Devilchilde

Good to see someone continue fighting the good fight.

Seriously though, I'm happy to be back in the city kil....."arresting" stuff.

Hello Virtue. Returning after taking a few years off.

I promise, no trolling the RPers on the forums this time. I'll play nice.

It's a new and improved Devil.......or something.

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If you happen to have roughly forty million influence on the toon at the time and want to start working with sets early, then I wont say you can’t do something like that. I’m looking at the average player who, if they’re lucky only is working with anywhere from 500k to 2mill in funds; [u]20mill if they managed to find and sell a wings recipe[u], at that point they have a little more freedom to splurge on stuff at 30-35.

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I loled

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They used to run that high when the guide was written.

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(snip)
And just as a general FYI excessive use of the notify moderator button can get you in trouble as well. Even if it's reporting valid infractions of the forum rules.

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It can get you in trouble?
Is that your expereince or suspion?
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Unrelated: I'm assuming posts that [u]just[u] say 'can i have your stuff', 'cry moar' and the like going to counted as non constructive?

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Whatever. If moderators start taking "cry moar plz your tears they are delicious" out of the market forum, I'm setting up alternative forums for the cool kids

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I wish they would take all of those types of posts and threads and just trash them. Some sections of these forums are overrun with that kind of pointless and meaningless trash.

If they would just get rid of the areas that promote that kind of behavior it would be even better.

On a brighter note, I'm very happy with moderation activity I have seen over the last few days. Good job.

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One last attempt at clarity:

I'm apparently having a hard time expressing my concerns about the impartiality of moderation. Part of the cause of this is that bringing up examples of past actions involving staff which seemed to be wholly partial to one group or another even to explain why I was concerned would be a violation of the rules and cause for banning. Unfortunately, the concern itself would then be more properly taken up with board staff. In the past, I have attempted this with those who my concern regarded with little actual success or rational discussion in response. Unfortunately the stock reason given for this lack of response is that their time is limited. However, I receive multiple responses on the subject until I point out that none of these responses have actually addressed the initial question.

I have not, nor do I know of anyone who has, ever received other than a canned and non-specific response from the NCSoft support e-mail bandied about regularly as the next phase of having concerns addressed. The few times I have attempted to use it in fact I have often received responses that appeared to be in response to a completely different e-mail than the one I sent in given that they addressed a completely unrelated issue in as much as they addressed anything.

Can we bring up specific examples of past incidents in this discussion for purposes of illustrating our concerns?

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I understand what you are trying to do. As I was attempting the same thing. From what I have learned in my recent experiences, and communications, it would not be acceptable to reference these events in public. If you have a specific incident you want to discuss without risking the possibility of action being taken on your forum and/or game account I would suggest that you PM Lighthouse with your question.

I know that doesn't guarantee an answer, but it's pretty much what the mods are going to say to you.

I do want to stress to everyone that they can and will eventually take action against your game account, as well as your forum account, if you continuously disobey the rules, warnings or any other actions they take against you. I'm sure a lot of people are aware of that, but I wanted to state it again just in case.

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I'm sure this will get deleted, but past moderation actions have proven otherwise. Is this a change in how you guys are approaching this? Because it has happened in this very thread.

Anything that disagrees with moderator or community rep behavior, even if it's not attacking, has been deleted. Will this still be the case?

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Obviously where you saw a lack of forum rules being broken, they disagreed. Their judgment overrules yours.

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Obviously that's always the case, I'm not sure where the argument is there.

The rules were not broken as stated, it goes back to the "their discretion" clause. But it also in direct conflict with what Niv is saying here. That's the clarification I am looking for.

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Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.

You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.

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Like I said, they've made clear that trying to debate specific moderation activities is off-limits.

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Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread that has been removed or subject to other moderation, feel free to contact a moderator to discuss it.

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That's means you can't make a post along the lines of "Moderator4 deleted my post without any justification."

