Discussion: Forum Rules Revision
By
Absinth_Incubus,
Posted on: 2008-07-21 13:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
Just to clarify, that only applies to the Devs, correct?
Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?
And just as a general FYI excessive use of the notify moderator button can get you in trouble as well. Even if it's reporting valid infractions of the forum rules.
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Just to clarify, that only applies to the Devs, correct?
Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?
And just as a general FYI excessive use of the notify moderator button can get you in trouble as well. Even if it's reporting valid infractions of the forum rules.
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To repeat the above, adding in a clarification:
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Yes, it's ok to disagree with the devs or community team as long as you're not trolling/flamming/insulting/being a wacky nutcase/whatever else.
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Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
What I don't like is that it's up to the discretion of the mods. I don't think anyone would have a problem if all profanity was removed. The problems with some of the rules is that it allows for gray area. Profanity and personal attacks should be easy to remove not complicated. If something gets censored remove it and PM the poster with a generic message
"We're sorry this post was deleted profanity is not allowed on these forums"
And with personal attacks do something similar:
"We're sorry this post was deleted it contained personal attacks on user name."
And personal attacks should not include
"I don't like how the mods are handling forum rules, I think they should be more black and white and expand on their communication with those who get moded. I know they have a lot to do but I think the system could be streamlined a little more and the community could be improved."
I don't mind if this is moded however
"The forum mods don't do their job."
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Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?
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I doubt it. As long as those disagreements are also controlled and lacking in insults and other such silliness.
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And just as a general FYI excessive use of the notify moderator button can get you in trouble as well. Even if it's reporting valid infractions of the forum rules.
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I'll take that chance.
Be well, people of CoH.
I guess that our issue is that this list invalidates itself. As Koschej pointed out, all of these 'rules' are merely guidelines aside from #17. That is the only rule that is actually enforced. The rest of them may or may not be enforced based on the whims of that particular rule. No place in the rules is it mentioned that Pwnz is immune. No place in there is the fact that some forms of /signed are acceptable mentioned. No place in there is any form of actual rule structure really set forth aside from the 'proprietary rule' as Koschej called it.
Yet we are still presented with the impression that board rules are enforced equally and fairly, neither of which is so much as implied after Koschej's clarification of:
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As for consistency, I will remind you once again that these are proprietary forums and we can allow or disallow any posts on these forums at our discretion. The other rules are the guidelines to be followed, the proprietary rule is the overall rule there.
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If that's the actual governing rule of the forums and the others are overridden with out so much as a cursory thought whenever this fact is called into play then why continue attempting to make these rules? If these are meant to be guidelines then should not this overriding rule be the single most important thing on the page by appearance rather than being presented as simply another rule with less impact given to it thanks to its placement so far down the list?
Enforcement on this board has never felt truly impartial, and I've never suspected it actually was. The new clarifications essentially state that they were never intended to be. If this is the case could that fact be made more apparent instead of constantly justifying and re-justifying actions though knots of circular logic?
It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?
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Ok, I'll be the first to admit that I'll be as happy as anyone else to not have to see all 25 threads upset at the EM Nerf at the top of the forums 24/7. However, are we still allowed to post disagreements with dev decisions as long as it's done in a calm, courteous and nonflamable manner?
I'm being serious here. I'm really not trying to be a troll. I'd really like someone to tell me:
1) Yes, it's ok to disagree with the devs as long as you're not trolling/flamming/insulting/being a wacky nutcase/whatever else.
OR
2) No. You are not allowed to disagree with any redname on these forums.
I know this may seem kinda silly, but from what I've read in this thread it's starting to look to me like the answer might very well be #2.
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I've read nothing in the thread that would lead me to believe that disagreeing with the devs would be disallowed. If I did read such a thing, I would currently be disagreeing with it. In fact since the updated rules specifically state:
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Negative feedback can be very useful, provided that it is presented in a civil, factual manner. Tell us what you don't like and why and how you feel it could be improved. Posts that are insulting and rude may be deleted, no matter how valid the ideas behind them may be.
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I don't see how anyone could possibly deduce that objective criticism would be censored.
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Thank you both for responding to my question.
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However, are we still allowed to post disagreements with dev decisions as long as it's done in a calm, courteous and nonflamable manner?
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Absolutely.
You answered that well yourself.
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Yes, it's ok to disagree with the devs as long as you're not trolling/flamming/insulting/being a wacky nutcase/whatever else.
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That is just flawless. I just laugherd out loud on that one. GJ there! 
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It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?
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Because that conveys a notion which does not underly their intent.
You want them to state that all rules are hard, fast, impartial, and inviolate.
By the nature of the goals, that is impossible. It will always be neccessary for them to use their human judgement about what is and is not acceptable, based on principles set forth in these rules. The rules encode one hard and fast rule - whatever they decide to do, based on their human judgements, it stands. Based on that one rule, its their way or the highway, because this is their house they built, and we're guests.
