Jaaax

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They didn't listen to pvpers, I guess you badgers are next on the list of customers that really don't matter to NCsoft. Sad, very sad. Not the people I enjoyed doing business with for the past 3 years. A new direction, most definitely; ignore your current players hoping to attract some larger mystical group. That's been tried fyi; it fails. Learn from others' mistakes or simply repeat them and join them in the dustbin.

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Jaaax, you keep saying you'll quit but you're still posting in the forums. Would it not be more useful if you gave constructive feedback instead of ranting about quitting CoX? The wall of text being generated now is blocking out every other Forum posters' suggestion.

If the Devs listened to every single person's suggestions/wants/needs/giefs and implements them all, I'm sure there'll be loads of balance problems. So let's wait out for a response from the Devs before we pull out our stakes and hammers and crucify them before they have a chance meet, discuss, decide and reply.

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Time card, runs out in a couple days. I've been giving constructive feedback since before closed beta. It's been generally ignored. This brings me back to "game card, runs out in a couple of days." When the time card expires, so does my ability to post here, not before. Since the game I enjoyed was overwritten, the only value I'm getting from my time card is the ability to post here and provide feedback.

Btw are you kidding about giving the devs a chance to respond? Did you not read the 300 page thread begging them not to do all this crap? That's more than 300 pages, not posts, and they didn't listen. They told us to chill and/or that the changes were being made with someone else in mind. Did you not read their responses? Did you miss when one of their staff left over it? Where have you been?

All that's left to say is, since you screwed us, and didn't listen to our feedback, when this time card runs out, your game pop is dropping. Everything else has already been said and ignored. And there was a general consensus in the 300 page thread too, it wasn't isolated people asking for things on a whim. It was a group of players asking not to have our game over-written and our progress thrown out.

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OK, I've read through about half of the posted comments on this patch. What has been bothering me about this patch is the actual patch itself, the odd power tweaks and such (notice how I'm not mentioning the badge-sniping). There are bugs in this game that have been interfering with game play for a couple of months, namely the chat-clipping and the inability to set/enter homogeneous hero or villain missions while players are out of zone. These aren't even listed as known issues, which makes me wonder... why? These aren't quality of life issues or things that bug PVPers or badge hunters-- these make game play frustrating every time I and my gaming buddies log into the game. Not patched. Not mentioned. On the radar?

I suspect the developers are very busy preparing I14, the next booster pack and future content, and I don't expect things to be fixed overnight. But I'm talking about major, universal, problems that cropped up before the winter event and I guess I'm kind of stunned at the lack of notice or mention of them. Moreso when I look at the content of this patch.

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Ignore serious bugs and issues and focus on new content for a new potential audience. Also been tried; also fails. Why do people insist on repeating others' mistakes, despite all the obvious warning signs?

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I think there is a disconnect between the players and the developers. The developers are (have to be) interested in game play issues. The players, especially those with many toons hitting 50, have to find ways to make the game continue to be fun for them.

For many, like me, badge hunting is the path to fun. And us badges have taken some hits lately (have you tried to get the Volcanic Badge since they sissified The Hollows?) The Reformed Badge (and it associated Longbow Special Ops Badge) and the Fabricator Badge are severely infuriating events to us and to more than a few, they are nails in the coffin.

I don't think the developers understand or appreciate it. And I have the really bad gut feeling that if they do try to placate the badges they are going to make it worse

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They didn't listen to pvpers, I guess you badgers are next on the list of customers that really don't matter to NCsoft. Sad, very sad. Not the people I enjoyed doing business with for the past 3 years. A new direction, most definitely; ignore your current players hoping to attract some larger mystical group. That's been tried fyi; it fails. Learn from others' mistakes or simply repeat them and join them in the dustbin.

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I have been the biggest "fan boy" of CoH for years. But there is WAY TOO MANY CHANGES going through, onto live, WITH NO NOTICE to the players.

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Just wondering, but would it matter if they gave us notice of changes like this? They're gonna do it anyway, 9 times out of 10.

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The difference (and it's a big one) is that we no longer know what we are paying for when we subscribe. We believe we are getting one service, but instead we get something else entirely, and it's something that we do not want. This is totally unacceptable behaviour on the part of the service provider, and as I've said, I will no longer be doing any business with NCsoft as a result. They've crossed far too many lines with Issue 13, lines that were never crossed in my previous 3 years of gaming here.