Honestly, it's going to be very hard for you to make a post about even broad patterns of problems with moderation. Not just because of the rules, but because it's nearly impossible to make such a thread without it devolving into a cesspool of non-constructive negativity. If we could guarantee constructive negativity it might be different.

Making such discussions into threads instead of PMs seems only to be valuable in an effort to drag the perceived problem(s) into the court of public opinion. But these forums aren't supposed to be a court of public opinion.

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I will give some examples, if they do not get deleted.
These are examples and may or may not reflect my own opinions.

I don't think Niv should be posting what come across as supportive comments on NSFW links.

In my opinion Ex Libris spends too much time pandering to niche groups and not enough to the overall community.

I think the mods show favoritism towards certain members of the community.

I think Lighthouse's avatar should be in 3-D and we should all get free 3-D glasses when we sign up for the game or else he sucks as a community rep.

Man Koschej is crazy for playing a warshade, admitting to it, and then starting a thread about it.



Some of that is silly, but I just want to know where the line is when it comes to discussing moderators and their actions when not related to a moderation action such as a lock or deletion.

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Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.

You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.

If Kos and Niv post in some pointless thread about something voicing their opinion that has nothing to do with NCSoft, I am sure you are free to disagree with them.

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I meant the Devs and the Community Team/anyone with a red name. Hope that clears it up for you Devil.

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I'm sure this will get deleted, but past moderation actions have proven otherwise. Is this a change in how you guys are approaching this? Because it has happened in this very thread.

Anything that disagrees with moderator or community rep behavior, even if it's not attacking, has been deleted. Will this still be the case?

Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.

You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.

If Kos and Niv post in some pointless thread about something voicing their opinion that has nothing to do with NCSoft, I am sure you are free to disagree with them.

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Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?

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I doubt it. As long as those disagreements are also controlled and lacking in insults and other such silliness.



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LH's post above yours seems to say I was right. Though it is a bit unclear.

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It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?

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Because that conveys a notion which does not underly their intent.

You want them to state that all rules are hard, fast, impartial, and inviolate.

By the nature of the goals, that is impossible. It will always be neccessary for them to use their human judgement about what is and is not acceptable, based on principles set forth in these rules. The rules encode one hard and fast rule - whatever they decide to do, based on their human judgements, it stands. Based on that one rule, its their way or the highway, because this is their house they built, and we're guests.

The rest of the rules are there to point out a few specific examples of things they're going to be looking for or types of behavior they don't want to see. Beyond that it's a judgement call, both on our part as posters and their part as moderators.

Saying it the way you seem to want them to - that this is a subjective order and watever they decide is what flies - would carry a pejorative connotation that they don't intend.

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Well said!

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Their intent is not to act as cruel, arbitrary dictators. They want guests in their house, and poorly treated guests leave.

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Also, we don't want current guest's to engage in actions that cause other guests to leave.

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But you would rather current guest's take their "dirty laundry" with the Community team and air it on other forums? That is the part I do not understand, why not have a place here to do that. Keep it in line of course, but have that option. I wouldn't want it creeping across other gaming forums and turning off potential new customers.

You can't even give any sort of negative feedback on the surveys. It's an odd situation, since most companies would use negative feedback to find ways to improve themselves. Negative, but constructive, feedback does wonders for any company who cares at all about customer service.

Just to clarify, that only applies to the Devs, correct?

Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?


And just as a general FYI excessive use of the notify moderator button can get you in trouble as well. Even if it's reporting valid infractions of the forum rules.

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This doesn't not apply when my posts are deleted by themselves, or the beginning of the chain.

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If you delete your own posts after they are part of a chain, you don't actually delete them. You leave an empty post that says "Post deleted by <yourname>." Any followups are left intact.

When the mods "hard" delete a post, it takes all threaded responses with it. Presumably the makers of the forum software offered this so you could kill any traces of something you want to make sure wasn't quoted downstream, along with any flaming that resulted. It makes sense to me, because the mods would want to do exactly that without having to spend time reading every threaded post decended from the one they want to kill.

