Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions
By
Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2008-02-14 15:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Are you serious? It took you this long to reply?
How did you miss a change this big? How, when you found out about it, could you think it was a good idea to wait so very long to tell us? And why do you think we would possibly buy the idea that it was for RMTers?
I'm just apalled at the way this whole patch, and this change in particular, was handled. In between forgetting to add the nerfs in the live notes, having a lot of erroneous notes that were about test to test changes only, this patch release was incredibly sloppy. You had this great amazing patch, and instead of board discussion being a celebration about the power changes and the real numbers, instead there's a lot of resentment because of poor communication. Are you guys going to look at how patch notes are handled?
I guess my main question is though, is this a change that's still up for discussion? A lot of people have valid concerns (Shadow Shard TFs are going to be near impossible), and I guess I'd like to know if you're going to be listening to us or if this is one of those things where the ship has sailed.
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I agree.. with putz
Honestly WTF
The change should have been in the test server patch notes before it was pushed live.
How much internal testing was done before the change on live? I'll bet you zip.. zero... nada.... bumpkiss.
The majority on test are pvp'ers unless something goes in a training room patch note that interests others to hop on over and test it out.
I am sure some sort of compromise can and will be made eventually* crosses fingers*. The current change is simply ludicrous.
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This change is really obnoxious. The villain market is already crap and now that it will be more difficult to run Cap SFs, its only going to get worse. also, this REALLY sucks for Posi Task force. I really hope you guys reconsider this change. Softloading didn't prevent teams from running TFs it just allowed Soloers to do it.
TAKE THAT SOLOERS!
Please please please reconsider this. don't make changes that force people to play a certain way, it just doesn't make sense.
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TAKE THAT SOLOERS!
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Down with this sort of thing!
@Mindshadow
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This change is really obnoxious. The villain market is already crap and now that it will be more difficult to run Cap SFs, its only going to get worse. also, this REALLY sucks for Posi Task force. I really hope you guys reconsider this change. Softloading didn't prevent teams from running TFs it just allowed Soloers to do it.
TAKE THAT SOLOERS!
Please please please reconsider this. don't make changes that force people to play a certain way, it just doesn't make sense.
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I really have to wonder what the devs have been smoking the last week or so. It's just one bungling after another.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
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Some were reporting that if people were offline but not quit, the spawns would be based on people in the TF, offline or online. For example, a TF with minimum size of six starts with eight people, two people disconnect and don't come back. From what you are saying the spawn sizes should be based on six people, but some were saying that spawn sizes were the size you'd expect with eight people. Was this bad analysis of the situation, or is there an additional part to drop.
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Sounds like the kind of thing players could have tested on the test server, if only it had been in the test notes. Oops?
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(Honestly) Not to be rude...but...
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Thanks in advance for your understanding and for your continued support.
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Don't thank in advance for that which will never be there...
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Srsly. I just don't understand the devs mindset here. It seems that any other type of farming is A-Ok, as LONG as its not recipe farming. what da hell?
[censored] they, ENCOURAGED farming with the Purples, and now this is a wet dream to RMT farmers.
Glad you have finally fixed this.
Good [censored] game.
Meh. I don't think this change is warranted, or properly thought out. But it's just a game. If I wind up not liking this, I'll just move on. I'm sure there will be a small percentage that will also. No big deal.
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example of lengthy SF: Lady Grey Task Force. A mild trim to that SF wouldn't hurt.
SF that requires to many to start: LGTF and RSF. I have complete both with less then 8 due to drop outs, including 2 seperate MoRSF runs with less then 8. Could the start up minimum become six instead for both these?
Fun factor: they are all are fun for me, some more then others of course.
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Lady Grey is a long SF? 5 missions, each unique? I'd happily point to it as an example of a great SF. One of the reasons it was so popular in the 35-44 group for heroes was that it was fun and reasonably fast. As opposed to Numina (35 missions, including 16 meaningless hunt missions in 16 different zones), Quarterfield (24 missions, many "defeat all"), and Sara Moore (15 missions, half defeat all).
