Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 18:02 in Player Guides
I think i have the same mind set as Renascor...
Should I even bother? Would numbers and datamining be enough to counter blatant opinion based on experience that could have been skewed in the first place? Would it even be worth the effort?
Probably not. I shall ponder.
I would say the given numbers and experience of one opinion would be greater than just the experiences of another. So far, I'm seeing quite a few numbers and experiences from one side, but not from another.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
If you haven't seen the numbers to support dark armor as being the most survivable armor set in the game, just look at any of Arcanaville's posts on immortality lines and defense.
I've also extensively datamined dark armor and have seen that it surpasses Stone armor for survivability before you even factor in the controls from OG and Cloak of fear. AV's conclusions also supported this.
How Dark went from the premiere armor set for those that live for relentless level missions, to the worst set for a brute to take is beyond me.
It's an ignorant trend.
I guess I'll start up Wordpad...
I have indeed read Arcana's report on scrapper secondaries and their survivability. However, her reports tend to use optimum (even in best/worst case scenarios) usage of a set. In practical application, this is rarely the case. Not to mention there is a good bit of difference between Brutes and Scrappers as far as optimum mitigation through the use of Fury and an active offense vs. controls built into the set. This is also not including endurance usage with attack chains, which is DA's biggest problem area.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
If you haven't seen the numbers to support dark armor as being the most survivable armor set in the game, just look at any of Arcanaville's posts on immortality lines and defense.
I've also extensively datamined dark armor and have seen that it surpasses Stone armor for survivability before you even factor in the controls from OG and Cloak of fear. AV's conclusions also supported this.
How Dark went from the premiere armor set for those that live for relentless level missions, to the worst set for a brute to take is beyond me.
It's an ignorant trend.
I guess I'll start up Wordpad...
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
The OP is full of lose.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
So based on that information, are you supporting the proposition that Dark Armor should not be taken as a Brute, because of the slight initial delay in building fury due to control powers?
Attack chains shouldn't even be used with a Brute. The dynamic ability to use fury pretty much throws out the idea of attack chains being a quotient for endurance usage or damage to any reliable degree. If anything, the addition to IOs to the game drastically mitigate concerns about endurance use, especially where dark armor is concerned because Dark Armor also has the most toggles to run, which would hurt it if not for the fact that only it's damage aura and cloak of fear draw constant signifigant Endurance, and these are further mitigated by the prevalence of End Recovery bonuses and their availability in the very same toggles that dark possesses.
On my stone/dark brute, I have virtually eliminated all worries about endurance and have a higher recovery rate through IOs than a /EA brute in Overload: 4.01 per second.
Again, my opinion, is that /dark is not for the average player. /Dark armor better serves those players who play at higher difficulties, have experience with numbers (how to do mathz), and those players who are able to manage several tasks at once.
/Dark Armor played well will equal or exceed the performance metrics of any other power-set, brute or not, in both offensive and defensive categories. It is not the hamstring of fury that it is made out to be.
The numbers don't support it. Opinions are just that, unsupported, and thusly inconclusive, both for and against, but they still remain arguable, but only in so much as they can't be presupposed to universally apply in all situations, which is exactly the tone that the author of this post takes.
His opinion and supporting arguments assumes that player skill makes no difference in the effectiveness of a power-set, well, that and several other assumptions, but that one being the most flawed. The entire argument has to made from the position of ommission of a very influential truth. His argument might be credible if you ignored the glaringly obvious. Performance in this game varies wildly between players, and it isn't because we are playing different builds or sets, thought those do vary to an extent. The most variable factor in determining the effectiveness of a build or power-set in any situation still remains player skill. For Dark Armor, this is probably even more important in my opinion than any other set because of the necessity to constantly assess your defensive situation and select the best tactics.
However, assuming all those factors, this is not the case in this thread, and surely does not meet the general level of informative material that should be in the player guide section. It's both disingenuous, and far too speculative to be of use to anyone other than an editorial about one person's experience. In fact, it might do more to harm the general eduaction levels of those that read it as uncontested fact.
