Discussion: Forum Rules Revision
By
Absinth_Incubus,
Posted on: 2008-07-21 13:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Is this a blanket order that discussion about any game, including offline, single-player (or multiplayer like Halo 3) Wii/360/PS3/PC games is verboten?
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If I might... actually discussing such things is, by defintion, off topic, and they broadly disallow off-topic discussion.
Mentioning them for context or somthing isn't likely to be a problem. "I want Martial Arts to look like it does in Street Fighter" should be OK.
(By the way, I really don't want that. It was just an example.)
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Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.
You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.
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Like I said, they've made clear that trying to debate specific moderation activities is off-limits.
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Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread that has been removed or subject to other moderation, feel free to contact a moderator to discuss it.
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That's means you can't make a post along the lines of "Moderator4 deleted my post without any justification."
Honestly, it's going to be very hard for you to make a post about even broad patterns of problems with moderation. Not just because of the rules, but because it's nearly impossible to make such a thread without it devolving into a cesspool of non-constructive negativity. If we could guarantee constructive negativity it might be different.
Making such discussions into threads instead of PMs seems only to be valuable in an effort to drag the perceived problem(s) into the court of public opinion. But these forums aren't supposed to be a court of public opinion.
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I will give some examples, if they do not get deleted.
These are examples and may or may not reflect my own opinions.
I don't think Niv should be posting what come across as supportive comments on NSFW links.
In my opinion Ex Libris spends too much time pandering to niche groups and not enough to the overall community.
I think the mods show favoritism towards certain members of the community.
I think Lighthouse's avatar should be in 3-D and we should all get free 3-D glasses when we sign up for the game or else he sucks as a community rep.
Man Koschej is crazy for playing a warshade, admitting to it, and then starting a thread about it.
Some of that is silly, but I just want to know where the line is when it comes to discussing moderators and their actions when not related to a moderation action such as a lock or deletion.
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Is this a blanket order that discussion about any game, including offline, single-player (or multiplayer like Halo 3) Wii/360/PS3/PC games is verboten?
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If I might... actually discussing such things is, by defintion, off topic, and they broadly disallow off-topic discussion.
Mentioning them for context or somthing isn't likely to be a problem. "I want Martial Arts to look like it does in Street Fighter" should be OK.
(By the way, I really don't want that. It was just an example.)
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In terms of the Comics forum, not in terms of the General or other subsections.
For instance, there's a stickied 360 Gamertag exchange thread. If that rule is read as stated, there is the possibility that such a thing "breaks" the rule.
If it only applies to MMOs, even MMOs that aren't competition yet, then the rule should be revised to state as such. The first sentence could be seen to be a blanket order, that even in the offtopic forums, that discussion about any game is not allowed.
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I'm sure this will get deleted, but past moderation actions have proven otherwise. Is this a change in how you guys are approaching this? Because it has happened in this very thread.
Anything that disagrees with moderator or community rep behavior, even if it's not attacking, has been deleted. Will this still be the case?
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Obviously where you saw a lack of forum rules being broken, they disagreed. Their judgment overrules yours.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I'm sure this will get deleted, but past moderation actions have proven otherwise. Is this a change in how you guys are approaching this? Because it has happened in this very thread.
Anything that disagrees with moderator or community rep behavior, even if it's not attacking, has been deleted. Will this still be the case?
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Obviously where you saw a lack of forum rules being broken, they disagreed. Their judgment overrules yours.
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Obviously that's always the case, I'm not sure where the argument is there.
The rules were not broken as stated, it goes back to the "their discretion" clause. But it also in direct conflict with what Niv is saying here. That's the clarification I am looking for.
Devil, I don't see anythign wrong with those comments. But it is those comments that end you up on a slipery slope. None of those strike me as particularly derogatory. They aren't constuctive, but not outright inflamatory either.
I guess they could be modded based on context. And that is gonna be the mods judgement. You tack those on some rant/flame war that you are writing...and that post is gone.
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I will give some examples, if they do not get deleted.
