Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 18:02 in Player Guides
First. Anyone that feels this guide is not a proper "guide", feel free to report it to the moderators, if it has not been done yet. The simple matter is, that I've repeatedly IG been asked my opinion on Dark Armor while playing my Brute, and I decided to type up my usual arguments so I can give them a more detailed analysis of what to expect via link after a brief "Don't take it unless you're looking for challenge and concept."
Someone mentioned the resistances being a "tertiary form" of mitigation. This is another part of the problem with dark armor. You're forced to rely on weaker, "tertiary" mitigation for most of your early levels, having the "control" portion not kick in until level 26. You do get access to the set crutch, Dark Regeneration, at 16, but itll take you another 3-5 levels to get it slotted properly.
Healing Flames can be slotted to get you a 49.3 percent heal for 10.4 endurance every 20.3 seconds, if you slot it with 3 Recharge/3 Heal. This is guaranteed healing, no specific situation required. Using level 40 IOs, 3 Recharge, 3 heal. Heck, this isn't even optimum slotting, using IOs, but just putting up some numbers.
Dark Regeneration, slotted for 2 Accuracy, 2 Endurance, and 2 Recharge with level 40 IOs, can get you a heal that can net your potentially 0-100 percent health, every 17 seconds, for 19.2 Endurance. Now again, the potency of Dark Regeneration in potential cannot be disputed. But, you're using almost twice the end for, at best, a twice as good heal. It's a fair trade, to be sure, except there will be situations where you will not get the 3 neccessary targets, for whatever reason, and the second you go into 2 or 1 target situations, Dark Regeneration has become inferior to Healing Flames.
Sephorus:
I didn't extend these complaints to Scrappers, because, as mentioned before, Scrappers only share 2 other sets with Brutes aside from Dark Armor, and Scrappers are -not- expected to fulfill the same team roles as Brutes.
Again, not arguing they may not be the best AT for it, but you will, more often than not, find your Brute in a situation where they need to "Tank" for the team more commonly than you would your scrapper, because in CoV the role is disputed between MMs and Brutes, where as CoH no such dispute exists.
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So in summary, you just don't see the point of many--um, in fact, all--of the things that others might call strengths of DA (very high Psi resistance; high Negative resistance; good Toxic resistance; a stun toggle; a fear toggle; a good damage/end trade-off on the PBAoE attack toggle; +Perception; Stealth).
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The "good Toxic resist" was already disproven earlier in this thread. I explained why the "High Negative Resist" is not as beneficial as might be thought, in practice. Psionics, I've not disputed, except to say that you can use Electric and do almost as well and not have to worry about the glaring energy hole the set has. And Energy is much more common a weakness than Toxic.
How is it a good "Damage/End tradeoff" on the PBAOE toggle when it actually does less damage for the same end as Fire Armor's toggle, and the same damage as Electrics toggle, but has no beneficial second effect?
That leaves the melee range mez generating toggles, which come late enough in the game that at the point you can use them, you already have the tools -normally- in your primary to deal with the same things they're capable of.
People run their armor toggles at low levels? Really?
I usually don't bother turning my armor toggles on until the mid to high teens, and then only situationally. With Stamina and SOs I finally turn them on and leave them on (also bump the difficulty up at this point).
You can cruise solo through 1 - 22 fairly easily with hardly ever running your toggles on villainous difficulty. My SS/DA is 21 now and she has only been played for a couple of days.
I guess what I am saying is that at low levels I never rely on my armor (regardless of what set) to keep me alove, I rely on my attacks to do that.
Amusingly, in a team context, my DA Scrapper is normally one of the first characters to pile into large spawns for precicely the reason that I immediately disable many of them - I fill a role somewhere between that of Tanker and Controller.
(I do have a DA Brute, I'm just bringing up the Scrapper in response to your mention of roles.)
I really believe this comes down to playstyle - that you have a preferred playstyle for which Dark Armor is a poor fit. That's fine. I think I and possibly others posting here have found (and can enjoy) playstyles that fit DA's strengths and weakensses. The problem that remains then is that your guide doesn't really talk about that - it tries to assert that DA is numerically inferior and/or inferior based on the frequencey with which its weaknesses are exploited by the game. At best it tries to assert that DA is contrary to the building of Fury. That, at least, I can agree with to an extent.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
One of the things I'd like to mention is that Haetron hasn't ever said it wasn't playable. Every AT is playable, every combination. Any player who tries can make every possible AT combination work.
