Live Feedback: Issue 13 : New Power Sets: Shields
By
CaptA,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 19:12 in Developers' Corner
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Objective : Shields have its primary mitigation on +defense with lesser values in +HP and +resistance. Given how prevalent -defense effects are in game the set needs a stronger resistance to these effects.
All other tank primaries possess some way to boost/refill their green bar. Combine this with how easy it is to get a defense cascade failure, the set can be very unforgiving.
A source of regen even a small one could go a long ways to bringing the set in line with other primaries.
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I've also noticed I sometimes desperately need Respites.
maybe instead of dipping into regen, or flat out canceling -Def effects, it needs a way to put a cap on that cascade effect itself? and add survivability to the low-HP moments.
What about ramping up Def as your HP drops? Kind of like the Resistance from Widow's Foresight.
Then, even if your HP is dropping because of -Def that's added up on you, you compensate with new Def. (or you could counter with more -Def protection as your HP drops, but I figure direct Def is more generally useful.)
I guess the idea is: don't regenerate from it, roll with it. You may weaken, but your shield won't. Perhaps that theme fits into Grant Cover giving yourself some Def when you most need it?
Well I've stated my opinion about the set earlier in this thread, but haven reached level 39 and having played around with One With The Shield, I can't tell you how disappointed I am with it. I really don't feel it helps me survive much at all for a tier 9 power, especially compared to other tier 9's. I really hoped this is looked at in the near future, along with endurance cost.
Another quick thing that bugs me as well is the taunt effect of Against All Odds. I can't even run it when playing on a team, the aggro it draws is incredible. It's ok obviously when I solo or even duo, but you get on a team of 4 or more and you will take a beat down I promise you.
Note, these are the comments of one who has only played solo thus far.
Objective: End use is high even soloing. And the Mez/knockback resistance being a clickie instead of a toggle is a pain in the butt.
Subjective: I like the look of shields. But for the look, one could have added a Shields Pool Power set that would have given every AT access to shields plus some benefits.
Subjective:
(1) I like the idea of sheilds as a pool power, I keep wanting to have a defender with a sheild, it just makes sense in my head.
(2) Shield powers without a melee weapon just look funky. I know that would also be the case for sheilds/defenders as they have no melee, but it would look better to be crouched behind a sheild shooting a gun or blasting a fireball than PUNCHING at the enemy! That just looks aweful.
(3) For the elemental shields . . . the shield looks awesome but there is generally no armor set to match. This makes the sheild really stand out unless you take the matching armor set, which is . . . wait a second . . . also in the same set of primary/secondary power slots, and thus unavailable with the shields!
Hey all,Had an idea for shields in pve atleast to have some kinda of +endurence in a power. Was thinking shield charge because its pbaoe and as you hit you could maybe drain their end and it come to you.I really like shields but would love some + end in a power.Yea theres one with the shield but it wares off then i really have no end. Please consider this or any similiar idea its only a PvE request,thank you.
Having taken a Shield Tanker to 34, I'll comment on what I've noticed...
The 15% base defense seems low intially, compared to Super Reflexes, but combined with the resistances, it does quite well early on. However, I think this is a set that really does better with set IOs, for extra defense, endurance recovery, and regeneration (or just extra hitpoints).
Along those lines, I think that One With the Shield is a bit weak as a tier 9, as the resistances are only 15%, except for the 30% for smash/lethal, and the extra health, though nice, doesn't do a lot for the power, simply because if you're low on health, hit One With the Shield as a panic button (which tier 9s tend to be used as), you don't get additional hitpoints.
I'd say that One With the Shield could use a heal, to go along with the hitpoint buff, sort of a tier 9 version of Dull Pain. As it stands, it's the only Tanker set that offers no healing (Willpower has significant regen, instead), and is vulnerable to continuous damage that it can't defend against.
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Peppermint Cat-- Lv50 Mewtant Ice/Eng Bls
Objective: Dunno.
