Live Feedback: Issue 13 : Multi-Builds
By
AlwaysCranky,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 19:21 in Developers' Corner
Objective: The ability to change builds "on the fly" would be nice, rather than having to do it at a trainer. And the timer should be shorter as you level. 15 minutes at lvl 1, down to something nreasonable at 50.
Subjective: I wish I had enough infl. to pay for a second build...
Objective: As it is now, you have to reselect your powers from level 0. Including spending the time to select the first power in your secondary set, even though you have no choice there, you can't skip that power, and select something else. If this could be changed to work a bit more like a respec to where it's auto-selected for you would make the creation of your first muliti-build on a character a little smoother.
Subjective: The 15 minute timer... honestly when you're -playing- the game, the 15 minute timer isn't a problem, but say you log into a toon, you've got a build for soloing, and a build for teaming. You're on your teaming build, and you feel like you feel like soloing. You switch your build to solo and then you get a tell maybe from a friend, or an SG/coalation mate asking if you want to team, maybe for a badge mission that you've wanted to get in on. Now the entire team has to wait 15 minutes for the switch.
I would think 5-10 minutes would work better, or if there was a way to switch builds quickly provided you haven't used any powers since the initial switch. But I don't know if that's even possible..
Or even Increasing Returns! Heh.. You start on one build, and switch. Wait time is 5 minutes. Then you switch again, and it's 10 minutes, switch again, 15, and all this is tracked in a play session. Obviously a quick work around there would be to log out, and back in to reset that, but... *shrug* Just a couple thoughts.
The only issue I have with this feature is how long it takes to switch between builds. I've often been soloing and then get a group invite only to have the team fall apart before they even begin a mission. If I switched to a team build for this then have to go back to soloing I'm stuck in my build. If you want this to be a much used feature lower the timer to 5 minutes.
Having to buy all new enhancements, means I'm not going to try it.
If you only had to buy new enhancements for the powers you changed, it would be fine.
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Having to buy all new enhancements, means I'm not going to try it.
If you only had to buy new enhancements for the powers you changed, it would be fine.
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I had expected activating the second build to start the respec screen, not retrain from zero. It frustrated me greatly that I could not access the same 'pool' of enhancements. I do not have the resources on any of my characters to repurchase and remake all the IO sets I'd need for the second build.
I haven't used any secondary builds, and suspect I may never use them. 
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
When I had first heard of the dual builds Idea I had expected the builds to be quickly changable and easy to manage but the fact that you cant level up your alt built like you do respec is really annoying and time consuming.
Also the toll this takes on my cash flow is pretty massive. I never really had team or solo characters I mostly went for functional but the little bit I have tried with my characters so far doesnt make me want to take part in the dual build aspect of the game at all. Specially if you had a character that had been bascially finished off for enhancements (maxed out, best stuff you can get) and then to imagine buying a whole nother set of that?! I dont know how many millions of influence I poured into my DB/SR scrapper but I cant imagine buying that many Lotg recharge procs again ever...
I dual builded my Fortunata/Widow where I find the dual build to be the most use for my team and I.
I do wish there was an option to just use the same enhancements is you are picking the same powers. To refit all the enhancements bankrupt me and it seemed silly that I was refitting certain powers with duplicates of the exact same enhancements for the exact same powers in both builds seemed to serve no purpose. If a superhero has power a in one build and power a in the second build, why would he need to switch out complete enhancements. Its like telling a comic book hero "sorry but your cybernetic heart doesn't work in this configuration, so we'll need to do surgery each time just to give you a new power when you change suits."
Also, the 15 minute timer AND having to go talk to a trainer seems to discourage dual building and its usefullness to teams. A simple fix would be to all switching on the fly, shorten the timer to 5 minutes, and put in something that says you can't switch builds inside a mission area.
Also, when leveling up, leveling both builds is frustrating, as is using enhancements. There is currently no way that I can be on build 1, and then stick a dropped enhancement into build 2, or level build 2 without being stuck using build 2 for 15 minutes. A button allowing me to enhance both builds without switching builds, and a way to level both builds without being forced to be stuck on a build for 15 minutes would help remove the frustration of the 15 minutes timer.
This is especially true if I find that build 2 is more useful to my current team, but level and have a tray full of enhancements or recipies I can use for build 1, but am afraid to switch over to build 1 because of its lesser usefullness to the current team, causing me to either have to travel to a vault, have some things full preventing me from getting drops, or sell things I can use to free up room.
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Having to buy all new enhancements, means I'm not going to try it.
If you only had to buy new enhancements for the powers you changed, it would be fine.
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I had expected activating the second build to start the respec screen, not retrain from zero. It frustrated me greatly that I could not access the same 'pool' of enhancements. I do not have the resources on any of my characters to repurchase and remake all the IO sets I'd need for the second build.