But every barrell has to have a bottom. I think mostly his argument is centered around that DA is the bottom of the barrell for brute secondaries. His original post never mentioned primaries or IO sets--just basic numbers and personal observations (such as the PBAOE fear and stun toggles) based on playing a DA brute.
As was mentioned somewhere else, there are DA brutes who are awesomtastic to watch. They can mop the floor up with about anything. The same is also true of any player who is used to playing any AT and knows how to work it. The impression I got from this was that, well, compared to other sets, new people would probably get more out of other brute secondaries if they're playing a brute for the first time, or just want to try out DA.
I thought the post was logical, well-written, had facts to support his arguments, made leaps of logic that made sense, and was good to read. As Deebs said earlier, it's nice to see a guide that isn't all sweetness and light, that does point out the bad points of a set and does so in a rational manner without ranting.
I also note that he's provided feedback to constructive comments, and provoked a discussion. Discussions are good. 
He's also given up points when people have given him a logical, well-thought out reason to do so.
I like that we can have nice discussions.
Anyway, thanks for the write up Haetron.
"Looks like we arrived in the nick of time. What does that make us?"
"Big damn heroes, sir."
"Ain't we just."
-Mal & Zoe, "Firefly"
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Amusingly, in a team context, my DA Scrapper is normally one of the first characters to pile into large spawns for precicely the reason that I immediately disable many of them - I fill a role somewhere between that of Tanker and Controller.
(I do have a DA Brute, I'm just bringing up the Scrapper in response to your mention of roles.)
I really believe this comes down to playstyle - that you have a preferred playstyle for which Dark Armor is a poor fit. That's fine. I think I and possibly others posting here have found (and can enjoy) playstyles that fit DA's strengths and weakensses. The problem that remains then is that your guide doesn't really talk about that - it tries to assert that DA is numerically inferior and/or inferior based on the frequencey with which its weaknesses are exploited by the game. At best it tries to assert that DA is contrary to the building of Fury. That, at least, I can agree with to an extent.
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But, and here's a thing. The guide isn't titled "an analysis of the pros and cons of Dark Armor", it's plainly titled to match the fact the point is to describe potential reasons you should not play it.
I'd also like to say that Haetron has been very calm, patient, and reasonable during his responses, at least in the sense that this hasn't ignited a flame war or gotten ugly. Given the level of resistance he's gotten, that's a good thing. Thanks, Haetron.
On the other hand, I've read a lot of guides for ATs--it's one of the first things I do when I pick a powerset. They're very rarely all sweetness and light--generally they note powers that are really useful, powers that are situational, and powers that are just too weak to ever make sense in practice. And they're very handy.
This is not one of those, and you only need to read the title of the thread to be clear on why. It's not an assessment of relative strengths and weaknesses, it's an argument piece that says, literally, that you should never play a DA brute. That's why I keep coming back to the point that there are many points of comparison between DA and other sets that really aren't fair.
To take an example, Haetron hasn't, despite his claims to the contrary, "proven" that DA has mediocre Toxic resistance--he's compared DA, which has a good Toxic resistance that is on a toggle, with powersets that get better Toxic resistance by using Tier 9 boosts to DR. This is like comparing apples to oranges. Those boosts are temporary and on a long recharge timer. They are highly situational.
Should I respond that DA has a _MAG 30_ PBAoE stun in its Tier 9? I mean, WHOA. Mag _30_. "Going by the numbers", DA Brutes can control better than Uber-Doms, with a vastly superior stun, plus resistances, high HP, and tons of high melee damage. Except, of course, that this Mag 30 stun is highly situational. It's not fair to pretend that a DA Brute can just click it on whenever they want, and I wouldn't. Haetron, on the other hand, is doing exactly this with the resistance values for several other sets.
