Discussion: Forum Rules Revision
By
Absinth_Incubus,
Posted on: 2008-07-21 13:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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We should just be grateful that Koschej doesn't spell it 'behaviour.'
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Which is a perfectly valid spelling of the word.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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No necro-posting. Necro-posting is responding to an old discussion thread and is just a form of 'bumping.' One can bring up an old topic by starting a new thread and linking to the old discussion.
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Errr, why? If somebody has something new to add, why start another topic instead of just posting in the existing topic? Posting in the existing topic makes it easier for people to see what has been said before. Come to think of it, that's particularly true in the Guides forum. If something in the game changes a few months after the guide is posted that warrents a small change to the guide, wouldn't it be better to just tack on a new post to the thread instead of doing the whole guide over again?
Now, of course, if somebody is just dredging a thread up to hash out the same ideas all over again, then I wish they wouldn't add to the thread OR start another thread.
[/ QUOTE ]There should be a cut off on the necro-posting if not then it appears like something is going on but it really isnt. I know some folks necroed some stuff that looked like x powerset got nerfed or was getting nerfed. All it does is cause more confusion on the forums. What I would like to see is if no one says anything else and it has been more than 6 months the thread needs to auto close. Most old necro threads dont get purged due to developer respones still being in them so this would be a good idea to keep the confusion down.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Was this just something that needed updating recently or have their been events happening that made you all sit down and go over what needed to be clarified better or added to?
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This has been a project on the table for a while, once Niviene and I started, it was a task that I took on myself to push through and get up as fast as possible. I looked at what we had and tried to work out the most manageable rules possible, and tried to apply clarification on where it was seen to be needed.
This was also not a one man project, I had input from a lot of sources on this, as well as from my personal observations of what was happening on the forums.
Going back to the /signed issue.
I think in this case the question of "Are we going to heavily moderate this"
The answer, probably not. If all you can think of or feel adds to the discussion is /signed, then it will probably be allowed.
The issue is if someone goes around to every idea in a section or across the boards and /signed on all of them. The question then becomes is it a genuine agreement or an non-constructive thread bump.
If it's a genuine agreement, it doesn't detract from the thread there is a good chance we are going to leave it alone. But if it looks like the behavior is prevalent, we may take steps. It all comes down to the constructive nature.
Koschej
Community Moderator
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
Slightly off topic but could help with the discusion, how come none of the newer mods post dont show up in the dev digest or community one?
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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All I'm going to say is--if you (the Mods and Community Managers) are going to step up the rules and expect us to abide by them, then I think we as the players deserve some sort of commitment from red names to commit to this decision as well.
The sheer number of times I go to report a thread and it says, "The moderators..." and I see it there a week later... *shrugs*
Also, as has been mentioned, there are specific groups of people with their own forums that are encouraged to act in ways that already break the forum rules. This isn't a whine, this is a fact. If the moderators are participating in, oh say, a discussion involving x-rated material with pictures...what are we supposed to do?
Again, I recognize that this is your sandbox, and you have your rules. I don't mind following them if you don't mind enforcing them.
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Exactly. The only problem I've ever had with the moderation on this forum is consistency.
I have no problem following the rules, whatever you decide the rules are going to be. This forum is afterall the property of NCSoft, not a public place. However, the problem is that often times I see posts/threads locked/deleted that are perhaps slightly rude whereas entire threads full of insults and vitriol have been ignored. It's even worse when I try to report the posts only to find out that almost every single post in the thread has been reported. Then a week later I see that same thread still there, completely unmoderated.
And when I PM a Redname about this thread I get a read receipt but nothing happens to said thread. Then I see people get warnings or bans for completely inoccuous posts, while said thread full of vitriol, flames and outright insults is allowed to continue for weeks.
Consistency. If it's not ok for me to break rule X, then it needs to not be ok for others to break rule X. And "we're only human and we can't see everything" just isn't an excuse when said thread remains at the top of the forum for weeks with every single post having been reported and the mods having received multiple PMs about it.
