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I just really don't like tanking for teams .. too much like being the de facto team leader. 
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Don't foregt people resenting you for it, too.
.
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People only resent bad tanks. If you run into this alot, perhaps tanking is not for you.
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People only resent bad tanks. If you run into this alot, perhaps tanking is not for you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps?! J_B's biggest complaint is that he has to be saddled with aggro management. I think there's no question that he'll be better off with a Brute playing whatever content he wants.
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J_B's biggest complaint is that
[/ QUOTE ]
...the devs decided to represent the heavy hitting, tough heroes from comics as mediocre damage decoys and distractions.
My second complaint being they admitted four years it was a mistake that should be fixed and still won't do anything about it. In fact they have routinely done things to make it worse, like side switching.
The third complaint is now we're going to have Brutes running around blue side to make Tanker offense look even worse in comparison.
Way to shaft Tankers, devs...again.
And lastly, Brutes are hardly a substiitude for thoese tough, heavy hitting heroes I refer to since those heroes are most often NOT ruled by berzerker fury and rampages. Brutes are not heroic, even if you mash them into blue side.
*
Maybe in the expansion the devs can add some more temp powers and IO sets to give Brutes and Scrappers even more free increased damage mitigation without cutting into their offense. That'd be just awesome for Tankers.
.
[ QUOTE ]
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J_B's biggest complaint is that
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...the devs decided to represent the heavy hitting, tough heroes from comics as mediocre damage decoys and distractions.
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MMORPG /= comic book. When will you get this? Apparently, never.
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My second complaint being they admitted four years it was a mistake that should be fixed and still won't do anything about it. In fact they have routinely done things to make it worse, like side switching.
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Why would I want to invite a squishy Brute unless it's Granite? So I can see them faceplant constantly?
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The third complaint is now we're going to have Brutes running around blue side to make Tanker offense look even worse in comparison.
Way to shaft Tankers, devs...again.
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Even when Brutes are brought to blue-side, I would easily prefer a Tank over one because they're good at doing several things. One of them happens to be not dying.
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And lastly, Brutes are hardly a substiitude for thoese tough, heavy hitting heroes I refer to since those heroes are most often NOT ruled by berzerker fury and rampages. Brutes are not heroic, even if you mash them into blue side.
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I've never found the Brute's damage cap to be any that good unless it's an AV fight because pretty much at that point everyone is close or is at the damage cap obliterating mobs just as fast as a Brute is.
*
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Maybe in the expansion the devs can add some more temp powers and IO sets to give Brutes and Scrappers even more free increased damage mitigation without cutting into their offense. That'd be just awesome for Tankers.
.
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Funny thing is, Brutes and Scrappers need IOs to achieve the survivability as a Tank. Which says something about them, no?
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MMORPG /= comic book. When will you get this?
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Two other comic book MMOs look like they're going to be doing those heroes more justice than here. Super heroes aren't rodeo clowns. That's what they get it seems.
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Why would I want to invite a squishy Brute unless it's Granite? So I can see them faceplant constantly?
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Why don't you go over to the brute forums and tell them how squishy and weak they are.
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I would easily prefer...
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I really don't care what you prefer.
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Funny thing is...
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Funny thing is the people who made this game admitted Tankers as implimented were a mistake and it seems newer super hero MMOs have learned from that mistake and are trying not to repeat it. So you defending that mistake at this point and working against fixing it is the funny joke around here.
.
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MMORPG /= comic book. When will you get this?
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Two other comic book MMOs look like they're going to be doing those heroes more justice than here. Super heroes aren't rodeo clowns. That's what they get it seems.
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Then stop playing this game. Seriously, why are still here?
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Why would I want to invite a squishy Brute unless it's Granite? So I can see them faceplant constantly?
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Why don't you go over to the brute forums and tell them how squishy and weak they are.
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Compared to Tanks, they are squishy. What Brutes would have trouble with, Tanks just wipe it off their shoulder.
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I would easily prefer...
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I really don't care what you prefer.
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Since you responded to that part, I think you do.
