Tundara also lobbied for ice melee buffs in the same manner a while back, and after about a year of mostly polite suggestions and nudging it got a nice upgrade (an attack equivalent to footstomp w/ ice damg).
Castle is nice, he's reasonable, I've got pms from him despite the claim he answers no one, I know plenty of others do to. But they don't respond to insults, and requests have to be reasonable, there wont be anymore i4 god mode changes.
Yup, if change is what you want Acemace and Tundara are the examples you want to follow. The thing is you either need to champion a change the playerbase already wants or you need to convince them that they want it. IE don't call them names and deride them for not supporting you.
RE Castle: He has always been reasonable, I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself..
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
Castle has never failed to respond to any question I have, and he's always done so in a clear, concise, and polite manner. I may not have always liked the answers I've been given, but they are always there.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I know he responded to one of my PM's once.
Most red names don't respond ever.
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Let me put it this way. I currently have 9 tanks covering every primary and secondary ranging from 28-50 the majority being 40+. I lead two all tank SG for the RO network covering both freedom and virtue. I've tanked every story arc, trial, tf, and many MA arcs. I've tanked through ED, GDN, a handful of taunt changes, IOs, and a couple versions of pvp. To say I have a feel for the AT is an understatement.
For comparison I have half a dozen scrappers across the secondaries, most of the 50. I also have two level 50 brutes and a handful of babies. At one point or another I have tanked with every one of those alts as well.
While scrappers and brutes have thier own charms I find myself missing my aggro control when I play them.
The ability to go rogue will certainly not cause me to play tanks less, my almost four years of ingame experience (without breaks fwiw) tells me that the demand for my services will more than likely increase not decrease.
I am not opposed to change and evolution but I will vehemently oppose anything that I see as a threat to the feel and role of my favorite AT.
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This sounds remarkably like my experience with Tanks in CoH. 
The most fun I've had in the game was on an All-Tanker STF. You should try it, if you haven't already.
As for Tanks getting defender numbers for the leadership pool, I've always felt every AT should get equal numbers for all pool powers anyways, and adjust the AT's primaries, and secondaries to compensate.
Why can't a Blaster be as good a leader as a Defender?
And non-Tanks already get less out of tough/Weave because they have less HPs, and less defense/resists to stack them with so why not make the numbers equal for all ATs?
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and he gives you encouragement as well as critical feedback IMHO and you spit at him for his efforts.
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That's not spitting on him by any means.
I found his "encouragement" patronizing and dripping with derision.
I've always understood I was fighting an uphill battle with little or no support. If Ace truly wanted to offer support, I can think of better ways.
But my response was far from attacking him.
I have no doubt War Mace owes what it is currently to a large part of Ace's efforts.
But that is quite a bit different than the devs taking a 45 degree turn to the design of an AT to help fix an issue they likely don't understand. I mean, we're talking about a guy who proposed a powerset based on the Juggernaut's abilities (a character often specifically stated to almost never tire) should be hard on endurance. Not being a geek with an encyclopedic knowledge of comics is one thing, but if I was designing a game about race cars, I'd damn well do some research and make sure my adaptation wasn't almost the direct opposite of what many people would expect from a feature or mechanic.
I honestly think some of the devs would be better off making a game with subject matter they understand enough to adapt to a game, rather than forcing conventions and concepts into a genre they don't really belong and dismissing those that do.
And I'm going to call shenanigans on a lead dev who claims to read Invincible and only offers medium damage decoys or rampaging savages leashed to a Fury bar.
Ace, if you truly had no malice in what you said, I'm sorry if I offended.
@abnormal_joe
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I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself
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I've gotten a handful of something else entirely from him on a couple occasions.
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[quote
@abnormal_joe
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I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself
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I've gotten a handful of something else entirely from him on a couple occasions.
.
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karma is a b###h ain't it.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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[quote
@abnormal_joe
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I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself
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I've gotten a handful of something else entirely from him on a couple occasions.
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karma is a b###h ain't it.
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Chicken meet egg.
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See. I'm still not sure why you believe that you, above everyone else, should be "listened to" and that your vision of what tankers should be is the "solution to tanker problems". It comes across as very egotistical and you seem to throw more temper tantrums then my neighbor's spoiled 6 year old daughter. As I've mentioned before, even if I thought your overall idea had merits for tankers I doubt your ideas will at this point in time ever get anything more then a roll of the eyes as you've become sort of the "rabid dog" who won't let go of his "tanker-omination" chew toy.
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How true.
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Before you go "I'm being a tank" on this idea, please stop and think. The general community has rebutted your every attempt at pushing this idea. Even though you probably won't ever believe it, maybe your idea isn't the best thing for tanks. Please, do yourself a favor and step back from the idea for a while. Look at it with fresh eyes and look at CoX as a whole. You may not change your mind about the idea, or you may come up with a better one. You may even figure a better way to present or prove that your idea is either a good one or the best one. And your continuing to use a four year old quote from the lead designer who no longer works on the game isn't going to help you win your argument no matter how much you'd like it to. That kind of argument doesn't work in divorce cases much either.