He is deeply disturbed by Dark Regen for a number of reasons that are not unique to Dark Regen. Consume is very similar to Dark Regen, only for END instead of health. It's PBAoE, so if you don't have a mob around, it's not as powerful. It's also got an ACC check. It's vital, because if you have no END, you have no armor and you die. Similar limitations apply to Energy Drain. But Energy Drain and Consume are just fine to Haetron. Dark Regen isn't. That's not a fair assessment.
He is peeved by the fact that we keep pointing out that DA's hole in KB protection is easily filled by an IO in one slot. But it doesn't bother him that EA's lack of a self-heal must be filled with, in his own words, a "well-slotted" tier2 power pool choice. That's not a fair assessment.
Haetron's post IS a rant, albeit one kept in the "inside voices" volume range.
A fair assessment would be one that says "DA Brutes have powers that make them really strong when fighting against a room full of opponents, but rather weak against single, Mez-protected superbads. They won't be hunting AVs while solo, and of course one-on-one PvP isn't going to be their strong point either. So if you do a lot of fighting against the lone uberopponent and like to tell everyone how you did the LRSF alone, DA is probably not for you. But there's no better Brute to have around when you've got some nitwit on the team who just aggroed 5 mobs--those baddies will be so busy trying to decide whether to cower or stagger that the DA Brute will mop the floor with them and look good doing it."
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But, and here's a thing. The guide isn't titled "an analysis of the pros and cons of Dark Armor", it's plainly titled to match the fact the point is to describe potential reasons you should not play it.
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Ah, OK. Well, if we're at the point where you're saying "hey, I'm not trying to be _fair_, I'm trying to get you to not play DA. Didn't you read the title, f'r crying out loud?", then I think I can stop spending my time trying to have a reasoned debate with you.
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To take an example, Haetron hasn't, despite his claims to the contrary, "proven" that DA has mediocre Toxic resistance--he's compared DA, which has a good Toxic resistance that is on a toggle, with powersets that get better Toxic resistance by using Tier 9 boosts to DR. This is like comparing apples to oranges. Those boosts are temporary and on a long recharge timer. They are highly situational.
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But, they're available, and they can't be -disabled- and fired, generating the endurance loss, and power usage, but not generating the beneficial effect.
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Should I respond that DA has a _MAG 30_ PBAoE stun in its Tier 9? I mean, WHOA. Mag _30_. "Going by the numbers", DA Brutes can control better than Uber-Doms, with a vastly superior stun, plus resistances, high HP, and tons of high melee damage. Except, of course, that this Mag 30 stun is highly situational. It's not fair to pretend that a DA Brute can just click it on whenever they want, and I wouldn't. Haetron, on the other hand, is doing exactly this with the resistance values for several other sets.
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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.
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He is deeply disturbed by Dark Regen for a number of reasons that are not unique to Dark Regen. Consume is very similar to Dark Regen, only for END instead of health. It's PBAoE, so if you don't have a mob around, it's not as powerful. It's also got an ACC check. It's vital, because if you have no END, you have no armor and you die. Similar limitations apply to Energy Drain. But Energy Drain and Consume are just fine to Haetron. Dark Regen isn't. That's not a fair assessment.
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But, if you have no end, you don't neccessarily always die. There are the possibilities of passive resistances, which Dark Armor does not have, Boosted HP, which Dark Armor doesn't have, or passive Defenses, which Dark Armor does not have. Also, HP is a much more vital stat than Endurance, as when it does hit 0, you die, no questions asked.
Consume, Energy Drain, and Power Sink are all useful -utility- tools, and not a crutch the entire set is designed around.
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He is peeved by the fact that we keep pointing out that DA's hole in KB protection is easily filled by an IO in one slot. But it doesn't bother him that EA's lack of a self-heal must be filled with, in his own words, a "well-slotted" tier2 power pool choice. That's not a fair assessment.
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The benefit of an anti-knockback IO versus the use of power slots is not exactly equal. However, too many people are harping on the value of the anti-knockback IO, when they don't provide the full level of KB protection. It takes multiple KB IOs to reach the level of protection most standard mezz protection powers give.
Aid Self -does- have the issue of being able to be interrupted, generating cost with no benefit, but the situations it is usable in still makes it a valid and good power choice.
