Discussion: Forum Rules Revision
By
Absinth_Incubus,
Posted on: 2008-07-21 13:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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This doesn't not apply when my posts are deleted by themselves, or the beginning of the chain.
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If you delete your own posts after they are part of a chain, you don't actually delete them. You leave an empty post that says "Post deleted by <yourname>." Any followups are left intact.
When the mods "hard" delete a post, it takes all threaded responses with it. Presumably the makers of the forum software offered this so you could kill any traces of something you want to make sure wasn't quoted downstream, along with any flaming that resulted. It makes sense to me, because the mods would want to do exactly that without having to spend time reading every threaded post decended from the one they want to kill.
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Ok, please go back and read what I am saying. I know how the forums work. Once again, I am NOT talking about that.
I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted. If I made posts that fit into the discussion, and those posts were not flaming, attacking, insulting, or anything of that nature and they were deleted,and not part of a chain that was deleted, I want to know what crossed the line.
Actions against an account are cumulative. If my posts keep breaking the rules even though they seem to be perfectly acceptable according to those rules, I want to know why so I can fix it.
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Devilchild, you are not going to get that clarity because it is subjective. We take cases as they come. If you would like to discuss it further with me, please send me a PM, thanks.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted.
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Devilchild, you are not going to get that clarity because it is subjective. We take cases as they come. If you would like to discuss it further with me, please send me a PM, thanks.
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Are you serious?
I ask because it appears to me that what you're saying is this:
1) We have a new set of fairly vague rules for the forums that are completely open to interpetation by the whim of the moderation staff and whatever level of caffeine they may have in their system at the time.
2) It's against the rules to use any of the basic "bad words."
3) It's also against the rules to post other things, but since that list is "subjective" you're not going to tell us what it is.
Which means that every single time that I or anyone else puts a post up on these forums that isn't 100% happy-happy-joy-joy undying praise for the moderators and/or NCSoft staff that we're essentially giving the Grand Wheel 'O Death a hearty spin. Round and round and round she goes, and where she stops nobody knows!
*click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click*
Congratulations!! The Grand Wheel 'O Death has stopped on... Perma Game Account Ban!! Yes! Congratulations!! You now have the opportunity to kiss all of the money you've paid over the years, all of your characters and your Veteran Rewards goodbye! You just violated a rule that you didn't even know existed!
Yeah. I'd appreciate it if you'd send me a copy of that PM as well Lighthouse, because I really hope that there is something that I've misunderstood here.
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I think the rules could be summarised by the phrase, "Play nice."
Seems fair to me.
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Asking villains to play nice even on a message forum is an outrage imho.
What this board need is more emotions more blood and more chaos to be entertaining. Hey look at the TV stations, they learned that years ago 
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Why do you think these forums are here for entertainment?
Be well, people of CoH.
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Which means that every single time that I or anyone else puts a post up on these forums that isn't 100% happy-happy-joy-joy undying praise for the moderators and/or NCSoft staff that we're essentially giving the Grand Wheel 'O Death a hearty spin. Round and round and round she goes, and where she stops nobody knows!
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Mods, seriously, do you NEED a better example of what has turned these forums into a cesspool?
Flatly blowing everything completely out of proportion in order to continue to spew baseless garbarge.
This is the norm. This is what you allow on a daily basis. This is why you keep having to rehash the rules.
Be well, people of CoH.
Whew!
Waded through the whole thing, and I have a couple of comments I think will be useful:
A mod/ban digest or summary published regularly would help with the impression some people get of "but they aren't DOING anything about it". Sometimes people feel that certain problems aren't being addressed because we (as is appropriate) don't get feedback about a reported incident/violation. Things I'd personally be interested in would be "X accounts banned for spam/rmt violations", and anything that's on the upswing and we should be aware of. I don't want actual identification of the violators, or course, but I feel that some kind of feedback that things are being addressed would be a positive thing.
/signed: although the game and the forums are not a democracy, there is a huge difference between a post of an idea that gets only one or two responses, and one that gets 27 "/signed!". The first appears to have no interest at all to anyone, positive or negative, while the second is obviously VERY appealing to a large number or people.
Therefore, I think there is a place for the simple, succinct post that says in a single word "I like this idea, and would very much like to see it happen, exactly as is, with no changes." Prohibiting "/signed' seems to me to mean that I may not even express agreement with an idea unless I have something to add to it that has not been expressed in the previous posts. I realize that that is probably not the intent, but it is how it feels.
Thanks!