Subjective: I'm loving my Martial Arts/Shield Scrapper. This is my first scrapper, and I feel deadly and resilient. It's quite a change of pace from Controllers and Blasters.
Specifically, I'm having a love affair with Against All Odds. As soon as the tank taunts, I jump on a boss, turn on Focus Chi and proceed to unleash my attack chain.
Overall, I'm enjoying the new set and my first scrapper.
The set is a tribute to mediocrity,fits in very well with this issue.Now excuse me I have a toon to delete.
Objective- The most annoying issue i have with the shield set so far is that i cannot do the Chicken emote when i have a shield drawn. Its a problem because the character and costume are chicken themed. I hope this gets fixed immediately. I've haven't gotten this toon leveled up enough et, but i'm pretty certain that Grant Cover is going to be useless, and so will Battle Agility, at least for me. Phalanx fighting could possibly prove useless to me, but i'm going to give it a shot. We'll see as i level how that all works out.
Subjective - I rolled both an Energy Melee/ Dark Armor brute and this Super Strength/ Shield brute at about the same time. They're pretty close in level right now. While endurance is an issue on the shield brute, it is absolutely nowhere near as bad as the em/dark. The other two brutes, which i've gotten to 50, are a Dark/Elec and Elec/Fire and they don't give me endurance problems at all, but they have end recovery powers. In fact, the Dark/Elec doesnt even have the fitness pool and only gives me a problem if i'm running all eight toggles instead of just the five i normally use. I think the inability of a shield brute to go from mob to mob without resting is what people are worked up about. I would be nice if Against All Odds gave you a regen/recovery bonus for every baddie within range on top of the damage increase. It would have to be substantial though, none of this 5% garbage like the 'fix' for Energy Aura. And if Active Defense had a >25% heal upon activation, i'm sure if would make a big difference in playability without overpowering the set. Another big issue is OWtS needing to be reworked. I'd suggest perhaps a 20% Defense addition to it, and allowing recharge enhancements. But then again, that is a power i havent gotten to yet, im just looking at the numbers.
In the end, i think so far that its not a bad set and i can't wait to get into the lvl 40's with it. I think that people need to realize that its not a Defense based set like Energy Aura, and it's not as squishy or end heavy as Dark Armor. Shields has its place in the game, but it just needs its few little tweaks. I think I suggested a couple good places to start. Until that day comes, i'm just going to have fun with it my way.
I have made three shield users- the scrappers use too much end - can barely end a fight plying solo if there is more than 3 foes. The brute version seems marginally better but he is only half of the scrappers lvs. Might delete them all soon as other scrapper power sets seem better.
Thus far my only complaint regarding the new powersets is that the Status Protection for Shields is a click Power (Super Reflexes has it too...not fond of it there either). Never understood this because it can seriously leave a hole in the set's defenses if the character is hit with enough Slow to open a recharge window. To me this defeats the purpose of a defensive set.
However, on the plus side the options for the Shield grapics are way cool, the other powers are good (Shield Rush is gonna be fun when I get it...) and Pain Dom is a MM's dream.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
I have been leveling up this MA/Shd scrapper in teams only with a 3 to 8 man team usually.
Being in a Pact (to also test that), it is slow going.
Problems I have experienced with this so far.
Extreme heavy end usuage even after stamina. Needing to rest after every mob or using only two smallest attacks to maintain the shields.
Last night put in Sets in all attacks.
Now average 46% End Reduction in all attacks with one as high as 78 % End Reduction (Frankenslotting).
Single End Reduction lvl 35 IO in three of the Toggle Shield defenses.
I have the ability to go through two mobs without needing to rest.
Granted:
MA is a fast acting set and End Heavy as well.
Still End drain is approx. 25% too high for this set considering it's lower values of protection vs other scrapper secondaries.
Damage mitigation on this set also appears low. Defense values are being slashed by mob with -Def (and there are quite a few that have -Def). Causing the set to compare as weak to other secondaries.
When comparing the working of any sets, one should not have to factor in 'using inspirations'. Shield Defense requires the usage of inspirations as a survival technique more than a convenience factor.