The rest of the rules are there to point out a few specific examples of things they're going to be looking for or types of behavior they don't want to see. Beyond that it's a judgement call, both on our part as posters and their part as moderators.
Saying it the way you seem to want them to - that this is a subjective order and watever they decide is what flies - would carry a pejorative connotation that they don't intend. Their intent is not to act as cruel, arbitrary dictators. They want guests in their house, and poorly treated guests leave.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
LH, I would also like to suggest the following:
* A rule against post padding. Perhaps this already falls under fluff, but with the exception of Forum Games, making fluff replies, or replying to your own posts in series for the sole point of increasing one's post count should not be allowed, IMO.
* A rule regarding "grandstanding". Grandstanding is a mixture of a rant, post padding, lobbying, and/ or threadjacking, in order to draw attention to the posting poster. Obviously, this could be subjective, but it could be used in the most obvious cases.
Additionally, when the new forums come into play, when a post is marked for moderation by a user, will there be any text input to let the moderator know why you're marking it form moderation? That would cut out a lot of ambiguity in hitting the "Notify Moderator" button.
No, I'm asking for an overriding bulletin of the nature of:
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[b]This is a proprietary board and all rules are subject to interpretation by the moderation staff. Any and all posts may be removed or allowed by NCSoft and its staff.
The general guidelines governing most of these decisions are as follows:
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That note at the top of the rules clarifies the guideline, rather than rule based, structure of moderation and action on these forums. The current structure of putting that far down the list with no special highlighting creates a false impression that every other rule is equally important as that one.
Please do not attempt to add meaning to what I've written or what I want. I put the words I mean to be there and am happy to clarify when someone has a question about my meaning. Rarely do I need a mouthpiece to assemble my words for me.
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It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?
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Because that conveys a notion which does not underly their intent.
You want them to state that all rules are hard, fast, impartial, and inviolate.
By the nature of the goals, that is impossible. It will always be neccessary for them to use their human judgement about what is and is not acceptable, based on principles set forth in these rules. The rules encode one hard and fast rule - whatever they decide to do, based on their human judgements, it stands. Based on that one rule, its their way or the highway, because this is their house they built, and we're guests.
The rest of the rules are there to point out a few specific examples of things they're going to be looking for or types of behavior they don't want to see. Beyond that it's a judgement call, both on our part as posters and their part as moderators.
Saying it the way you seem to want them to - that this is a subjective order and watever they decide is what flies - would carry a pejorative connotation that they don't intend.
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Well said!
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Their intent is not to act as cruel, arbitrary dictators. They want guests in their house, and poorly treated guests leave.
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Also, we don't want current guest's to engage in actions that cause other guests to leave.
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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This is a proprietary board and all rules are subject to interpretation by the moderation staff. Any and all posts may be removed or allowed by NCSoft and its staff.
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I don't understand why you need this when it's already understood to be the case.
Be well, people of CoH.
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What I don't like is that it's up to the discretion of the mods. I don't think anyone would have a problem if all profanity was removed. The problems with some of the rules is that it allows for gray area.
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There will always be a grey area when it comes to any forum moderation. I moderated my company's forums for a few years, and it was often a difficult task since frequently people make a valid point then go on to baaaarely squeak over the line expressing their feelings about something, and they go from disagreeing with a fellow user or company rep to insulting them. And no profanity was involved. So it comes down to using judgement. It doesn't help that the person whose post gets mod'd always has a feeling of righteous indignation at the mod's actions.
I've read a lot of terms of use for various forums over the years, and I don't see anything unreasonable or abnormal in the ones being discussed.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Please do not attempt to add meaning to what I've written or what I want. I put the words I mean to be there and am happy to clarify when someone has a question about my meaning. Rarely do I need a mouthpiece to assemble my words for me.
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You may put the words you meant, but those words to not neccesarily convey the intent you believe. All human communication is about interpretation. I saw meaning in your words that you say you did not intend, and I have no reason to doubt you. There is no need to respond in a way that treats me in a pejorative way for reading your post as I did. I have neither intent to act nor interest in acting as your or anyone else's mouthpiece. But I am quite interested in paying attention to percieved undertones. Perceptions can always be incorrect.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It all seems to, after reading this entire thread, boil down to that one singular rule which offers no true guidance for our actions aside from 'don't annoy the mods'. This is my concern and has been all along. If that's truly the case, then why not just call a spade a spade and say so?
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Because that conveys a notion which does not underly their intent.
You want them to state that all rules are hard, fast, impartial, and inviolate.
By the nature of the goals, that is impossible. It will always be neccessary for them to use their human judgement about what is and is not acceptable, based on principles set forth in these rules. The rules encode one hard and fast rule - whatever they decide to do, based on their human judgements, it stands. Based on that one rule, its their way or the highway, because this is their house they built, and we're guests.