I'm aware that Backalley brawler has told us, as customers, to chill out. No sir, I don't think that's the appropriate response. Instead why don't you give people what they've paid for, and respond to the overwhelming feedback of your paying customers. I think the devs need to "chill out" with all of these unwanted changes. The response you are getting has been evoked by your wreckless disregard for customer satisfaction.

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As to the Brainstorm conversions: in light of this change Fabricator should be reduced to 2,000 crafts. The 1,000 to 10,000 jump never made much sense anyways.

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Not at all.

I got it well before brainstorms ever existed. So did every other person who really wanted it. Fabricator is an epic badge. It was obviously intended to require epic level effort to receive. So a later issue has a feature that makes it much easier to get the epic badge, but that ability was unintended, how does the removal of that feature somehow retroactively mean that the badge was never intended to be epic in the first place? Heck, when Fabricator's requirements were set the Devs probably hadn't even considered removing base salvage yet or creating the whole Brainstorm system.

The badge is still available (not like some >cough&lt. Anyone can still get it the same way everyone else got it prior to i13. Easy-mode for this badge has been removed, that's all.

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Zub, I respect you a lot, but you are wrong. If the forum monster didn't purge a couple of threads in this section, I would be able to directly link you to Positron's posts.

Good thing that Red Tomax City of Digest keeps copies :
http://coh.nofuture.org.uk/digest/in...p;post=7984068
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Master Craftsman isn't impossible for a character to get sub-40, especially if they are crafting for most of their levelling. That series of badges counts ANY use of a crafting table (converting base salvage as well), and the other badges needed for the Accolade get you almost halfway to Master Craftsman on their own.

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http://coh.nofuture.org.uk/digest/in...p;post=8018477
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The "1000" badge is for any use of the crafting table... making base items, converting Salvage, etc. all count towards it. Not just Enhancements.

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They are going back on Positron's words that any use of the crafting tables count for that series of badges.

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Good quotes, thank you for posting them. I've observed that the further we go into I13, the more and more current player progress and feedback ceases to have the value it once did.

It's very clear that they are after a new and hopefully larger target audience, and that current players have become expendable. You may consider me hereby "expended." Good luck with your game, NCsoft. With your current approach, you'll need plenty of it.

While you're at it, go ask some current or former staff at SOE how this tends to work out.

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Altered Teleport Foe so that it disables the :automatic" critical ability of Stalkers for 4 seconds if it successfully hits (not necessarily moves) a target.

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more nerfs for stalkers?

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Apparently yes.

The overwhelming feedback about the pvp changes to stalkers is that they went much too far. I'm saying this as a hero/scrapper. Stalkers used to be feared. They are now not even a threat. They are a wasted archetype in PvP.

This further reduction of their ability to "stalk" and do some meaningful damage flies in the face of pages of current player feedback.

Apparently current player satisifaction is no longer a priority at NCsoft. Actions speak louder than words. Saying that you want our feedback, and then going even further with the I13 nerfs says that you don't really value our feedback.

Fine then. I only play games where player satisfaction and feedback is actually valued. That ceased to be the case with I13. This is a fork in the road for NCsoft, and I do believe they've chosen the wrong path.

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Either roll back pvp to issue 12

or

Keep, no toggle drop, dual build, -range with tuant, increase dmg (maybe)...

Take out : DR, HD, Suppression

Give melee back its mez prot

Give everyone who has mezz the ability they use to have..

Then just focus on the outliners that were breaking pvp to begin with.. Just a few things that werent performing well you bring them up.. and the ones that was rediculus you bring them down.. and you have the "datamining" so you should know which ones.

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Yes, this is exactly what we need, and a lot of people seem to see it. An excellent summary.
Also, please make meaningful pvp rewards actually tied to pvp directly. Don't have people enter pvp zones for non-pvp rewards. The pvp is just then resented. Give people meaningful rewards for pvp success (e.g. cash in rank points for merits AFTER a set amount of time.) Maximum merit points acheivable in an hour, for example, would not exceed maximum merit points available in a one hour tf. This way it couldn't be abused.
Also, please give us a nice big red shiny ignore button to deal with smack talkers. We can ignore them now, but it could be easier, and this would be very handy for new players that don't want to be insulted upon entering the zones by the few pvpers that seem to get something out of insulting others.

Objective: I keep selecting the rings after rescuing baby new year, but I never seem to get them. Seems like a bug.

Subjective: any way I can get these? I like 'em

Am glad for the second build. Gave up a lot of powers to accomodate the new pvp ruleset. Having another build option makes this less painful.

Ambivalent about getting all new enhancements. On one hand, I'd like my second build as functional as the first. On the other, it gives me something else to work on with my level 50 toon.

