On Redside, however, Tankers will be... kind of like little aggro holding gods. Frostweaver is totally right. I haven't played the thing, but I've read the wiki page, and I gotta think I'd rather have a fully IO'd Inv tank or Ice tank on an LRSF than a fully IO'd granite brute.
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are going to be showed up as the poor second rate alphastoppers that they are.
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One or two purple inspirations lets any melee AT stop an alpha in its tracks.
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are going to be showed up as the poor second rate alphastoppers that they are.
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One or two purple inspirations lets any melee AT stop an alpha in its tracks.
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Inspirations aren't an unlimited resource. If someone has to eat two purples to take an alpha, they'll run out before the end of the mission when running as point.
If constant purple popping isn't a problem, then neither is doing the same with reds for a Tanker.
WOW the sheer blanketed animosity vs brutes is staggering.
WOW the sheer blanketed animosity vs tanks is staggering.
The only statement on these boards I've failed to argue against, in my head, was when someone stated (and I memorized) (I'm too lazy to look for the link or name, but I salute the statement all the same)
Tanks hold aggro
Brutes manage aggro
Think about it. When you KNOW your toons, you make the difference a blur. On my toons, the difference becomes a blur.
However, if I'm not a brute or tank at the moment, I WILL be standing next to the one with 'actively used' taunt - wether that is the co-op brute or the co-op tank. I don't mean the joke 'my aura is a taunt' either.
These prejudicial judgements based on AT alone in lieu of the playstyle, the player are sadly self limiting.
Brutes cant do the job Tanks do. They try and try, but I always see them fall before I do (not that I fall or anything) . 
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Tankers are a niche AT. Brutes are far more wll rounded. Joe Blow will likely gravitate towards the Brute. Especially considering for the most part, blue side enemies are more forgiving. With four possible buffing ATs behind them, Brutes will do well enough at tanking for most people's needs.
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I would have to agree. My granite brute is a real "brick", hard-hitting and incredibly tough. Other brute secondaries can reach the defense soft-cap which makes them pretty hardy as well.
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Lastly, I view this as just the latest in the devs' abuse of Tankers. This is NOT a good thing to happen to Tankers. I've seen what's around the corner, I've seen what's over the horizon, and I promise you, you fools won't have nothing to celebrate. And no, I won't get there with you. I'm going to Champions.
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I don't think tankers were singled out, they're just collateral damage. (And imho the hero and villain worlds should never have been kept separate, although the rogue expansion is not bringing the wall down the way I would want.)
But Johnny, if tankers get rare, really rare, because of brute-tanking hero-side, then tankers will get something good to revive 'em. Brutes hero-side could mean good things for tanks.
Yes, I expect tanks to become an afterthought with brutes available hero-side. Heck, I'd probably only build brutes hero-side myself instead of tanks, but of course I already have all of the lvl 50 tanks I want. Brutes are reeeely fun, while tanks are more of a chore and require some dedication.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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are going to be showed up as the poor second rate alphastoppers that they are.
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One or two purple inspirations lets any melee AT stop an alpha in its tracks.
.
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Inspirations aren't an unlimited resource. If someone has to eat two purples to take an alpha, they'll run out before the end of the mission when running as point.
If constant purple popping isn't a problem, then neither is doing the same with reds for a Tanker.
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Sarrate, are you a fan of the show "Angel"?
"Angel, I fear you may be looking for a logical pattern in the rantings of someone who doesn't think logically."
-- Wesley
Popping inspirations is something that apparently only non-Tanks are intended to do, which is why Johnny sees this as a balance issue. Or something. I guess.
I still think Tanks are going to be the melee class that really makes out on this deal. Brutes playing blueside are going to be doing it basically as a different flavor of Scrapper, not a flavor of Tanks, while Tanks playing redside will basically rob Brutes of half of their combined Scrapper/Tank role right now for villains. People would no more look for a Brute over a Tank redside to fill the aggro-holding role than they look for a Scrapper over a Tank blueside now.
Only people with the misconceived delusion that Tanks should have Tank mitigation and Scrapper/Brute damage would be upset by this.
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People would no more look for a Brute over a Tank redside to fill the aggro-holding role than they look for a Scrapper over a Tank blueside now.
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I am not sure you understand what brutes are capable of. The many times my 50 stone/stone brute has done the LRSF and tanked Statesman, Citadel, and Back Alley Brawler all three at once while my team handled the rest of the Phalanx persuades me that brutes can easily hold enough aggro to keep a team safe.
Some brute secondaries allow for much greater tanking than scrappers are capable of, and brutes have a damage cap that's really hard to reach.
I'm looking forward to something good coming to those few tanks still running around after this expansion comes out.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
Whereas I am gonna guess that a stone/stone *tank* might well hold them all at once. There's still a fundamental anything-you-can-tank-I-can-tank-better truth to the Tanker archetype that Brutes nor Scrappers can touch.
Blueside, it'll be Brutes and Scrappers that are the interchangeable parts for most teams, not Brutes and Tanks, at least no more or less than they see Scrappers and Tanks and interchangeable.
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With side-switching actually on the way, how do you think this will impact tanks?
Personally, I think there are room for tanks and brutes in 1-50 content, but I'm not sure what the general public will think.
Somebody had to start this thread.
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First off, I want to say to everyone "I told you so."
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I thought you were the one saying it would not happen because then no one would play tankers.... so your "I told you so" would only be valid if:
A) It didn't happen
B) Once it happens everyone quits their tanks and no one ever again rolls tanks.