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Good luck on your attempt at reason. Good ideas are proposed all of the time for insuring Tankers have a role in this game. It is a sad fact that many are lost in the JB V. The World battles of the week.
Just because it has been pointed out that JB's "Detractors" never present any ideas of their own for fear of being flamed. let me post my thoughts on what could be done with Tanks to make them more attractive.
1st rule. Tankers defenses and aggro abilities must remain untouched. My first job is "rodeo clowning" AKA Tanking, not scranking AKA feeding my own ego.
1. Make no changes to the Tanker AT as a whole and focus balance efforts on individual powersets. Arguing for Tankomination, damage bonuses, or whatever might be unbalancing for some power sets but reasonable for others. Lets allow the Dev team the freedom to apply balance efforts where needed.
2. Allow Tankers to use Defender or Controller numbers for Leadership pool. This allows more build options without adding something for nothing so to speak.
Apply an additional inherent ability into Gauntlet such as those suggested in this thread or others like it. None of these are my idea and I take no credit for them. These ideas in no particular order include resistance debuff, regeneration debuff, Mez stacking., extra damage V. Bosses and higher.
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I personally like the idea of attaching any new mechanic for tankers, whatever it may be, to Gauntlet. That way it becomes more of a proactive thing.
Originally tankers complained that their taunt auras and taunt really weren't enough to make them feel that they were actively adding value to their team. Gauntlet has fixed some of that but I still feel like it's a largely transparent thing.
I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.
Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.
Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.
My apologies if someone has already gone over this particular permutation of the ideas suggested.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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I've gotten a handful of PMs from him myself
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I've gotten a handful of something else entirely from him on a couple occasions.
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Where I come from we call that a hint. In this case possibly about changing the demeaning aggressive pit-bullish way you present any idea?
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...On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage...
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I tend to dislike this line of thinking as the explanation for low Tank Damage. 'Holding Back...', 'Pulling Their Punch...'
What? Are Tanks the only thoughtful ATs out there? What don't Blasters ever give any thought to the collateral overkill they may be causing.
I explain my SS tanks lower damage by saying that, yes, she is Super Strong, but can't build any speed when she punches. Kind of like a regular Human hitting with Brass Knuckles. It's gonna hurt more, but not break the target in half.
Lots of Tankers wouldn't hold back if they could do more
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...On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage...
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I tend to dislike this line of thinking as the explanation for low Tank Damage. 'Holding Back...', 'Pulling Their Punch...'
What? Are Tanks the only thoughtful ATs out there? What don't Blasters ever give any thought to the collateral overkill they may be causing.
I explain my SS tanks lower damage by saying that, yes, she is Super Strong, but can't build any speed when she punches. Kind of like a regular Human hitting with Brass Knuckles. It's gonna hurt more, but not break the target in half.
Lots of Tankers wouldn't hold back if they could do more
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Eh, explanation of powers and effects is really up to the individual player. I just tossed that in to add some flavor.
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What don't Blasters ever give any thought to the collateral overkill they may be causing.
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Just to be snarky, I'd have to say no based on my experience.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
<QR>
Assuming there is no stupid nerf to zero clause (lose your levels/ stuff) I'll switch back and forth a ton. I may even roll a second ice/ss to play redside.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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Eh, explanation of powers and effects is really up to the individual player. I just tossed that [holding back] to add some flavor.
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I agree, but I've just seen this 'explanation' quite a few times in articles or posts about Tanks. Didn't like it then either :P
Not really related: I've read many of JB's posts, and while he'll never be a head of Public Relations, I can see his point on some levels, because to be honest, I just don't like the concept of a Tank herding, in a SuperHero MMO or any other.
You yell or smack at enemies, which gets them to ignore the really dangerous fire throwers and mind controllers of the party, so they'll bunch around you instead.... Okay. I know it's a computer game, and the NPCs are just computer code, but they're supposed to represent something that has a semblance of a brain. Only cows would let themselves be herded like that.
Of course, with current game mechanics, Tanks are very tactically beneficial, and because of that there will be players that play them, but herding, while obviously useful, is just a conceptually boneheaded thing. I'll yield that's *my* opinion, but it is my opinion 
I've had a Tank say, 'I'm herding them to this corner.' A few moments later he's running by me, leading a trail of baddies. They'll run right by me, ignoring me. It's like watching a parade.
In a superhero game, 'locking down' mobs should be done via Super Powers. Mind Controls, trapping in Ice and Earth, Force Fields (the forte of controllers, defenders, and similiar ATs). Yelling and taunting being a power that results in something similar is just weird if you think about it... "Hey, your Mama's boyfriend is a Troll, now come to me and ignore that Blaster who can burn you to a crisp in 2 seconds!"