Personally I am glad to see that the forum moderation staff is being increased. And I say this as someone who's received a temp ban for my posts. I'd really like this forum to become a nicer and friendlier place to post. In order for that to actually happen though the rules need to apply to everyone equally. My experience up to this point is that for whatever reason that has not been the case.
So according to the rules I couldn't post good news concerning a petition I made about a bug that I got
from customer Support? Right?
S.thug ((level 50 Invul/ss tank Pinnacle))
Wild Childs ((Level 50 Nin/SR Stalker. Virtue))
Quote="Not Racist. Not violent. Just choosing to no longer be silent."
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Slightly off topic but could help with the discusion, how come none of the newer mods post dont show up in the dev digest or community one?
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A lot of our posts are moderation posts, and we do tend to post more than most other red names. Also as moderators, we will rarely post official announcements, and if we do, we will post them in the announcement section. As such, were we included we'd pretty much end up spamming those digests with nothing more than our moderation responses say to locked threads or warning messages that attempt to steer threads back onto track. As such it was felt that those would not be viable or good posts to have show up in the digests.
However it was brought up, by Turbo-Ski I believe, that there should be a mod-digest, and this is an idea that while I am not averse to, and which will probably not happen, that I find appealing.
Koschej
Community Moderator
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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If it's a genuine agreement, it doesn't detract from the thread there is a good chance we are going to leave it alone. But if it looks like the behavior is prevalent, we may take steps. It all comes down to the constructive nature.
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So once again we're back to the whim of whoever happens to glance at the post? This is how we end up with inconsistency in moderation. Rules should, in my opinion, be rules rather than guidelines for when the moderation staff might do something if they decide to.
If I post a string of profanity there should be a list someplace stating which words are profane and cause for moderation. If I /signed a post then either that should be allowed or not allowed. I don't see a reason why it's impractical to draw a line in the proverbial sand and state "This is the line. Do not cross it." without having to resort to qualifications and personal judgments for many of these rules.
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Out of curiosity, why do posts (not threads) need to be 'constructive' as long as they are on-topic to the thread and not inflammatory?
Sometimes you just want to show support, or make a little joke.
We're not developers or other such officials, and these boards aren't designed for that purpose... we're just users who all play the same game... a friendly community in this case is much more necessary that a constructive one...
I can understand not wanted an entire thread of "/signed" and "I agree."s but I've never actually seen that happen... we as a general rule don't have problems with spam or lack of discussion...
The CoH community is in general a friendly and fun place to be, don't remove that just because it's not "constructive".
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I think it's important that, more likely, mods don't want threads to be "DEstructive". In other words, threads showing support, adding to a civilized discussion, offering constructive criticism, a civilized debate of a topic, etc. are valid posts. Posts that attack other posters, rants without any constructive criticism, "lobbying" (thanks Zombie_Man), etc. are example of destructive posts. They are either meant to make a scene, derail topics, or just start bad topics/ flaming/ trolling altogether.
For example: discussing what you did during Double XP weekend is a good post. Having a civilized discussion about the faults of Double XP weekend is also good post. Starting a thread demanding answers from the devs on why Double XP weekend was awful is not a good post. The former two are community-building and/ or constructive, while the latter is a deconstructive rant that probably offers little constructive feedback.
Certainly, there can be gray areas, which will be up to the moderators to decide how to handle them.
That's my take anyhow.
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Quoting DevilChilde
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10. Avoid using profanity.
Profanity in any form is discouraged. Using any means to bypass the profanity filter (for example: partial masking, such as asterisks or punctuation marks) is prohibited.
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Could you clarify this more specifically? Is typing [censored] disallowed? Is there an actual "limit" to profanity? At times I tend to be slightly profane, but I never circumvent the filter and typically confine myself to hells and damns, or at most a [censored] or two.
