Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 18:02 in Player Guides
wait, wait, wait, wait, wait....
the guide isn't sarcasm?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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wait, wait, wait, wait, wait....
the guide isn't sarcasm?
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I'm afraid not.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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dudes just a troll.
This is easily the best guide I've seen thus far.
Why?
Because it gives me a comparison of the various sets, and explains the shortcomings in significant detail of a single set that I might be interested in.
It's always nice to see the good(What it can do in resistance totals and et cetera) and the bad(The defense holes, how it lacks in comparison to other sets, etc).
Great guide and advice Haetron. I liked it alot and it hit on alot of the points of why I don't play a /DA Brute. DA Scrapper is pretty sweet though, but Brute..never.
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
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Im really trying not to be insulting. Just ask anyone who knows my post history. If I want to come out and call someone an idiot, I normally just do. As I said, I knew what I was typing would sound like a personal attack on your end. It wasn't meant to be, and I said as much. If you still find offense, then that's your prerogative. You can feel better about being the bigger man. In either case, it's your worry, not mine. I'm just a rarity I guess, who doesn't believe in reserving tact for complete strangers. That's just too much caring and emotional investment without a return. I much prefer brutal honesty.
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To be "brutally honest", I'd say you come off as quite condescending, as well as way too impressed with yourself and your own subjective viewpoint.
And, of course, this isn't a personal attack. Just a "brutally honest" observation from an impartial observer.
...
To some of the people taking issue with the OP's analysis: the arrogance being projected in your posts probably isn't doing much for your arguments. It comes off as defensive. Might wanna scale back on that. Just a suggestion.
And not only is tact not something you need to "reserve" (not like you're gunna use it all up, right?), it's pretty much a requirement for forum participation (even if that's usually not enforced).
In short: get over yourselves and adopt some civility. That's my "brutally honest" advice. 'Cuz some of us out here would like to read a genuinely reasonable and reasoned debate on this topic.
Thanks.
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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.
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Then I think that then you undercut the premise of some of your own guide. If you use tier-9 performance to establish (conditional) superiority, then admit that people reserve that for when needed, then you need to analyze the comparative performance in terms of what happens when those things actually are needed.
Imagine you've got Elder Snakes, a DA and an ELA. The DA has some resistance and a big heal. In general, this is a good situation to be in - the DR alone is probably not enough, but it takes the edge off the damage to buy more time for the heal. The ELA has no resistance and a smaller but faster heal that may be interrupted by DoTs. The ELA might actually need his Power Surge there to match the pace the DA can roll at. The problem is it wears out - what then?
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You can actually of course, pace yourself between spawns, but no, you do point out a situation where Dark Armor would outdo Electric Armor.
It's also only one specific story arc, for the entire game.
Now, how often do you face Energy damage, and how often do you face Toxic?
One of the key factors of my dislike of Dark Armor is it's "gift" of being slightly better on a few resistances to less common resisted damage types ((Psionic especially)), but at the cost of having glaring holes to a common effect and damage types.
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I have just planned out a DM/DA brute. I also have a build for an invul/EM tanker. Both will have set IO's. When they both have their set IO's and are at level 50 my Brutes energy resistance will be about 23%, my tanker at about 27%. So then why are you not up in arms about the invulnerable tankers and tell others not to play an invulnerable tanker?
IMHO I believe that you as well as those that agree with you suffer more deaths due to fury lock than those that do not complain and just play their DA brutes. Also all of you may even suffer much more deaths due to fury lock, scrapper lock and maybe the new defiance lock than any other player. Still I would never make a guide that would tell players to never chose a set.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
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I have just planned out a DM/DA brute. I also have a build for an invul/EM tanker. Both will have set IO's. When they both have their set IO's and are at level 50 my Brutes energy resistance will be about 23%, my tanker at about 27%. So then why are you not up in arms about the invulnerable tankers and tell others not to play an invulnerable tanker?
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Because the guide is about Dark Armor, and comparison of sets baseline attributes? Some of the things done with IOs are great, true, but this is an extra level of investment to an already difficult to play, sub-par set.
Plus, saying "I can build to do this" doesn't do much good without providing an actual build to support the claim. Could you actually post the Dark Armor and Invulnerable builds?
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I have just planned out a DM/DA brute. I also have a build for an invul/EM tanker. Both will have set IO's. When they both have their set IO's and are at level 50 my Brutes energy resistance will be about 23%, my tanker at about 27%. So then why are you not up in arms about the invulnerable tankers and tell others not to play an invulnerable tanker?
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Because the guide is about Dark Armor, and comparison of sets baseline attributes? Some of the things done with IOs are great, true, but this is an extra level of investment to an already difficult to play, sub-par set.
Plus, saying "I can build to do this" doesn't do much good without providing an actual build to support the claim. Could you actually post the Dark Armor and Invulnerable builds?
