Why I Can't Convince My Friends to Play CoX
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-03-05 24:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The early mission confusion, I can certainly agree with. Almost all new players seem to have trouble with this.
The vet rewards ? Can't get to worked up about it. None are game breaking with most of them being free respecs and costume changes, but I can see the envy being a problem.
The only people I have tried to get to play have played because of the incredibly open nature of the character customization.
The Avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.
Blue Spot, Son Spot, Cyan Siren, Polar Gale, Scarlett Fury, Stygian Warlock, Lady Lilac, Elsbeth (villian), Furious Squirrel (villian)
Infinity server
<QR>
Thanks for the post, Aidalyn, and for helping in Paragon City.
Wish I could advise you on how to get/keep your friends interested, but it's a trick I've yet to learn myself. When I bring it up to people I think might enjoy it, they tend to be turned off by the "MMO-ness" of it, kneejerking a reply like "Oh I won't have time for THAT.".
I think we all know that CoX is one of the most casual-friendly games out there, which is something that DOES work in its favor.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie
Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608
Well you were sold on the game, so maybe it doesn't seem to be the games problem. Maybe this just isn't the game for your friends. Sure there are flaws. All games have them. Get your friends in game, making characters and then you, the vet of the bunch can make their awkward transition easier. Next thing you know they are in.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
[ QUOTE ]
Hello, everyone. I recently joined the world of City of Heroes just before Christmas, and I have been playing for a couple months now. A friend and co-worker of mine had just started a free trial, and without trying he had accidentally talked me into playing as well. After playing for a couple weeks together, our gaming paths split: he quit the game and I stayed. Ever since, I have not been able to convince him or anyone else I know to play the game. I'm curious to see if others have had experiences similar to mine, and so listed below are the reasons my friends refuse to play:
1. The gameplay is challenging, awkward, and frustrating for new players
The first level tutorial was easy enough for me to work my way through, and it made for a decent first impression. After that, my impression of the game took an immediate nosedive. When I got my first mission in Atlas Park, I was pointed to a mission door in a far corner of the map, tucked behind a web of level 5-6 lieutenant spawns showing a nerve-wracking display of purple colored names. I thought to myself, "There's no way I can fight these guys yet, so that must not be an area I'm supposed to enter right now." Instead, I spent a couple hours searching the streets for even con mobs to fight so I could level up to a more appropriate level for getting to my mission. When I finally soloed my way to the mission door, all the enemies inside were extremely weak, giving little XP at all. In the end, it actually took me several days to realize:
A. I can Sprint past the harder mobs to get to the door. Even still, this is counter-intuitive and makes me feel less like a hero and more like a coward.
B. Door missions spawn mobs relative to the level you had when you accepted the mission, making it a reliable option for finding appropriate level challenges.
Eventually, I finally made it to level 5. My contact told me to see someone in King's Row, who then told me to see -- you guessed it! -- Lt. David Wincott in the Hollows. His first mission for me: defeat 10 Outcasts. The problem: Outcasts near the area range from levels 6-9 in groups of 7-10 members, often including several lieutenants and bosses. My scrapper-based strategy consisted of taking on a group, trying to kill one or two before dying, and running from the hospital in Atlas Park back to the zone to rinse and repeat. Second mission: defeat 10 Trolls. /facepalm
Even after completing the Trolls mission with my friend, we still died several times just trying to make our way through the mob-heavy, obstruction-infested zone to the next few door missions. And during this time, it never occurred to us that we could go back to the contact in King's Row for different missions. We just thought we were where we were supposed to be.
With as much difficulty as we were having with regular missions, radio missions weren't even a consideration. I was simply too intimidated to even want to try these "safeguard missions," which sounded far more complicated. If I had known I could get a free temporary travel power out of it, I might have put more effort into trying it. But instead, I spent a lot of time running back and forth between zones for different missions, hoping I could eventually get to level 14 and get my travel power.
Unfortunately, my friend never made it that far. At level 11, he found his 3 mission slots filled with the Frostfire mission (which he tried but could not beat), a "Beat X number of Type mobs," most of which were too high a level for him or hard to find in the zone, and a door mission which spawned Lt's one level higher than him that he could not defeat. He died frequently within a short timeframe attempting any of these missions, and with the gloomy prospect of a growing debt bar, he finally gave up. He called that day his "worst MMORPG experience ever," and he never logged in again. He now refers to the game as "City of Hospital," and I can't even share with him the new adventures I've had in the game because he's no longer interested in it.
2. Veteran Rewards and optional expansions alienate new players
A few times now, I've tried to tell my friends and co-workers something new I've discovered about this game only to realize how dumb it actually sounds after I've said it out loud.
"Hey, guess what? City of Heroes has a new expansion pack out. It's only $10! It looks like it features.... a wedding dress. And a tux. And a couple redesigns of pre-existing costumes. Umm... and an emote to throw rice at people?"
"Oh, it looks like City of Heroes just released a new pet that buffs you. To get it.... you have to keep playing the game for four years."
Quite frankly, I did not win anyone over to the game explaining these features. In fact, I think I lost a little credibility. They laughed at the idea of the Wedding Expansion Pack, and subsequently asked, "You mean I would have to pay the monthly subscription AND pay extra for every little extra thing?" We all agreed such a set of features should really either be included with the monthly subscription or added into a bigger expansion that offered more options.
And the concept of veteran rewards is just absolutely heartbreaking for a new player, myself included, for two reasons:
A. No amount of effort on my part will unlock these any faster, and the time to wait for particular items of interest is substantial! This leaves us in a perpetual state of unhealthy "reward envy," and knowing a particular reward is so far out of our reach and beyond our control makes the game less appealing to play.
B. The rewards keep accumulating at the top end, meaning a new player will never be able to catch up to older players. This provokes feelings of being left out and unwanted, and it makes me feel as if I am substantially less valuable to the developers simply because I wasn't playing since the first day of release. Since I can never catch up to the ranks of the more valuable subscribers of this game, it's natural that I would probably be more likely to give up and join on another game's release instead, especially if my friends do as well.