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Funny thing is...
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Funny thing is the people who made this game admitted Tankers as implimented were a mistake and it seems newer super hero MMOs have learned from that mistake and are trying not to repeat it. So you defending that mistake at this point and working against fixing it is the funny joke around here.
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Way to cherry pick in the favor of your mediocre argument. Hell, that last bit wasn't even talking about if Tanks were a mistake in this game or not. It was about Brutes and Scrappers needing IOs to come even close to the survivability of a Tank.
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Two other comic book MMOs look like they're going to be doing those heroes more justice than here. Super heroes aren't rodeo clowns. That's what they get it seems.
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Not that I have seen. Both DCUO and CO look like they are all melee characters scrappers, with a tanker toggle. So they will either be survivable or damaging, not both like the comics. If you want to compare to the comics all 3 fail. Superman doesn't lose his massive strength just because he stops a few bullets directed at Batman.
Dirges
While I always get a chuckle out of J_B's posts, I think I'll actually respond to the original post.
I will be bringing my Axe/WP brute blue-side when I can. He's fashioned after a barbarian from Cimmeria (Straight out of the Conan stories), and the Rogue Isles don't fit with his code of honor. He is NO ONE'S lackey. However, I'll be advertising myself as more of a DPS than Aggro Management, and would go so far as to say that Tanks will royally ruin his game because of their ability to squash a fury bar.
And, from all the time spent in the RWZ and Cimerrora, I've never heard anyone say, "Get a brute instead of a tank, they're better." But, I have heard people say, "We don't need that brute, I'll just grab my tank." That speaks volumes, I think, about where tanks stand in relation to brutes.
Victory
Schattenbolt - Blaster Elec/Elec/Elec
Pierce Steele - Blaster Arch/MM/Munitions
Paragons of Victory
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Not that I have seen. Both DCUO and CO look like they are all melee characters scrappers, with a tanker toggle.
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I can't comment on what I haven't played, but if all their melee characters are "Scrappers", and that's the toughest "class," wouldn't that make them the toughest and most melee damaging?
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Not that I have seen. Both DCUO and CO look like they are all melee characters scrappers, with a tanker toggle.
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I can't comment on what I haven't played, but if all their melee characters are "Scrappers", and that's the toughest "class," wouldn't that make them the toughest and most melee damaging?
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This quote pretty much says it all. You problem isn't with Tankers, but that Tankers exist at all. You don't want a Tank, you want a Scrapper; yet since something is tougher than a Scrapper, it automatically has to be the mirror of Superman (etc).
The fact you're not saying that Scrappers don't represent people like Superman because they take too much damage makes absolutely no sense. (If you think Scrapper Invuln is anywhere close to Tanker Invuln... heh...)
[edit: It also plainly says you want something that deals the most damage and has the most survivability.]
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[edit: It also plainly says you want something that deals the most damage and has the most survivability.]
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What, like a psy-blaster that wears power armor, or a mage that can tank, or something?
Victory
Schattenbolt - Blaster Elec/Elec/Elec
Pierce Steele - Blaster Arch/MM/Munitions
Paragons of Victory
[ QUOTE ]
You problem isn't with Tankers, but that...
[/ QUOTE ]
I told you what "my problem" is.
The issue is that the devs decided to represent the heavy hitting, tough heroes from comics as mediocre damage decoys and distractions.
And then even after they admitted it was a mistake and saying they were going to fix it, they didn't.
Get it through your skull.
.
aka, someone else does more damage, but is less survivable. That can't be right!
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Quick update on Johnny's rantings:
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The issue is that the devs decided to represent the heavy hitting, tough heroes from comics as mediocre damage decoys and distractions.
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Wrong. It was players who wanted increased aggro abilities. This forum played a big part in directing Tanker changes.
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And then even after they admitted it was a mistake and saying they were going to fix it, they didn't.
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Wrong. Tankers have went through a ton of changes since that ancient quote you're obsessed with it, most notably Punchvoke/Gauntlet which allowed them to use their attacks instead of constantly Provoke.