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Ok, please go back and read what I am saying. I know how the forums work. Once again, I am NOT talking about that.

I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted. If I made posts that fit into the discussion, and those posts were not flaming, attacking, insulting, or anything of that nature and they were deleted,and not part of a chain that was deleted, I want to know what crossed the line.

Actions against an account are cumulative. If my posts keep breaking the rules even though they seem to be perfectly acceptable according to those rules, I want to know why so I can fix it.

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Devilchild, you are not going to get that clarity because it is subjective. We take cases as they come. If you would like to discuss it further with me, please send me a PM, thanks.

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It's not just for my sake.

This is not an attack, please don't mod this again. I'm just trying to point out how this all comes across through experience and the explanations you guys give. I am not insulting or attacking anyone.

Sort of a timeline analysis from my own observation and opinion.

Forums: Good --> Forums start to deteriorate due to random forum nonsense --> Special sections are made For Fun (mostly in an attempt to keep all the nonsense in one place it seems) --> Server forums are exempt from some of the rules --> Nonsense spills out of For Fun onto Servers --> Nonsense spills out of Servers and For Fun into the rest of the forums --> Quality of forums decline --> Rampant rule breaking necessitating increased moderation and banning and rehashing of the rules by the community staff (a necessary move and one that I thank you for, even if I get caught up in it)

BUT (because there always is one)

The enforcement of the rules is perceived by the community as random. Some posters seem to skate by without deletion or moderation even when reported by the community. <----This is where the confusion comes in.

When I say something like lol that [censored] is funny I may get deleted but other posters can have things like "you can go [censored] *fill in the blank*" and are left alone. Even though it is a violation of guidelines explained to me by yourself and other mods and even when it's reported multiple times.

I think what Minimal, Peregrine, myself and some others are wanting to know is why does that stuff happen? How is something reported multiple times and an obvious violation never touched when other lesser infractions are moderated heavily?

Also, it is of my own opinion that anything NSFW has no place on a teen rated game forum. Art or not, it is inappropriate to link to from here.

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I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted. If I made posts that fit into the discussion, and those posts were not flaming, attacking, insulting, or anything of that nature and they were deleted,and not part of a chain that was deleted, I want to know what crossed the line.

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Sorry, I did misread your post.

I don't know what to tell you except that posts of mine that have been moderated in the last couple of months have always come with a PM from the moderators about what and why. Obviously I don't know if that's happening for everyone, but I certainly would agree that it should be.

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It doesn't. Getting any kind of response through PM from the Community Reps/Mods has been very difficult in most cases. Ex Libris being the exception recently.

Disclaimer: This only represents my recent experience and is in no way an attack on anyone who works for the company. There could be a number of reasons I do not get a response, up to and including the fact that I am a jerk and they don't want to deal with me. Which, given recent activity I have engaged in is a perfectly acceptable reason.

Kos did respond to me last night and tried to clarify. It didn't help much but that's more because of how the rules or set up and not due to his actions.

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Honestly, I think you're engaging in a large amount of hyperbole at the moment. There are multiple critical posts in this very thread of the new-old rules. They all still exist.

There's a very large difference between "I don't agree with you and here's why" and "I don't agree with you, you suck."

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No, I'm not. I know what I posted. I never said anything along the lines of the "you suck" comment.

If my post is deleted and not part of a chain, please don't bring that up again, but other similar posts are left untouched, I want to know why so I can fix it.

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This doesn't not apply when my posts are deleted by themselves, or the beginning of the chain.

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If you delete your own posts after they are part of a chain, you don't actually delete them. You leave an empty post that says "Post deleted by <yourname>." Any followups are left intact.

When the mods "hard" delete a post, it takes all threaded responses with it. Presumably the makers of the forum software offered this so you could kill any traces of something you want to make sure wasn't quoted downstream, along with any flaming that resulted. It makes sense to me, because the mods would want to do exactly that without having to spend time reading every threaded post decended from the one they want to kill.