Until I see some damage output numbers from from the players claiming that dark's control toggles hurt their fury significantly enough to justify their wild accusations that it would preclude not even considering the power-set, and damage output i'll add, it will remain an 'old wives tail, and unsupported opinion.
Numbers forthcoming.
[ QUOTE ]
*** You are ignoring this user ***
[/ QUOTE ]
Yay!
I love my SS/Dark. He was my first 50 villain way back when. Stomping EB's on his own without an issue. Went with SJ and dropped Acrobatics as soon as IO's came out. Nice big heal, average resistances to everything and then some, stealth.
Bah. Not worth arguing the point with "*** You are ignoring this user ***"
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
You realize you just put someone on ignore because they made a completely legit argument concerning this power set, right?
[ QUOTE ]
However, assuming all those factors, this is not the case in this thread, and surely does not meet the general level of informative material that should be in the player guide section. It's both disingenuous, and far too speculative to be of use to anyone other than an editorial about one person's experience. In fact, it might do more to harm the general eduaction levels of those that read it as uncontested fact.
[/ QUOTE ]
Totally agreed. This was really the point of all my blabbering (I hope it made sense, I'm trying to finish a 30-page term paper as we speak, so my mind is a bit mushy at the moment). You do it much more eloquently than I could.
I would like to see the numbers showing that CoF and OG don't hurt fury generation. I honestly don't have the time or the know-how to do so.
Mathematically examining the generation of fury is not the simple algebraic equation most use to define it(+X per attack, +Y per enemy attack, -Z per 2 seconds).
it is actually a Limit (as defined in the calculus) because of the increased and constant decay rate. There is a point where you have reached the practical 'limit' of fury.
The hindering fury argument would also be much stronger if fury had no cap or Limit based growth, but since both do apply the effect would be noticable but negligible.
I think the main problem with people building fury with OG or CoF running is not in the armor set, but in the offensive set and playstyle.
As for the actual mathematics... Sorry, but I don't have enough free time to actually figure it out at the moment.
It's gotta be a joke post. Dark Armor is the most survivable secondary outside of Stone Armor's Granite power. And instead of Dark you recommend...Electric? LOL
Yeah, take Aid Self. You're gonna need it. And hope you're not DoTed.
And Aid Self being better than Dark Regen? LOL No, guess again. The cake is a lie. Caltrops alone is enough to stop AS the majority of the time. And in PvE where you get multiple DoTs applied? Forget it, Aid Self is worthless for those situations. I know, I use it on Energy Aura all the time. DR is far, far superior.
People give Electric way more credit than it deserves. And what's telling is it's always with the caveat "if you take Aid Self" LOL Aid Self, LOL Electric Armor.
Electric is only superior to Energy Aura. Everything else beats it for survivability.
[ QUOTE ]
How Dark went from the premiere armor set for those that live for relentless level missions, to the worst set for a brute to take is beyond me.
It's an ignorant trend.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
I still don't think the OP is being serious. But on the off chance he is, yeah, there's no argument at all that Dark isn't superior for survivability. Electric has a big fan club. Mostly because it gives you some nice tools for the late game (Endurance Drain protection--oops Dark has it too; and Psi protection--oops again, Dark has it too; slow protection--ok, Electric 1 out of 3 isn't exactly a stellar record).
That Electric Armor is the best Brute Secondary has become conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom is oftentimes wrong.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
[ QUOTE ]
I still don't think the OP is being serious.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im being completely serious. Im hearing a lot of "OMG UR POST IS WRONG" but nothing disputing the actual numbers or observations in the guide.
Fury generation is caused by two conditions. One is attacking, the other is being attacked.
If you're surrounded by five enemies, you attack one, the five attack you, that's Six times Fury is generated.
If you're surrounded by five enemies, and using Cloak of Fear you fear all five, and attack one, the one attacks you, the other four quiver, that's two times fury is being generated.
If you're surrounded by five enemies, and you use oppressive gloom to stun those five enemies, and attack one, that's 1 time Fury is generated.
And that alone is only a small part of why Dark Armor is an inferior brute set. This isn't as large an issue on Scrappers, because A. Scrappers aren't competing with tanker armor sets in their AT, and B. Scrappers don't rely on fury for damage.