This has been explained to you before, so please...
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Get it through your skull.
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Wrong. It was players who...
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Would that be the same players who flocked to the MA so they could abuse it and farm better?
Did you ever stop to think that increased aggro abilities may have caused some redundancy issues for the AT and that Tankers in general could be a case of overspecialization? Or than the game today is a different beast than then and perhaps Tankers as they are now don't fit as well into the current paradigm as they used to?
No you didn't. You're convinced Tankers are awesome, have no design flaws and couldn't stand to be tweaked the same way Domms just got tweaked. Hardly sounds like a non-biased viewpoint to me, but hey whatever.
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This forum played a big part in directing Tanker changes
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, for good or ill it has in the past. And now it enforces a status quo and gangs up to attack and suppress people suggesting changes that don't agree with that status quo. And that includes not only me, but anyone who comes by and disagrees being an aggro monkey is all that and thinks that maybe Tankers could use improvements and adjustments.
But you're NOT the totality of Tankers, or players of this game for that matter, and it's been my observation there's more people playing this game who are open to Tanker offense tweaks than I've seen here who are utterly against them. So maybe some day the devs will see that too and act on it.
And I'll say it again: For two and a half years I've been standing up to you guys here with the odds not in my favour and taking whatever you throw at me. So who's the real Tanker?
.
For simplicity's sake, I'll just point out the accurate parts of that rant:
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But you're NOT the totality of Tankers, or players of this game for that matter,
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You're right, I'm not.
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Wrong. It was players who...
[/ QUOTE ]
Would that be the same players who flocked to the MA so they could abuse it and farm better?
Did you ever stop to think that increased aggro abilities may have caused some redundancy issues for the AT and that Tankers in general could be a case of overspecialization? Or than the game today is a different beast than then and perhaps Tankers as they are now don't fit as well into the current paradigm as they used to?
No you didn't. You're convinced Tankers are awesome, have no design flaws and couldn't stand to be tweaked the same way Domms just got tweaked. Hardly sounds like a non-biased viewpoint to me, but hey whatever.
[ QUOTE ]
This forum played a big part in directing Tanker changes
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, for good or ill it has in the past. And now it enforces a status quo and gangs up to attack and suppress people suggesting changes that don't agree with that status quo. And that includes not only me, but anyone who comes by and disagrees being an aggro monkey is all that and thinks that maybe Tankers could use improvements and adjustments.
But you're NOT the totality of Tankers, or players of this game for that matter, and it's been my observation there's more people playing this game who are open to Tanker offense tweaks than I've seen here who are utterly against them. So maybe some day the devs will see that too and act on it.
And I'll say it again: For two and a half years I've been standing up to you guys here with the odds not in my favour and taking whatever you throw at me. So who's the real Tanker?
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I lol'd
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Wrong. It was players who...
[/ QUOTE ]
Would that be the same players who flocked to the MA so they could abuse it and farm better?
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No. No, it wouldn't be. Your lack of knowledge of the game's history is showing again.
[ QUOTE ]
Did you ever stop to think that increased aggro abilities may have caused some redundancy issues for the AT and that Tankers in general could be a case of overspecialization? Or than the game today is a different beast than then and perhaps Tankers as they are now don't fit as well into the current paradigm as they used to?
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I thought about it before answering. And my answer is: No. Tankers are by far the best at controlling and surviving aggro. Many controllers and the occasionally talented Dark/Dark defender can come close to Tanker levels of aggro control hero-side, as can skilled and specially built Tankerminds and Granite Brutes villain-side. But when teams have aggro control problems, they invariably look for a tanker if they can find one before anything else. So are they redundant? No.
Are they overspecialized? Again: No. Tankers control aggro remarkably well, but not at the expense of doing anything else any other character can reasonably be expected to accomplish during the course of normal gameplay. They may not solo missions as fast as the fastest AT can, but that doesn't mean they're the slowest either.
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No you didn't. You're convinced Tankers are awesome, have no design flaws and couldn't stand to be tweaked the same way Domms just got tweaked. Hardly sounds like a non-biased viewpoint to me, but hey whatever.