I haven't used any secondary builds, and suspect I may never use them.
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Agreed on all counts.
((Time Spent Grinding) - ('Fun' Factor)) = Waste of Time
This is subjective, but I would find a changing booth in my base to be quite useful. It would let me put all my storage and crafting tools right next to where I'm messing with the new build. For fun you could even use the current "Bathroom doors" as the model for the changing room. ::grins::
I was pretty excited about dual builds until I saw how it was implemented, and what a debacle pvp has become. The worst disappointment is that you have to buy enhancements all over again for the second build, because apparently spending untold amounts of time io'ing out the first build wasn't enough. This has made dual builds useless to me.
Subjective Feedback :
a) Having the ability to switch between different character builds is a very handy function. For some characters I have a 'PvP build' and another for 'PvE'. Other characters I have builds formatted to make flashbacking easier. It's a very nice thing to have, and I'm glad to have it.
b) I am happy that previously-slotted enhancements do not carry over into the new build. This gives me something more to strive towards.
c) The 15-minute delay between switching builds seems arbitrary at first glance - why is there any delay longer than there is for switching costumes? Is it lag-related, or something geared towards stopping exploitative behavior?
d) Having to 'train' your multibuild is kind of annoying, having to click the Trainer, click to level, put in your slots or power selection, then do it all over again 49 times... it is a little annoying and I wonder if there would be a better way to do it. If it would take a significant amount of effort behind-the-scenes then it wouldn't be worth it, IMO.
Multi Build is a nice feature.
But 15 minutes between switching is just too long.
Especially when you accidentally click on it. =(
The 15 minute timer is lame. reduce it plz.
The seperate enhancement thing I have no problem with. Its the timer thats my issue. Having to wait 15 minutes is way too long and its even worse to make a team wait that long. Time is money in this game many people can only afford to play this game for an hour a day because they have no time, it is awful that it gets cut down to 45 minutes all because of the switching of builds. Also the level in which this start is kind of late. I was hoping you can do this switching at lvl 1 instead of 10. I understand you devs dont want to confuse people but honestly how stupid do you think your players are? We will figure it out no need to delay this feature to level 10.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Am glad for the second build. Gave up a lot of powers to accomodate the new pvp ruleset. Having another build option makes this less painful.
Ambivalent about getting all new enhancements. On one hand, I'd like my second build as functional as the first. On the other, it gives me something else to work on with my level 50 toon.
QR
having to "train" level by level is a pain. If it could be implemented similar to a respec it would be much more user friendly.
I really like the option and I have been asking for it for a while. Now, if I could only swap power sets... (I would make my fire/ice tank an ice/fire tank.)
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
Objective:
The most use I've heard of people getting out of dual builds (multiple players today vs 1 player using them previously) has been for a SS/CJ build for the Ski Slope/Luge
Subjective:
When I initially heard of Dual Builds my plans were along the lines of Soloing/Teaming builds. With having to use all new enhancements for a second build, I won't be using this feature except to get ski slope badge anytime in the foreseeable future.
Why:
1. A Second build built from anything other than SOs or possibly generic IOs is simply too expensive for me.
2. Even if I could afford it, would I be able to fill in the missing pieces using the Merit System any time in 2009?
3. I certainly could not do this on more than one character (costs, merits). To do so would require shelving IO goals for my alts.
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Mostly Subjective:
As most people have pointed out, the timer is indeed too long.
Having to switch builds at a trainer is hassle enough, there does not seem to be need for a long timer on top of that. If the problem is about switching builds midfight for exploiting, the switch at trainer takes care of that part. Timer seems like overkill. Or keep a timer but allow to switch anywhere (which seems more dangerous).
The main reason I will NOT be using this feature beyond the late 20s respec on most chars I do, is because of IOs. Most of my alts getting close to their 40s and beyond start to get IOs in their builds. Getting IO sets and uniques has become much much more expensive (redside at least) since i13 and merits. There is no way I am playing one build decked with hundreds of millions worth of inf on one build and SOs in the other. Besides a joke build or a gimp build for gigles.
I prefer to spend time on new characters with diiferent powers rather than keep playing the same char over and over to IO out his second build. This is the lynchpin of what makes CoH a different and enjoyable MMO for me. All other games are about 'maxing your main' getting the next big loot just released whereas CoX has been about developping heroes. I have no 'main' really in this game. I might be in a lonely spot in here however.
Dual builds. I was trying to compare the benefits of the electric mastery shield on my cold defender versus the invuln shield on the power mastery in my alt build. OMG. 15 mins to switch between builds was so freaking annoying. It took me an hour to do an analysis.