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Objective Feedback: Well, I've noticed that in the Tailor, you have the option to make the shield reinforced. Which makes the inside a different color than the outside edge. But on Round Shields, it doesn't work and the whole shield turns one color. It would be awesome if I could have the two tone effect. I'm working on a themed set of costumes. 
(I'm not sure if this is a bug, or if this is just an error with my game, but it's been bothering me)
Subjective Feedback: I've played a Martial Arts/Shields scrapper all the way to 42 and I've loved it. My only complaint is that it is a tad bit end heavy. I've also found that the defense is a little iffy, but It will probably be way better with Set IO's in there at 50. I also would like to say that Shield Charge is a freakin' awesome attack and that it's like candy to me. Run in, Focus Chi, Dragon's Tail, and Shield Charge in place(To get the damage bonus from AAO of course). Oh But this is either after the tank has aggroed the mob, or I've popped a few luck's. 
Only other thing is not being able to do emotes while holding the shield. I'm assuming this is because it is a "weapon" type thing, only coming out when the power is being used. So that's understandable. Oh, and if you do the emote /e flipcoin while your shield is out, your character does this weird hand thing.
EDIT: Ooo! Idea! I know that changing the One With Shield could be kind of weird, but since everyone is complaining about the endurance problem, and the defense problem, you could turn it into a sort of Energy Absorption power like in Ice Armor. Actually, just like Ice Armor. You get endurance from the number of enemies around you, as well as increasing your defense. I don't know. But it just suddenly hit me. It's late... well by now, early so I'm just popping of fireworks in my head.
Enjoy.
RAWR.
:3
Member of Operation Unlimited Justice!
You only wish you were this epic.
10 Drop Ships taken down.
tanks without heals. bah. focused accuracy nerf. bah. 30 limit in th salvage racks. bah.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
<thanks for giving brutes FA btw>
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
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tanks without heals. bah. focused accuracy nerf. bah. 30 limit in th salvage racks. bah.
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<thanks for giving brutes FA btw>
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These have what to do with Shields, exactly?
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
tanks without heals = shield tanks.
If you deleted the heal component from say, Hoarfrost, so that it only granted +HP, it would be a pretty crippled power.
Yet OneWithTheShield and Frostwork do this very thing, making them also... Let's just say, not nearly effective as they could be.
There is no +regen in the set to fall back on.
These buffs all have long recharge times on them, it's not like people are going to be spamming them like they were empaths.
So, people get Aid Self, which I'm told the designers also do not like us doing.
I don't know what the designers are trying to say with all this.
Ice armor is great vs cold attacks, Fiery aura is great vs fire attacks, Willpower is great against psionic, but there doesn't seem to be any particular attack or enemy that shields are good against.
It seems rational to desire to survive most fights as an armored melee, I cannot see why Shields are so undesired to make survivable.
Event: Disaster: Low Health.
Ice Armor: Hibernate: Good chance of surviving disaster
Shield Defense: Use inspirations
Maybe they really should make shields a costume option or pool power, an ice shield would look pretty nice on an ice/ice tanker.
the designers dont like sheild tanks getting aid self? whats wrong with this picture? you mean to tell me that the designers of this game put a power in that they dont want us to use. an interruptible power that has very little effectiveness in battle that I chose in an atempt to make my shield brute a bit more survivable - omg.... heh.. cap, brutes can get Focused acc now. im grateful that they can, just not grateful for the nerf. not grateful for the salvage rack limit either, makes organising all that buff salvage alot more tasking... so... it has alot to do with tanks, brutes and the likes IMHO
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
I suppose these observations are anecdotal at best. I did not realize I needed to take notes or make exacting statements on performance. Still, I'm very annoyed.
I have direct experience with an Axe/Shield Brute up to level 31, but I've been playing a lot Hero-side with my more typical Defenders, Controllers and Blasters, and almost everyone I regularly team with has made (and in many cases have deleted) Shield scrappers and tanks.