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Ok, please go back and read what I am saying. I know how the forums work. Once again, I am NOT talking about that.

I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted. If I made posts that fit into the discussion, and those posts were not flaming, attacking, insulting, or anything of that nature and they were deleted,and not part of a chain that was deleted, I want to know what crossed the line.

Actions against an account are cumulative. If my posts keep breaking the rules even though they seem to be perfectly acceptable according to those rules, I want to know why so I can fix it.

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I am just trying to understand what crosses the line because even posts that aren't insulting or attacking the mods still get deleted.



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Actually what causes that is the way posts chain in the forums. If I post something over the line then oh Zloth posts replying or quick replying off of my post then Pax, then smashmouth, and then you. That is a chain it gets broken anytime someone posts in reply to a post above mine. So what happens is my post was over the line and gets mod smacked. That also automatically removes Zloths, Pax's, Smashmouth's and your posts. Then you wonder what you did to get modded. But you where not the person modded.

The above scenario describes 90% of the missing posts that people wonder about. They think their innocent post is what got modded even though the mods never even touched it. Or didn't touch it directly. If you don't recieve a formal notice from a mod that your post was removed you were not directly modded but instead a collateral victim.

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Obviously I understand how the forums work.

This doesn't not apply when my posts are deleted by themselves, or the beginning of the chain.

That part is what needs clarification. It appears that any mentioning of the community team that isn't praising them will get deleted. Even if it's not attacking them in any way.

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Again, as long as it is done in a constructive fashion it is fine, however the moment that attacks and insinuations begin to be made, they will be moderated out.

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But everything counts as insinuation or an attack if we even mention the community team.

So I ask you, please, tell us how we can actually discuss this stuff here without moderation.

Give an example if you have to, I am just not getting it.

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Pause, take a deep breath. You are over analyzing things.

Really the way to think about it is this. If you are hesitant to post it because you are afraid you might get mod smacked then you probably shouldn't be posting what ever you are about to post. Really it is as simple as that.

If the discussion is straight forward and you are not being hostile or defensive in your posting there should be nothing to worry about.

And last there is no simple example that can be posted because the situation changes literally from post to post depending on what is happening. thus my comment about if you are hesitant about posting it you probably shouldn't. I usually stop and review my posts for tone or content first before posting and in a number of cases I've then not posted it because I realized it wasn't helping the discussion.

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I am just trying to understand what crosses the line because even posts that aren't insulting or attacking the mods still get deleted.

If I say something like "I really wish Kos would stop posting in the warshade thread" is that ok?

What about "Ex is supporting *insert activity here* because she posted in X thread and that's wrong"

That was really my whole issue with the consistency thing. Even threads that I don't think twice about posting, because they seem perfectly fine to me, get modded.


I want these forums to get cleaned up. As stated by others, over the past couple of years things have declined around here. That's not an attack on the mods, that's an observation about the quality of the posts people are making. Myself included. I wish the entire For Fun section had never been created. I wish server forums still had to follow the rules of the rest of the forums. I wish things WERE a little more strict around here.

Is that ok for me to say?

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Again, as long as it is done in a constructive fashion it is fine, however the moment that attacks and insinuations begin to be made, they will be moderated out.

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But everything counts as insinuation or an attack if we even mention the community team.

So I ask you, please, tell us how we can actually discuss this stuff here without moderation.

Give an example if you have to, I am just not getting it.

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First: Koschej, I've been trying to get anyone in a position of authority to just bluntly state that for awhile now. It's why I keep asking about policies and major respect for finally seeing someone just state it. I've always gotten prevarication and dodges instead every time before this that it came up. Since that's in a public post, can I quote it as my signature?


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This is actually stated by, I believe, rule 17 of the new rules. If you feel the need to quote it, I would request you quote that instead of what I have said in the discussion of it.