And then on top of that, I nearly broke my toon with regular io's and like maybe 3 sets ios on the first build. You telling me I gotta do repeated boring lvl 50 content over and over to get money for a new set? At least have the set benefits transfer from the main build to the 2ndary. And to prevent cheating, if a person makes the same set on the other build, It doesn't stack.
I am an alt person myself. That is what keeps the fun of the game. If I have to spend too much time to work on dual sets, that slows down the fun.
Suggestions for Dual Builds
1. Allow a person the choice to pick which set benefits are universal.
2. Give us the monetary value of our enhances on the 2nd build in influence. A separate influence pool. so say you spent 100 million on enhances at wents for your first build, you should get that amount in influence on your 2nd build's influence pool.
3. Leveling up at the trainer is fine. Some people think it's slow but, If you want a lvl 20 version and a lvl 50 version, that is the best way to do it. You can't stop lvling in a respec like fashion. You have to go all the way up. Some people want a low version of their toon and a high version.
4. I say no to people who want to be able to choose entirely different sets. Why Alt then?
5. You guys gotta fix the power switch/alt time. 15 mins is a bummer. Sometimes you just wanna check which build could use a repec or what it needs at wents. I personally say it should be as easy as a costume change with a 1 min delay. And a screen that prevents you from attacking while in transition. That way you can't have massive amounts of power available during PVE missions or PVP. Or a nice only affecting self would do. Kinda like the PFF or RAGE drop period. Also, switching Mid mission or while a mission is selected should be unavailable. If you didn't get stealth on a build, you shouldn't be able mid mission, to switch and get to the end boss. Tuff luck. Fight it out. Or start the mission over and switch to your stealth build.
My two cents.
Training level by level is annoying, BUT having a VEAT at 50 and then having to not only train level by level but also switch out and do an extra half build because at 24 you get a free respec is even more so.
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I was pretty excited about dual builds until I saw how it was implemented, and what a debacle pvp has become. The worst disappointment is that you have to buy enhancements all over again for the second build, because apparently spending untold amounts of time io'ing out the first build wasn't enough. This has made dual builds useless to me.
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A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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I was excited about dual-builds, but I won't bother with this feature until you can use your IOs across both builds. Otherwise just call this the "gimp build" option.
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Multi Build is a nice feature.
But 15 minutes between switching is just too long.
Especially when you accidentally click on it. =(
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I don't understand the accidentally clicking on switching the build. You would have to accidentally ckick on the switch option, then accidentally click on the other build, and then accidentally click the confirm?
That's 3 accidental clicks from different areas of the screen. How does one do that?
I'm enjoying the dual build feature so far.
The main use I've had for it is to work on a new build for my character, while leaving the previous one intact so I can keep playing. This works since I have the resources of course.
Additionally, I've used it in the low levels to try out different powers to see if I like them or not.
I like how it's done as a level-up and not a respec. I like how the builds don't share enhancements. It has an elegance to it.
I don't like the 15 minute timer. I tend to want to switch to one build to train and try a power, or equip some enhancements, and then switch back again. 15 minutes is prohibitively long for this activity, so I have to adjust and try and do it before or after I start playing.
I'd like it if the power trays could be set up on the second build so I wouldn't have to arrange all of my powers again. Many powers are shared in both builds.
I'd like a nice visual representation of which build I am on currently. Naming the builds would be nice, or linking them to default costumes. Having to peer at my enhancement screen to figure it out is a little frustrating.
Use the following topic to discuss Issue 13's Multiple Builds.
<ul type="square">[*] Characters can create a second build with different power selections and enhancement slotting, and switch between builds by talking to any Trainer for Heroes or any Arbiter for Villains. Now you can have separate builds for soloing and grouping, or for PvP.
[*] The second build works like a respec, so you can change anything except your Primary and Secondary powersets.[*] Enhancements are not shared between builds. The second build is slotted with enhancements separately from your first build.[*] You can swap builds once every 15 minutes.[*] All powers fully recharge when switching builds.[*] Switching between builds has no influence or infamy costs.[/list]
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Feedback is important to our development process, there are two types of feedback and both are helpful although some give us more insight and are more easily adapted into game changes.
Objective Feedback: Objective feedback is based upon what you as a user see or experience that other users may also see and experience. This feedback usually can be replicated easily as it involves facts and unbiased opinions. Example: When using the base editor items are sometimes getting caught in columns or pillars.
Subjective Feedback: Subjective feedback is based upon how you feel or experience the game as yourself. This experience may not necessarily be replicated because it is based on feeling and emotion. Subjective feedback is important to us but it is usually helpful if more information is present to describe what and why you feel the way you do. Example: I like the way the graphics look on my shield animation it gives me the feeling of being truly super-powered.
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