Was, of course, the operative word, because they removed the ability to sidekick into it. In yet another change that didn't make it into the patch notes.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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My wall of text reaction:
Not only does this change have many adverse effects for general gameplay, but it's self-defeating in a way. Farmers don't even have to bother finding people to pad/fill their missions any more, they can just get a TF loaded up and reset the mission repeatedly by logging in and out, spawning for 6 or 8 or whatever the TF's set to. Anyone up for unlimited runs of CoT farming for magic salvage and influence on the STF mission #3? Or how 'bout we get to mission 4 and milk out the large Arachnos spawns and ambushes?
Getting back to the original adverse effects: sometimes players get disconnected. Sometimes players leave. Sometimes several players leave. If a small team gets ditched toward the end of a Task Force that requires a decent sized team, they're essentially screwed now.
Not to mention, consider Task Forces that are considered gut-wrenchingly boring and time-consuming for teams above size 1 or 2, like the Positron TF or trying to do Quarterfield with a large team. The whole reason players haven't already revolted against those Task Forces is because it's common practice to run them with very small teams.
This change isn't just hurting power gamers, either. A group of 3-5 casual players who regularly team with one another may want to run, say, a Manticore TF with each other. If they're on an underpopulated server at a weakly populated time (which might be the only time they're available to play), it's virtually guaranteed that they're not going to get several more players who have the time to grind out 3 hours of a Manticore TF spawned for 7 players. And now, with this change, they won't even be able to run it on a team of 3-5, spawned for 3-5; they'll be [censored] out of luck.
Yeah, Katie TFs were patched, for better or for worse. If Cap SFs are the cause for concern here, then consider alterations to that specific TF. I'm not here to debate whether that should be done. However, don't take it out on the entire playerbase by enacting a poorly thought out, widespread change to all TFs that has obviously already been met with more than its fair share of disapproval.
Yes, I'm upset that things like the toggle bug and icon-stacking bug have been "acknowledged" but have remained unfixed for a long time. But I'm actually alarmed that the time that could've been spent fixing these bugs was instead spent creating even more problems.
The players don't need yet another source of frustration with a new patch. If team-happy people who have a good 5 hours to burn want to run 8-player Positron teams, let them do so. The old setup wasn't stopping them from doing that. If they feel like forming cliques to shun players who solo Task Forces because it goes against their own subjective opinion of what's "exploitive," they can do that as well. But don't formalize it by implementing a gameplay-restricting patch with such pervasive and misdirected effects.
The reason it wasn't in the patch notes shouldn't be that "we forgot to list it;" it should be because it was never implemented at all. And that's what should happen now.
I do not understand this change. I do not like this change.
"[M]aintaining [group] requirement is the reason for this change." However, I do not see how this change encourages all forms of teaming (grouping).
This change discourages "pick-up group" Task/Strike Forces. One would not want to start a TF with players who they do not know to be reliable. If several team members quit, a TF may be doomed to failure. This punishment for disconnect or quitters, will in my opinion, DISCOURAGE grouping. Therefore, this fix goes against its stated intent.
A **speculated** intent of this fix was to prevent softloading. Will preventing soft-loading actually prevent running TFs for speed/recipes? In my opinion, the players who do soft-load are going for time. I am one such player who softloads Cap Au Diable Strike Forces for time and rewards. Yes, this fix will make running those strike forces, solely for the recipe, slightly longer. However, this will **NOT** stop players like me from being able to quickly complete Task Forces for recipes. My SF runner is MORE than capable of annihilating four player spawns with minimal time impact. Therefore, the speculated intent of this TF may succeed in stopping some forms of Soft-loading, but not all. Once again not fulfilling its intent.
The old form of Task Forces encouraged people to team with players who they did not know. If a person quit or was disconnected, the team could press on knowing that missing that team member (or members) would not be devastating on their chances of success. The price for this style is that some Task Forces were solo-able. I think solo-ability is a fair price for ENCOURAGING pick up group Task Forces.