I greatly respect your decision to look in new directions. Given the current player/NCsoft schism over PvP 2.0, and the mixed messages the community has been given, I wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of that. I'm not saying I know what your motivations are. I'm not a mind reader, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was one factor.

You have always represented the players with integrity. You have my thanks and great respect. Thank you for all you've done, and best wishes in all you do.

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I'd like to respond to the following comments from Positron about the PvP segment of I13:

"Matt Miller: Issue 13 started off having all sorts of new features tied around PvP, simply because it was a system that we had not put as much attention towards in the past. When we began to play these new systems, the feedback we got was that none of them were any fun. This was really disappointing, since they looked good in design. When we drilled down to exactly why they were not fun, we came to the sobering realization that the lack of fun wasn’t the new systems’ fault, it was PvP as a whole that was limiting. Certain powersets dominated. Certain ATs were impossible to beat. Certain tactics were fun, but only for the person employing them. For everyone else these tactics bordered on “frustrating”, “annoying”, and a plethora of other words that are antonyms for “fun”.

PvP as a whole needed to be fixed. We’d let the current system get into a state where only a small handful of our players actually used it. If we were really going to invest in these new PvP systems, we needed to get the current PvP game to be accepted and used by more than just that handful of players. Floyd “Castle” Grubb and his team poured over datamines, made a whole slew of changes to the way powers behaved, and even went so far as to pre-tackle sticky issues like many-on-one ganking.

As a player of CoH I am excited to see what my Dominator will bring to the table in PvP after Issue 13 goes live. The playtests have been nothing but fun here in the office, and I hope that the efforts of Castle and his crew can be tried out by people who have been turned off by PvP in the past. I urge everyone who found PvP in CoH to be frustrating and un-fun to come back and check it out in Issue 13. "

First off, unpopular game revamps tend to go wrong mainly with the data-mining that leads to important decisions. This is what I'd like to focus on.

One comment talks about certain builds currently dominating pvp. One of these happens to be the "dominator." How do they dominate? They set their build up to have "perma-dom," in other words other players are put into a never-ending hold state.

Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. In I13, Positron is looking forward to see how his dominator can compete. Doesn't he realize that this is already one of the most powerful builds?

And what does I13 do with perma-hold? Removes mez protection. One of the reasons that I've always been able to compete with dominators is my mez protection, and that has been removed. I used to try to get in close to a dominator before the holds stacked enough to overwhelm my mez protection. This was fun for BOTH of us. The move in I13 seems badly disconnected from what really needs to be done. In fact it seems to be going in the opposite direction.

Why not give other builds a measure of mez protection to try to allow them to get hits in before the holds take effect? The slower your build, or the more limited your range, the longer your mez protection should last. Highly agile, ranged builds should get some mez protection, so they don't get insta-mezzed and killed, but it should be a small amount because of their high powered ranged attacks.

This modification to the current game would make a huge difference for builds (squishies) that are currently no fun to play in pvp. One of the reasons they aren't fun is that they usually get instantly mezzed and killed.

In the I13 changes, now MORE builds are getting instantly mezzed and killed. Thus it seems that more people are frustrated, including scrappers, who currently don't have this problem because of their mez protection.

Another hard to beat build includes defensive powers like intangible and hide. Simply put, a villain (usually stalker) will attack. If he/she doesn't kill you out right, they will then hit the intangible button, and go to hide, rendering counter-attack impossible.

This has not been addressed in any way in I13. It continues to be a guaranteed hit-and run tactic which some people find frustrating.

Now, let's look at what makes some builds competitive. Tanks are great in pvp because they can take a ton of damage. Their big problem though is that they can't move (builds like stone tanks I mean). What makes them competitive on the mobility aspect of things? TP self. This is the only way they can have any mobility (again thinking stone tanks). I13 is removing this from the game. Certain tank builds will therefore be much less competitive.

Let's talk about some other builds that do well in current pvp. How about the ice/cold corruptor. Very, very good for ranged damage, slows, holds etc. A nice build. In fact this is the most challenging build for me to fight as a regen scrapper. It's the slows and high ranged damage that get me. Is this frustrating though? No. It's very enjoyable. What makes it this way is my ability to teleport myself out of a slow attack TO my attacker and hit him with my Katana. Slow vs. tp self is balanced. I have a good chance to win, but if the corruptor is alert and mobile, my tp self/melee attack will miss him.

Also, web grenades as a melee toon give me a chance to bring down fliers, so thank goodness they have decided to give those back.