(Sorry if this was already clarified, but I didn't see it...)
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Their moderation of posts using [censored] has been completely inconsistent up to this point.
If I do it, it's bad. If others do it, it is sometimes ok.
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While it usually doesn't hit me, this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about when I asked for a copy of the actual guidelines and rule restrictions used by the moderators for their duties.
Enforcement of policies in the past has always been inconsistent in many ways. Several people that I know, and myself a good while back, essentially seemed to be being tracked to the point of having their posts moderated with little or no provocation due to statements that some staff may have taken offense to previously. At the same time others, usually being insulting and rude to forum posters concerned about changes or actions on the part of the NCSoft staff, specifically devs and moderators, have been allowed to make personally insulting remarks and profane statements blatantly against rules.
DevilChilde and I certainly bare no love for each other I suspect, but I've seen the same thing he's implying when reading his posts. (Gender in this statement was not assumed. The English language defaults to the male pronoun.)
Note: QR used because the forum keeps telling me I have no right to post in this section of the forum
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Aww Mins, I love you. You're fun to play with! We may have had disagreements but nothing I take seriously.
Gender assumption was correct even if you didn't actually assume.
You and I see some of the same stuff and are on the same page about these things. There is no rhyme or reason to the moderation of a lot of things. When reported, by button and PM, nothing gets done. Even when a moderator has been to the thread and deleted posts of the exact same nature but left quotes and copies in the thread.
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Slightly off topic but could help with the discusion, how come none of the newer mods post dont show up in the dev digest or community one?
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A lot of our posts are moderation posts, and we do tend to post more than most other red names. Also as moderators, we will rarely post official announcements, and if we do, we will post them in the announcement section. As such, were we included we'd pretty much end up spamming those digests with nothing more than our moderation responses say to locked threads or warning messages that attempt to steer threads back onto track. As such it was felt that those would not be viable or good posts to have show up in the digests.
However it was brought up, by Turbo-Ski I believe, that there should be a mod-digest, and this is an idea that while I am not averse to, and which will probably not happen, that I find appealing.
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Why don't you guys just moderate under a generic modname and make real posts under your name?
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Does this mean you'll finally put a stop to those annoying, non-constructive "first" posts?
*crosses fingers*
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I fully support this. I cringe each time I see a completely pointless 'First post after a red name' post. Please, please put those in as "nonconstructive" and put an end to it.
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At the same time others, usually being insulting and rude to forum posters concerned about changes or actions on the part of the NCSoft staff, specifically devs and moderators, have been allowed to make personally insulting remarks and profane statements blatantly against rules.
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Although I don't remember any community reps making "personally insulting remarks", I have seen one or two developers violate the rules. And they were moderated just like anyone else.
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It should be "are not tolerated."
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If the word "behavior" was plural, yes. But it is not.
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Abuse and disrespectful behavior.
Two things would be plural.
edit: zombieman explained it better 
Listen to Survival Guide. Because you should!
"You have a mom? I thought you were conceived through pure win?" ~Spinestradamus
"reading ur posts is like reading a stop sign, its red oddly shaped and makes me come to a complete stop...then i go" ~anon rep; thank you
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10. Avoid using profanity.
Profanity in any form is discouraged. Using any means to bypass the profanity filter (for example: partial masking, such as asterisks or punctuation marks) is prohibited.
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Could you clarify this more specifically? Is typing [censored] disallowed? Is there an actual "limit" to profanity? At times I tend to be slightly profane, but I never circumvent the filter and typically confine myself to hells and damns, or at most a [censored] or two.
(Sorry if this was already clarified, but I didn't see it...)
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If it's excessive, yes. Even in jest if all we see is a string of [censored], there is a high probability that it's going to get modded.
If it's done in the form of a non-construcitve post, it will probably get nuked as well
Example : The whole idea is complete [censored]
However if it happens to slip in somewhere, that is not meant in an antagonistic fashion, it will probably get left alone.