I really do respect the idea that people who have been faithful subscribers to this game for four years are given something special for their continued business. But I have to imagine this business model rewards its existing players at the expense of prospective new ones. Plus, veterans in the top subscription tier do not have to suffer the anxiety of anticipation of a particular reward. Each new reward is revealed just before it is released to them, whereas newer players suffer through the news thinking, "Well, that's another thing I won't have for four more years. Whoop-di-doo." Essentially, each new reward is punishing players again for not being a subscriber on Day 1. From this end of being four years behind the leaders, if something really enticing comes out as a new reward, I am probably more likely to quit the game out of spite than to be motivated to maintain my subscription indefinitely. In essence, I'm actually hoping each new vet reward is worthless so I am free to enjoy the rest of the game.
In Conclusion:
I really do like this game. I've had a lot of fun making new characters, and I've found an awesome group with the Angry/Jaded Angels on Virtue (you guys rock!). I've enjoyed being a hero and a villain, and my new broadsword/willpower scrapper is really fun to play! I've also learned a lot about the game since then (although I am far from an expert), I have led a few radio mission teams, and I just recently soloed my first Invincible! However, my biggest regret is that I cannot convince other real life friends to join because of the reasons mentioned above, and I worry that their reactions are similar to other new player experiences around the world. For the sake of this game and the hard work of the developers behind it, I want it to continue growing.
Thank you for reading this far, and I apologize for the length of this post. Ultimately, I would like to make this perspective useful in posting ideas to the suggestions forum, but I'm interested first in knowing how many others have had similar experiences.
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Yours is a more nicely expressed attempt than most to try to get the devs to release the vet rewards to everyone, but your case has been made by others numerous times, just not as well composed.
Here's my answer: The vet rewards are not overpowering or necessary, everyone gets them at precisely the same rate, this game could be around for 10-20 years or more so a 4 year reward is not out of range to anyone joining the game now, and why you are mentioning them at all to your friends escapes me.
Let's examine this comment: "Quite frankly, I did not win anyone over to the game explaining these features."
So don't explain them. Explain all of the zillions of bigger and better reasons to play this game. Vet rewards are a minor perk, they are nice little gifts for sticking around.
And this comment: "...I am probably more likely to quit the game out of spite than to be motivated to maintain my subscription indefinitely."
Please don't blame the veteran reward program for your personal emotional reaction. Rather than try to force the world to bend to your comfort level, adjust your comfort level. It's easier and it's less stress and strain on everyone else.
For example, I won't get the 60 month vet reward for 14 more months. I bet it will be cool. I will comfortably forget about that reward until then.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
Welcome to the game!
It's a great game but it does have its weaknesses. Difficulty to get to mission doors was a big one for me when I was new. Doors that are difficult to get to due to map geometry (I'm looking at you, Faultline!) are a continuing problem. It's not a challenge, it's a frustration.
You and your buddy's experiences would have been better if you teamed, not just with each other but other players, too. In the Hollows, especially. Blueside teaming is more or less a given. Only Scrappers solo with any reliability and speed on blueside.
And yes, the Wedding Pack was kinda silly. AT $10, it's more than a little ridiculous. Have micro-transactions or a subscription fee, not both.
Vet rewards are a double-edged sword. They want to keep the vets. And this game holds onto its vets better than any other MMO in MMO history, which is a tribute to how good it really is despite some flaws. But yes, new players certainly can gain a sense of frustration that they'll never catch up to the "haves" from it. Angelic and Demonic wings were especially problematic for me. When they finally came it was very anti-climactic. They had caused me more frustration than they were worth.
Sorry to hear your friends are now close-minded to the idea the game. My friends I joined with are also gone (part of what taught me to solo 99% of the time lol). Give it some time, and try again in a couple of months. Make sure to get onto a full team with them and give them the benefit of your experience. You just might win them over yet!
Despite the flaws being discussed here, the game really does have many good points, many more good than bad.
And once you're more experienced yourself, role a Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper. Or better yet, come to the redside and try out Brutes. If you like Scrappers, Brutes are amazing!
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
I can sort of understand how the early game hero-side could turn people off. That first mission way over with all the purple guys IS a bit annoying. To me, it is just part of learning aggro management. I know my first few times through, I headed to that mission like I was Shaggy being chased by the ice-cream phantom! Not particularly heroic. 
The one thing that I, and I'm sure many others, would like, is for them to make it clear that you do NOT have to actually do the Hollows arcs, and for them to NOT make going to Wincott be a mandatory mission no matter what contact you go to at level 5. For me personally, when I make a new character, right around the time I hit level 3 or 4, I run over to the Hollows and talk to Wincott right then so I don't have to get that silly mission.
The Hollows, although it really IS a great zone with a great storyline, is just NOT friendly to people at the level they are sent there at. No travel power, HUGE zone, a big freaking pit that is a royal pain to get out of if you have no travel power, and enemies that are way WAY higher than you. The only positive thing is, at least you generally are too low to get debt. It can get almost comical trying to get to your missions. I remember a time when a LOT of people would use Hover to go all the way across the zone. Took forever, but was still faster than "run, die, go to AP, back to Hollows, run, die, etc" Like that first mission in AP though, the Hollows is FANTASTIC for learning aggro management, and navigation. It is just a really tough school to get pushed into.
I can't tell you how many people I have run into that think you HAVE to do the Hollows missions. You can eat up a lot of levels in the Hollows and miss out on other good content.
Also remember that the Drop Mission feature is your friend. Especially since the timer is now once every 3 days you can drop a mission.
I really never got the feeling that the game itself was too complicated. How most powers worked made sense to me, movement was simple enough, damage types... I don't know. It all seemed pretty intuitive to me. Especially considering some of the other MMO's out there.
Debt is also a pretty minor penalty compared to a lot of other MMO's. We have a debt cap, so you can never get TOO much debt, and the amount of debt you get will be dropping even more soon. I don't think that was part of the 11.5 patch anyway. Paying off debt is relatively fast, especially if you team a lot, and the entire time you are working off debt, you are STILL advancing.
