Live Feedback: Issue 13 : New Power Sets: Shields
By
CaptA,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 19:12 in Developers' Corner
I've been mostly focusing on a Broadsword/Shield Scrapper on live after trying a Shield/Fire Tanker on test.
Objective Feedback
Even low level enemies pack enough Defense Debuff power to erase the +Def of Shields. Witness the effect of Council machine guns and many Enemy bladed weapon attacks.
It is not unusual to see Base Defense drop to -30% or lower while fighting enemies with Defense Debuffs on a team of 3+ members. This leads to the perception that the set is weaker than it really is since failures tend to occur in cascades.
One moment you're fine, the next your Defense is non-existent and you're taking 2-3x as much damage as usual. The external perception of that is that the character is fragile.
I don't find this to be an issue with Shield itself however, but rather with the scale of Defense Debuffing available to the Enemies in the game.
Subjective Feedback
In practice the set is actually pretty resilient. Especially with Parry stacked on top.
The Shield powers form a decent base so that reaching the "soft cap" for melee defense is doable in 2 successful hits. In the face of defense debuffing this is sometimes even enough to salvage some workable defense after the initial barrage of bullets.
Broadsword and Shield together make for an Endurance intensive combination however, so much of the time it feels like the character is gasping for breath (pre-Stamina and IO slotting that is).
Overall, Shields seems to perform reasonably well and I expect my character will be extremely potent with the addition of Aid Self and IO bonuses.
"Striving for the impossible" doesn't mean "toiling in vain". It means growth. It means improvement in the direction of your ideals. Not futility.
Erfworld: the Battle for Gobwin Knob
Objective: Choosing shields on the character creator couldn't be more annoying. Unless it included being poked in the eye.
Subjective: My year old is in love with Shields. Someday I hope he gives me some time to play so I can try it out...
I like the concept, but they set really still needs some tweaks IMO. I have more scrappers than I care to list but this one seems to really take a beating compared to the others.
My Dark defense and my Fire defense scrappers both are squishy but have something to offer in return. With Fire you have an amazing heal in Healing Flames, this really helps mitigate some of the damage you take. You also have a shield that damages the enemies as you fight them, cutting down on your kill time.
On the Dark side of things you have a ton of damage mitigation by using Cloak of Fear or Oppressive Gloom, or both. Also you once again have a very nice self heal power and a damage aura.
A poster above mentioned that Parry helps to mitigate damage, and as a broad sword scrapper I agree. But what about people who don't use broad sword? You should never be locked into using a primary to make a secondary viable.
The same can be said for endurance usage, I do find it to be a big heavy. I should never have to use IO's to make my endurance consumption viable.
I like the set, have a scrapper in the 30's and have started a tank as well, but really hope that they tweak it some.
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Objective: Choosing shields on the character creator couldn't be more annoying. Unless it included being poked in the eye.
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Just as a hint? That's not "objective" (see #5), it's an "objection" (see #4).
Now you know and knowing is half the battle! 
"Striving for the impossible" doesn't mean "toiling in vain". It means growth. It means improvement in the direction of your ideals. Not futility.
Erfworld: the Battle for Gobwin Knob
Mainly played 42 shield/mace tank, plus beta 50 fire/shield scrapper.
Objective feedback:
I found that you really needed all 9 shield powers. You want tough and weave but with SOs, the end demands are impossible. My tank is currently running 40% ish end reduction in all my toggles and ST attacks, 80% in my AoEs and can still run himself out of end with a numinas unique and some other set help (but no miracle yet) and I don't have tough or weave. Needing all 9 powers also means I don't have the power picks to take the fighting pool.
Subjective feedback:
Teamed my tank with a shield scrapper in the twenties. Seemed wrong he was much tougher than I was as I had grant cover, but wasn't available to him yet.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
i actually impressed with my 50 shield/fire on live.
i didnt take the tier 9 but did take everything else.id say the build is solid.
however agreed that the end is horrible.i got a 3.40 recov and im STILL end heavy and i have sets in EVERY power but hasten
I guess you can file this under Subjective. I'm not a numbers guy, I'm a thirty-something that plays this game casually as time permits. I have been craving shields since day one (that I started playing four years ago). I love the look and customisation of the shield. However, the defense leaves a lot to be desired. Again, this is subjective, but it feels like it has almost all of the good from Willpower, but minus the regen. Now, I'm not suggesting you add regen, it really isn't part of the "feel" of shields. However, I would expect to survive more missions set on heroic than I do. It literally feels like I have the defense of a blaster sometimes. I guess I'm not much help here, because I don't have an idea to "fix" this, but I would be remiss if I didn't at least comment on it. I wish I had the same defense as those damn Spartans who are always yelling have. Maybe its the spear... 