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Haetron's post IS a rant, albeit one kept in the "inside voices" volume range.
A fair assessment would be one that says "DA Brutes have powers that make them really strong when fighting against a room full of opponents, but rather weak against single, Mez-protected superbads. They won't be hunting AVs while solo, and of course one-on-one PvP isn't going to be their strong point either. So if you do a lot of fighting against the lone uberopponent and like to tell everyone how you did the LRSF alone, DA is probably not for you. But there's no better Brute to have around when you've got some nitwit on the team who just aggroed 5 mobs--those baddies will be so busy trying to decide whether to cower or stagger that the DA Brute will mop the floor with them and look good doing it."
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Except, and this is where you're starting to truly just argue opinions, and not actual numerical advantages. Other Armor sets can do this just as well, and not have to deal with the weaknesses that Dark Armor is exposed to.
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But, and here's a thing. The guide isn't titled "an analysis of the pros and cons of Dark Armor", it's plainly titled to match the fact the point is to describe potential reasons you should not play it.
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Ah, OK. Well, if we're at the point where you're saying "hey, I'm not trying to be _fair_, I'm trying to get you to not play DA. Didn't you read the title, f'r crying out loud?", then I think I can stop spending my time trying to have a reasoned debate with you.
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I feel that I'm trying to be perfectly fair with the counter arguments, but if you don't wish to discuss it further, it's no worry for me.
Hey, no worries, I'm just dropping by a final time to let you know to watch out for my fact-filled, forthcoming guide:
"Why you should never play anything other than a Dark Armor Brute."
It's sure to be full of Awesome, and win. Oh, and lots of numbers, cause thats how I roll. Mainly from all the data-mining I've done over the past week. you know, actual testing, as opposed to pulling numbers from builders and going "here, see, I'm right!"
Stay tuned.
I'm curious. How many people collaborated with you in your datamining, Deus?
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Hey, no worries, I'm just dropping by a final time to let you know to watch out for my fact-filled, forthcoming guide:
"Why you should never play anything other than a Dark Armor Brute."
It's sure to be full of Awesome, and win. Oh, and lots of numbers, cause thats how I roll. Mainly from all the data-mining I've done over the past week. you know, actual testing, as opposed to pulling numbers from builders and going "here, see, I'm right!"
Stay tuned.
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Ill be really interested on how much spin you'll be able to put on the base numbers Dark Armor provides, that'll actually put it -above- what other sets provide with better base numbers.
And of course, again, Im sure you'll offer a comparison point that is on completely equal ground with an equal amount of datamining in the same situations that you tested your Dark Armor on, right? To prove it's so much better.
And again, of course all I did was pull numbers and compare and say "See, Im right" and didn't explain the justification behind any of them.
Man, if Dark Armor was half as defensive as the people that play it, I'd probably have not felt the need to write up the guide in the first place.
Here's the thing you really, really, really don't get haetron.
Statistics can be created and facts can be used to support any position. I can take the same "facts" and numbers that you've been touting all week and show how they actually support my position instead.
Your analysis is incomplete and flawed.
I'm about to show you what a complete and thorough analysis looks like. I've got 14 players assisting me with dataminding. Every Primary and secondary covered. And the "facts" we're seeing are so far from what your own experience has led you to believe, after you read it, if you in fact do so (which i really doubt ), you'll either be left with a few explanations:
We're all a bunch of liars and we made it all up...
We're playing a different game than you are...
Or, and this is my personal belief...
your own experience, has led you to believe a certain thing and in order to escape the reality that this has placed you in, you've set about trying, and in some measure succeeding, in hoodwinking not only yourself, but everyone else in the process using numbers and situational comparisons that only support your own very limited and narrow analysis.
It could very well be, that you, like many others, just aren't cut out to play the best armor set in the game for brutes. You neither understand it, and you really don't understand yourself.
I realize this sounds like a personal attack, but rest assured it isn't. I'm not calling you stupid, or a crappy player. I'm simply suggesting that instead of finding fault with the game, and a power-set that you just plain don't like (for who knows why, probably bad experience), you instead just take a step back and try to reconcile why you have such a vastly different experience from a minority of players with collectively a metric ton of experience at not only the game, but the power-set you're ranting against.