As for the Vet rewards... well, that is kind of a no-win situation for the Devs, and gets argued about all the time around here. Think about it this way though, most of the Vet rewards are NOT particularly great. I have the 33 month reward on my account. Out of all the rewards I have gotten, the only ones that I feel are worth anything to me, is the Sands of Mu temp power, and the Nemesis Staff temp power. Oh yeah, and the base teleporter. That one I like a lot. The rest of it, meh. Don't really care about wings, or trenchcoats, or kilts or bellyshirts. The costume change tokens and Respecs? I have never once used any of them on any character I have.
I can understand the feeling of NEVER being able to get them if you came to the game late, but honestly, it isn't like you are missing out on much. Even the Nemesis staff and Sands of Mu powers aren't all that great. You can't enhance them, so Sands of Mu in particular, becomes a nice way to fan your enemies. It's nice when it hits, but it isn't like it gives that much actual help.
I know it can be hard to get other people into the game. The only thing I can say is, if you can get them to try it, be sure to have a known team of people rather than a PUG. Things are more likely to run smoothly, and you can show them how much fun it really can be.
Don't get caught up in the details too much, unless you LIKE that kind of thing. You can practically put yourself on cruise control and just madly click powers till the bad guys fall down. NOT a suggestion for if you are teaming with people other than your close friends. But you can do it, and the game is fun. Or you can analyze your powers, enhancements, and the bad guys' stats and plan out your battles.
That is one of the things that just keeps me hanging around this game. There are so many ways to play the game. I can log in my kat/reg scrapper if I don't want to think, and just want to pummel stuff. Or I can log in my emp/ele defender and try to keep people buffed, healed, and drain the endurance of the bad guys. Or any of a thousand other ways to play.
-= TANSTAAFL =-
Adar - Lvl 50 Emp/Elec/Psy Defender on Guardian (411 badges)
Itsy Bitsy Slicer - Lvl 50 Kat/Reg Scrapper on Guardian
Flying-Tiger - Lvl 32 Sonic/Energy Blaster on Guardian
you know, i have certainly had my reservations with vet rewards, i dont like the fact that for things like samurai armor and wings were so far off, but the buffing pet really isnt that impressive, they have few hit points and have minor buffs, from what i hear(wont have mine till june) but a even con aoe can drop them. but yeah, vet rewards are a time honored tradition in mmo's, and outside of the vet staves, they arent that game changing. i would have done it differently, but the vet rewards arent that bad in relation to other mmos, im not sure what wow does, but i recall eq2 having some VERY good vet rewards that bordered on breaking the low game(12 slot backpack, yes please). but i dont think that anyone who dislikes the vet rewards we have will be happy with the vet rewards anywhere else. 90% of them are cosmetic or simple mechanics tokens for costumes and respecs. as for optional expansions, i dont go with you there, paid expansions are industry standard, i cant have fae if i dont buy an expansion, i cant have draeni without burning cursade, i cant have good looking faces unless i buy nightfall, it happens, again, if that bothers them here, they will be bothered in every mmo.
now, as for the low level game, i have to say, i can see why coh is a little different, for one, we can outrun enemies, i know most older "standard" mmos once you start a fight, you are stuck unless you zone or train them to the guards. also, we can face a lot more enemies than early game in other games. but i dunno, i found the early game a lot easier because of that than i did when i tried eq, FFXI and daoc, i died a hell of a lot more there in the low game. I'd say that coh isnt awkward and confusing, its that people are used to awkward and confusing setups and have to relearn it, but you cant have progress without things being unfamiliar, but without progress, you have stagnation, you have boredom...you have wow but they need to unlearn the old ways and appreciate that its easier here. tell them to ask, we havea rep for being helpful here, try that.
I dont know what to say, we get people saying this stuff a lot, and the fact is, it gets frustrating hearing people say that other games are more user friendly because they do everything the same way as everyone else, learning is NOT that damn hard, just try.
Every game takes all kinds of people. The question is when does a person fit into the game.
COH has alot to offer to the players that enjoy its structure and system.
Problem is most gamers especially when it comes to MMOs are set into the mindless sword and sorcery excessively overdone and overrun format. I have told many of my wow playing friends to enjoy their world of walking, personally I enjoy the fact the rats don't kill me cause I am that weak. The hardcore wowers usually tell me to go get on my spandex either way, people will be drawn to games that fit their joys.
With the exciting year we have coming try again in the fall with them and see if they'll try it out.
Welcome to City of X!
I can sympathize with your postition on many things that are difficult about this game. I myself am compelled every so often to rip my hair out (usually when I roll a new toon). But this game offers so many innovative and just brilliant things that so far no other MMO has even come close to it for me, and I've tried just about all of them. The inherent casual friendly nature of it grabbed me and kept me for years now.
Don't get discouraged if you can't get your friends to join. My entire Supergroup quit around ED, and I'm still here and still having fun. You'll make plenty of new friends if you just stick around a little while.
Verteran's rewards are nice...but really, from this side, they're not all that impressive or game changing. I don't think I'll ever, ever need to respec that many times, and I certainly won't need to change my costume that much. Other than that, there are only a few worth thinking about, and they'll still be there when you get to them.
I feel badly for your friend that he had a run so bad it made him quit forever. As far as I am aware, there are help channels on every server, and lots of old hands monitor them. Don't ever be shy about asking for help if you don't understand something or aren't sure how to proceed. We're not all like what you read on this board, and the game is FULL of helpful people that won't bat an eye about dropping what they're doing and giving you a hand. (at least on my server, Virtue).
So relax and enjoy. It's a great game, and it just keeps getting better.
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
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Every game takes all kinds of people. The question is when does a person fit into the game.
COH has alot to offer to the players that enjoy its structure and system.
Problem is most gamers especially when it comes to MMOs are set into the mindless sword and sorcery excessively overdone and overrun format. I have told many of my wow playing friends to enjoy their world of walking, personally I enjoy the fact the rats don't kill me cause I am that weak. The hardcore wowers usually tell me to go get on my spandex either way, people will be drawn to games that fit their joys.