Koschej
Community Moderator
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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2. Abuse and disrespectful behavior is not tolerated.
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It should be "are not tolerated."
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Actually, probably should be: "Abusive and disrespectful behavior is not tolerated." Behavior applies to is, Abusive and disrespectful would apply to behavior. Unless there's an instance of "Abuse" that isn't a "behavior" that is... something I can't really imagine. (But if that's the case, switch the order: "Disrespectful behavior and abuse are not tolerated.")
Isn't English fun?
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Quoting DevilChilde
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10. Avoid using profanity.
Profanity in any form is discouraged. Using any means to bypass the profanity filter (for example: partial masking, such as asterisks or punctuation marks) is prohibited.
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Could you clarify this more specifically? Is typing [censored] disallowed? Is there an actual "limit" to profanity? At times I tend to be slightly profane, but I never circumvent the filter and typically confine myself to hells and damns, or at most a [censored] or two.
(Sorry if this was already clarified, but I didn't see it...)
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Their moderation of posts using [censored] has been completely inconsistent up to this point.
If I do it, it's bad. If others do it, it is sometimes ok.
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While it usually doesn't hit me, this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about when I asked for a copy of the actual guidelines and rule restrictions used by the moderators for their duties.
Enforcement of policies in the past has always been inconsistent in many ways. Several people that I know, and myself a good while back, essentially seemed to be being tracked to the point of having their posts moderated with little or no provocation due to statements that some staff may have taken offense to previously. At the same time others, usually being insulting and rude to forum posters concerned about changes or actions on the part of the NCSoft staff, specifically devs and moderators, have been allowed to make personally insulting remarks and profane statements blatantly against rules.
DevilChilde and I certainly bare no love for each other I suspect, but I've seen the same thing he's implying when reading his posts. (Gender in this statement was not assumed. The English language defaults to the male pronoun.)
Note: QR used because the forum keeps telling me I have no right to post in this section of the forum
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Aww Mins, I love you. You're fun to play with! We may have had disagreements but nothing I take seriously.
Gender assumption was correct even if you didn't actually assume.
You and I see some of the same stuff and are on the same page about these things. There is no rhyme or reason to the moderation of a lot of things. When reported, by button and PM, nothing gets done. Even when a moderator has been to the thread and deleted posts of the exact same nature but left quotes and copies in the thread.
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Eh, I don't dislike you. I just don't know you enough to like you.. My default for most people is not to like them until I have reason. The truth is, I don't much like people in general.
That said, I do see the exact same things you talk about. I got subjected to it awhile back and made it into a game for myself until that passed. Last time I was moderated I specifically replied with a question about the consistency of moderation. The response I got told me that I should make sure to report posts. In point of fact, I had reported the start of the chain I later got moderated for so I responded and clarified my question.
I got a read receipt but no actual response to the second one. This is not the first time. Of course, I've also managed to get partial answers to my concerns here without having the questions regarding consistency or guidelines used for moderation even addressed. though they were in the same area. I suppose without hard rules in company documents it becomes a judgment call whether or not to respond to our concerns regarding the new rule set itself. That's funny in a way.
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At the same time others, usually being insulting and rude to forum posters concerned about changes or actions on the part of the NCSoft staff, specifically devs and moderators, have been allowed to make personally insulting remarks and profane statements blatantly against rules.
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Although I don't remember any community reps making "personally insulting remarks", I have seen one or two developers violate the rules. And they were moderated just like anyone else.
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See? This is why I need to make clarifications.
I have repeatedly in the past seen someone start a topic in a constructive manner bringing up a concern about a developer decision about the game.
I then watch someone insult the person who brought up the concern in a blatantly personal manner. Something along the lines of: [insert name] must be smoking the [substance]. He needs a tin-foil hate seeing conspiracies everywhere where does he get such a stupid idea .