EDIT: Oh yeah the endurance use is awful!
It's not a horrible set, but I definetly don't feel super. The endurance use is a PITA, and the layered defense just doesn't seem to work together all that well. I haven't taken a Shield anything past 28 yet, but so far most enemy types have enough defense debuff to put my defense in the negative. Also, the small radius of the AoE powers make it hard to actually get the max potential out of them.
I haven't gotten my shield tank to even 20 yet, so the only feedback I feel comfortable giving is this:
My character looks ludicrous with that dorky run animation (sorry BaBs), I look like I need baby powder cause I'm chaffing badly in some very uncomfortable places!
I feel better now for getting that off my chest.
The character in question is a Shield/Stone Melee Tank, when I'm running around with the shield and the stone mallet in hand I look OK. When I'm running around w/o the mallet, the right arm is held stiffly in a vertical position. The run animation just looks awkward to me. (Maybe if the right arm was bent a little more at the elbow it might be more visually appealing. *shrug*)
"I used to make diddly squat, but I've been with the company for 16 years and have had plenty of great raises. Now I just make squat" -- Me
Pediatric brain tumors are the #1 cause of cancer related deaths in children.
The set I find really incredibly fun, favorite scrapper secondary by far because it finally fills in the hole of having a character that can actually be in melee and help buff up his teammates too without having to be near death most of the time.
The end use I noticed was a little high, I was able to afford some good IOs and have taken care of that issue but I know many people that dont have that luxury are having issues with it.
I still dont fully understand why One with the Shield is a +res and +max hp buff instead of def and hp, since the set seems to get a lot more of its survivabitlity from the def portion. Most of the time the only reason I use the power is to boost my end recovery for the time its up for long battle stretches. When I have really needed the power, which is full slotted up with damage res and healing IOs to around 90% enhancement to both, it has done little to slow or stop me from dying since it only raises my resistance to medium level.
One thing that consistantly worries me about the set is that it will be massively nerfed because I am enjoying it so much and up till this point every time I like a set means its going to be nerfed in one issue or less...If this is the case please for the love of god stop releasing powers/power sets before you properly test them so we dont continue to get attached to them and the way they perform and suddenly have that completely altered to the point of near nonrecognition...I'm looking at you, Fiery Aura...
Dealt with shields somewhat on Gamenikki : http://www.gamenikki.com/g3/features/Jason.php?id=14
***
Now, I did try a shield tank on test... and hated it. Powers just didn't work out. However, now that I13 is out, I'm actually running a shield brute.
and after running the raw numbers, there isn't that much to complain about. I'm not really sure that one with the shield lives up to its strong resistance against all damage types.
I do wish that phalanx fighting had a larger range, but after running the numbers on the tank side, a shield tank is looking at a base positional defense value of 37% figuring 22.5% for AOE, Ranged, and Melee from the 15% native battle agility and deflection boosted up by 50%; then 15% from phalanx fighting with it's 5% per 3 targets.
That puts Shield tankers near the same amount of defense as an ice tanker gets against Smashing / Lethal with weave, and over the soft-defense cap if the shield tanker takes weave and combat jumping ... with better damage resistances than Ice to boot.
Right off hand then, I think Shield wound up being implemented in final in a good manner...
now if only Dark, Fire, and Ice will get the reworks that at least one of them has needed since Issue 5.
Hi, guys! Loving shield so far even if it is somewhat gimp compared to other sets. Anyways, here are my 2 influence.
Objective: I'm surprised I haven't seen this mentioned before and I'm not sure if there is an issue with this on the other weapon sets because I have only tried a broadsword/shield scrapper, but when using active defense the character puts his weapon away while he is activating the power and then draws it again afterwards. Now I have never been a fan of 'click to activate' mez defense, but I deal with it by sticking it on auto. When the power goes off It's a noticeable lapse in damage dealing as the weapon is sheated and then redrawn, also it's rather annoying when the power goes off at an inopportune time such as charging a Sky Raider engineer and trying to hit him before he can set his ff generator. That pause before striking can mean the difference between life or death.