With the exciting year we have coming try again in the fall with them and see if they'll try it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
RS, you summed it up very very nicely. I completely agree with everything you said.
oh and QFT/QFE
You PERCEIVE what is REAL only as it is strained through your CONSCIOUSNESS....
...but your consciousness is BIASED toward your own sense of IDENTITIY, or SELF.
Re: Gameplay issues / learning curve / missions / hazard zones
Granted, when I joined the game, I had a few real life friends who were already playing, so some of these things you learned the hard way were passed on to me by a guy sitting at the computer right next to me or through in game tells when we were at home, away from the networked computers.
That being said, the players of the game are generally nice and helpful. If you had asked in Broadcast about any of these issues ("How do I get around these +3 and +4 mobs to get to my mission door?" "Do the levels of the guys in the area reflect the levels of the guys in the mission?" God, I hate Wincott, why does <insert contact name> always send me to see him? Can't I refuse?" "How do they expect me to beat 10 Outcasts / Trolls when they are grouped together so tightly?" "How do they expect me to get to that mission door through all of these tightly packed, large groups of +6 mobs?" "How do I beat Frostfire?"), odds are there would have been somebody on who would have politely and accurately answered your question, either in private tell or broadcast if they think there might be another newb experiencing the same difficulties you are. Players in other games may play "kick the noob" if you demonstrate any ignorance of the game. That kind of idiocy is rare and frowned upon in City of Heroes.
(The answers, by the way, "Learn about aggro distance and run around them. Experiment with aggro on blue or white con minions first." "No, the mission spawns mobs roughly equal to the level you were when you accepted the mission. Some of the mobs may be +1 or -1 to you." "You can talk to Wincott yourself at level 5 and never get the mission that introduces you to him. you don't have to accept his mission if you don't want to." "The Hollows / Perez Park / Boomtown / Dark Astoria / Crey's Folly / Eden is a hazard zone, it is meant to be taken as part of a team. Two heroes working together should be able to handle an even con group of 6 fairly readily, 8 with some inspirations, and 10 with some luck or really good play." "One thing the Hollows really does force you to learn is aggro distance. With practice, you can make it from the Atlas Gate to alomst any point in the Hollows and only draw fire a couple of times. Avoid Grendel's Gulch at all costs, the Igneous WILL kill you. If you still have trouble, you could always get the jetpack from the Atlas Park Safeguard and come back." "Flux tells you that Frostfire is hard to beat, and recommends you don't tackle him solo. If you absolutely have to solo him, your best bet is to take the mission, gain a level, and then attempt it. Carry break frees and pop them before fighting him, the Ice pet he summons is a PITA, and you will die if it holds you.")
Re: Veteran Rewards
By and large, the veteran rewards are cosmetic. They don't usually make my character any better than yours, they just give me more costume / base options. I can see having "wing envy" for all those people who don't have the 15 month badge, most of the others I could (and did) wait for. Again, the people lording their vet badges over you should be rare, and the people who are going to discriminate against you on a team for your lack of same (also rare) you don't want to team with anyway. I made a character in anticipation of the Boxing costume set when it was revealed, even though I knew it would be nine months before I would get it, I never held it against the players who already had it. I had two other characters who never knew they were missing the set until it was revealed (it fits their origins, but the "wrapped fist" option worked until I got the Boxing Gloves).
Re: The Wedding Pack
We aren't paying for "every little thing." Consider it an experiment. They are offering up bits of purchasable options that they think might appeal to some of the playerbase, but not all. The general consensus from the playerbase is that some of them like the costume set, some don't, and most think they charged too much when the price is considered against the GVE items pack. Purchasable content is not unique to Cith of Heroes. We didn't have to pay for the max level bump from 40 to 50, WoW had to pay for their max level bump from 60 to 70. The great majority of City of Heroes' content upgrades are free.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
I agree that none of the vet rewards are "game-breaking." That does not mean that are not "desirable." While I don't feel the need to have every single reward available instantaneously (I could care less about the boxing set, for example, and even the new pets look too freaky for me to want to use them), I would certainly enjoy having the base teleporter, at least one vetspec, the mech armor and belly shirt costume pieces, and maybe even the wings. These are all things that would enhance my game experience by fine-tuning the design of my character, resolving a mistake in power selection, and keeping up with my SG mates when running missions. But it's not even an option for me, and there's nothing I can do about it except wait. I'm learning to live with that for now, but that doesn't mean it's not rather disappointing.
Also, there is a big difference between the top tier subscribers and the newer players as far as these rewards are received, thanks to that anticipation factor. You may not get the 60 month reward for 14 more months, but it doesn't bother you because you don't know what you're missing and no one else has it yet. The top tier subscribers will usually receive the newest reward almost immediately after it is announced and released, and when they do, it is probably refreshingly new and fun to try and use. For newer subscribers, each announcement is a taunt of something they can't have and yet will see from other players over and over again so that by the time they get it, the value of the reward will be severely diminished.
Your mileage may vary, but I don't want to be taunted with a display of something I can't have for four years..... every three months. So I have to imagine this is a business model that will only get worse exponentially as it progresses until either new sign-ups disappear completely and the game perpetuates solely on currently existing customers until they all quit or die out...... or the system changes. It's not just about me -- it's the new customer base I'm concerned about.
Thank you for all the kind comments about the way I tried to compose this write-up. And I did take a MA/SR to 17, and I have a DM/Firey Brute at 24, but I just like the broadsword better for some reason.
