Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 18:02 in Player Guides
Weaker does not mean useless. Try harder.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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To date, I have seen this same mission run on a six person spawn by an EM/Elec, EM/EA, and Fire/Stone brute with no outside assistance.
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If the /Stone ran using Granite then they'll be a big outlier compared to all other sets in terms of what sort of damage they can soak.
That said, for this mission a DA has sigificantly better overall mitigation than Elec unless the person happens to actually be using their drains as mitigation - something that I have never actually known any player do intentionally to date.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Weaker does not mean useless. Try harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the parts Arcanaville highlighted in yellow clearly say "don't ever play this." If no one should ever play it it's pretty useless, no?
Try less hard.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I see the OP saying that playing it is a bad idea, that it is overall weak and ineffective, and that other than concept or difficulty, one should not play /DA, but at no point does he say that it is useless. There IS a difference. Even /EA is weak and ultimately ineffective, but by no means useless.
So yes, please, try harder.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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I see the OP saying that playing it is a bad idea, that it is overall weak and ineffective, and that other than concept or difficulty, one should not play /DA, but at no point does he say that it is useless. There IS a difference. Even /EA is weak and ultimately ineffective, but by no means useless.
So yes, please, try harder.
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So just look at the OP title:
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Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
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That sounds like someone saying something is useless to me.
You fail. 
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And the parts Arcanaville highlighted in yellow clearly say "don't ever play this." If no one should ever play it it's pretty useless, no?
Try less hard.
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The goal is to prevent anyone from ever considering playing the set for any reason than concept, or the fact they -want- the game to be difficult.
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Aside from that one, which I'll focus on.
There are two ways to play this game.
1. Efficient. Getting the best results you can within a character, top bang-for-buck and the like. THIS is what the OP is saying /DA doesn't play too well at. But at the same time the above quote allows for...
2. Characterful. Playing the game how YOU like and YOU enjoy. Play that FF/Energy Offender, just have fun.
The OP isn't saying "NEVER PLAY /DA! Delete it from the game!" He's saying that you can play it if you want, but don't expect it to be FOTM any time soon.
Additional:
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So just look at the OP title:
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Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sounds like someone saying something is useless to me.
You fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, that's not saying something is useless at all.
I buy a car. Not a great car, but it works at getting me from A to B. Someone else buys a BETTER car for the same price, it gets him from A to B quicker and safer. My car still has a use (the A->B mentioned above), but if the option is available for the better car, it makes sense to get it if I'm after the best car I can get.
So, because there are better cars then my own for the same price, does that make my car useless? Not at all. It's just not as good.
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I see the OP saying that playing it is a bad idea, that it is overall weak and ineffective, and that other than concept or difficulty, one should not play /DA, but at no point does he say that it is useless. There IS a difference. Even /EA is weak and ultimately ineffective, but by no means useless.
So yes, please, try harder.
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IMHO the OP is like some people that do not want to say what they really feel because they know what would happen if they did. Just like people would not say what the radio announcer did about a girls basketball team that got him in trouble. Instead they beat around the bush and hint at it. That is what the OP is doing. He is hinting at DA is useless, because he know that if he says it is useless he would get all kinds of nasty pm's and responses.
The title of the thread alone along with the body of the post is basically saying he is trying to prevent players from ever using DA for brutes. He is the type that may even try to do the same while he is in the game. If players never use a set then you have to ask the question why. The logical conclusion would be either he is trying to get everyone to play the FoTM's of the month, the min/max builds or he is saying to stay away from DA because it is useless without really saying it. The word useless does not have to be in his post in order for him to say it.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
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And the parts Arcanaville highlighted in yellow clearly say "don't ever play this." If no one should ever play it it's pretty useless, no?
Try less hard.
[/ QUOTE ]
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The goal is to prevent anyone from ever considering playing the set for any reason than concept, or the fact they -want- the game to be difficult.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aside from that one, which I'll focus on.
There are two ways to play this game.
1. Efficient. Getting the best results you can within a character, top bang-for-buck and the like. THIS is what the OP is saying /DA doesn't play too well at. But at the same time the above quote allows for...
2. Characterful. Playing the game how YOU like and YOU enjoy. Play that FF/Energy Offender, just have fun.
The OP isn't saying "NEVER PLAY /DA! Delete it from the game!" He's saying that you can play it if you want, but don't expect it to be FOTM any time soon.
Additional:
[ QUOTE ]
So just look at the OP title:
[ QUOTE ]
Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
That sounds like someone saying something is useless to me.
You fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dude, that's not saying something is useless at all.
I buy a car. Not a great car, but it works at getting me from A to B. Someone else buys a BETTER car for the same price, it gets him from A to B quicker and safer. My car still has a use (the A->B mentioned above), but if the option is available for the better car, it makes sense to get it if I'm after the best car I can get.