Subjective: I LOVE shield rush. That has become one of my favorite powers. I giggle maniacally when I charge into a group of monkeys after hitting build up and they go flying and die!
Subjective: I miss not having a self heal, and gangs of baddies still manage to have enough -def to get me down to the point where most of their attacks hit their mark. My most successful teaming has been with a Dark defender that slots a lot of -acc into his powers. But it's sad to watch your life dwindle and know that if you run not only will you look like a sissy, but you'll leave the very small radius of your positional defense granted by phalanx and you'll most likely get splattered by a lowly minion with a machine gun. I miss checking my life and knowing that I've got one more surge of strength from a self-heal at least to fight a little while longer before succumbing to the masses.
I know I had more to relay, but for the moment I can't think of anything. If I come up with more I'll be back.
Infinity: Starbright, Little Darkstar, Fusion Meltdown, Thief
Objective : Shields have its primary mitigation on +defense with lesser values in +HP and +resistance. Given how prevalent -defense effects are in game the set needs a stronger resistance to these effects.
All other tank primaries possess some way to boost/refill their green bar. Combine this with how easy it is to get a defense cascade failure, the set can be very unforgiving.
A source of regen even a small one could go a long ways to bringing the set in line with other primaries.
Take a look Here and Here.
Using the example of 100 attacks incoming the Shields character rather glaringly underperforms in his primary purpose compared to the Energy aura character. That doesn't include end usage or other abilities, however.
As has been stated previously Broadsword/shields is a wonderful pairing thanks to Parry, though Katana has a nearly identical power as well, it's not nearly as popular due to it's strange appearance.
That said: I like shields as it stands. It has nice defense without being Super Reflexes for tanks and the damage resistance and +HP really help me a lot (50 shield/SS tank on Test, haven't gone live yet)
I don't feel the End hit -too- terribly until my rage-crash. But even then it can be mitigated by slotting for End in attacks as well as defensives. Teaming with a Kinetics or High Level Empath, however, will obliterate your endurance issues utterly.
-Rachel-
Subjective
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My character looks ludicrous with that dorky run animation (sorry BaBs), I look like I need baby powder cause I'm chaffing badly in some very uncomfortable places!
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Perfect!
In the lower levels on a Brute, it is squishy as heck.
The end drain is way too high.
Emotes need to work with the shield active.
The character creator screen will only show round shield and weapon at the same time. If you use a non round shield, you can see the weapon OR the Shield, not both.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
I love the look of Shields and generally, I like the powers. BUT when playing the set I keep having this Castle quote stuck in my mind:
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Energy Aura has had a poor reputation from the start, and while it is "balanced" with the other protective powersets using the original metrics, it has been shown that those metrics did not take certain key factors into consideration - namely Regeneration and Healing effects. Energy Aura lacked any sort of mechanic which could increase the Health or Regeneration Rate of the character, and did it have any active method of restoring Health to the character using these powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
From the Issue 13 PvE changes thread.
This is what this set needs. Just some small way to restore health. Better a small heal like EA, than regen. Regen is getting a bit overused.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
First off kudos for the massive amount of work needed to get shields into the game & the graphics which are simply awesome.
The look this set brings has been enough to re-invigorate my playing of CoH (yeah, I'm a costume [censored] 
).
I'm not so comfortable about the actual performance though. I feel like I've got the best of it early on and the later levels are either group focused or an every so often click.
I like the group idea but I think its too much of my upper level performance. Personally I'd like to see the two group ones combined or see more individual benefit from them.
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This is what this set needs. Just some small way to restore health. Better a small heal like EA, than regen. Regen is getting a bit overused.
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I agree that this set could have used a heal of some kind, especially given that shields has an ideal thematic way to do so. I'd have loved the ability to "hunker down" behind my shield and activate a hibernate like power; + res or def rather than invul.
===================================
The words you scribbled on the walls
the loss of friends you didn't have
I'll call you when the time is right
I haven't played up a Shield character high enough to experience every single power, but from what I have experienced, and from what I've seen on the numbers listed in-game, the set is kind of lacking compared to other armor sets. Particularly for Tankers.
I believe there are 3 main problems for this.
1. Phalanx Fighting.
While a good idea, in practice you're not that likely to have teammates that close to you for a long enough time that the defense bonus is viable. Squishies prefer to stay clear of the heart of the battle, and scrappers tend to be all over the place. Other Tankers may stick together, but there's also the fact that you and they are going to be surrounded by baddies, meaning there's not really enough room for teammates to fit in the radius well. And without the extra defense provided by this power, you're left with just a measly 15% total defense.