[ QUOTE ]
Hello, everyone. I recently joined the world of City of Heroes just before Christmas, and I have been playing for a couple months now. A friend and co-worker of mine had just started a free trial, and without trying he had accidentally talked me into playing as well. After playing for a couple weeks together, our gaming paths split: he quit the game and I stayed. Ever since, I have not been able to convince him or anyone else I know to play the game. I'm curious to see if others have had experiences similar to mine, and so listed below are the reasons my friends refuse to play:
1. The gameplay is challenging, awkward, and frustrating for new players
The first level tutorial was easy enough for me to work my way through, and it made for a decent first impression. After that, my impression of the game took an immediate nosedive. When I got my first mission in Atlas Park, I was pointed to a mission door in a far corner of the map, tucked behind a web of level 5-6 lieutenant spawns showing a nerve-wracking display of purple colored names. I thought to myself, "There's no way I can fight these guys yet, so that must not be an area I'm supposed to enter right now." Instead, I spent a couple hours searching the streets for even con mobs to fight so I could level up to a more appropriate level for getting to my mission. When I finally soloed my way to the mission door, all the enemies inside were extremely weak, giving little XP at all. In the end, it actually took me several days to realize:
A. I can Sprint past the harder mobs to get to the door. Even still, this is counter-intuitive and makes me feel less like a hero and more like a coward.
B. Door missions spawn mobs relative to the level you had when you accepted the mission, making it a reliable option for finding appropriate level challenges.
Eventually, I finally made it to level 5. My contact told me to see someone in King's Row, who then told me to see -- you guessed it! -- Lt. David Wincott in the Hollows. His first mission for me: defeat 10 Outcasts. The problem: Outcasts near the area range from levels 6-9 in groups of 7-10 members, often including several lieutenants and bosses. My scrapper-based strategy consisted of taking on a group, trying to kill one or two before dying, and running from the hospital in Atlas Park back to the zone to rinse and repeat. Second mission: defeat 10 Trolls. /facepalm
[/ QUOTE ] Clearly, he fell into the "he is a contact, so I must do his missions" deal. Further Hollows is a hazard zone not proposed to be soloed. Did he try teaming at all?[ QUOTE ]
Even after completing the Trolls mission with my friend,
[/ QUOTE ] Apparently so, but even 2 might not be enough.[ QUOTE ]
we still died several times just trying to make our way through the mob-heavy, obstruction-infested zone to the next few door missions. And during this time, it never occurred to us that we could go back to the contact in King's Row for different missions. We just thought we were where we were supposed to be.
[/ QUOTE ] Clearly they did not READ the tutorial well, where it explains contacts and what they do.[ QUOTE ]
With as much difficulty as we were having with regular missions, radio missions weren't even a consideration. I was simply too intimidated to even want to try these "safeguard missions," which sounded far more complicated. If I had known I could get a free temporary travel power out of it, I might have put more effort into trying it. But instead, I spent a lot of time running back and forth between zones for different missions, hoping I could eventually get to level 14 and get my travel power.
Unfortunately, my friend never made it that far. At level 11, he found his 3 mission slots filled with the Frostfire mission (which he tried but could not beat), a "Beat X number of Type mobs," most of which were too high a level for him or hard to find in the zone, and a door mission which spawned Lt's one level higher than him that he could not defeat. He died frequently within a short timeframe attempting any of these missions, and with the gloomy prospect of a growing debt bar, he finally gave up. He called that day his "worst MMORPG experience ever," and he never logged in again. He now refers to the game as "City of Hospital," and I can't even share with him the new adventures I've had in the game because he's no longer interested in it.
[/ QUOTE ] Still, this sounds like your friend did not play very well. To be defeated repeatedly would suggest he never ran from a fight to refresh, perhaps didn't use enhancements well, or other associated factors. Teaming up with other people might have helped out, but unfortuantely, it seems like he focused mostly on small teams or solo, fought things far above him, and was not skilled in playing the game. Those things can be daunting, but this can happen in any game. You can wander into areas too high for you in WoW, where the thing you are suppose to collect is. Does that mean the game was designed wrong? Or does it just mean you have to learn the way the game flows?[ QUOTE ]
2. Veteran Rewards and optional expansions alienate new players
A few times now, I've tried to tell my friends and co-workers something new I've discovered about this game only to realize how dumb it actually sounds after I've said it out loud.
"Hey, guess what? City of Heroes has a new expansion pack out. It's only $10! It looks like it features.... a wedding dress. And a tux. And a couple redesigns of pre-existing costumes. Umm... and an emote to throw rice at people?"
"Oh, it looks like City of Heroes just released a new pet that buffs you. To get it.... you have to keep playing the game for four years."
Quite frankly, I did not win anyone over to the game explaining these features. In fact, I think I lost a little credibility. They laughed at the idea of the Wedding Expansion Pack, and subsequently asked, "You mean I would have to pay the monthly subscription AND pay extra for every little extra thing?" We all agreed such a set of features should really either be included with the monthly subscription or added into a bigger expansion that offered more options.
[/ QUOTE ] payed expansions are nothing new, and the wedding pack was not the first paid add on. I do agree that the wedding pack was more expensive than it was worth, but I think it was more test run for further such additions. But many MMOs have paided expansions.
As for veteran rewards, they are what they are. You shouldn't sell them to friends talking about the last one, talk about the first one, at just 3 months, and every 3 months after. Lastly, assume all the additions in veteran rewards were never given at all. That certainly isn't going to be a better inducement to play.[ QUOTE ]
And the concept of veteran rewards is just absolutely heartbreaking for a new player, myself included, for two reasons:
A. No amount of effort on my part will unlock these any faster, and the time to wait for particular items of interest is substantial! This leaves us in a perpetual state of unhealthy "reward envy," and knowing a particular reward is so far out of our reach and beyond our control makes the game less appealing to play.
[/ QUOTE ] How so? You get it at the same time everyone else gets it. veteran rewards are account longevity rewards. and NOTHING can stop you from getting them. You will get them after X time, no matter how little you play, no matter how poorly you play, no matter what side or characters you play, no matter when or how you play. Time passes at a constant sec/sec. And would you really like these things to be gone entirely? Or worse, have to pay for them like the wedding pack?[ QUOTE ]
B. The rewards keep accumulating at the top end, meaning a new player will never be able to catch up to older players.
[/ QUOTE ] No, you will get them at the same time everyone else does. Indeed, it is the long time players who were denied access to those vet rewards prior to their release that have any standing to complain. You get the 3 month reward after 3 months time. I had to wait more than a year to get my 3 month reward.[ QUOTE ]
This provokes feelings of being left out and unwanted, and it makes me feel as if I am substantially less valuable to the developers simply because I wasn't playing since the first day of release. Since I can never catch up to the ranks of the more valuable subscribers of this game, it's natural that I would probably be more likely to give up and join on another game's release instead, especially if my friends do as well.