I'm very much hoping that the development team will read what I've written above about mez protection, and how to improve instead of removing it. I hope they'll see why their current approach to mez will actually spread frustration around more widely. I'm also hoping they'll take a look at limiting the range of tp self, so it can still be used by stone tanks, and for counter attacks against ranged builds with slow powers, instead of removing tp self altogether. I think limiting the range of tp self, eliminates it as a guaranteed escape strategy, but still allows stone tanks to move, and scrappers to tp themselves TO ranged attackers.

Also, to the development team and decision makers. I apologize for the way I've expressed my frustration at times. I felt that I was losing a lot of invested time and energy, and that my voice was not being heard. I think the frustration is understandable, but I'm not happy with the way it was expressed.

Also, please recognize that current pvpers DO recognize a need for change. We also feel that we know the pvp system extremely well, strengths AND weaknesses. We feel that we have important input. Please don't dismiss this just because we found ways to enjoy the current system. Yes we like it AND we see room for improvement. Please do not see these two things from an either/or perspective.

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VERY nicely put. Better then my anger based Rant....Be nice if the Devs actually consider your opinion.....I'd be absolutely amazed....but It would be nice. Might wanna add in a solution to gankin the Ios bein useless an the Buffs bein Ganked....I used ta enjoy Team PvPin.....(Including bein the Solo VS a group of Villians) Not even worth doin now. Still....Nice ta hear The PvPers opinions so elequently put. Good Job Jaaax

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Well thanks, I'm sort of past my initial reaction, which was one of hurt and frustration. I'm trying to communicate my point of view clearly and respectfully.

I'll also add to earlier thoughts a bit. I don't pvp in Warburg. A lot of people don't pvp in Warburg. There may be many reasons for this, but I'll give you mine. I don't want to steal people's launch codes.

Make it hard for them to get launch codes? O.k. sure, make them run the gauntlet. That's not so bad. But, after they've rescued 2 or 3 scientists and they're finally about to complete the launch sequence, I really don't want to kill someone and take their codes. I don't want to do this because it really pisses people off.

Don't get me wrong though, I think people in pvp zones are "fair game" so to speak. I'm just saying that I'd pvp in that zone more often, and others might as well, if we weren't forced to steal someone else's codes, that we probably don't want in the first place.

This is personal preference, I realize, but it is relevant to why some of the zones might be less populated. I prefer RV, partly because of this launch code issue, and simply because I enjoy the use of my full range of level 50 powers there.

Again, this brings up Issue 13. I have a level 50 character with a full range of powers, that are fun and well slotted...and now being removed or suppressed. That doesn't add fun for me; it takes it away.

If I was going to see things slowed down at all, I'd sooner see it done in degrees. Here's what I mean. In the lowest level pvp zone travel powers would be somewhat slowed. Jump would be less high, and tp self very limited in range.

In the next level pvp zone, the speeds, height of jump and tp self range would be somewhat increased. As you get to RV, the speed keeps increasing.

This would address one of the developers objectives that I think I understand: Lessen the learning curve for new pvpers.

At the same time, however, it would allow experienced pvpers the option of fast-paced 3D combat, with their full range of powers.

The zones would have differing degrees of speed, allowing for many pvp options that people could choose from. I'd much sooner see this than severe suppression implemented in all zones.

I also have a thought regarding the intangible/hide escape that doesn't involve a nerf. This would also work to counter the tp self escape, once again without a nerf. Why not make a disrupt opponent's tp proc and a disrupt opponent's intangible proc to the game. Allow me to slot an attack with something that give me a 20% chance to disrupt an opponent's escape. That would be great fun for me. If I get to keep my tp self, but an enemy has a chance to disrupt it, it would be fun to see who won the contest. Sometimes I would get away--fun for me. Sometimes I would get disrupted--fun for my opponent. Procs could work the same way for intangible. Again, no nerf, but an addition of something that puts an end to guaranteed escapes.

I'd like to respond to the following comments from Positron about the PvP segment of I13:

"Matt Miller: Issue 13 started off having all sorts of new features tied around PvP, simply because it was a system that we had not put as much attention towards in the past. When we began to play these new systems, the feedback we got was that none of them were any fun. This was really disappointing, since they looked good in design. When we drilled down to exactly why they were not fun, we came to the sobering realization that the lack of fun wasn’t the new systems’ fault, it was PvP as a whole that was limiting. Certain powersets dominated. Certain ATs were impossible to beat. Certain tactics were fun, but only for the person employing them. For everyone else these tactics bordered on “frustrating”, “annoying”, and a plethora of other words that are antonyms for “fun”.