Perhaps there is an intent to this Task Force change that I have not seen. What is that intent? Currently, the ONLY benefits of this change I see is that it ENABLES players to battle larger spawn sizes than they would normally be able to.
Can we get this ability in regular missions? I'd love to be able to make the spawns larger if I choose. Unyielding is good, but Unyielding set for 4 people would be even better.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
bullcrap, I saw the post where lighthouse said this was a bug and then that was deleted, lost in the volume my [censored]
Im really not bothered by the change, i like to play my TFs but I get annoyed when the "community co-ordinator" STEALTH obliterates his own post
My boss has a saying, "Reward the behavior that you want to achieve."
If the fix is for farming, you just rewarded the farmers by giving them more influnce and drops.
If the fix is to make the TF/SF's the way they are intended, you crippled the majority of your player base.
While I have a core group I can pull from to do a Task Force and be extemely successful at it, the majority of the player base is limited to PUG's.
I can't count the number of times since I have been playing that I joined a PUG TF and had someone disconnect permanantly or just quit for no reason. If it is the only defender or controller on the team, things just got quite a bit more difficult for the players who don't have time to know their character inside and out. For me it's no big deal, but I play everyday. For the person who plays once a week, they just became a debt magnet. And debt magnets will invariably quit after dieing a few times. If this happens a few more times, the 3 hours I have already spent is totally wasted time.
There are dozens of bad scenarios where this will totally hose the TF. Not to say that this wasn;t possible beforehand, but it will make it more frequent now.
It's bad enough that I have to run Positron at 14 to 15 and level out due to the spawn occuring at max level regardless of who is on the team. This is just one more reason to quit doing TF's in a PUG.
Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.
Claiming that this change was simply lost in the process is a cop-out. You guys managed to make a whole seperate patch for this change...
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Fixed issue with Wedding Veil. Previously it was 2-tone (matching one color to the color of the characters hair), and it was opaque.
It is now monocolored, translucent, and not linked to the character's hair color.
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but arguably the biggest gameplay change in the patch gets "lost".
When it comes to the actual change, like many have said, I am very very against it. THe reason that I play this game is for test PvP. There, the competition is extremely heavy, and builds need to be min/maxd to be able to compete with the best. This means that all toons you want to PvP with need the TF Commander accolade. Ive done all of the TFs many times and I frankly hate doing them. However, I have to for the sake of keeping up with the rest of the crowd. Now that I cant solo them, I cannot even imagine attempting to do them, which means Im done with new toons.
You claim that this change was made for the sake of preventing farming, but that just doesnt make any sense. Casual gamers and non-farmers are going to be doing TFs much less now, because getting together a TF is going to be a massive pain as all players will need to stay on team. Farmers, however, will still be able to farm TFs and still get all of the recipes they want. Because there are less on the market, the price of these recipes will go up, and because people arent doing TFs, the demand will go up. The farmers are going to benefit from this change more then they will be hurt.
This change was made with good intentions, but it is going to cause much more harm then good by a long shot.
-- Currently Playing --
Dexter Labrynth (SS/FA Brute)
Former member of Tribute and Victory Reborn
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(Honestly) Not to be rude...but...
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Thanks in advance for your understanding and for your continued support.
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Don't thank in advance for that which will never be there...
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what he means is [censored] you ncsoft.
i miss cryptic.
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I would suggest that if a team's membership falls below the "minimum" for the TF because a player quit the TF (for any reason), the team leader *should* be able to add enough new team members to bring it back up to the TF minimum.
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I agree...it's always a pain when people quit/drop out of a TF/SF and you can't replace them 
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Thread summation:
Devs : [M]aintaining [group] requirement is the reason for this change.
Players: Either that's not 100% true, or you are being very silly in thinking this change will encourage grouping.
I don't want to go as far as saying "you are lying or stupid" because I like many of the things the Devs do. The devs do a lot of great work and actually listen to user input. I applaud them for their hard work. But if saying "you are lying or stupid" will get this all sorted out and have a happy ending... you are lying or stupid.