These are examples and may or may not reflect my own opinions.
I don't think Niv should be posting what come across as supportive comments on NSFW links.
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I don't believe it would be appropriate to make claims about what *anyone* should be posting about, unless the post itself is a violation of the forum rules. Its probably not explicitly barred by the rules, but in this case if you feel she is encouraging posts that themselves violate the forum rules you should actually report her and the post she is replying to.
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In my opinion Ex Libris spends too much time pandering to niche groups and not enough to the overall community.
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"Pandering" is incindiary, but outside of that I believe specifically commenting that the community reps should address certain underappreciated issues is within the bounds of the forum rules.
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I think the mods show favoritism towards certain members of the community.
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I believe this would be out of bounds without some really serious statistical proof. An anecdote would not fit that criteria.
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I think Lighthouse's avatar should be in 3-D and we should all get free 3-D glasses when we sign up for the game or else he sucks as a community rep.
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"Lighthouse's avatar should be in 3-D and all players should get 3-D glasses to appreciate it" is a suggestion. Its acceptable. "Otherwise he sucks" is not acceptable, anymore than it would be for me to say "Devilchilde should love Invuln tankers or he sucks as a player." That's clearly a violation of the forum rules.
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Man Koschej is crazy for playing a warshade, admitting to it, and then starting a thread about it.
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This is probably just within the limits of the forum rules. Its not a comment about moderator action because its not a moderation act. And Koschej is pretty crazy. But some other people might consider that insulting, and you should probably avoid statements like this in the general case.
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So, does this mean they are gonna actually start enforcing rules around here? How long before the Suggestions and Ideas area is safe to go into?
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It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?
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Because that conveys a notion which does not underly their intent.
You want them to state that all rules are hard, fast, impartial, and inviolate.
By the nature of the goals, that is impossible. It will always be neccessary for them to use their human judgement about what is and is not acceptable, based on principles set forth in these rules. The rules encode one hard and fast rule - whatever they decide to do, based on their human judgements, it stands. Based on that one rule, its their way or the highway, because this is their house they built, and we're guests.
The rest of the rules are there to point out a few specific examples of things they're going to be looking for or types of behavior they don't want to see. Beyond that it's a judgement call, both on our part as posters and their part as moderators.
Saying it the way you seem to want them to - that this is a subjective order and watever they decide is what flies - would carry a pejorative connotation that they don't intend.
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Well said!
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Their intent is not to act as cruel, arbitrary dictators. They want guests in their house, and poorly treated guests leave.
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Also, we don't want current guest's to engage in actions that cause other guests to leave.
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But you would rather current guest's take their "dirty laundry" with the Community team and air it on other forums? That is the part I do not understand, why not have a place here to do that. Keep it in line of course, but have that option. I wouldn't want it creeping across other gaming forums and turning off potential new customers.
You can't even give any sort of negative feedback on the surveys. It's an odd situation, since most companies would use negative feedback to find ways to improve themselves. Negative, but constructive, feedback does wonders for any company who cares at all about customer service.
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The problem is people don't "keep it in line". I've been watching the forums deteriorate at a rapid pace over the last 3+ years to where anyone who posts to a topic with an opposing view to the majority is quickly flamed, harassed, and belittled in a way I haven't seen since high school. It's really not an appropriate way for any adult to act, yet it has become the norm. I like a spirited debate, but that doesn't seem possible anymore as people very quickly move from discussion to personal attack and character assassination, and it's the reason I don't really post much anymore. I don't see the point if I'm just going to get verbally assaulted for having a differing opinion or chose to play devil's advocate.
I mean just look at the recent flood of posts regarding the change to Energy Transfer. It's literally impossible to sit down and read the entirety of these threads as the vast majority of the posts are little more than personal rants full of hyperbolic nonsense. And heaven help the poor souls that chimed in with "well I tested it myself and it's really not that bad..."