[/ QUOTE ] Again, how would removing them be an improvement? And how is rewarding account longevity something that can put you off, would you prefer they reward account longevity with character DEBUFFS, or higher inf costs for things, or other game disadvantages?[ QUOTE ]
I really do respect the idea that people who have been faithful subscribers to this game for four years are given something special for their continued business. But I have to imagine this business model rewards its existing players at the expense of prospective new ones. Plus, veterans in the top subscription tier do not have to suffer the anxiety of anticipation of a particular reward. Each new reward is revealed just before it is released to them, whereas newer players suffer through the news thinking, "Well, that's another thing I won't have for four more years. Whoop-di-doo." Essentially, each new reward is punishing players again for not being a subscriber on Day 1. From this end of being four years behind the leaders, if something really enticing comes out as a new reward, I am probably more likely to quit the game out of spite than to be motivated to maintain my subscription indefinitely. In essence, I'm actually hoping each new vet reward is worthless so I am free to enjoy the rest of the game.
[/ QUOTE ] If the devs got rid of veteran rewards tomorrow, are you really saying you would be HAPPIER? I can not believe there is any rational player that would say this:
P: devs, veteran rewards make me want to quit, I want them but feel like I won't get them.
D: hmmm, ok, vet rewards are gone, all that stuff is lost forever.
P: cool, now I want to stay, because I don't feel unwanted.
Come on[ QUOTE ]
In Conclusion:
I really do like this game. I've had a lot of fun making new characters, and I've found an awesome group with the Angry/Jaded Angels on Virtue (you guys rock!). I've enjoyed being a hero and a villain, and my new broadsword/willpower scrapper is really fun to play! I've also learned a lot about the game since then (although I am far from an expert), I have led a few radio mission teams, and I just recently soloed my first Invincible! However, my biggest regret is that I cannot convince other real life friends to join because of the reasons mentioned above, and I worry that their reactions are similar to other new player experiences around the world. For the sake of this game and the hard work of the developers behind it, I want it to continue growing.
[/ QUOTE ] The best thing you can do is provide them your game experience. Since you know how things work, team with them to start, even Exemplaring down if needs be, or make a new character. Show them the ropes. If they really are your friends, and are willing to commit some time and money to buying the game, they can at least expect you will commit some time to helping them enjoy it no?[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for reading this far, and I apologize for the length of this post. Ultimately, I would like to make this perspective useful in posting ideas to the suggestions forum, but I'm interested first in knowing how many others have had similar experiences.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did not have any problems your friends had because:
1. I had friends that teamed with me throughout my learning curve.
2. Veteran rewards did not exist early on.
further I have patience, which helps in a host of game situations:
1. Xp/hr means nothing to me.
2. Standing around doing nothing while I recover (resting) is not a burden.
3. debt does not bother me.
4. I have no problems getting what I want on the CH over time.
5. loot does not entice me.
Perhaps your friends do not have patience, or have a different gaming style. That isn't necessarily bad, just something to consider when choosing how to introduce them into the game. This game is really very casual friendly, and I have no doubt that the unique additions in this game might have some interest for them.
Is World of Walking better in terms of travel time? In terms of foes faced for a challenge? Lag? Focus of the game (1-50 or end game)? All these questions go into deciding which game is right for you. maybe this one just isn't right for them.
[ QUOTE ]
Your mileage may vary, but I don't want to be taunted with a display of something I can't have for four years..... every three months. So I have to imagine this is a business model that will only get worse exponentially as it progresses until either new sign-ups disappear completely and the game perpetuates solely on currently existing customers until they all quit or die out...... or the system changes. It's not just about me -- it's the new customer base I'm concerned about.
[/ QUOTE ]your concern is appreciated, but there is a reason all the mmos do vet rewards, because they have been proven to work, thats it. If vet rewards were found to cause a lot of new users to leave, they would have noticed it and dropped them, but they apparently dont, because just about EVERY one does it. does it bother some people, yeah, and i have made comments on numerous occasions for them to do a token based system where you could choose what cosmetic reward you get(you want samurai at 3 months, cash in the vet token, you boxing too? see ya next quarte), and have "useful" rewards like the staff and sands/axe at set times. But vet rewards exist for one reason, because they have been found to work.
No argument here. I've been saying for weeks now, maybe months, that the single most important thing this game needs to do is to revamp the level 5-15 game almost from scratch. It's so massively inferior to the rest of the game that it has to be costing potential subscribers.
Anybody who continues past a two week free trial (on the hero side, the villain side isn't nearly as hard) has decided to keep going even after ...
<ul type="square">[*]Being sent to Argosy Industrial Park, level 6 territory, with a level 2 character.[*]Running out of missions at level 4, with no contacts who will talk to them until level 5. (Even after XP smoothing.)[*]Having that first level 5 contact send them two zones away in order to fight Hazard Zone sized spawns of levels 6 to 9. Or, if they skip that mission and go back to the first contact ...[*]Having about a 1 in 3 chance of being assigned a mission door in Perez Park or on the far size of the Hollows before they're even level 8.[*]If they get to level 10 and enthusiastically attempt their first task force, being in for a roughly four hour slog ... that will completely and utterly fail in the 3rd mission, for your average pick-up group, because of the massive overlapping debuffs from having multiple Spectral Daemon Lords. And if he does get past that mission, all he's in for is another 2 and a half hours of same old, same old, with a totally anti-climactic ending.[*]And if he makes it that far, he'll have a sense that the street gangs in this town are all involved in some kind of conspiracy. But unless he lucked into The Bonefire Plot (odds against better than 6 to 1), he still hasn't had any actual storylines resolve, he still doesn't have any proof that any of the clues that have been dropped actually mean anything.[/list]Anybody who keeps laying City of Heroes after that is really determined to play a tights-and-fights game regardless of the annoyances. Anybody who was just looking for a fun game to play with their friends? Went and did something else.