In any case, it's done. Tanks are here to stay. It's not a game breaker for me, and I actually think my Inv/SS is pretty fun. There's a certain thrill in standing in the middle of a gazillion mobs and being able to take it all. That's cool. But Taunting, Grouping, and Herding - I see the usefullness, but not the coolness...
QR - didn't read the whole thread, since quite a bit of it seemed off topic.
I have a pet tank who seems to do very nicely, and I doubt she's going to be deleting and re-rolling as a Brute.
On the other hand, I personally don't see any reason to play a tank anymore. Never loved them, and now I don't have to play a tank in order to be a hero and have decent shields.
QR
Last night, one of the people on my global 'friends' (I don't consider him a friend anymore, just an adult who likes to complain like a five year old whenever the Devs do something. For example, the 'nerf' to Fire Tanks way back in the issues) wanted to get into arguement with me about how I said Exploding Shuriken was a horrible power and scolded him for having it on his Spines/Fire even when I made my Fire/Fire way before he made his Scrapper.
So after he was done putting words in my mouth, I told him maybe he confused the time where he said that Tanks are useless and how Scrappers can easily replace them. All of this was refuted by "Scrappers need IOs" to do it. His response was "So?" Where am I going with this? I'll tell you right now. He thinks Brutes will replace Tanks for some odd reason even when Brutes are squishy as hell. I told him that Brutes are more like Scrappers and he said he already knew that. If he already acknowledged it, then why did he try to compare the two?
What's so funny about all of this is that he still plays his Fire/Fire Tank and has yet to delete it, despite all of the crying.
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and now I don't have to play a tank in order to be a hero and have decent shields.
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If all you want are decent shields, you never had to play Tankers at all. Scrapper defences have always been decent. Tanker defences are simply superior.
Agreed.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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and now I don't have to play a tank in order to be a hero and have decent shields.
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If all you want are decent shields, you never had to play Tankers at all. Scrapper defences have always been decent. Tanker defences are simply superior.
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*shrugs* And I disagree. I'm not willing to trade defensive capability for damage. If I play a Brute, I can have both.
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and now I don't have to play a tank in order to be a hero and have decent shields.
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If all you want are decent shields, you never had to play Tankers at all. Scrapper defences have always been decent. Tanker defences are simply superior.
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*shrugs* And I disagree. I'm not willing to trade defensive capability for damage. If I play a Brute, I can have both.
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When I play a Tanker, I want to play a brick, something you pound on and on and on until the bad guys fists are bloody. I like having some damage, sure, but shoot, I actually went from lvl8-20 with one tanker just running Mudpots and his lvl 1 attack, thats it. To me, a Tanker is there to be the one being hit, the shield for the team to hide behind. It is a thankless job at times, but it is one I relish when I play my tanks.
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On the other hand, I personally don't see any reason to play a tank anymore. Never loved them, and now I don't have to play a tank in order to be a hero and have decent shields.
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Just as this idiot topic was left for dead someone's got to add their 2 cents.
Just did an ITF with a mix of brutes & tanks yesterday, and once the buffs wore off the brutes they were absolute toast and me on my old invul moved in and pulled the agro to save their weak arses over & over.
Hey with buffs even a damn blaster can tank, that's nothing to brag about, but when the buffs wear off and your guy is the last line of defense for your team, hell I'll take a tank over a specialty AT any damn day of the week.
And by the way, the more Brutes are made out to be as durable as Tanks while still doing amazing damage, the more you're pleading for the powers guy who reads this to bring their shields down for GR.
You're not very bright if you don't think that's how he'll deal with that. Because the man already thinks tanks are too strong.
Someone thinks they are God's gift to COH.
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Someone thinks they are God's gift to COH.
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It's true, I do. 
You are such a rabble-rouser.
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Castle is unlikely to respond to you
Castle is unlikely to respond to anyone.
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but if you feel the need, start your own thread with various suggestions
Been there, done that. The last general discussion thread on the issue that I launched was the one where Castle dragged it OT and got half of it nuked.
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It took a couple years but mace got a great buff
It did?
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You'd have to learn to talk with us rather then at us
You'd have to listen and share my general opinion instead of pushing for the exact opposite. I've got little interest in shoving Tankers further into a niche as aggro monkeys, which is where I see 85% of suggestions coming from by the people who who crap on my efforts.
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Wow, you really can't take feedback from anyone. Acemace, has SUCCESSFULLY lobbied for change of a Tanker power-set and he gives you encouragement as well as critical feedback IMHO and you spit at him for his efforts. I encourage anyone who is really interested in lobbying for changes in any AT to follow Acemace's example, and for your own sake don't act like JB.