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Such missions have always been intended to be group activities, hence the reason for the minimum group size requirement to start them. We feel that the group size requirements are certainly not onerous and that the need for grouping is a good dynamic in a social environment like City of Heroes. We want to continue to offer good rewards based on a group accomplishment through such missions and maintaining that requirement is the reason for this change.
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For the casual player, you're making it harder to get on PuG SF/TFs. Consider, for a moment, how bloody annoying the Trial of Transcendence is. One person quits for any reason and its uncompleteable. It's such a pain in the [censored] that relatively few people even attempt it, much less complete it. For the casual player you're turning every SF/TF into that now to some extent or another.
For the farmer, all you've done is help them out. Free 8-man spawns without needing fillers.
For folks who want the accolade without having to repeat the boring PvE content for the umpteenth time, you've just flipped them all a big bird. "Lol PvP", right?
All in all, everything I've come to expect from the developers of this game. All it lacks is a regen nerf and a buff to blaster damage.
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Sorry Devs, you didn't think this one through.
Minimum TF size for the Shadowshard TF's is EIGHT. So if *anyone* drops, your still stuck with their spawns. On the longest TF's in the game.
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I'm in agreement that the requirements for the Shard TFs (and perhaps a few other oddballs) need to be addressed & and in all likelihood probably will be shortly
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The only TF being farmed like this was the Cap au Diable TF, and it was the *only* thing keeping the Villain market afloat. Without it, the prices for Class C recipes are going to SKYROCKET.
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And how is that any different from the thread after thread PRIOR to this change, that stated that the Red Side Market was already dried up.
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In truth, you actually made farming EASIER for RMT farmers. All they need to do is start a Shadowshard TF, and than they have an *unlimited* amount of 8 man spawns at their disposal.
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WOOOOOOT!!! No more "will you anchor for me" requests!!! SWEET!!! However...
1. Most Farmers spawn maps for 6 & not 8 due to the abundance of Bosses
2. Most farmers use SJ (Inertial Redux) as their only mode of transportation... good luck with that in the Shard. 
3. Most farmers prefer to NOT hop from mish door to mish door, because it wastes valuable farming time.
4. Most farmers prefer the large outdoor maps, not too many of those on the Shard TFs
5. They could log out of the game and then log back in to reset a map... but how is that any different than what they do already? This changes very little in that regard
If you are going to complain about something, pick a valid example... your "you actually made farming EASIER for RMT farmers" is complete BS.
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Please revert this change. In no way does this fix any percieved problems with Task Forces, and in fact makes a good deal of Task Forces(the ones that were *already* considered un-fun) significantly more difficult.
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Um Wrong... the softloading of the Villian Respec, LRTF, STF alone warrants this change.
And its not like the NPCS dont indicate that you need 'X' Number of players to run a TF
I'm loving this change 
look at the reaction lighthouse, go to the dev team and tell them to read this.
for once, just for once, really listen to us.
lotg's are already going for 75 mill redside. 75 mill. you think the average player can afford that? hell, lighthouse, i've been known to farm a bit (not gonna lie), and i can't afford those.
if this change was gonna go live, markets should have been merged at the same time.
this is just unfair.
and please be honest with us.
is that too much to ask?
Sorry Devs, you didn't think this one through.
Minimum TF size for the Shadowshard TF's is EIGHT. So if *anyone* drops, your still stuck with their spawns. On the longest TF's in the game.
And all to solve a *percieved* imbalance. The only TF being farmed like this was the Cap au Diable TF, and it was the *only* thing keeping the Villain market afloat. Without it, the prices for Class C recipes are going to SKYROCKET.
In truth, you actually made farming EASIER for RMT farmers. All they need to do is start a Shadowshard TF, and than they have an *unlimited* amount of 8 man spawns at their disposal.
Please revert this change. In no way does this fix any percieved problems with Task Forces, and in fact makes a good deal of Task Forces(the ones that were *already* considered un-fun) significantly more difficult.