And make no mistake, it is a rant, cleverly wrapped up in objectivity, but transparently subjective nonetheless.
And of course, I will offer multiple comparisons with equal footing for all the armor sets.
And this comment is really exactly what I'm talking about:
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Ill be really interested on how much spin you'll be able to put on the base numbers Dark Armor provides, that'll actually put it -above- what other sets provide with better base numbers.
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That statement really does highlight my point. You only want to talk about base numbers, because only those numbers back up your side of the argument to any credible degree. You won't talk much about Dark's control powers because no other set has those, and those are the very powers that make up for, and in my experience, surpass the survivability of every other set.
Seriously, I'm not the only person that is seeing this type of doublethink on your part.
Frankly I'm tired of people with the mentality that the game mechanics are at fault for their own contradictory, or in some cases, just plain flawed play style.
And as for the spin comment, you've done plenty of spinning yourself. Of course, no one thinks they spin anything themselves, it's always the people that don't agree with you that spin...
You and Fox news bud. Fair and balanced...
anyways, thats it.
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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.
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This appears terribly flawed to me. You cannot simply assess their availability with such sweeping terms. An example of how to analyze this sort of thing is in Arcanaville's comparative surivivability comparisons. You have to compare both uptime of clicks versis consistent value of toggles/passives and the more discrete effects of needing to click things (there are transitional periods where you simply cannot activate the power even when you want it).
This would be similar to basing Invincibility's survivability on the assumption that it fired Unstoppable constantly. Doing so creates a terribly skewed view because if you actually absolutely need Unstoppable to survive then you are almost guaranteed to die (or flee) when it ends, and would probably do so even if it had no crash at all.
This is the sort of thing I think Deus is referring to as the spin. Your assertions sound reasonable and I don't neccessarily think you out to be dishonest, but I think you're glossing over important analytical details that would lead to different conclusions if you actually analyzed them more carefully.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Wait, so that whole post basically boils down to "your numbers don't mean a thing" and "lrn2play"? Wow, last time I saw that one come out, the people on the blaster boards got PISSED!
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Here's the thing you really, really, really don't get haetron.
Statistics can be created and facts can be used to support any position. I can take the same "facts" and numbers that you've been touting all week and show how they actually support my position instead.
Your analysis is incomplete and flawed.
I'm about to show you what a complete and thorough analysis looks like. I've got 14 players assisting me with dataminding. Every Primary and secondary covered. And the "facts" we're seeing are so far from what your own experience has led you to believe, after you read it, if you in fact do so (which i really doubt ), you'll either be left with a few explanations:
We're all a bunch of liars and we made it all up...
We're playing a different game than you are...
Or, and this is my personal belief...
your own experience, has led you to believe a certain thing and in order to escape the reality that this has placed you in, you've set about trying, and in some measure succeeding, in hoodwinking not only yourself, but everyone else in the process using numbers and situational comparisons that only support your own very limited and narrow analysis.
It could very well be, that you, like many others, just aren't cut out to play the best armor set in the game for brutes. You neither understand it, and you really don't understand yourself.
I realize this sounds like a personal attack, but rest assured it isn't. I'm not calling you stupid, or a crappy player. I'm simply suggesting that instead of finding fault with the game, and a power-set that you just plain don't like (for who knows why, probably bad experience), you instead just take a step back and try to reconcile why you have such a vastly different experience from a minority of players with collectively a metric ton of experience at not only the game, but the power-set you're ranting against.
And make no mistake, it is a rant, cleverly wrapped up in objectivity, but transparently subjective nonetheless.
And of course, I will offer multiple comparisons with equal footing for all the armor sets.
And this comment is really exactly what I'm talking about:
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Ill be really interested on how much spin you'll be able to put on the base numbers Dark Armor provides, that'll actually put it -above- what other sets provide with better base numbers.
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That statement really does highlight my point. You only want to talk about base numbers, because only those numbers back up your side of the argument to any credible degree. You won't talk much about Dark's control powers because no other set has those, and those are the very powers that make up for, and in my experience, surpass the survivability of every other set.