So, because there are better cars then my own for the same price, does that make my car useless? Not at all. It's just not as good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look the OP does not have to say that it is useless in his post but he can hint at it or beat around the bush about saying it. He knows full well the response he would get if he said that it is useless so he chose to go the route he did in his posts.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
I wasn't going to poke my nose in here again, but I watched that video... and yeah. I see what Haetron was saying now about Dark Regeneration being a crutch.
"Looks like we arrived in the nick of time. What does that make us?"
"Big damn heroes, sir."
"Ain't we just."
-Mal & Zoe, "Firefly"
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I see the OP saying that playing it is a bad idea, that it is overall weak and ineffective, and that other than concept or difficulty, one should not play /DA, but at no point does he say that it is useless. There IS a difference. Even /EA is weak and ultimately ineffective, but by no means useless.
So yes, please, try harder.
[/ QUOTE ]
IMHO the OP is like some people that do not want to say what they really feel because they know what would happen if they did. Just like people would not say what the radio announcer did about a girls basketball team that got him in trouble. Instead they beat around the bush and hint at it. That is what the OP is doing. He is hinting at DA is useless, because he know that if he says it is useless he would get all kinds of nasty pm's and responses.
The title of the thread alone along with the body of the post is basically saying he is trying to prevent players from ever using DA for brutes. He is the type that may even try to do the same while he is in the game. If players never use a set then you have to ask the question why. The logical conclusion would be either he is trying to get everyone to play the FoTM's of the month, the min/max builds or he is saying to stay away from DA because it is useless without really saying it. The word useless does not have to be in his post in order for him to say it.
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That is taking assumptions on what he is saying. So, if you wish to attribute him to saying that /DA is useless, please do so when he actually does and not when you feel they do. Otherwise, are we to believe that Arcanaville thinks /SR is useless because it has a lower immortality line according to her comparison?
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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I wasn't going to poke my nose in here again, but I watched that video... and yeah. I see what Haetron was saying now about Dark Regeneration being a crutch.
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, what?
So Granite is a crutch for Stone? Dull Pain is a crutch for Regen? Invincibility is a crutch for Invuln?
If you want to declare a cornerstone power in a powerset a "crutch" then we can go around doing that with nearly every powerset in the game.
Dark Regen is a cornerstone to the tremendous mitigation that Dark Armor can achieve. How that makes it a "crutch" is beyond me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That is taking assumptions on what he is saying. So, if you wish to attribute him to saying that /DA is useless, please do so when he actually does and not when you feel they do. Otherwise, are we to believe that Arcanaville thinks /SR is useless because it has a lower immortality line according to her comparison?
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It's a fundamental aspect of human communication to be able to read between the lines when taking in what another human being says. We all use commonly understood shades of meaning to color the words we use with more meaning than they convey in a literal sense. Inherently it may be the case that the listener/reader sometimes interprets this incorrectly.
However, it's ludicrous to try and argue that there's a meaningful communications separation in the following concepts.
"You should never use this approach because it is the weakest, least effecive approach possible."
"This approach is useless."
Stating that something is useless doesn't require that it absolutely not work at all. It can be "useless" when viewed in comparison to all the other available options. It was common , for example, for people to claim that level 50 Training Origin drops were "useless", because no one would ever want to slot them and they sold for junk prices. There's no "use" for an option to which all other options are superior, which is a specific claim the OP makes multiple times.
Moreover, Arcanaville has never tried to convince people not to play lower immortality line powersets, even in cases where their lines appear dramatically lower than those of their peers (sometihng I believe is actually represented more strongly among Brutes than Scrappers).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Perhaps, but once again you are taking an assumption on his meaning based on "reading between the lines." If you wish to find out if he thought the set as useless, then ask him for clarification on whether or not he does feel the set useless. If he answers positively to that, then you can make such a claim. Otherwise, you're reading into a conclusion that is not presented.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Most guides fall into obscurity after a week or so. The flame fest keeps this guide on page 1, though.
The irony.
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Weaker does not mean useless. Try harder.
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Ineffective does tends to mean useless.
Come back when you've published a dictionary to the language of your home planet, and maybe I'll reexamine your point.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Ineffective- Not producing desired effect. Lacking in force and adequacy. (The effects are there, just not in the desired amounts)
Useless- of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile. (There is no effect. No difference is made by the subject)
See the difference between the two now?
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Perhaps, but once again you are taking an assumption on his meaning based on "reading between the lines." If you wish to find out if he thought the set as useless, then ask him for clarification on whether or not he does feel the set useless. If he answers positively to that, then you can make such a claim. Otherwise, you're reading into a conclusion that is not presented.