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Before I actually post any builds tell me now what sets that an Invul/EM tanker or a DM/DA brute can take that would increase resistance to energy. Not any that I know of, now I could be wrong though. Let's stick with the brutes for this post.
I will use Mid's numbers. Here is the unslotted energy resistance for all brute secondaries. No tier nine's at all.
Dark: 15%
Electric: 61%
Energy: 9.4% although it is balanced by having a 20.6% def versus energy
Fire: 22.5%
Invulnerability: 13.1% which could not be balanced by a measly 4.6% defense versus energy
Stone: 0% and gets a 12% defense versus energy. Like to know how that could be balanced in your eyes.
Willpower: 5.6% offset by a 9.8% defense versus energy.
So if we are to go by the resistance numbers then the player must avoid not only DA, but all other secondaries except fire and electric. But yet you talk about DA. Now even though that energy damage is common, why did the devs in your opinion short change all other brute secondaries as far as energy resistance? I decided to add the defense numbers of the sets that had defense versus energy because they may tend to help a little bit. Just look at those numbers alone would make any shy away from them right, because everyone must be maxed out on energy resistance.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
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dudes just a troll.
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Funny, I don't remember his name on the troll roster...
((looks into it))
Stand UP.
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Guess I'm the odd one out. My first villain from COV launch is a level 50 Stone/Dark brute. Can't say it was easy mind you, the end use is insane, but I don't hate DA.
Took OP over CoF.
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You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
What exactly is this a guide to again?
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What exactly is this a guide to again?
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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?
I mean, hey, thanks for the bumps to keeping it up front, but the more appropriate action if the guide just offends your sensibilities so horribly, don't post, and just PM a mod and explain why you -dont- think it belongs here?
All of the "zomg ur wrong but I cant really say why so [censored]" replies aren't really helping DAs case.
Gilfred, haven't ignored your post, Ill reply later today when I have access to powerset numbers and such again.
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What exactly is this a guide to again?
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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?
I mean, hey, thanks for the bumps to keeping it up front, but the more appropriate action if the guide just offends your sensibilities so horribly, don't post, and just PM a mod and explain why you -dont- think it belongs here?
All of the "zomg ur wrong but I cant really say why so [censored]" replies aren't really helping DAs case.
Gilfred, haven't ignored your post, Ill reply later today when I have access to powerset numbers and such again.
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I think you are wrong, just like you think you are right. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. The whole point of my posts was to convey that I have FUN playing my /DA brutes and that many others do too and I, personally, enjoy playing sets I find fun (that's sort of the point of a GAME, everyone pays their $15 a month though). So what if it's more a challenge? Guess what? I don't feel like playing a fire/psi like everyone else seems to want to right now.
Dark Armor may not be for everyone but I enjoy playing the set. I just commented to convey my personal experiences with the set.
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What exactly is this a guide to again?
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Didn't you read it?
It's actually a pretty neat/different little guide as to how DA compares (unfavorably in the authors opinion) to other power sets.
Thoughtful readers can use it to make intelligent decisions as to how to "plug holes" in DA that are exposed through these comparisons, etc. You gets what you put into it.
After reading the pages of responses to this, I am impressed. You have managed to spark a debate. My experience with Bruting versus Scrapping leads me to reiterate an observation that I made earlier, before the discussion evolved into a full-blown debate that has, somehow, not completely degenerated into a flamefest--Dark Armor works well on a Brute, so long as one plays a Brute like a faster-moving Scrapper.
The new generation of players don't play Brutes like Scrappers. They play them in a fashion that most closely resembles an I3 Fire Tanker/Scrapper cross . It's a little sloppy; it's a lot of nasty; and it's very, very fast. Back in the day, I saw a few heavily HO'ed Claws Scrappers that came close to maintaing this kind of pace and playstyle.
The key lies in this statement:
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an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries
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In the typical ingame scenario, played competently, Dark Armor will equal or better any other Scrapper or Brute secondary in terms of increasing survivability. The catch is that it cannot do so while playing at breakneck speed. As the aggro gets hotter and the pace gets faster, Oppressive Gloom and Death Shroud decline in efficiency, Dark Regeneration becomes more dangerous, and the planning and positioning required to make sure that you don't get pounded slows you down. This is just a fact of playing Dark Armor.
The tighter you keep the aggro, the better the set performs. The more diffuse the aggro, the less impressive DA is. Those are just facts; it's certainly not a condemnation of the best overall defensive set in the game! There's nothing that says that you can't just play Dark Armor like you would if you were running Electric Armor; certainly your Brute won't just drop dead if you do so; OG will still stun mobs; Dark Regeneration will still have targets to heal you; and Death Shroud will continue to add extra damage to the fight. The problem is that you will take a performance hit, and that hit could easily be sufficient to diminish Dark Armor's overall performance enough to make it inferior to other sets played at the same pace.