I'll address other issues brought up with the guide at a later point, posting time is limited right now.
I'm disputing your numbers and your observations.
And Ur wrong!
And my posting time is limited also, but, i've got about two pages worth of numbers from hero stats so far.
I'm shooting for 6 hours.
the respec SF i just ran against the +3 DE should give real good results too. Pretty much pegged fury the entire time. and that was running OG the entirety also.
[ QUOTE ]
That Electric Armor is the best Brute Secondary has become conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom is oftentimes wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kinda like the earth being flat, or the sun revolving around the earth, or spontaneous generation, and who could forget the memorable, and highly believable, Moon being made of cheese!
Also, for the record, Fury, and its calculations, aren't as simple as 1+1=2...
I rather lawl'd when I read that.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That Electric Armor is the best Brute Secondary has become conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom is oftentimes wrong.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kinda like the earth being flat, or the sun revolving around the earth, or spontaneous generation, and who could forget the memorable, and highly believable, Moon being made of cheese!
Also, for the record, Fury, and its calculations, aren't as simple as 1+1=2...
I rather lawl'd when I read that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I oversimplified.
There's no way you're going to prove that fury gain is increased by having enemies attack you less, unless you go to absurd situations where they break your stat protection normally, reducing your own attacking output.
Also, while you're putting hard effort into proving how wrong the guide is, you're also going to rerun this same respec with the same exact team, providing the same buffing, using a different brute with the same primary, but a different secondary, to show Dark truly does outperform that set in an equal enviroment, right?
[ QUOTE ]
You realize you just put someone on ignore because they made a completely legit argument concerning this power set, right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Watch out, you'll get ignored too D:
Here you come with a stupid name like Fixer - brutalkillz_
/DA brutes add much to a team as Petless MMs
You provided a long guide consisting of some rather ridiculous claimes about how DA is crippled by its weak energy resists and what a weak power Dark Regen is (lol). You didn't make a post saying DA is bad for fury generation, you claimed it was a bad set all around.
That thesis is provably false. It's been proven by people who applied much better analysis, gave much better information and actually applied both real play and numerical simulation to the effort.
In contrast your post is rife with unsubstantiated opinion, such as the wildly innacurate claim that Dark Regen's basic function relegates you to tanking minions and LTs.
I will grant only your points about not being able to tank AVs (a problem DA shares with FA) and fury generation, and the fury point only if you run around with your mez toggles on full-time (which is what most people would do). The rest of your analysis of the actual survivability of DA is bunk.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
You provided a long guide consisting of some rather ridiculous claimes about how DA is crippled by its weak energy resists and what a weak power Dark Regen is (lol). You didn't make a post saying DA is bad for fury generation, you claimed it was a bad set all around.
That thesis is provably false. It's been proven by people who applied much better analysis, gave much better information and actually applied both real play and numerical simulation to the effort.
[/ QUOTE ]
I thought I made it quite clear that Dark Regeneration was -THE- power to the set. However, it's also got several more achilles heels than other self-heal powers available to Brutes, due to it's reliance on using multiple targets, the effects of using it on Enemies with a high defense rate, and its effectiveness when suferring To Hit Debuffs.
I also posted a lot more behind the point of Dark being a weak Brute secondary than it's energy resist numbers, but I somehow doubt you bothered to read the whole thing. No surprise.
And thanks for disputing my "real play" and implying I didn't use any sort of numbers to draw the conclusion. It's appreciated.
First of all IOs. If you want to compare recovery rates with IOs, I bet I can out do your endurance recovery rate on an anything/elec build than you can on an anything/dark. If you're going to compare the sets, you need an equal playing field. I didn't mention anything Dark could do with IOs, and I didn't mention anything any -other- set can do with IOs as well.
Second.