Notice how many things they did smarter when they sat down two years later to write City of Villains:
<ul type="square">[*]None of the level 2-6 missions send you into an area where the mobs are above level 4. Not 6, not 15 (far side of the Hollows), 4.[*]Even if you just solo first contact only, you're still at least level 5. Do both of your Mercy Island contacts, and if anything, you're too high level (after XP smoothing), you're in danger of completely out-leveling half of Port Oakes. But at the very least, it is almost completely impossible to run out of contacts with missions in City of Villains now, let alone run out on your first day.[*]Neither Mongoose nor Dr. Geist refer you directly to another contact. No, to make sure you learn about the chance to earn a Raptor Pack or a Zero-G Pack, they refer you to your broker first. Only after you have had a chance to learn to fly at level 5 to 7 do they refer you to the storyline contacts that will send you all over the map.[*]There are almost no street-hunting missions prior to level 20. None of them involve Hazard Zone sized spawns. None of them require you to hunt mobs that are above your level. (Admittedly, then you get to Sharkhead at level 20 and the game screws you hard.)[*]Other than the newspaper missions, all contacts give short-story story arcs that have a clear beginning, middle, and an end that wraps up at least some plotline.[*]There is no level 10-15 task force, I know. But the first chance someone who starts with Villains gets to do an equivalent, a strike force, comes at level 15. Yes, it does involve multiple fights against Ruin Mages and Spectral Daemon Lords, and one mission that spawns a long stream of player-targeted ambushes with Longbow Wardens. But the whole thing is over, even for an inexperienced pickup group, in not much more than two hours. And it ends in a custom map that looks like nothing you've ever seen before, after fighting a big-name superhero, and then fighting a giant monster in a pool of boiling lava. Epic.[/list]NCNC knows better, now, than to run new subscribers through the kind of hellish nightmare bad experience that is City of Heroes level 2 to 15. They just haven't made fixing it a priority. I think that's why the game hasn't had a net gain of subscribers since issue 6.
I can't convince my friends because hardly any of them own a PC that can play the game.
Tell them to try playing villain side. FAR less running around and "kill X" stuff. They learned their lesson. (Just don't let them start out on a Dominator.)
There is a very easy solution to the early-level missions: the sewers. Simple as that.
New players coming in blind may not know of them, but I don't see why you couldn't take your friends.
because the sewers isn't content, and I don't know about you, but when I try out a new game, I want to see its content.
Well, I think a major portion of the issues you cite would be addressed by either having a useful instruction manual or a lot more hand-holding / explanation at lower levels. The manual was not very good to start with and is now woefully out of date. CoH pretty much throws you into the deep end of the pool and shouts, "Swim!" In the absence of a manual, make some friends who can explain things.
I think the next biggest issue needs a change in you. I don't understand why you are so fixated on the vet rewards and have such a negative impression. This kind of practice, rewarding loyal customers, has been tested and proven for a long time across countless industries. It works for bowling alleys, office supply stores, video rentals, etc. Works great for online games, too.
As for the wedding pack, yeah, I think that was kind of dopey too. Luckily for me, it has stuff I consider useless so I have no inclination to buy it and don't miss it. It definitely rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, though.
Overall, this is not a simple game for the casual gamer. The real appeal is to comic/superhero fans. Fans will struggle past the poor documentation.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
<QR> Mine can't convince me to play WoW. I think it balances out.
[ QUOTE ]
because the sewers isn't content, and I don't know about you, but when I try out a new game, I want to see its content.
[/ QUOTE ]eh, not really going with you there. sewers are content as much as the misions are, yeah its one map, and no specific storyline, but at that level its your best chance to get a really large group going and fight large group spawns. the thing about mmo content is, at least in the beginning, its generally similar across the different games, kill 10 rats missions, get 10 rat-tails missions, maybe a harvesting mission and some fed exes. yeah tis content, but im not sure if i would say its much more engageing than the sewers. even at the unimpressive powers we have at that point, you can still get a pretty dynamic and fun group going with 6 others.
I must admit that Aidalyn makes some good points. The problem is, most of us have either played the game too long, or have too much experience from other MMOs, or both, to understand the real frustrations that new players have in the game. It's easy to say, "Do sewers," or, "Do radio/safeguard for jetpack," or, "Don't take Wincott's missions, just go back," because we =know= that. But they don't.
Exemplaring a lot in The Hollows is a constant education in how much I take for granted. I think Aidalyn's friend's comment about "City of Hospital" sums up the OP very well.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
[ QUOTE ]
Eventually, I finally made it to level 5. My contact told me to see someone in King's Row, who then told me to see -- you guessed it! -- Lt. David Wincott in the Hollows. His first mission for me: defeat 10 Outcasts. The problem: Outcasts near the area range from levels 6-9 in groups of 7-10 members, often including several lieutenants and bosses.
[/ QUOTE ]
My at-the-time level 7 Defender was recently sent on a hunt mission to a certain part of Perez Park. I have heard Perez cussed up one side and down the other on these boards, but what the heck - I will go take a look.
I get to where he's supposed to be, and everything's conning purple. Bwahahahaha! The Defender is doing good to hit a yellow-conning minion at level 7, much less a purple-title boss.
He'll be dropping that mission as soon as the three day period passes. One thing about CoH, if someone insists on passing out annoying hunt-missions, you can always just ignore that contact and start hunting on the street to level.
That way you can pick your targets. LOL at ever thinking that sending me to hunt purple-titles is ever, ever going to work. Not in the Rogue Isles, and not over here either.
As far as the buffing pet, that is so far off for me that it does not even register on my radar. That way, I avoid angsting over it.