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These forums are full of "grey areas", there can't be 100% consistency at all times - that's just not feasible or dare I say possible, to enforce the rules with 100% accuracy.

And as a few people have already pointed out, in their own ways...
If they actually did so it would undoubtedly feel more than a little Draconian, and the Forums would likely have a decidely "empty feel" to them.

So they do their Jobs, by exercising their own discretion on a case by case basis - according to the rules - to the extent possible.

The Forums are a huge field - with pitch black on one side, and pure white on the other - and a big fuzzy patch of grey all the way down the middle, where the Mods do their best to keep things civil, constructive, happy, etc.


That said if you're uncertain about what you can/can't or should/shouldn't say, use your own best discretion.

IMO, I believe the Mods can generally tell whether or not a poster either has, or is at least trying to - exercise some sort of discretion (and staying within the rules) when posting.

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Honestly, this is the best response I have seen to this and I can't think of a better way to state it.

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Please use this thread to discuss the below announcement.

We have recently revised the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines that govern conduct on the Official City of Heroes Message Forums. We have worked to condense the rules to a more straightforward single list and to make them more straightforward and comprehensive. Everyone is encouraged to review them.

Click here to view the revised Message Forum Rules and Guidelines.

I want to publicly acknowledge Moderator Koschej for doing much of the work on our revised rules. Should anyone have questions or desire clarification about the rules, please post here or send a private message to any of the City of Heroes Community Team: <ul type="square">[*] Lighthouse: Community Manager[*] Ex Libris: Community Coordinator[*] Niviene: Community Moderator[*] Koschej: Community Moderator[/list]We're working hard to promote the City of Heroes Community and make the Official Message Forums a great place to visit!

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My only problem with the rules and how they are set up is that if I have a problem with the community manager, for example if Lighthouse were to behave inappropriately, I would have no one to take it up with as he is the Community Manager. In any other industry I would be able to complain to his boss, but in this situation I would be powerless. And that just doesn't seem right to me.

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There are four people on the community team as a check and balance. However if issues you have are unable to be reconciled, and you wish promote it past Lighthouse, you can go to http://support.plaync.com and submit your issue to us via the “Ask a Question” tab.

I would also remind everyone, that the nature of this thread is to answer your questions regarding the new rules, not to provide a place to attack moderation actions, discuss moderation that has been done, or engender non-constructive posting on this topic. Please refrain from these types of postings, as they are not allowed according to the new rules of the forums.

I have tried to answer as many questions about the new rules as I can since I did a lot of work into writing them and will be doing even more into enforcing them, however I will continue moderating posts that are not conductive to the discussion. Constructive discussion I will continue to try and answer to the best of my ability.

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I have been asking for clarification on how the enforcement of the rules will be any different now. Not attacking, and relevant.

I pointed out to another forum poster that asking or discussing certain things would get modded. Not attacking, and relevant.

You then did exactly that. To an answer, which has proven to be accurate, and not an attack on anyone.

None of this was an attack on anyone. It was a discussion of the rules and how they are enforced. Relevant.

It is just reinforcing some of the things that have been stated in this thread so far. &lt;--Also relevant.

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As for consistency, I will remind you once again that these are proprietary forums and we can allow or disallow any posts on these forums at our discretion. The other rules are the guidelines to be followed, the proprietary rule is the overall rule there.

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This is exactly the reason things got into the state they are/were in. This is also the reason why nobody around here has a clue what is ok to post on any given day.

Make some rules, stick to them, change them if needed but this moderation on a whim hasn't been working very well for a while now.

I went overboard on my quest to get threads modded and locked down. I was out of line, I admitted it, but I ran into the same thing you did.

I think Koschej has me on ignore.

If things are so inconsistent, and people get singled out repeatedly, then the rules mean nothing. It instills a sense of favoritism towards those that are allowed to keep up the behavior. Especially when you see some of those people are active in areas supported and frequented by the community team or who get special treatment from them for whatever reason.