[ QUOTE ]
His opinion and supporting arguments assumes that player skill makes no difference in the effectiveness of a power-set, well, that and several other assumptions, but that one being the most flawed. The entire argument has to made from the position of ommission of a very influential truth. His argument might be credible if you ignored the glaringly obvious. Performance in this game varies wildly between players, and it isn't because we are playing different builds or sets, thought those do vary to an extent. The most variable factor in determining the effectiveness of a build or power-set in any situation still remains player skill. For Dark Armor, this is probably even more important in my opinion than any other set because of the necessity to constantly assess your defensive situation and select the best tactics.
[/ QUOTE ]
But you can't put a number on player skill. One person's skill with Dark Armor won't neccessarily match their own skill with other sets. Dark Armor -does- perform better with practice, but then, any set does. Skill isnt the sort of thing that you can say "well, using X amount of Skill, a Dark Armor player will perform an Elec Armor using X amount of skill, with X being equal." I have the opinion that if such a situation existed, the Electric Brute would completely outclass the Dark Brute, due to the fact Dark sacrafices peak performance values to keep a subpar across the board performance level instead.
The point of the guide was to point out to perspective Dark Armor players that you're giving up a LOT to be able to perform at a consistent level to all types of "normal spawn" type situations. When you toss AVs/EBs or anything that can impair Dark Regeneration ((AVs/EBs normally accomplish this by nature of being the last thing standing)) such as recharge debuff, endurance drain, high defense ((IE, anything multiple levels higher)), or to hit debuffs, Dark Armor is going to wind up eating floor.
Arcanavilles survival guide for Scrappers does show Dark Armor in a favorable light, but there are two issues.
First, as mentioned elsewhere, it tends to stick to "perfect situations" where everything performs at it's peak. A single solid to-hit debuff, in practice, will send Dark Armor into desperation, as it's "utility" tools, CoF, OG, and of course, the crutch of the Set, Dark Regeneration rely on hitting targets to work. Or, situations dealing with higher con enemies, that get defense bonuses due to level range.
Second, it only compares Scrapper sets. Scrappers and Brutes only share two secondary sets, that are covered in the guide I've read of Arcana's. ((I don't think Willpower has been analyzed yet, unless its in a different guide than the one I located in this forum.))
Plus, Ill be honest. Drawn out numeric calculations and simulations rarely hold up to real world practice. The -only- two situations I've ever seen Dark Armor outperform other brute secondaries in practice have been the Leviathan and Numina fights. The other sets have no issues dealing with Dark Armor's specialty, large mobs of normal sized, even to +2 level spawn, and thus, all it's overperformance there is essentially worthless.
Also, to the casual player, Dark Armor will always be worse because if a situation arises where other sets ((aside from Fire Armor, and possibly Willpower)) would see problems, they have the potential to overperform, long enough to either cover the retreat of a team, or, to retreat themselves. When Dark Armor is thrown into a bad situation, it's performance doesn't have the capability, in practice, to increase. It simply chokes and dies.
[ QUOTE ]
There's no way you're going to prove that fury gain is increased by having enemies attack you less, unless you go to absurd situations where they break your stat protection normally, reducing your own attacking output.
[/ QUOTE ]
Haetron, you have the worst case of leaping to conclusions I have ever seen...
First, we are not saying that having OG, or CoF running increases fury generation, sorry, you are the only one saying that. We are actually saying that 'Yes, the mezzing toggles do cause fury building to be slower, BUT the effective reduction in fury generation is minor.' Huge difference in meaning.
Using your overly simplified example is erronous in the extreme, sort of like most of your original guide. the reason being is that while the majority of your facts, and only your facts are correct, they are also incomplete, and therefore your conclusions derived from those facts are wrong.
I will use your little fury building mechanic to demonstrate this fact:
Subject:
Umbra Tenebrae, my level 50 Energy Melee/Dark Armor Brute.
Initial Data:
Powers from Dark Armor: All except Cloak of Fear (Fear effects do not stack well with Disorient effects since disorient takes precedence)
Powers from Energy Melee: All except Taunt
Power Pools:
Speed: Hasten + Super Speed
Leaping: Combat Jumping
Fitness: All
Patron: Web Envolope
Lets assume 6 man spawn of Nemesis, 1 LT and 5 minions(All Dragoons since Jaegers have some stun protection), (this is what I see in my relentless 'Battle for Television' mission with 3 characters[all are me], so only my EM/DA is actually engaging, the other two wait at the entrance). Next assumption, the spawn is optimally arranged to maximize the aura's effect.