Those who have been here long enough should well remember CuppaJo, who though well-beloved also carried a very large, heavy ban stick, and wasn't afraid to use it. People knew exactly where the line was and that the line was going to be enforced. And the forums were a better place for it. But once the job title was elevated to Community Rep, and involved a lot more than policing the forums, things got way out of hand. So I'm glad to see we now again have dedicated moderators who will be strictly enforcing the rules. It really does make the forums a better place for everyone.
As for all the people complaining about how "vague" the rules seem, com'n, let's grow up a bit. Anyone over the age of 10 should know what's appropriate to say in public and what's not. And forums like this are very much public places. If you even have to question if something you've written is inappropriate, chances are IT IS and you shouldn't post it. Likewise, if it's something you wouldn't comfortably be able to say at the dinner table, at a holiday or party, in the middle of a supermarket, or would make your grandma pull you into the bathroom by the ear with a bar of soap in her hand, again, probably not a good idea to hit the "ok, submit" button.
And if by chance you happen to post something you honestly felt was ok but turns out not to be, you'll first be notified with a warning and an explanation. That should be enough for most people to get a pretty clear idea of where the line is. If not there will likely be a swinging ban stick in your future. While it may seem harsh to you, the rest of us will be better for it. If you can't play nicely in the sandbox, teacher isn't going to let you partake in recess...
Today. I think this is going active today.
The mods are active now. Seen more than a few posts, some in this thread, already deleted. They needed to be deleted if you ask me, they were definitely inflammatory comments in general. They didn't last long, like 20 mins tops. Seen a thread go bye bye too but it was clearly against forum rules. So, it maybe just a matter of time until they get the whole forum under control.
But I would think today you would be fine. Stay on topic, be polite, curteous, and clean, and you should have no problems.
Edited for clarity.
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It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?
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Because that conveys a notion which does not underly their intent.
You want them to state that all rules are hard, fast, impartial, and inviolate.
By the nature of the goals, that is impossible. It will always be neccessary for them to use their human judgement about what is and is not acceptable, based on principles set forth in these rules. The rules encode one hard and fast rule - whatever they decide to do, based on their human judgements, it stands. Based on that one rule, its their way or the highway, because this is their house they built, and we're guests.
The rest of the rules are there to point out a few specific examples of things they're going to be looking for or types of behavior they don't want to see. Beyond that it's a judgement call, both on our part as posters and their part as moderators.
Saying it the way you seem to want them to - that this is a subjective order and watever they decide is what flies - would carry a pejorative connotation that they don't intend.
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Well said!
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Their intent is not to act as cruel, arbitrary dictators. They want guests in their house, and poorly treated guests leave.
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Also, we don't want current guest's to engage in actions that cause other guests to leave.
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Lighthouse's comments immediately brought to mind an image of Dave Chappelle as Rick James grinding his muddy boots into Charlie Murphy's suede couch....ahh, the sweet lulz
That would be good. I use to be on staff for a bigger message board than this one, with commercial involvement and we ran a much tighter ship than this place.
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I am trying to get clarification on what is ok to say and what is going to get deleted. If I made posts that fit into the discussion, and those posts were not flaming, attacking, insulting, or anything of that nature and they were deleted,and not part of a chain that was deleted, I want to know what crossed the line.
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If you get directly mod smacked you will get either a PM or an email about it. The mods don't just mysteriously delete a post. If you post just disappears it was part of a chain that had an earlier post in it deleted by the mods.
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Clarification: If I'm having a conversation with a Dev, Community Manager, or Moderator and they give information that I feel would be useful to the community: IE a technical issue workaround, news of new content, etc. --wouldn't it be appropriate to post that? Or do you want us to ask first? Thanks.
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Just as a standing rule, PMs from me can generally be quoted and put up on the forums. The cases where this is not true, I always include a comment to that effect in the PM, be it "Sub-rosa", "between you and I", "Please, don't publicize this." or some variation thereof. That has been my policy since I became a "red name" and so far, no one has violated it, to my knowledge. I'd be quite cross if someone did, however!