Seriously, I'm not the only person that is seeing this type of doublethink on your part.
Frankly I'm tired of people with the mentality that the game mechanics are at fault for their own contradictory, or in some cases, just plain flawed play style.
And as for the spin comment, you've done plenty of spinning yourself. Of course, no one thinks they spin anything themselves, it's always the people that don't agree with you that spin...
You and Fox news bud. Fair and balanced...
anyways, thats it.
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Thanks for generally being as insulting as possible. It's appreciated. Ill be glad to read this guide, and see what you've come up with.
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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.
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This appears terribly flawed to me. You cannot simply assess their availability with such sweeping terms. An example of how to analyze this sort of thing is in Arcanaville's comparative surivivability comparisons. You have to compare both uptime of clicks versis consistent value of toggles/passives and the more discrete effects of needing to click things (there are transitional periods where you simply cannot activate the power even when you want it).
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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.
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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.
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This appears terribly flawed to me. You cannot simply assess their availability with such sweeping terms. An example of how to analyze this sort of thing is in Arcanaville's comparative surivivability comparisons. You have to compare both uptime of clicks versis consistent value of toggles/passives and the more discrete effects of needing to click things (there are transitional periods where you simply cannot activate the power even when you want it).
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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.
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I know you may find this quite silly but your whole thread actually makes me want to roll a DM/DA brute. I will choose DM since I have experience about that primary. The thing is I think that just like DM/DA scrapper power sets are misunderstood by many the same is true for the brute.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
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Exactly why can't you click them when you need them? The only reason you could not, would be if you had used them previously, and that still shows their overall usefulness.
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This appears terribly flawed to me. You cannot simply assess their availability with such sweeping terms. An example of how to analyze this sort of thing is in Arcanaville's comparative surivivability comparisons. You have to compare both uptime of clicks versis consistent value of toggles/passives and the more discrete effects of needing to click things (there are transitional periods where you simply cannot activate the power even when you want it).
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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.
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Im really trying not to be insulting. Just ask anyone who knows my post history. If I want to come out and call someone an idiot, I normally just do. As I said, I knew what I was typing would sound like a personal attack on your end. It wasn't meant to be, and I said as much. If you still find offense, then that's your prerogative. You can feel better about being the bigger man. In either case, it's your worry, not mine. I'm just a rarity I guess, who doesn't believe in reserving tact for complete strangers. That's just too much caring and emotional investment without a return. I much prefer brutal honesty.
However, I don't know how to word the "whats and wheres" that I have found at fault in your posts anywhere other than smack dab on your shoulders.
You have information in front of you, but like Uberguy has stated, and others here have been trying to call your attention to, you continue to gloss over the ones that may not agree with you and only see what you want to. Since your mind is closed on the subject, you shouldn't be surprised or offended when everyone else's is as well.
I suppose the same could be said by you of the other side of the house, but you have to understand what you are doing here; you're challenging other people's experiences as well as challenging a very vocal and powerful minority.
You are in effect saying that my experience with Dark Armor (and many other posters), which up to this point has been a resounding success, has for all practical purposes been some kind of fluke. You won't consider player skill, which I brought up intending to give your ideas about fury limitations some merit, albeit falling short of that, so that leaves everyone at an em'passe.
If you're allowed to question my experience with your own and numbers that supposedly support your stance, then I am allowed to call into question the context and reasonability of that experience.
Funny, I don't recall anything about him saying one couldn't be successful with /DA, or that doing so would be a fluke, just that for most cases and situations, other secondaries are generally better picks.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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I'm just a rarity I guess, who doesn't believe in reserving tact for complete strangers. That's just too much caring and emotional investment without a return. I much prefer brutal honesty.
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I give you the hug you need ((( HUG )))
Seriously though. Fun guide! It's nice to hear the darker side of things for once. Lots of interesting points.
I do believe though, that /Dark Armor for a brute can be effective when played correctly and slotted correctly, although the average player may not be able to handle those things right away. And, of course, the player has to be willing to understand that /Dark doesn't operate at the same effectiveness as most of the other brute armor sets.