Now, in my experience, a little bit of planning goes a long way in letting Dark Armor move quickly and stay upright, but there is no way to play a Dark Armor character as if it were in a raging, blind fury, fighting on the practical run and be reasonable in expecting it to perform at the levels of fire and forget secondaries.
I guess for me, what it comes down to is this: While I really want to disagree with Haetron's thesis, the sum of my years of Dark Armor testing, analysis, and ingame experiences just won't let me do so (more than weakly) in any intellectually honest fashion. 
ill just say this.. In pve.. Ive had more people face plant right next to me while i kept going.. and slugging away.. this is always after how much dark sucks.. and some how its my fault that they droped. These are usually the same exact people that also complain they need a corruptor.. Waaaaaa we cant do this mission without "support" !!!
I always laugh and say Umm what sucks? Its always the same comment.. Well my insp,power,attack didnt go off.. Or lucky shot.
they generally leave the team right after that usually spewing comments about how much dark sucks.
With IO's and a good build, (yes build is very important, Little tip, slot end reducs in your heavy attacks it will make the world of difference, along with learning to toggle ON and OFF COF,l OG, and Death shroud. Im always amazed on how people never toggle powers on and off when needed)
dark is IMO the most survivable PVE set there is. If im on a team with another brute, or scrapper, and im a Dark.. I never have to worry about being the one thats face plants, the other guy always beats me to it..
Yea dark sucks.. Arnet you that Brookland bridge salesman i saw the other day??
BTW on a personal note.. played the set for 2 years, and you finally decide to give up and right a Hate post about the set.. If you really hated it that much why even play it beyond a couple months? You sound more like someone that is in love with a girl and praise her daily for 2 years and then she dumps ya,,, then she is a Ugly XXXX. Its not the set.. its the user
haetron has a point. 'everything you can do I can do better' is true about DA.
but it misses the point altogether.
DA does NOTHING the best, but it DOES EVERYTHING.
Like dm/, DA is a toolkit. It has active defenses (CoF, OG) heal, stealth, debuff protection, defense (- to hit) resistance to nearly everything, most status protections including a few effects that nothing else has protection against, passive defenses, a damage aura, and a self-rez with a good disorient...a REALLY good disorient.
but, like all swiss army knives, it is not as powerful at doing any one thing. but against enemies with varied damage types (Carnies, arachnos) It is well-nigh unkilllable.
oh noes! if I get in over my head I may have to impair my fury generation for a few seconds by pulsing CoF or OG! -whah. That's why you can turn it off.
Yes, if you are an idiot that likes to turn on everything and then brainlessly mash the same three buttons over and over and over again you are going to have troubles. If you are someone that wants to run the content of the game, solo or team on relentless, and have the perfect tool for every occasion, then DA is for you.
So it's your choice.
Do you want to make up your own mind yourself and have a tool?
or listen to this moron and BE a tool?
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oh noes! if I get in over my head I may have to impair my fury generation for a few seconds by pulsing CoF or OG! -whah. That's why you can turn it off.
. If you are someone that wants to run the content of the game, solo or team on relentless, and have the perfect tool for every occasion, then DA is for you.
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I have no prob running solo on invici or on teams.. But you said it best when you said...
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Yes, if you are an idiot that likes to turn on everything and then brainlessly mash the same three buttons over and over and over again you are going to have troubles.
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dark is a more advanced set.. and needs more micro, and more, thought in game play/build. But the advanced user that likes a challenge can make this set do what others only dreamed of..
Try stacking some DEF with this set and you will learn what unkillable is.. think SR+dark.. def/resist/toys.. (BTW thats what the IO's are for.. any whole dark has can be more than filled with a nice set, but hey even with SO's its not bad, But an IO'd dark is just plain sick)
So hey, what's up, this just in from everyone's favorite speedster's Willpower brute: Willpower can resist psychic damage with Mind Over Body and High Pain Tolerance up to around 20.63 percent, not to mention Indomitable Will gives 7.5 percent to psychic defense that stacks with Rise to the Challenge's ToHit Debuff.
Oh, and not to mention with Strength of Will popped, psychic resist goes up to 30 percent. That's pretty good with no resist enhancements. Add in it's amazing regen with 25-27 a second, no health enhancements slotted with ONE enemy nearby to activate RttC, and well, whenever there's a psychic around I actually get to go in BEFORE the granite brute to tank the AV.
Dark Armor needs some love from the devs. It just sucks that some people like Deus_Furore have to be close-minded and insulting.
Anyways, enjoyed the post Haetron!
I'm amazing, so get over yourself.
lol. The thing that keeps me up at night is worrying what some anonymous forum-poster with all of 11 posts, or some net-nanny with her/his forum "ettiquette" rules, thinks about me as a person based off of words I type and they read on a screen...