I am not saying that is, or isn't, the case. But they team should be aware of how these things can be perceived.

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Slightly off topic but could help with the discusion, how come none of the newer mods post dont show up in the dev digest or community one?

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A lot of our posts are moderation posts, and we do tend to post more than most other red names. Also as moderators, we will rarely post official announcements, and if we do, we will post them in the announcement section. As such, were we included we'd pretty much end up spamming those digests with nothing more than our moderation responses say to locked threads or warning messages that attempt to steer threads back onto track. As such it was felt that those would not be viable or good posts to have show up in the digests.

However it was brought up, by Turbo-Ski I believe, that there should be a mod-digest, and this is an idea that while I am not averse to, and which will probably not happen, that I find appealing.

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Why don't you guys just moderate under a generic modname and make real posts under your name?

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Quoting DevilChilde

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10. Avoid using profanity.

Profanity in any form is discouraged. Using any means to bypass the profanity filter (for example: partial masking, such as asterisks or punctuation marks) is prohibited.

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Could you clarify this more specifically? Is typing [censored] disallowed? Is there an actual "limit" to profanity? At times I tend to be slightly profane, but I never circumvent the filter and typically confine myself to hells and damns, or at most a [censored] or two.

(Sorry if this was already clarified, but I didn't see it...)

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Their moderation of posts using [censored] has been completely inconsistent up to this point.


If I do it, it's bad. If others do it, it is sometimes ok.

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While it usually doesn't hit me, this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about when I asked for a copy of the actual guidelines and rule restrictions used by the moderators for their duties.

Enforcement of policies in the past has always been inconsistent in many ways. Several people that I know, and myself a good while back, essentially seemed to be being tracked to the point of having their posts moderated with little or no provocation due to statements that some staff may have taken offense to previously. At the same time others, usually being insulting and rude to forum posters concerned about changes or actions on the part of the NCSoft staff, specifically devs and moderators, have been allowed to make personally insulting remarks and profane statements blatantly against rules.

DevilChilde and I certainly bare no love for each other I suspect, but I've seen the same thing he's implying when reading his posts. (Gender in this statement was not assumed. The English language defaults to the male pronoun.)

Note: QR used because the forum keeps telling me I have no right to post in this section of the forum

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Aww Mins, I love you. You're fun to play with! We may have had disagreements but nothing I take seriously.

Gender assumption was correct even if you didn't actually assume.

You and I see some of the same stuff and are on the same page about these things. There is no rhyme or reason to the moderation of a lot of things. When reported, by button and PM, nothing gets done. Even when a moderator has been to the thread and deleted posts of the exact same nature but left quotes and copies in the thread.

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As such, warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. Such matters shall remain private between the NCsoft and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread that has been removed or subject to other moderation, feel free to contact a moderator to discuss it.


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I disagree with this policy, to a certain extent. While I understand that your company does not want to have a public debate regarding specific conduct that results in a disciplinary action, I believe that it would be helpful to me, and others in the community, to see exactly what discipline results from engaging in certain conduct.

For example, I have seen Lighthouse and Niviene lock certain threads with a brief statement of why. Those types of moderation help me understand how the forum rules are applied in a practical and real context.

But hey, it's still your playground and you get to make the rules. Nice job getting those polished up

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I've complained about these forums' moderation before... just not here on these forums. I would use another forum, such as an SG forum, comic forum, game website forum, etc. if you need to vent.

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And we thank you for that.

However I would also say that we try to be very approachable. While we cannot discuss moderation of other people, if you feel something or you, yourself, got moderated unfairly, or things are uneven, you can message one of us to discuss it. Keep in mind that certain actions we may not be able to talk about, but if you do have concerns, we are open to talk about them.

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Seems like you would rather have the discussion here instead of out on the net where potential customers can get turned off by the actions of the employees.