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There are times when you have to read between the lines in order to understand what the writer of the document is trying to tell you. And that is because the writer maybe vague in telling you what he really means. More so with legal papers.
The OP has a hatred for DA and his guide is here to cause players to never chose DA. Answer this question honestly, would you tell a player to never chose a set if it is useful? Also answer this honestly, even though the OP will try to keep players from chosing DA when someone else using numbers to show him he is wrong he backs down (does a 180), and still tries to convince the readers to never take it. Why does he do this?
IMHO it is illogical to tell a player never to use a set that is useful. Also you did not address my other two points in your reply to me. Is his guide really trying to get the readers to only play the FoTM's or the min/max builds. I know that DA may not be a FoTM.
Based on the evidence presented here by the other posters clearly show that DA is not as bad as the OP is trying to convince us it is. DA is not useless like the OP seems to be saying by the title of his guide. Is DA the bottom of the barrel as far as brute secondaries, maybe but the same could be said about any other set that is the bottom of the barrel as far as that AT goes. I still say that it is a good powerset that takes skill to play. It is not a fire and forget set. It is a set with a mixed bag of defense/damage resist/and utilities. It is a set IMHO that takes a player that knows this game to get the best results.
Finally let's say that there is a fire. A reporter writes a story that is published in the newspaper in it he says that it was a big fire. Let's also say that one of the firemen writes a story that calles the fire a four alarm fire and it is published in a different newspaper. Who is right, is the reporter or the firefighter? Actually both are right because they are writing according to their knowledge of the subject.
I am using the above as an example of the fact that there are many ways of saying the same thing.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
If his guide was to instruct people to play only FotM builds, then he would have stated it as such. He doesn't say to stay away from other secondaries that are considered lacking, such as /EA, just that /DA is not an optimal set for a brute. Again, this is also brought up in points that seem to be ignored such as the increased amount of endurance usage and to-hit debuffs effects on the primary survival tool for the set.
I can understand the idea of subtext in written form, but what you're looking for isn't there. Unless, of course, you are using a different definition of useless than myself. In which case, this is more of a failure to communicate.
To use your fire analogy. If said fireman called the fire a "big fire," then the local newspaper prints that he said it was an "unstoppable inferno," the paper would be incorrect. He did not say it was unstoppable, or an inferno. Just that it was a big fire. In your example, you have two different sources saying the same thing, not one source claiming the other source said something they didn't in a different way.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Ineffective- Not producing desired effect. Lacking in force and adequacy. (The effects are there, just not in the desired amounts)
Useless- of no use; not serving the purpose or any purpose; unavailing or futile. (There is no effect. No difference is made by the subject)
See the difference between the two now?
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If you are attempting to split the hair between a powerset that produces no effect of any value, and one that literally produces no effect, you're going to be talking to yourself. That's a complete waste of my time.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
That's the thing though, by one definition, there is value to it. Just that the value is not equal to the other sets. The desired effect being that it should be equal, but isn't according to the OP. The other is that there is no value to the set at all.
I seriously doubt the OP believes that /DA is useless, but that for all its use, there are other sets that could do a better job.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I've seen a dark armor do some nice things, which is the main reason I chose a dark/dark for my next brute. I like the fear. I think you just have issues. 
I assume that's a QR, since I don't have any particular issues with /DA one way or the other.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Perhaps, but once again you are taking an assumption on his meaning based on "reading between the lines." If you wish to find out if he thought the set as useless, then ask him for clarification on whether or not he does feel the set useless. If he answers positively to that, then you can make such a claim. Otherwise, you're reading into a conclusion that is not presented.
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I don't need to ask him that. The very fact that so many people have, in fact, read it between the lines is sufficent to the point.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I seriously doubt the OP believes that /DA is useless, but that for all its use, there are other sets that could do a better job.
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Then by your claim the OP has made very unreasonable assertions in his "guide", because a reasonable person would not advise people to "never" play something that was not so much less useful than the alternatives that it wouldn't be considered to be of vanishingly small use.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just as a side note that I believe is worth mentioning.
That was the first time I ever tried to handle increased spawns while solo.
Warhulks are also harder than average bosses, a Fake Nemesis would not have caused near that trouble (or most other boss types for that matter), the reason for this is that it takes a base mag of 6 to stun a Warhulk where normal bosses take only a 4. May not seem like much, but its a big difference.
I had started with just 2 and then added one and then one again, just to see. As for 4 man spawns being my limit? I doubt it, I want to try higher, just haven't had a chance yet.
Last thing to note, the spawns in that mission are rather odd in compostion compared to normal spawns.
I probably won't get a chance to try 5+ man spawns until this weekend, but will let you know how it turns out.