The rest of the rules are there to point out a few specific examples of things they're going to be looking for or types of behavior they don't want to see. Beyond that it's a judgement call, both on our part as posters and their part as moderators.
Saying it the way you seem to want them to - that this is a subjective order and watever they decide is what flies - would carry a pejorative connotation that they don't intend.
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Well said!
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Their intent is not to act as cruel, arbitrary dictators. They want guests in their house, and poorly treated guests leave.
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Also, we don't want current guest's to engage in actions that cause other guests to leave.
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But you would rather current guest's take their "dirty laundry" with the Community team and air it on other forums? That is the part I do not understand, why not have a place here to do that. Keep it in line of course, but have that option. I wouldn't want it creeping across other gaming forums and turning off potential new customers.
You can't even give any sort of negative feedback on the surveys. It's an odd situation, since most companies would use negative feedback to find ways to improve themselves. Negative, but constructive, feedback does wonders for any company who cares at all about customer service.
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Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?
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I doubt it. As long as those disagreements are also controlled and lacking in insults and other such silliness.
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LH's post above yours seems to say I was right. Though it is a bit unclear.
Thanks, Castle. The communications rule is most problematical to me. Taking the rule by it's word, a post about "I heard from Venture who was at the ComicCon party that..." or even "I got a chance to ask Positron about this at the party...". Indeed, it could even go as far as "Hey, ManOfManyChars just got his latest 50 last night!"
And as good as it is for Castle to say that any PM can be posted...do the moderators know that? If I ask a question, post the answer, do the moderators wait for Castle to complain, or do they take action on their own?
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LH's post above yours seems to say I was right. Though it is a bit unclear.
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I don't understand. That post states:
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Yes, it's ok to disagree with the devs or community team as long as you're not trolling/flamming/insulting/being a wacky nutcase/whatever else.
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Disagreeing with the moderators or community team about matters of specific moderation action will almost certainly be deleted. A frank discussion about problems seen with general trends in moderation? They're saying that shouldn't be.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Disagreeing with the moderators or Community Reps will be deleted?
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I doubt it. As long as those disagreements are also controlled and lacking in insults and other such silliness.
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LH's post above yours seems to say I was right. Though it is a bit unclear.
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I am unsure how LH's post could have possibly been read to imply that you are right. Niv's last few posts have specifically stated that you are wrong.
Be well, people of CoH.
Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.
You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.
If Kos and Niv post in some pointless thread about something voicing their opinion that has nothing to do with NCSoft, I am sure you are free to disagree with them.
Could I get a clarification on this rule?
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8. Compare/Contrast and Off-topic threads.
Posts about other games or game companies, products or services not related to City of Heroes/Villains are not permitted in any of these forums. However, we do allow a wider variety of discussion topics in the Comic and Hero/Villain Culture forum and on the server forums. Non disruptive off topic discussion in those forums fits with the community of posters who frequent them. However discussion of competitive products/games (other MMO games), political, religious, or other volatile or disruptive topics will be removed.
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Is this a blanket order that discussion about any game, including offline, single-player (or multiplayer like Halo 3) Wii/360/PS3/PC games is verboten?
Or does it only apply to MMOs? Even MMOs that are not yet on the market, which would necessitate that they aren't competition yet. Once they go live, ya, then they would count as competition. But if they've got a year+ to go before they even enter Closed Beta, why is that discouraged, when everything about them is speculation?
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Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.
You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.
If Kos and Niv post in some pointless thread about something voicing their opinion that has nothing to do with NCSoft, I am sure you are free to disagree with them.
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I meant the Devs and the Community Team/anyone with a red name. Hope that clears it up for you Devil.
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Niv's posts only refer to the Devs, which is why I asked what I did.
You can discuss rules, but not moderator actions. You can disagree with Devs, but not mods when it comes to forum moderation.
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Like I said, they've made clear that trying to debate specific moderation activities is off-limits.
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Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread that has been removed or subject to other moderation, feel free to contact a moderator to discuss it.
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That's means you can't make a post along the lines of "Moderator4 deleted my post without any justification."
Honestly, it's going to be very hard for you to make a post about even broad patterns of problems with moderation. Not just because of the rules, but because it's nearly impossible to make such a thread without it devolving into a cesspool of non-constructive negativity. If we could guarantee constructive negativity it might be different.
Making such discussions into threads instead of PMs seems only to be valuable in an effort to drag the perceived problem(s) into the court of public opinion. But these forums aren't supposed to be a court of public opinion.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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However, are we still allowed to post disagreements with dev decisions as long as it's done in a calm, courteous and nonflamable manner?
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Absolutely.
You answered that well yourself.
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Yes, it's ok to disagree with the devs as long as you're not trolling/flamming/insulting/being a wacky nutcase/whatever else.
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