EDIT: To be on the safe side, it is ALWAYS proper to ask for permission before disseminating private correspondence.
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In another forum I frequent, it's policy that both parties must agree to have PMs between them publicized. So unless you specifically (and publicly) said I could repeat what you said in a PM to me, I couldn't repeat it.
That's the rule I follow here. As such, none of the Dev PMs I've received have been repeated. None of those said I could repeat it.
PM does mean Private Message and Private means just that. That's why I follow this.
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It seems to me that the reply-chain trees are causing a lot of confusion, especially since the default forum settings just show one long thread instead of the trees.
Perhaps in order to cut back on "collateral damage" mods could edit and blank out a rule breaking post instead of deleting it?
"It's best not to ask questions. You might get answers."
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It seems to me that the reply-chain trees are causing a lot of confusion, especially since the default forum settings just show one long thread instead of the trees.
Perhaps in order to cut back on "collateral damage" mods could edit and blank out a rule breaking post instead of deleting it?
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The difficulty with that is it gives fuel to talk about moderation. We'd rather have the post "dissapear" than have some poster's name floating there with < Moderated deleted post > on it. It reminds everyone that the guy got mod smacked and makes everyone eyeball it wondering what they did, etc. Everyone loves the drama, afterall!
It is a pity that the forum post remove process acts the way it does. We're working on some ways to correct that in the future, but don't have any plans ready yet for public announcement.
Lighthouse
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If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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....and a lot of these rules are unnecessary, but for us to be as consistent as possible in our moderation, we needed to update things. By having these rules in place, if it ever becomes an issue, it allows us to reference a broken rule rather than make our moderation seem like an arbitrary decision.
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But... If the Rules themselves are completely Nebulous and Arbitrary, then so is the Moderation.
Let's FULLY review what from here-on-out shall be referred to infamously as "RULE 5":
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5. Non-Constructive posts are prohibited.
Below is a list of examples of non-constructive posts. As a rule, non-constructive posting is not permitted.<ul type="square">
[*] Spam is considered to be repetitive posting of the same topic or text or nonsensical posts that have no substance and are often designed to annoy other forum users.
[*] Bumping posts in order to keep them near the top of the list is also prohibited. Petitions or "/signed" posts are a version of bumping and likewise are not permitted.
[*] Do not create threads/posts to petition for game features, additions, changes, or other issues. You may post suggestions and/or ideas to the boards, but you may not create a petition for others to sign. This is bumping in disguise and will not be allowed.
[*] Pyramid quoting is a response to a forum thread which contains the quotes of four or more previous posters, sometimes with additional spaces added unnecessarily.
[*] As a courtesy to others before beginning a new thread, please look to see if an active thread on that topic has already been established. If so, place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forum needlessly and many good ideas may be lost. Use the search link to keep discussions about one topic to one thread only.
[*] Negative feedback can be very useful, provided that it is presented in a civil, factual manner. Tell us what you don't like and why and how you feel it could be improved. Posts that are insulting and rude may be deleted, no matter how valid the ideas behind them may be.
[*] A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents
[*] "NERF X!" threads are removed for much the same reason as "I'm leaving" threads. They can turn into threads with little or no constructive information.
[*] False obituary threads are considered highly improper, and knowingly posting false news of a players real-life death may result in a ban of both your forum account and your game account.
[*] Threads that make threats or use other combative language are not allowed. If you ask a question on the board, be aware that questions on our boards are most commonly answered by the community. Demands for answers from NCsoft are not permitted, however we may often address some questions and concerns with an official topic. In the event of legitimate emergencies, or other unprecedented scenarios, we will endeavor to provide comments, even if it is only to state that there is no officially available information.[/list]
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...Many of these "naughty" things are THOROUGHLY entrenched in our American culture and come out as a reflex reaction more than a cognitive process. They're not just political rationale, they're often the first 'well' we go to when we must challenge BAD ideas. And then to solidify the problems with this approach, an almost retro-active penalty is applied through "RULE 16" to enforce this over-reaching RULE 5.