PvP as a whole needed to be fixed. We’d let the current system get into a state where only a small handful of our players actually used it. If we were really going to invest in these new PvP systems, we needed to get the current PvP game to be accepted and used by more than just that handful of players. Floyd “Castle” Grubb and his team poured over datamines, made a whole slew of changes to the way powers behaved, and even went so far as to pre-tackle sticky issues like many-on-one ganking.

As a player of CoH I am excited to see what my Dominator will bring to the table in PvP after Issue 13 goes live. The playtests have been nothing but fun here in the office, and I hope that the efforts of Castle and his crew can be tried out by people who have been turned off by PvP in the past. I urge everyone who found PvP in CoH to be frustrating and un-fun to come back and check it out in Issue 13. "

First off, unpopular game revamps tend to go wrong mainly with the data-mining that leads to important decisions. This is what I'd like to focus on.

One comment talks about certain builds currently dominating pvp. One of these happens to be the "dominator." How do they dominate? They set their build up to have "perma-dom," in other words other players are put into a never-ending hold state.

Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. What does I13 do with perma-hold? Removes mez protection. One of the reasons that I've always been able to compete with dominators (or widows) is my mez protection, and that has been removed. I used to try to get in close to a dominator before the holds stacked enough to overwhelm my mez protection. This was fun for BOTH of us. The move in I13 seems badly disconnected from what really needs to be done. In fact it seems to be going in the opposite direction.

Why not give other builds a measure of mez protection to try to allow them to get hits in before the holds take effect? The slower your build, or the more limited your range, the longer your mez protection should last. Highly agile, ranged builds should get some mez protection, so they don't get insta-mezzed and killed, but it should be a small amount because of their high powered ranged attacks.

This modification to the current game would make a huge difference for builds (squishies) that are currently no fun to play in pvp. One of the reasons they aren't fun is that they usually get instantly mezzed and killed.

In the I13 changes, now MORE builds are getting instantly mezzed and killed. Thus it seems that more people are frustrated, including scrappers, who currently don't have this problem because of their mez protection.

Another hard to beat build includes defensive powers like intangible and hide. Simply put, a villain (usually stalker) will attack. If he/she doesn't kill you out right, they will then hit the intangible button, and go to hide, rendering counter-attack impossible.

This has not been addressed in any way in I13. It continues to be a guaranteed hit-and run tactic which some people find frustrating.

Now, let's look at what makes some builds competitive. Tanks are great in pvp because they can take a ton of damage. Their big problem though is that they can't move (builds like stone tanks I mean). What makes them competitive on the mobility aspect of things? TP self. This is the only way they can have any mobility (again thinking stone tanks). I13 is removing this from the game. Certain tank builds will therefore be much less competitive.

Let's talk about some other builds that do well in current pvp. How about the ice/cold corruptor. Very, very good for ranged damage, slows, holds etc. A nice build. In fact this is the most challenging build for me to fight as a regen scrapper. It's the slows and high ranged damage that get me. Is this frustrating though? No. It's very enjoyable. What makes it this way is my ability to teleport myself out of a slow attack TO my attacker and hit him with my Katana. Slow vs. tp self is balanced. I have a good chance to win, but if the corruptor is alert and mobile, my tp self/melee attack will miss him.

Also, web grenades as a melee toon give me a chance to bring down fliers, so thank goodness they have decided to give those back.

I'm very much hoping that the development team will read what I've written above about mez protection, and how to improve instead of removing it. I hope they'll see why their current approach to mez will actually spread frustration around more widely. I'm also hoping they'll take a look at limiting the range of tp self, so it can still be used by stone tanks, and for counter attacks against ranged builds with slow powers, instead of removing tp self altogether. I think limiting the range of tp self, eliminates it as a guaranteed escape strategy, but still allows stone tanks to move, and scrappers to tp themselves TO ranged attackers.

Also, to the development team and decision makers. I apologize for the way I've expressed my frustration at times. I felt that I was losing a lot of invested time and energy, and that my voice was not being heard. I think the frustration is understandable, but I'm not happy with the way it was expressed.

Also, please recognize that current pvpers DO recognize a need for change. We also feel that we know the pvp system extremely well, strengths AND weaknesses. We feel that we have important input. Please don't dismiss this just because we found ways to enjoy the current system. Yes we like it AND we see room for improvement. Please do not see these two things from an either/or perspective.