A log or digest would not be nearly as effective, if the mods just went in. deleted a post/poster name, and then replaced it with a "this thread has been modified" With a red name on it, it would get people's attention.
Delete the whole tree, put the this post has been modified.
It would tell people, they are watching and doing their job, and help people get back on topic alot faster. It might even make them more discussion oriented, as opposed to wanting to rant.
I may have misunderstood, but my impression after wading/skimming through the whole thread was that they were talking about a log/digest of moderator/developer actions in the game, such as banning accounts, tackling cyberstalkers, etc.
Since it's entirely possible that I misread it or misremembered what I'd read so much higher, then if it was talking about forum activities, I agree, the "Thread locked for necroposting", or "Thread deleted by [name] for rule violations", etc. are much more useful.
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Mods, seriously, do you NEED a better example of what has turned these forums into a cesspool?
Flatly blowing everything completely out of proportion in order to continue to spew baseless garbarge.
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Now admittedly I've exagerated for effect, but if you carefully read the posts that Lighthouse quoted and then his response you'll see that what I wrote is essentially correct. In response to, "I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted." Lighthouse wrote, "you are not going to get that clarity because it is subjective."
Which means exactly what I said. Specifically in that Lighthouse is saying that whether or not a post will be banned or deleted is going to be completely at the whim of the moderation staff. Those of us who want to disagree with something will not be able keep from crossing the line because we don't know where the line is. That line is invisible, and Lighthouse is saying that the line is going to remain invisible. So yes, while I've obviously exagerated in my post the intent is correct. Lighthouse is specifically saying that they are not going to disclose exactly what is against the rules.
I personally have no problem following the rules, whatever rules NCSoft personnel choose to set. But I don't think it's too much to ask what those rules are. I'd like to know what the rules are so that I can be certain that I do not violate them.
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I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted.
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Devilchild, you are not going to get that clarity because it is subjective. We take cases as they come. If you would like to discuss it further with me, please send me a PM, thanks.
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Are you serious?
I ask because it appears to me that what you're saying is this:
1) We have a new set of fairly vague rules for the forums that are completely open to interpetation by the whim of the moderation staff and whatever level of caffeine they may have in their system at the time.
2) It's against the rules to use any of the basic "bad words."
3) It's also against the rules to post other things, but since that list is "subjective" you're not going to tell us what it is.
Which means that every single time that I or anyone else puts a post up on these forums that isn't 100% happy-happy-joy-joy undying praise for the moderators and/or NCSoft staff that we're essentially giving the Grand Wheel 'O Death a hearty spin. Round and round and round she goes, and where she stops nobody knows!
*click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click*
Congratulations!! The Grand Wheel 'O Death has stopped on... Perma Game Account Ban!! Yes! Congratulations!! You now have the opportunity to kiss all of the money you've paid over the years, all of your characters and your Veteran Rewards goodbye! You just violated a rule that you didn't even know existed!
Yeah. I'd appreciate it if you'd send me a copy of that PM as well Lighthouse, because I really hope that there is something that I've misunderstood here.
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This is a prime example of why things must be vague.
You're looking to nail down the exact line. The seven bad words that can't be used.
Then, you can dance around that line. Come up with a creative vulgarity which isn't on the list and so you can't be held responsible for breaking the rules.
It's purposely vague so that rules lawyers can't loophole their way out of their thinly veiled transgressions.
And even if the Mods detail everything specifically, there's always the "at our discretion/whim" clause which says they can do whatever they want. This protects them from not only the ones who dance about the law, but also protects them from lawsuits that claim they didn't follow their own rules. Their own rules says they can do whatever they want. So, getting the list of bad words will not stop them from modding a post that comes up with a new vulgarism. They can do whatever they want.
You aren't ever going to get them to change that part of the rules.
If that makes you nervous, anxious, paranoid.... then there's nothing that can be done about that. That's the way it is.
If I thought they were being too capricious in moderation, I'd leave, because I can't make them change.
That's the way it is on most moderated boards. Those who don't like that can host their own forum or revive usenet.
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This doesn't not apply when my posts are deleted by themselves, or the beginning of the chain.
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If you delete your own posts after they are part of a chain, you don't actually delete them. You leave an empty post that says "Post deleted by <yourname>." Any followups are left intact.
When the mods "hard" delete a post, it takes all threaded responses with it. Presumably the makers of the forum software offered this so you could kill any traces of something you want to make sure wasn't quoted downstream, along with any flaming that resulted. It makes sense to me, because the mods would want to do exactly that without having to spend time reading every threaded post decended from the one they want to kill.