My general observation is that Shield characters, lacking any buffs, just aren't very survivable. Get on a team without a defender, controller or corrupter, but with a shield toon, and that toon will spent a large amount of time at very low levels of health. I've been on teams where am equal level shield tank has asked a Fire Armor scrapper to take alphas. I know at least one veteran player who slotted his shield scrapper for recharge Rest, to make low levels tolerable.
On a large outdoor map with hordes of Council mobs (and therefore hordes of Defense debuffs), I had the opportunity to watch same-level Shields, Willpower and Fire armor scrappers in various aggro-taking situations. Willpower would take the alpha and lose a big chunk of hit points but heal them as the fight progressed. Fire would take an alpha and perhaps the second attack from a spawn before the player hit healing flames. By that point, enough of the mobs would be gone that fire's resists were enough to credibly deal with whatever was left. The shields scrapper would basically either die or spent every moment after that first attack at extremely low health. Granted that there were defense debuffs, but even gulping two purple inspirations didn't seem to be making much difference in his favor.
I've also observed a willpower brute two levels lower than my shield brute having much better defensive capabilities and survivability in almost every scenario where we were teamed; his green bar didn't move as much vs. Rikti, Warriors, Freaks or Arachnos while I spent large amounts of time at 40% or less health. There was literally no situation where my shields were a better proposition than whatever willpower was doing for him. It just didn't happen. If he was getting hurt, I seemed to be getting hurt a lot worse.
I'm not normally all that much of a melee player, but after hearing that shields was also a heavy end user, I chose to slot my attacks for at least 50% end reduction. If I don't run my taunt aura, I'm generally fine. With the aura running, the blue bar goes quickly. In my limited experience with melee toons, this seems to be a facet of every set with a taunt aura. I'm not sure that it's a reason to complain.
However, I do feel that Shields should at least be good at something, and with a substantial amount of play-time with or on Shields characters, I really have yet to see what that something is. Given buffs from a Defender, Controller or Corrupter, Shields is fine (fine, but not GODLY). Given enough Purple insps, or a tray of greens, and it is tolerable. But I really have yet to see any Shields character stand on its own feet without those things and perform as well as even a Fire Armor character.
Things I hate: Anime. PvP. Lying MMO Developers. Outleveling content. Manga. ED. Comic Store Employees. Anime.
Mostly subjective.
I have an axe/shield brute at level 20, which is still pretty young. But I'm noticing a lot of what other folks are saying: low survivability, huge end drain. Which might work for a scrapper, I suppose, but on a brute, who relies on running around at mid-high fury? Eh.
It sure looks nice, but so far it's felt weaker and less useful than dark armor, fiery armor, regeneration, super reflexes, and willpower (I haven't tried the other defenses).
I'm still plugging away at it, mainly due to looks, but the fun factor is fading.
Oh, I should say that I really _don't_ want shields to get regeneration or more health or whatnot -- that's just ... weird for a shield set.
I'd much prefer more of what shields already have; raise the values, lower the end cost, increase the power of AAO, etc. I like what shields does, for the most part, but other sets do most of what shield does, better, plus a lot of very useful other stuff.
If the shield's strength is supposed to be primarily in helping the team, let us know that we shouldn't expect decent personal defense.
Shields and why they still suck...
Been playing and playing shields, hoping there was just something I am missing, but sadly they need work.
1) Defense is not enough, it is barely above SR passives, and they have scaling damage resists.
2) Damage resist sucks - First why no psionic protection? You have a shield that could have tinfoil on it right? 20% damage resist is lower than Blaster epic Damage resists, that is really sad and scary.
3) Toggles are on SR level with even the PB style recharge, and you eat blue like gargamel's cat.
4) Aura/Dam Bonus - This was a joke right? A damage bonus that is useless on brutes, and so tiny on tanks it is only good for an area taunt. Popping one small red is several times the bonus, wow, that is insane. (Even add a bit more damage and some tohit bonus to make it worth something)
5) Locked recharge on better damage resists (that still cap horribly). Why lock the recharge on a much needed power. On Willpower the lock makes sense, on shields when the power is actually needed to survive is somewhat crazy.