Insulting? Sure. At times I can and will be, especially when it's called for. Just because it's a forum, doesn't mean i have to play nicey-nice. Im not trying to win a popularity contest like some people around here. the one thing I won't do is curse at someone or resort to emotional reactions. I don't "get mad" when i read the forums like some people. I've got thicker skin.
Close-minded? maybe, but then again, so is the OP. Don't see you mentioning that do we? Close minded people are anyone that doesn't agree with 'you'. that's the reality of the situation. Just because you try to paint a pretty picture and come off smelling like a objective third party observer, doesn't mean anyone is actually buying into it. Just as I'm not buying into the altruism and "Helpy-helperton" nature of this thread. There's enough conceit and self-rightness to go around in here.
I freely admit my humanity. You should try not to look so perfect. It only makes you look that much more flawed.
In closing, to the last poster,
Stop co-signing and post something original with some thought to it. Just an idea.
And as for a progress update, I'm setting up a team now of 8 dark brutes, wherein we will beat the RSF, and put it on video with a rigourous analysis of technique, builds, and strategy. That will pretty much be the culmination of the guide im working on that will pretty much forever end this debate, I hope. For all those folks out there who can't seem to wrap their noodle around the complexities of dark armor, hopefully the video will put it all into something easily understandable and with an in your face kind of irrefutability.
then again, for certain close-minded people out there, there really was no debate at all to begin with.
Isn't that right Haetron?
So... it's easier to insult the people you don't agree with rather than actually post constructive data on why you disagree with them? Huh.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Oh, yeah, I guess I didn't bring anything to this discussion. You know, not bring in the stats with Willpowers psychic resists. And the fact you've been badmouthing people supporting Haetron the entire time without saying anything to support your claims other than everyone but you and a few select others must not be a competent /dark armor user.
Also, I'd like to see how many nukes and shiv's you need to use to finish that. 
I'm amazing, so get over yourself.
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lol. The thing that keeps me up at night is worrying what some anonymous forum-poster with all of 11 posts, or some net-nanny with her/his forum "ettiquette" rules, thinks about me as a person based off of words I type and they read on a screen...
Insulting? Sure. At times I can and will be, especially when it's called for. Just because it's a forum, doesn't mean i have to play nicey-nice. Im not trying to win a popularity contest like some people around here. the one thing I won't do is curse at someone or resort to emotional reactions. I don't "get mad" when i read the forums like some people. I've got thicker skin.
Close-minded? maybe, but then again, so is the OP. Don't see you mentioning that do we? Close minded people are anyone that doesn't agree with 'you'. that's the reality of the situation. Just because you try to paint a pretty picture and come off smelling like a objective third party observer, doesn't mean anyone is actually buying into it. Just as I'm not buying into the altruism and "Helpy-helperton" nature of this thread. There's enough conceit and self-rightness to go around in here.
I freely admit my humanity. You should try not to look so perfect. It only makes you look that much more flawed.
In closing, to the last poster,
Stop co-signing and post something original with some thought to it. Just an idea.
And as for a progress update, I'm setting up a team now of 8 dark brutes, wherein we will beat the RSF, and put it on video with a rigourous analysis of technique, builds, and strategy. That will pretty much be the culmination of the guide im working on that will pretty much forever end this debate, I hope. For all those folks out there who can't seem to wrap their noodle around the complexities of dark armor, hopefully the video will put it all into something easily understandable and with an in your face kind of irrefutability.
then again, for certain close-minded people out there, there really was no debate at all to begin with.
Isn't that right Haetron?
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Can't wait for the guide. Are you running this RSF with or without Shivans/Warburg Nukes?
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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.
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Then I think that then you undercut the premise of some of your own guide. If you use tier-9 performance to establish (conditional) superiority, then admit that people reserve that for when needed, then you need to analyze the comparative performance in terms of what happens when those things actually are needed.
Imagine you've got Elder Snakes, a DA and an ELA. The DA has some resistance and a big heal. In general, this is a good situation to be in - the DR alone is probably not enough, but it takes the edge off the damage to buy more time for the heal. The ELA has no resistance and a smaller but faster heal that may be interrupted by DoTs. The ELA might actually need his Power Surge there to match the pace the DA can roll at. The problem is it wears out - what then?
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You can actually of course, pace yourself between spawns, but no, you do point out a situation where Dark Armor would outdo Electric Armor.
It's also only one specific story arc, for the entire game.
Now, how often do you face Energy damage, and how often do you face Toxic?
One of the key factors of my dislike of Dark Armor is it's "gift" of being slightly better on a few resistances to less common resisted damage types ((Psionic especially)), but at the cost of having glaring holes to a common effect and damage types.