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Ok, please go back and read what I am saying. I know how the forums work. Once again, I am NOT talking about that.
I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted. If I made posts that fit into the discussion, and those posts were not flaming, attacking, insulting, or anything of that nature and they were deleted,and not part of a chain that was deleted, I want to know what crossed the line.
Actions against an account are cumulative. If my posts keep breaking the rules even though they seem to be perfectly acceptable according to those rules, I want to know why so I can fix it.
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Devilchild, you are not going to get that clarity because it is subjective. We take cases as they come. If you would like to discuss it further with me, please send me a PM, thanks.
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It's not just for my sake.
This is not an attack, please don't mod this again. I'm just trying to point out how this all comes across through experience and the explanations you guys give. I am not insulting or attacking anyone.
Sort of a timeline analysis from my own observation and opinion.
Forums: Good --> Forums start to deteriorate due to random forum nonsense --> Special sections are made For Fun (mostly in an attempt to keep all the nonsense in one place it seems) --> Server forums are exempt from some of the rules --> Nonsense spills out of For Fun onto Servers --> Nonsense spills out of Servers and For Fun into the rest of the forums --> Quality of forums decline --> Rampant rule breaking necessitating increased moderation and banning and rehashing of the rules by the community staff (a necessary move and one that I thank you for, even if I get caught up in it)
BUT (because there always is one)
The enforcement of the rules is perceived by the community as random. Some posters seem to skate by without deletion or moderation even when reported by the community. <----This is where the confusion comes in.
When I say something like lol that [censored] is funny I may get deleted but other posters can have things like "you can go [censored] *fill in the blank*" and are left alone. Even though it is a violation of guidelines explained to me by yourself and other mods and even when it's reported multiple times.
I think what Minimal, Peregrine, myself and some others are wanting to know is why does that stuff happen? How is something reported multiple times and an obvious violation never touched when other lesser infractions are moderated heavily?
Also, it is of my own opinion that anything NSFW has no place on a teen rated game forum. Art or not, it is inappropriate to link to from here.
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Specifically in that Lighthouse is saying that whether or not a post will be banned or deleted is going to be completely at the whim of the moderation staff
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Not really.
The rules boil down to this : Be Clean, Be Courteous.
They rest of the rules are basically calling out examples, and some things not readily apparent. Don't think that if the moderation staff starts taking action against anyone who annoys them little bit that THEY won't have to face actions, as we can always appeal to someone above them (support tickets, or one of the favorites for making sure it gets to where you want it, "Signature of addressee required" letters, although those actually cost money.
Rules for social interaction are mostly guidelines wherever you go, Peregrine, with a few hard & fast points (never threaten someone's jewels near a microphone on TV, you never know if it's on, etc)
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Not really.
The rules boil down to this : Be Clean, Be Courteous.
They rest of the rules are basically calling out examples, and some things not readily apparent.
Rules for social interaction are mostly guidelines wherever you go.
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It is that simple.
I already seen a couple of posts deleted today, and atleast one whole thread gone.
They are not kidding, which is good news.
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They are not kidding, which is good news.
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I will continue to hope.
Be well, people of CoH.
I just happen to be reading and doing my forums thing right now. None of them lasted more than 20 minutes. But I expect that during the day, things might slip by that are posted in the middle of the night tho.
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Flatly blowing everything completely out of proportion in order to continue to spew baseless garbarge.
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Not sure if they can do much about that. That puts them in the position of deciding what is a "worthy" argument. That's our job. (Not that I think it's actually worth it in this particular case.)
Regarding profanity....
Very simple, very easy. Use other words. Or just censor it yourself. I like to use curly brackets to distinguish from the {censored} filter pulling a {censored} hack job on my {censored} post.
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Use other words.
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Odd point that.
Officially, the following sentence has no cussing:
"I'll farking cuss on this gorram forum any time I frelling want to."
Yet any geek worth his salt knows what I said.
Is this allowed?
Be well, people of CoH.
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Use other words.
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Odd point that.
Officially, the following sentence has no cussing:
"I'll farking cuss on this gorram forum any time I frelling want to."
Yet any geek worth his salt knows what I said.
Is this allowed?
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Frickin' right it is.
Unless the ModWhimOfTheDay says "no".
No hard and fast rules leads to us dipping our toes in the forbidden pool.
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Clarification: If I'm having a conversation with a Dev, Community Manager, or Moderator and they give information that I feel would be useful to the community: IE a technical issue workaround, news of new content, etc. --wouldn't it be appropriate to post that? Or do you want us to ask first? Thanks.