Someone then posts after this second post, calling the second poster a troll or stating that they are being an apologist or something of this manner.
A flame war begins.
Now, in many cases not only the third, but all three of these posts are reported.
The third one is moderated. The second, containing a post breaking the 'personal attack' rule is left alone. This has happened repeatedly and rather often. I assume it is because moderators are told to use 'their own judgment' rather than being told to 'enforce the rules as stated'.
I went overboard on my quest to get threads modded and locked down. I was out of line, I admitted it, but I ran into the same thing you did.
I think Koschej has me on ignore.
If things are so inconsistent, and people get singled out repeatedly, then the rules mean nothing. It instills a sense of favoritism towards those that are allowed to keep up the behavior. Especially when you see some of those people are active in areas supported and frequented by the community team or who get special treatment from them for whatever reason.
I am not saying that is, or isn't, the case. But they team should be aware of how these things can be perceived.
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I believe its not unreasonable to suggest that since calls for nerfs are much more likely to spark unproductive controversy on the forums, calls for power reductions should be held to a higher standard than calls for buffs.
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I don't think you'll be held responsible for how other people reply to your post....
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Aren't those statements a bit contradictory? If you say I need to be held to higher standards if my post is suggesting something a lot of people won't like, then I've got to change my bahavoir according to how other people will reply to my post.
But then, a 'higher standard' is not the rule. The rule is NO posting such things. And the reason for the rule is that some people can't respond to such posts in a respectable way, even if the post itself is well thought-out. I don't like being censored because somebody else has anger management problems.
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The rule is no "Nerf X!" threads. There is no rule banning the discussion of powers and entities that might not fit the current balance requirements of the game. If I discover that Dragon's Tail was given a 10x critical, I suspect mentioning that fact will not get me into trouble, even though technically I'm asking for a power nerf (because its a bug fix). If I suggest that the animation for Barrage needs to be slowed down to better convey power, I don't think I will get into trouble for that either, even though I'm asking for a cast time nerf (because its a suggestion to improve an animation subjectively). Even if I were to explicitly state that, say, blaster ranged attacks should not be unresistable in PvP, I doubt I would get into trouble if I presented a strong enough case in the right way. I could, for example, go the other way around: I could present a case that attempted to determine *what* the unresistable portion of ranged attack damage *should* be, based on some line of reasoning. If that reasoning led to the number "zero" that would not explicitly be a Nerf X thread (because here I'm discussing the balance metrics of the game).
Suppose that none of those possibilities existed for a particular poster. Perhaps they are simply not sufficiently aware, or simply don't have the inclination to make a post that detailed. In that case, stating the observations without making conclusions would also probably be within the limits of the rules. State *why* you think Shivans are too powerful, not your conclusion that they should be nerfed. "Shivans allow players to solo AVs even if they lack the damage output to do so ordinarily; is there any reasonable cost that is balanced for that type of temporary ability" is at least an open discussion. "Shivans need to be nerfed because they so obviously are broken" is not really an interesting point of discussion.
If I were to start a thread that said "unresistable damage should just be taken away from blasters because its too powerful the end" I'm pretty sure that thread would have an extremely short shelf life. Assuming people didn't think I was being funny.
You're not being held responsible for how people will respond to your post. The devs are automatically decreeing that "Nerf X" threads are simply too incindiary to be permitted: they don't actually *care* how people respond to your specific post: they're stating their intention to blow it away regardless of how players respond, as a general principle. Even if players respond politely. But if you do not post such a thread, you're not going to be held responsible if you post a perfectly reasonable thread and someone *else* turns it into a flame war. You won't be banned just for being an unwilling launchpad (at least I'm assuming that's true).
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First this is great news.
The forums had become anarchic of late with the snowflake posts about nerfs and the lulzy trolling as well, glad to see the mod-nukes are being armed.
I do have one question though:
Whenver I report an exploit (and boy have I in the past two months) the canned response tells me to discuss the issue on the forums.