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Considering that the 'tankers are fine' argument is based on objective data regarding the performance of the AT, a comprehensive knowledge of the history of this game in particular, and a care towards game balance in general, as opposed to quotes from four years ago, tired metaphors, and the dog-eared pages of Action Comics, it is pretty unbiased.
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This forum played a big part in directing Tanker changes
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Yes, for good or ill it has in the past. And now it enforces a status quo and gangs up to attack and suppress people suggesting changes that don't agree with that status quo. And that includes not only me, but anyone who comes by and disagrees being an aggro monkey is all that and thinks that maybe Tankers could use improvements and adjustments.
[/ QUOTE ]
And they will face opposition if those improvements and adjustments come at the expense of game balance.
[ QUOTE ]
But you're NOT the totality of Tankers, or players of this game for that matter, and it's been my observation there's more people playing this game who are open to Tanker offense tweaks than I've seen here who are utterly against them. So maybe some day the devs will see that too and act on it.
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Maybe when CoH2 is about to go gold, the devs will remove damage caps and boost tanker damage to Kryptonian levels just for laughs, but I highly doubt your vision of tankers being the best at everything will come to pass before then.
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And I'll say it again: For two and a half years I've been standing up to you guys here with the odds not in my favour and taking whatever you throw at me. So who's the real Tanker?
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Meh, you just have no-timer Phase Shift running.
Johnny's arguments are weak:mediocre damage.
His metaphors are laughable:rodeo clown
He thinks all arguments are his personal territory:aggro monkey.
OMG Johnny is a tanker incarnate!!11!!1, which means that he is Statesman, which means that all his posts are a Nemesis style plot to create an mass exodus to his new project. em/faint
Welcome to Johnnyland folks don't bother looking at "real numbers" he contols the world in which you play.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
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You problem isn't with Tankers, but that...
[/ QUOTE ]
I told you what "my problem" is.
The issue is that the devs decided to represent the heavy hitting, tough heroes from comics as mediocre damage decoys and distractions.
And then even after they admitted it was a mistake and saying they were going to fix it, they didn't.
Get it through your skull.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
you whine a lot for someone who didnt play a tanker before issue 4
tankers are more than fine now. their dmg is fine. their survivability is second to none and even when one puts io sets into the mix, they can reach pre issue 1 levels of protection.
you werent here for issue 1 so you would have no clue on that.
really unless you played back when unyielding not only rooted you in place but rooted you to always face the same direction you were in when you turned it on (making teleporting around somewhat disorienting)...just...go away.
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really unless you played back when unyielding not only rooted you in place but rooted you to always face the same direction you were in when you turned it on (making teleporting around somewhat disorienting)...just...go away.
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It's not that people had to have played back then, they just shouldn't use quotes from that era and pretend that no improvements have happened since then.
But this point is moot in Johnny's case, as he purposely posts incorrect statements to provoke responses.
QR
The day I'm not out-damaging half the Scrappers I meet while managing aggro for a team the entire time is the day Tankers are overspecialised.
Scrappers in all but a few build combinations are single target specialists and can't really pull off much more than that, beyond taking the odd alpha strike. Meanwhile, Tankers often end up far more balanced between single target and AoE while being able to take alphas and manage the aftermath. In that way, shouldn't we say that Scrappers are far more specialised than Tankers?
The beautiful thing is that Scrappers are, as they should be. It's the required essence of Scrapperlock.
Brutes fall somewhere in-between. They only reach Scrapper-like damage levels when the priority is on them on a team (either they are being buffed or are taking enough and landing enough attacks to keep Fury up high). The more balanced a team, the less a Brute contributes.
So no, overspecialisation isn't a Tanker's "problem," it's simply that J_B hates managing aggro, yet likes the name of the AT.
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you whine a lot for someone who didnt play a tanker before issue 4
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You're insulting for someone who doesn't know what a Shift key is.
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I just really don't like tanking for teams .. too much like being the de facto team leader.
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Don't foregt people resenting you for it, too.
.