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Just as a standing rule, PMs from me can generally be quoted and put up on the forums. The cases where this is not true, I always include a comment to that effect in the PM, be it "Sub-rosa", "between you and I", "Please, don't publicize this." or some variation thereof. That has been my policy since I became a "red name" and so far, no one has violated it, to my knowledge. I'd be quite cross if someone did, however!
EDIT: To be on the safe side, it is ALWAYS proper to ask for permission before disseminating private correspondence.
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Use other words.
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Odd point that.
Officially, the following sentence has no cussing:
"I'll farking cuss on this gorram forum any time I frelling want to."
Yet any geek worth his salt knows what I said.
Is this allowed?
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It comes down to intent I suppose.
The 'seven words' are likely a no-no. Best to just use standard fare and not incite anything.
In your example, Bill, I suspect the mods would let that slide.
If more people try to subvert the filters that too may find its way into the 'naughty bin'.
Overall, great moves by the Mod crew. :-)
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Use other words.
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Odd point that.
Officially, the following sentence has no cussing:
"I'll farking cuss on this gorram forum any time I frelling want to."
Yet any geek worth his salt knows what I said.
Is this allowed?
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Well ask yourself this, is that a "constructive" sentence? The hidden/fake cussing wouldn't be an issue so much as the fact that the sentence lends nothing to a discussion and would be considered trolling.
I warned you Bill....lol.
Wow!
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Well ask yourself this, is that a "constructive" sentence? The hidden/fake cussing wouldn't be an issue so much as the fact that the sentence lends nothing to a discussion and would be considered trolling.
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Fair enough. But the "lends nothing to a discussion" part will always fall under moderator whim, so if I see a post that lends nothing to a discussion and hit notify moderator, it will always be a coin flip on whether action will be taken.
However, that point's been pounded into the frelling dirt now, so I'll quit harping on it and hope for the best.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Well ask yourself this, is that a "constructive" sentence? The hidden/fake cussing wouldn't be an issue so much as the fact that the sentence lends nothing to a discussion and would be considered trolling.
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Fair enough. But the "lends nothing to a discussion" part will always fall under moderator whim, so if I see a post that lends nothing to a discussion and hit notify moderator, it will always be a coin flip on whether action will be taken.
However, that point's been pounded into the frelling dirt now, so I'll quit harping on it and hope for the best.
[/ QUOTE ]You could also say that he is trying to bypass the forum software with that fake cursing. We all know what it is because it is not censored. Mods Ban him!!!
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Ok, so on a related subject:
Recently a major change to the way Task Forces are handled in game was reversed because a large number of people filled a thread with disagreement of the changes the devs had made. I see this disagreement as something that has value to NCSoft. I currently believe that the devs want to know what we really think about something, instead of reading nothing but whitewash posted by people that are afraid to disagree for fear of the banhammer. (Please feel free to correct me if my belief is wrong.)
So my question is this: Won't your new rules and way of enforcing them effectively stop something like that from ever happening again?
Ok, I'll be the first to admit that I'll be as happy as anyone else to not have to see all 25 threads upset at the EM Nerf at the top of the forums 24/7. However, are we still allowed to post disagreements with dev decisions as long as it's done in a calm, courteous and nonflamable manner?
I'm being serious here. I'm really not trying to be a troll. I'd really like someone to tell me:
1) Yes, it's ok to disagree with the devs as long as you're not trolling/flamming/insulting/being a wacky nutcase/whatever else.
OR
2) No. You are not allowed to disagree with any redname on these forums.
I know this may seem kinda silly, but from what I've read in this thread it's starting to look to me like the answer might very well be #2.
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Lighthouse, Etc.,
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10. Avoid using profanity.
Profanity in any form is discouraged. Using any means to bypass the profanity filter (for example: partial masking, such as asterisks or punctuation marks) is prohibited.
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I'm wondering if it is OK to curse freely as long as make sure all our words ARE caught by the filter? I thought the filter was there so you didnt have to see certain stuff, but you can turn it off and see the stuff. Or, is the forum filter always present? Maybe I'm unfairly comparing it to the in-game filter. Is there no way to turn the forum filter off? I've never taken a hard look at my personal forum settings.
Lewis
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Hi Lewis,
I think if you read the first part of section 10, it will be clear to you:
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10. Avoid using profanity.
Profanity in any form is discouraged.
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Please avoid using profanity. Thanks!
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.