I'm not saying that You Mods are not totally in your right to enforce it. ...The only point I wish to make is that it might be a BAD BUSINESS DECISION if it's seen by enough people to be randomly Dictatorial and therefore ANTI-AMERICAN. This country was built on conscientious objections and scofflaws. Insta-Banning such people may only endear them more as Martyrs and eventually have the opposite of the desired effect if things are taken too far. (and I can almost guarantee they will be)
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Just as a standing rule, PMs from me can generally be quoted and put up on the forums.
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And that, Castle, is part of why we love you.
(And abuse you, but that's just one of the ways we show our love.)
_Il_,
if you have managed to catch some of this thread, and saw some of the post they smacked, they are using good judgement. I am not allowed to tell you who and what was smacked, but....Honestly. I have seen atleast three of the post that got smacked, and smacking those posts, really did keep the thread on track and eliminate alot of issues.
Anti American, my tush. That whole anti-american thing is a major leap.
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Just as a standing rule, PMs from me can generally be quoted and put up on the forums.
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And that, Castle, is part of why we love you.
(And abuse you, but that's just one of the ways we show our love.)
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That was Castle?
/scrolls back up....
/Looks at his PMs...
Nahh, can't do it. I'll still need direct permission.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I'm not saying that You Mods are not totally in your right to enforce it. ...The only point I wish to make is that it might be a BAD BUSINESS DECISION if it's seen by enough people to be randomly Dictatorial and therefore ANTI-AMERICAN. This country was built on conscientious objections and scofflaws. Insta-Banning such people may only endear them more as Martyrs and eventually have the opposite of the desired effect if things are taken too far. (and I can almost guarantee they will be)
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Great Satire! You must watch Colbert.
Be well, people of CoH.
Watch it? I LIVE it
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I'm not saying that You Mods are not totally in your right to enforce it. ...The only point I wish to make is that it might be a BAD BUSINESS DECISION if it's seen by enough people to be randomly Dictatorial and therefore ANTI-AMERICAN. This country was built on conscientious objections and scofflaws. Insta-Banning such people may only endear them more as Martyrs and eventually have the opposite of the desired effect if things are taken too far. (and I can almost guarantee they will be)
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Excellent diversionary tactic except:
-No one will miss any forum trolls, posters will just go back to playing/life occupations/posting. If more trolls pipe up, the banstick will come down on them too. If the mods decide this is it, trolls can't win, period.
-This isn't "America", it's an MMO with a Staff enforcing the rules. We're posting here at THEIR leisure. We aren't entitled to post here anymore we are entitled to our ingame loot, it's their stuff they lend to us. 
But, feel free to make yourself a martyr for showing up the moderators and the rules...
P.S. Thanks for the update Castle, I generally keep communication from Devs on the downlow, hope to hear more from you guys on Issue 13. 
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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I will say this.
I just deliberately started pyramiding a topic that was going dangerously south with two other players. One of the other players was pyramiding, to push it along to getting mod smacked. It was going south fast. I really didn't want to do the pyramiding, but.......it was going way south and had been on the edge for a while. It had gone way down hill, and needed to be moded....like right then.
And it was locked in under 5-10 minutes. 10 minutes later, and the rant part has been deleted but remains locked. Which is fine. Deliberately pyramiding the ranting, and got it locked and deleted. Woot! TY! Hopefully and end to the flame wars. Thank you.
GJ mods, I do think this change in the forums rules will have the effects you wanted. A more curteous, clean and productive change on the forums.
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Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.
You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.
If Kos and Niv post in some pointless thread about something voicing their opinion that has nothing to do with NCSoft, I am sure you are free to disagree with them.
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I meant the Devs and the Community Team/anyone with a red name. Hope that clears it up for you Devil.
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I'm sure this will get deleted, but past moderation actions have proven otherwise. Is this a change in how you guys are approaching this? Because it has happened in this very thread.
Anything that disagrees with moderator or community rep behavior, even if it's not attacking, has been deleted. Will this still be the case?