Going in I run Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Oppressive Gloom, and Death Shroud. Have no external buffs.
I am not running Cloak of darkness, so they see me coming and will alpha strike me. My opening move is to jump into the middle of the spanw and use Whirling Hands. After the exchange, the 5 minions are stunned because of OG, lets say I got lucky and the LT is also stunned due to Whirling hands 30% stun mag 2 chance landing stacked with OG. So now the entire spawn is not retaliating for at least 11.9 seconds (I have 2 acc/mez Hamis in OG), reduced by whatever reduction +2 causes to the scaling.
Ok, so here I am in the middle of a spawn, suffered a 6 man alpha which built a small amount of fury, and landed one attack to generate a small amount also. Whats Next?
Well since I want to generate fury, I begin Firing off Barrage, Energy Punch and Bone Smasher in rapid succession, these are all quick animating, quick recharging attacks, and will therefore help me generate fury. I do NOT use Stun or Total Focus since both are long animating attacks and would therefore impede my fury generation. I will also use Whirling hands when it is available and if I have multiple enemies still around me.
Once fury is built I will begin to use Total focus (sparingly, this attack is mediocre in my opinion due to its long animation time) and Energy Transfer (I use this power very often).
I consider fury to be built to an acceptable level when it reaches the 70 - 80 percent range, because in that range it is begining to plateau. This happens easily within the first spawn of the mission, and keeping with brute doctrine, I then move as quickly as possible from one spawn to the next.
Ok, So the question is, If I finish the first spawn with near the practical limit of fury, and you on a non dark armor brute also finish the first spawn with the same level of fury (can't really be higher due to the increasing decay rate of fury) but it took me about, and I will be generous towards you here, 10 seconds longer to get there, how much does that really put you ahead. Since from here on out we will both be maintaining high levels of fury, the generation bonus you essentialy have at low levels of fury doesn't really come into play. And I probably rest and stop as often as you do, in other words, I don't. So really, you have 10 seconds on me... 10 whole seconds...
To actually prove this mathematically, I would need the equations for fury growth and decay (which I don't think anyone besides a Dev knows the decay one)...
Maybe a video? I could record me running the mission I described, would that be informative to you? If you are interested, let me know and I will make one or two up and let you see them.
As for right now, I am going to play Umbra for a bit, later
[ QUOTE ]
I also posted a lot more behind the point of Dark being a weak Brute secondary than it's energy resist numbers, but I somehow doubt you bothered to read the whole thing. No surprise.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ad homenim does nothing for your credability. You have no idea what I read or did not and would be better not to draw conclusions on it. I could have replied with a point-by-point deconstruction of your "guide". Instead I pointed out some glaring points highlighting innacuracies.
[ QUOTE ]
And thanks for disputing my "real play" and implying I didn't use any sort of numbers to draw the conclusion. It's appreciated.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please quote where I claimed you did not have "real play". I claimed that others applied, and I quote, "both real play and numerical simulation". Please quote where you applied numerical simulation. You provided numbers and discussed them. That's certainly not the same thing as the depth of numerical analysis and actual simulation that people like Arcanaville have done, and notably they came to rather different conclusions than you have. I realize you touched on this in your post, but you conclude that the Arcanaville's conclusions are incorrect because she analyzed ideal situations. I think that's inaccurate - more than just ideal situations were analyzed.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...f?t=1203071552
Liberty
My 50s:
Hero: Armor Assassin (scrapper), Cross Dresser (scrapper), Surly Seaman (blaster), Defensive End (Tank), Rad Rhino (Cont)
Villain: Beast Infection (Corr), Sweet Zombie Jesus (MM), Milk Weasel (Stalker), Orgullo (MM), Agent Eris (Crab)
[ QUOTE ]
If you, after reading the guide, still have a desire to play Dark Armor, please post any questions and I will try to convince you why this is a bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a great guide
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04