Hello, everyone. I recently joined the world of City of Heroes just before Christmas, and I have been playing for a couple months now. A friend and co-worker of mine had just started a free trial, and without trying he had accidentally talked me into playing as well. After playing for a couple weeks together, our gaming paths split: he quit the game and I stayed. Ever since, I have not been able to convince him or anyone else I know to play the game. I'm curious to see if others have had experiences similar to mine, and so listed below are the reasons my friends refuse to play:
1. The gameplay is challenging, awkward, and frustrating for new players
The first level tutorial was easy enough for me to work my way through, and it made for a decent first impression. After that, my impression of the game took an immediate nosedive. When I got my first mission in Atlas Park, I was pointed to a mission door in a far corner of the map, tucked behind a web of level 5-6 lieutenant spawns showing a nerve-wracking display of purple colored names. I thought to myself, "There's no way I can fight these guys yet, so that must not be an area I'm supposed to enter right now." Instead, I spent a couple hours searching the streets for even con mobs to fight so I could level up to a more appropriate level for getting to my mission. When I finally soloed my way to the mission door, all the enemies inside were extremely weak, giving little XP at all. In the end, it actually took me several days to realize:
A. I can Sprint past the harder mobs to get to the door. Even still, this is counter-intuitive and makes me feel less like a hero and more like a coward.
B. Door missions spawn mobs relative to the level you had when you accepted the mission, making it a reliable option for finding appropriate level challenges.
Eventually, I finally made it to level 5. My contact told me to see someone in King's Row, who then told me to see -- you guessed it! -- Lt. David Wincott in the Hollows. His first mission for me: defeat 10 Outcasts. The problem: Outcasts near the area range from levels 6-9 in groups of 7-10 members, often including several lieutenants and bosses. My scrapper-based strategy consisted of taking on a group, trying to kill one or two before dying, and running from the hospital in Atlas Park back to the zone to rinse and repeat. Second mission: defeat 10 Trolls. /facepalm
Even after completing the Trolls mission with my friend, we still died several times just trying to make our way through the mob-heavy, obstruction-infested zone to the next few door missions. And during this time, it never occurred to us that we could go back to the contact in King's Row for different missions. We just thought we were where we were supposed to be.
With as much difficulty as we were having with regular missions, radio missions weren't even a consideration. I was simply too intimidated to even want to try these "safeguard missions," which sounded far more complicated. If I had known I could get a free temporary travel power out of it, I might have put more effort into trying it. But instead, I spent a lot of time running back and forth between zones for different missions, hoping I could eventually get to level 14 and get my travel power.
Unfortunately, my friend never made it that far. At level 11, he found his 3 mission slots filled with the Frostfire mission (which he tried but could not beat), a "Beat X number of Type mobs," most of which were too high a level for him or hard to find in the zone, and a door mission which spawned Lt's one level higher than him that he could not defeat. He died frequently within a short timeframe attempting any of these missions, and with the gloomy prospect of a growing debt bar, he finally gave up. He called that day his "worst MMORPG experience ever," and he never logged in again. He now refers to the game as "City of Hospital," and I can't even share with him the new adventures I've had in the game because he's no longer interested in it.
2. Veteran Rewards and optional expansions alienate new players
A few times now, I've tried to tell my friends and co-workers something new I've discovered about this game only to realize how dumb it actually sounds after I've said it out loud.
"Hey, guess what? City of Heroes has a new expansion pack out. It's only $10! It looks like it features.... a wedding dress. And a tux. And a couple redesigns of pre-existing costumes. Umm... and an emote to throw rice at people?"
"Oh, it looks like City of Heroes just released a new pet that buffs you. To get it.... you have to keep playing the game for four years."
Quite frankly, I did not win anyone over to the game explaining these features. In fact, I think I lost a little credibility. They laughed at the idea of the Wedding Expansion Pack, and subsequently asked, "You mean I would have to pay the monthly subscription AND pay extra for every little extra thing?" We all agreed such a set of features should really either be included with the monthly subscription or added into a bigger expansion that offered more options.
And the concept of veteran rewards is just absolutely heartbreaking for a new player, myself included, for two reasons:
A. No amount of effort on my part will unlock these any faster, and the time to wait for particular items of interest is substantial! This leaves us in a perpetual state of unhealthy "reward envy," and knowing a particular reward is so far out of our reach and beyond our control makes the game less appealing to play.
B. The rewards keep accumulating at the top end, meaning a new player will never be able to catch up to older players. This provokes feelings of being left out and unwanted, and it makes me feel as if I am substantially less valuable to the developers simply because I wasn't playing since the first day of release. Since I can never catch up to the ranks of the more valuable subscribers of this game, it's natural that I would probably be more likely to give up and join on another game's release instead, especially if my friends do as well.
I really do respect the idea that people who have been faithful subscribers to this game for four years are given something special for their continued business. But I have to imagine this business model rewards its existing players at the expense of prospective new ones. Plus, veterans in the top subscription tier do not have to suffer the anxiety of anticipation of a particular reward. Each new reward is revealed just before it is released to them, whereas newer players suffer through the news thinking, "Well, that's another thing I won't have for four more years. Whoop-di-doo." Essentially, each new reward is punishing players again for not being a subscriber on Day 1. From this end of being four years behind the leaders, if something really enticing comes out as a new reward, I am probably more likely to quit the game out of spite than to be motivated to maintain my subscription indefinitely. In essence, I'm actually hoping each new vet reward is worthless so I am free to enjoy the rest of the game.
In Conclusion:
I really do like this game. I've had a lot of fun making new characters, and I've found an awesome group with the Angry/Jaded Angels on Virtue (you guys rock!). I've enjoyed being a hero and a villain, and my new broadsword/willpower scrapper is really fun to play! I've also learned a lot about the game since then (although I am far from an expert), I have led a few radio mission teams, and I just recently soloed my first Invincible! However, my biggest regret is that I cannot convince other real life friends to join because of the reasons mentioned above, and I worry that their reactions are similar to other new player experiences around the world. For the sake of this game and the hard work of the developers behind it, I want it to continue growing.
Thank you for reading this far, and I apologize for the length of this post. Ultimately, I would like to make this perspective useful in posting ideas to the suggestions forum, but I'm interested first in knowing how many others have had similar experiences.