If I find X produces an insanely quick reward thanks to an exploit, do I continue using the Petition feature and alerting Posi/Castle or do I mention it here and risk the banstick and the collapse of the gaming infrastructure?
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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But hey, it's still your playground and you get to make the rules. Nice job getting those polished up
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It's about keeping business and pleasure separate, Flea. We, as forum-goers, really don't need to know why various bits of disciplinary action take place, or whom they affect; if we follow the rules of the realm, we typically won't find ourselves in a position where we would need to. If threads are closed for reasons other than straightforward rules violations, the community reps often do post to tell us why, and that's a very courteous action on their part. But the back-end stuff like issuing warnings to people or banning them really isn't any of our concern.
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Also discipline and the response to it isn't a public spectacle, nor is it something that should be subject to public debate. The forums are not a democracy and you are not making your case to your fellow forum posters. In a discipline situation the only people you need to make your case to are the moderators and/or their supervisors.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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First this is great news.
The forums had become anarchic of late with the snowflake posts about nerfs and the lulzy trolling as well, glad to see the mod-nukes are being armed.
I do have one question though:
Whenver I report an exploit (and boy have I in the past two months) the canned response tells me to discuss the issue on the forums.
If I find X produces an insanely quick reward thanks to an exploit, do I continue using the Petition feature and alerting Posi/Castle or do I mention it here and risk the banstick and the collapse of the gaming infrastructure?
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In response to a previous post I want to say one thing.
Moderators will not ignore anyone on these forums, no matter their opinion of us. It is not professional, nor is it prudent given our job is to read people's posts, in case they contain rule breaking content, which we cannot see if the only thing there is **You are Ignoring this user* As for consistency, I will remind you once again that these are proprietary forums and we can allow or disallow any posts on these forums at our discretion. The other rules are the guidelines to be followed, the proprietary rule is the overall rule there.
As for exploit postings, if it is an actual exploit, come to the forums and message one of the Community team about it, and we will forward it on to the proper sources to get it taken care of. By placing it on the forums you put it in a place where people can see it, use it and possibly be caught using an exploit, etc. etc. before it gets fixed.
By letting us know however, you have a direct tap to get it taken care of.
Koschej
Community Moderator
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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We have worked to condense the rules to a more straightforward single list and to make them more straightforward and comprehensive.
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I think you meant to say, "We have worked to condense the rules to a more straightforward and comprehensive single list and to make them more straightforward and comprehensive."
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Quoting DevilChilde
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10. Avoid using profanity.
Profanity in any form is discouraged. Using any means to bypass the profanity filter (for example: partial masking, such as asterisks or punctuation marks) is prohibited.
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Could you clarify this more specifically? Is typing [censored] disallowed? Is there an actual "limit" to profanity? At times I tend to be slightly profane, but I never circumvent the filter and typically confine myself to hells and damns, or at most a [censored] or two.
(Sorry if this was already clarified, but I didn't see it...)
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Their moderation of posts using [censored] has been completely inconsistent up to this point.
If I do it, it's bad. If others do it, it is sometimes ok.
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While it usually doesn't hit me, this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about when I asked for a copy of the actual guidelines and rule restrictions used by the moderators for their duties.
Enforcement of policies in the past has always been inconsistent in many ways. Several people that I know, and myself a good while back, essentially seemed to be being tracked to the point of having their posts moderated with little or no provocation due to statements that some staff may have taken offense to previously. At the same time others, usually being insulting and rude to forum posters concerned about changes or actions on the part of the NCSoft staff, specifically devs and moderators, have been allowed to make personally insulting remarks and profane statements blatantly against rules.
DevilChilde and I certainly bare no love for each other I suspect, but I've seen the same thing he's implying when reading his posts. (Gender in this statement was not assumed. The English language defaults to the male pronoun.)
Note: QR used because the forum keeps telling me I have no right to post in this section of the forum