Regardless of what others have said, and what numbers they may have, any of my brutes that are not /dark armor have performed in teams far better than any /dark armor that I've played or played alongside. Of course, this could all be a matter of perception, right? Or maybe I'm just teaming with people who don't know how to play /dark armor correctly. But I do have to say, some of them were very experienced, and seemed to enjoy playing the set, even if it meant being weaker than other brutes.
So, all in all, thank you for the informative guide. It may help new players of brutes find an "easier" set to try first. Of course, I make my characters for concept reasons, so I'll just make sure I don't come up with any dark ideas!
The freakin' Havoc Star! (And all seven clones.)
Plus a bunch of characters that nobody likes who will remain nameless.
Awesome Avatar by Fixer.
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Funny, I don't recall anything about him saying one couldn't be successful with /DA, or that doing so would be a fluke, just that for most cases and situations, other secondaries are generally better picks.
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O RLY?
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The goal is to prevent anyone from ever considering playing the set for any reason than concept, or the fact they -want- the game to be difficult.
...
multiple weakspots it has that render it one of the weakest Brute secondaries.
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Sorry, I guess the whole pros and cons part was in some post I didn't read? haetron doesn't leave much to the imagination about his opinions on dark armor. He clearly believes it the worst set, and through his post he has communicated that dark armor has no pros, we're all just confused and misguided. The pros are really cons in disguise... Clearly anyone with a dark armor brute can't even be as successful in any PvE or PvP as every other secondary set. He plainly stated how each of them were a better choice. Unequivocably, no less...
Honestly, I appreciate your efforts to mediate, but its really unnecessary.
"Couldn't be -as- successful", does not equal "Could not be successful".
I also mentioned it's still THE set for Psionic damage resistance, and that this was something that the set did well, but, it's simply not (imo) worth the sacrafices made elsewhere for the set to have that resistance number.
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Except, those transitional periods almost never come up in casual game play, people save their Tier 9's for situations where they will actually need them, and don't fire them the instant they're available just because they are there. Im not trying to pretend that T9 resistance numbers are permanent parts of gameplay, but then, Toxic damage almost never is either.
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Then I think that then you undercut the premise of some of your own guide. If you use tier-9 performance to establish (conditional) superiority, then admit that people reserve that for when needed, then you need to analyze the comparative performance in terms of what happens when those things actually are needed.
Imagine you've got Elder Snakes, a DA and an ELA. The DA has some resistance and a big heal. In general, this is a good situation to be in - the DR alone is probably not enough, but it takes the edge off the damage to buy more time for the heal. The ELA has no resistance and a smaller but faster heal that may be interrupted by DoTs. The ELA might actually need his Power Surge there to match the pace the DA can roll at. The problem is it wears out - what then?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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An example of how to analyze this sort of thing is in Arcanaville's comparative surivivability comparisons.
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Lost in the final guide is the fact that the linked guide is the final iteration of an analysis piece I wrote for I3, I4, I5, and I7. Dark Armor only shows up at all in the late I5 version, and only completely in the I7 version, because I specifically stated I would not cover dark armor until I had played it to sufficiently high level to be able to verify my calculations against actual in-game experiences and test conditions both. That didn't happen until I6. A similar self-imposed restriction occured for Regeneration until the I5 version, for comparable reasons (I played regen, but not high enough to be able to comment confidently on its strength against the end of the level curve until around I5).
There's a reason those guides have lasted this long, and five issues of continuous peer scruitiny are responsible for most of it. It was not, as some people think, simply overwhelming people with numbers. It was *hammered* in every version, and every version incorporates the comments of the previous one. All of Part Two is specifically to address the continuous long-running critique "averages don't represent the actual game."
The example it should set is not in its length, or even necessarily in its methodology per se. Its in its long-running systematic and logical answering of the questions posed to it by lots of players over lots of time.
And no, I'm not currently contemplating updating it for inventions.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Query.
Since the resistances and control toggles seem to be a major point of contest with why DA 'sucks', is there any particular reason why you haven't extended these complaints to Scrappers? I'm just curious why it sucks for one AT and not another, despite being the exact same set in terms of strength.