Option B lays in the future so you'll have to wait to toss the line then.
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All I can say is that with real tanks Redside, The brute and mastermind numbers are going to decline drastically. 'tankerminds' and 'brutanks' are going to be showed up as the poor second rate alphastoppers that they are.
I have played my tanker co-ops with the villains many times, and without fail they are almost shocked at how much MORE capable tanks are of keeping a team, and even a team full of pets, alive.
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^^^
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Think about it. When you KNOW your toons, you make the difference a blur. On my toons, the difference becomes a blur.
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Thrunk: I agree whole-heartedly with this.
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Sarrate, are you a fan of the show "Angel"?
"Angel, I fear you may be looking for a logical pattern in the rantings of someone who doesn't think logically."
-- Wesley
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LifeGuardian: I've never sat down and watched a majority of the show, but I have seen a handful - it was a fun show. I could never get into scheduled TV watching; I always ended up missing episodes. :P
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I still think Tanks are going to be the melee class that really makes out on this deal. Brutes playing blueside are going to be doing it basically as a different flavor of Scrapper, not a flavor of Tanks, while Tanks playing redside will basically rob Brutes of half of their combined Scrapper/Tank role right now for villains. People would no more look for a Brute over a Tank redside to fill the aggro-holding role than they look for a Scrapper over a Tank blueside now.
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LifeGuardian: Huh, that's an interesting take on it. I honestly never thought about it going that way. To be fair, though, Brutes are much more able to hold aggro than Scrappers (they have more global access to taunt auras, Gauntlet-lite, and Taunt instead of Confront). They're also squishier than Tanks with equal buffing and usually don't focus on aggro management (but that's a player issue rather than AT, outside of public perception).
Time will tell which AT comes out ahead.
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Whereas I am gonna guess that a stone/stone *tank* might well hold them all at once. There's still a fundamental anything-you-can-tank-I-can-tank-better truth to the Tanker archetype that Brutes nor Scrappers can touch.
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LifeGuardian: Since Brutes have Tanker caps, it's possible for them to have identical survivability to that of a Tank... of course it would require far more buffs to do so.
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Inspirations aren't an unlimited resource. If someone has to eat two purples to take an alpha, they'll run out before the end of the mission when running as point.
If constant purple popping isn't a problem, then neither is doing the same with reds for a Tanker.
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I don't know. By level 40+ you have 20 insps slots, inspirations drop often, you can combine everything into purples. I've been on missions where I was taking the alpha (on a scrapper) all the time and had to pop purples to survive, and I don't remember running out that often. It certainly wouldn't happen at all if I bothered to buy insps, something I hardly do.
In my opinion, 12.5% def is also a lot more than 25% dam. The latter, assuming 95% damage slotting in powers and no procs or other damage buffs for the sake of simplicity, will be a ~12.5% total damage boost. Best case scenario (no damage slotting in powers, no procs, no damage buffs), it's a 25% damage boost. On the other hand, a luck insp can multiply your mitigation by 250% if you're jumping from 32.5 to the softcap.
With insps, it seems much easier to increase defense than damage output, to me.
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With side-switching actually on the way, how do you think this will impact tanks?
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Not very much. Tankers are still the one-stop-shopping AT for tanking purposes. I'm honestly more concerned about Corruptor/Defender or Scrapper/Stalker balance. I also expect to see a lot of Masterminds blueside for soloing purposes.
Technically, Scrappers and Brutes have a lot of overlap (very similar survivability and damage output), but the playstyle is so different that it will probably come down to preference.
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I don't know. By level 40+ you have 20 insps slots, inspirations drop often, you can combine everything into purples.
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Inspirations don't drop THAT often, and all too often inspirations are of the wrong size to be combined.
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Technically, Scrappers and Brutes have a lot of overlap (very similar survivability and damage output), but the playstyle is so different that it will probably come down to preference.
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I play scrappers and brutes the same exact way - stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab....oh wait where's my team...eh whatever ...stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab stab
The only difference is brutes deal more damage over time if you can keep going non stop and scrappers are more consistent dps.
*feel free to substitute punching, kicking , slicing or smashing at your convenience*
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1
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Paragon Studios is proud to officially announce the next City of Heroes® expansion, City of Heroes Going Rogue! This will be the first major expansion for the City of Heroes franchise since the launch of City of Villains® in 2005.
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Praetoria, a utopian mirror to our own world, hides a dark secret. Exploring this mysterious alternate earth, the heroes and villains of this world feel an uneasiness of doubt creep over them. Loyalties are questioned. Choices are made. Lines are drawn. As they search for the truth behind Emperor Cole and his Praetorian guard, brutal foes and fierce allies emerge, turning this once blissful paradise into a battle ground.
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City of Heroes Going Rogue officially opens the "mirror universe" of Praetoria and an all-new alignment system that explores the shades of gray that lie between Heroes and Villains. For the first time, Hero characters can become Villains and vice versa, enabling Heroes to cross over to the Rogue Isles and Villains to experience Paragon City.
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For more information, read the official press release and check out our new Going Rogue website to view the announcement trailer and register for the latest news and updates for City of Heroes Going Rogue.
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With side-switching actually on the way, how do you think this will impact tanks?
Personally, I think there are room for tanks and brutes in 1-50 content, but I'm not sure what the general public will think.
Somebody had to start this thread.