A solution would be to slightly increase the effect radius, so that the power is more likely to catch allies in it.
2. Defense Resistance.
The amount of Defense DeBuff Resistance is somwhat low, second only to Willpower (which doesn't rely on defense all that strongly). It hould be at least brought up to match the other sets.
And 3. One With the Shield.
As far as tier 9 powers go, this one is fairly underwhelming. It provides a moderate buff to Max HP and Endurance Recovery, grants powerful mez protection, and gives enough Damage Resistance to... bring the set up to par with Invulnerability?
That's not right. With OWtS active, L50 unslotted, the set has a total of 45% Resistance to Smashing/Lethal, 30% Resistance to everything else except Psionic, and 15% positional defense (without any allies in PF's radius).
Invulnerability has 45% Resistance to Smashing/Lethal, 20% Resistance to everything else but Psionics, and 10% Defense to everything but Psionics. And this is without Unstoppable active.
So with the tier 9 active, the set overall only has 10% more Resistance and 5% more Defense than Invul? Once again, that's not right. It basically makes you an Invul with extra Max HP, Endurance Recovery, and mez protection.
And it only provides slightly more protection than some of the other sets.
Solutions to this? Well, to start, give it a decent self-heal in addition to that Max HP boost. The power doesn't really provide that much extra protection, and the set lacks a means of regaining HP, so if you start getting your butt kicked enough to need to use the power, it at least restores some of your HP so you don't die right away.
Secondly, have it provide some Defense in addition to Resistance. Perhaps about 15% or so. Since the set overall relies on both Def and Res, the tier 9 should buff both, not just Res.
Other than that, I actually do find the set pretty fun. It's just sort of weak compared to the others.
Two wrongs don't make a right. However, three rights make a left.
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Seek. Find. Rularuu.
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I have a Bruser the sheild/Mace
Objective: As others have said the Damage resistance and Def bonus are pretty much removed by enemies Debuffs. I have noticed the End drain seems a little high. As a Bruser/Tank the defnse benifits/cost ratio is a bit off My Invulnerabilty/Str Tank never had this much endurance drain.
Subject: I love the sewer cover shield and the circular energy shield.
shields are crappy, but they would have cool if you could throw them ( see Capt. America). However, the power set was a waste of time. The fact if you dont have Stone tank you pretty much don't have anything special as tank. I have two levl 50 tanks. A invon. tand and a dual blade will power but i find they really are not as usefull to a team like a stone especially the invon. tank. I don't even play my Invon any more because the devs made the baddies so tough at levl 50 that even with purples and regen sets jacked up your tank will break. I think these toons should be reclassified as some sort of brute type hero and given better offence damage powers. The only real tanks are stoners. As for scrappers they are all about the same.
My only beef with shields is the End drain. I got my shield/ss to 50 on test and i never felt a need for tough or weave or maneuvers. (my 2nd build has all three). I'm used to playing squishies and shields is for sure not as squishy as people are complaining it is (with my play-style: mainly solo or duo). Conceptualy, holding up a shield might be tiresome, but c'mon you'd think a super hero would have a shield made out of something sweet that is feather weight and should cost little endurance to wield.
Objective Feedback (provable facts): I like the look of the shield. I dislike how well my toon performs from a defensive perspective. Sorry but that's a provable fact, I do, in fact, dislike how it performs.
Subjective Feedback:
Endurance: I've finally managed to get my toon capable of beating down 1 mob, during a solo paper mission, without running completely out of endurance. WOOT! I still have to rest now and then. What a pain.
Defense: What defense? Where? I've got tough and weave, but apparently they were just to help further my endurance issues, because they sure are not helping me survive. Lethal/Smash is still kicking me around like a paper doll. My ice/rad has better dmg mitigation with holds than this guy has in defense.
In all, I think i've decided to shelve this shields toon for now.
It's just too annoying when I have so many other toons that provide the "fun" that I seek. Honestly, I had more fun leveling AR/Traps! lol Well, at least that was before the Vomit Nerf.
I hope they fix this set soon. I was so looking forward to shields. 
-mouse
looking through this, it seems like my original assessment on Gamenikki in regards to shields just not being that good on test holding up on Live servers.
I think a similar event has occurred with shields that occurred with one of the villain armors, and Evil Gecko already brought this up on page two referencing castle.