6) Team bonuses - nice, but when all your teammates know you are going to die quick, why would they want to stand close to you? Especially for a few % of defense. You need a higher defense number on this without team members around, so it is better than 4% on brutes when they are alone and makes combat jumping look like a uber defense power.
If you notice builds, people are adding in tough and weave just to survive - again more toggles, and powers that were designed for non-defensive builds. There is no reason a brute or tank should have to get tough and weave just to survive 3 or 4 NPCs when solo, let alone trying to manage a room of aggro and dying rather quickly...
I hope you are still looking at Shields, as the concept was great and the charge damage is nice, but it needs a bit of adjusting to keep players alive and some more thought into using the shield to help defend other teammates - like more defense and a larger radius.
Currently on my shield brute (not 50 yet, but getting up there) im looking at HAVING to have Boxing / Tough / Weave / Aid Other / Aid Self / Combat Jumping / Maneuvers.
SEVEN power pool abilities, and yet I'm still looking at around 600mil (im more of a casual player, its going to take me a long long time to make up that money), in IO set bonuses just to get myself within 5% of the softcaps. If this game is supposedly set around SO's, why am I so soft compared to the other brute sets with shield?
I love the look concept and basic playstyle so I'm sticking with it, but I have to admit, I'm very disappointed in the way its turning out with survivablility atm. =(
Based on a level 44 BS/Shields scrapper
Objective:
The shields set seems very weak at lower levels. I did not concern myself much with it because (1) I was low level and (2) I'm a scrapper and should not be able to tank. At higher levels, particularly after gaining shield charge, the shields set is probably on par with other sets if played towards its strengths.
On that note, while many posts in this thread are about how shields underperforms compared to other defense sets, remember that shields primary strength is offense. Just like Firey Armor was weak compared to other resist-based sets due to its offensive nature, Shields also trades much of its damage mitigation for damage dealing. And therein lies its strength. I can "tank" as well as any other scrapper I've played (and I've played every other scrapper secondary) not because of the defense, but because I can kill things fast enough that they don't have time to hurt me. Yes, I see regular cascade failures, and have problems with widely spaced groups, but these are taken care of with inspirations. Certain enemy groups are very difficult to fight (e.g. nemesis) but that would be the same for any set.
On the negative side, the endurance usage of the set is horrendous. Stamina won't even touch this monster... we're talking about as bad as DA if not worse, and that's without a 33 end/use heal. I'm hoping that careful IO slotting will take care of the problems (I'm still using SOs at 44).
Subjective:
Shields are cool. I love all the different costume options. I just wish they weren't so darn tiring to carry.
There are no hard iTrials, only hard peo-... er... wait.
This is about appearance rather than performance- so far my FM/SH scrap has had no problems, esp. when running w/a friend's pacted SH/Ice tank- but we're also only in mid-levels, so that could change.
The late addition of the energy, dark, and a few other shield types was way cool. Can we please revisit the fire shield, and get one that looks like...you know...fire? Instead of a hot rock, or burning piece of plywood, or whatever it is? Nice, translucent, animated flames? An arcane shield, similar to dark but w/swirling runes would be cool (this was mentioned elsewhere by someone else as an aura option, and it's a great idea). So would a bone shield for all those demonic types- either a cluster of bones embedded in metal or something, or a big ribcage w/a handle.
Things to remember:
-Common sense ain't;
-Overkill is the only kill;
-If someone asks if you're a god, run away.
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Objective : Shields have its primary mitigation on +defense with lesser values in +HP and +resistance. Given how prevalent -defense effects are in game the set needs a stronger resistance to these effects.
All other tank primaries possess some way to boost/refill their green bar. Combine this with how easy it is to get a defense cascade failure, the set can be very unforgiving.
A source of regen even a small one could go a long ways to bringing the set in line with other primaries.
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Seconding this post especally the first paragraph.