The raw defense numbers for Shield on a Tank can add up to be very good as long as 3 team-mates are in range of Phalanx Fighting and all defensive powers are capped into ED.
However, raw defense is never the whole story. As I understand the accuracy system there is always a 5% change an attack will miss, no matter what, and a 5% change an attack will hit, no matter what.
One of the big issues with my ice tank is that anything that is able to hit through my defense hits for full damage. The fix of course is to add in some resistance to Pointless Permafrost fixing the major glaring weakness.
Shield is in a similar boat. For an aggro gathering power-set, it has no heals and low resistance. The result is that in realistic gameplay, it just doesn't hold up as well as the numbers indicate it should.
My personal take on fixing shields remains the same... let Grant Cover work on the caster. That change alone will make shields more valuable earlier in their levels, and make them credible fighters at high levels.
I'd also not be adverse to the true grit power gaining a regeneration rate boost and loosing the overall health... something along the lines of : Less Attacks hit you with your shield active, and those wounds you take are minor and heal quickly.
(Fire/Shield Brute) I decided to wrestle this toon into performing the way it should - or at least try. Because - dangit, I want a shields toon!
Endurance: Got the Mayhem End Increase Temp. Got the Increase Recovery Empowerment Buff, 3 slotted stamina, and my alt /RAD to follow me around and auto/heal/AM. The result: I still have to stop and recover endurance from time to time - though obviously less downtime. Though, can you believe I'm still running my endurance down to "Empty" after any mob containing more than 4 baddies. My attacks even have "2" EndRedux slotted in each, My AAO has an end redux, my tough and weave each have end redux.
This leaves me with two options:
1.) I'm so retarded I've slotted Attack Rate SO's instead of end reduxs. Uhmhum.. yea..
2.) This toon is massively endurance heavy.
Defense/Resistance: So, I have your basic all SO build, with tough and weave. Still getting slammed by lethal/smash, by even 'Council' - the most retarded baddies in-game. So - to counter, I leveled to get more slots in tough/weave. It's now 4 slots each, with 3def/1end and 3res/1end. Then I removed one of those SO's and threw in the steadfast 3% def IO. Result: This has helped bring up my defense to smash/lethal enough where I don't fall over like a paper-doll against council. It is decidedly much better at this point. However, this was Council papers set to relent, padded to 4 mates. Impressive.. for me. When I went to solo a tsoo mission, unpadded team, on relent, and I was toasted by the tsoo boss. Tried it on Carnies, and well, with no psi defense, turned out to be instant death. Tried COT, and was so ToHitDeBuffed that my endurance wouldn't allow me to continue to fight the mission - gave up on it.
So in the end, even if I manage to ramp this guy up as best I can possibly do (with my albeit limited skills) - I can't get this guy to work if the opposing class can either;
a.) Suck my endurance away. b.) Is very accurate with lethal/smash. c.) Can -speed me. d.) Can -ToHit me. or e.) Can do Psi Dmg.
That leaves me doing council paper missions?
I think it's all got to do with putting all the marbles in melee/range/aoe. That just doesn't seem to work for me.
Ok, ok, I'll grant you I'm retarded. All of my issues are probably just me. Take it or leave - I AM trying to help by providing my honest feedback. (albeit lacking in any qualitative or quantitative data - sorry) 
-mouse
Use the following topic to discuss Issue 13's Shields.
<ul type="square">[*] Heft a Shield for Heroic or Villainous Ends! This new powerset brings a classic power to City of Heroes: Shields! Now, you can arm Tankers, Scrappers and Brutes with a powerful shield to protect themselves and their allies.[*] Additional Shields Discussion[/list]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Feedback is important to our development process, there are two types of feedback and both are helpful although some give us more insight and are more easily adapted into game changes.
Objective Feedback: Objective feedback is based upon what you as a user see or experience that other users may also see and experience. This feedback usually can be replicated easily as it involves facts and unbiased opinions. Example: When using the base editor items are sometimes getting caught in columns or pillars.
Subjective Feedback: Subjective feedback is based upon how you feel or experience the game as yourself. This experience may not necessarily be replicated because it is based on feeling and emotion. Subjective feedback is important to us but it is usually helpful if more information is present to describe what and why you feel the way you do. Example: I like the way the graphics look on my shield animation it gives me the feeling of being truly super-powered.
Are you reporting a bug from Issue 13? Please use this thread to report bugs, there is a format in the OP that you can follow to help you in your reporting. Issue 13: BUGS