KaosQ

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I am not going to argue the view points expressed here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as am I. However there is a difference between facts and facts laced with opinions. Generally any fact can be used by anyone to support or refute a statement. This guide is no different in my opinion. If facts were stated without opinions then that would leave it to the reader to generate their own opinions of what they perceive the facts are. However this guide was laced with opinions which now sets up 3 camps of posts. Those that support, those that oppose and those that are on the fence.

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Don't these same 3 camps generally form about almost all power sets anyway? Granted, the fact I didn't act completely unbiased and detached from my guide may have made it more public on this post. But it's not like every guide that is posted is unbiased. Its just that if something shows bias in a favorable manner, less people are going to discuss it, because the people that don't like the subject of the guide probably won't bother even reading it. Negative opinions of anything that isn't inherently a negative itself tend to draw huge backlash.

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Personally I do not like the opinions in the guide however I can see how they are generated and at times have come to similar conclusions in my own time of analyzing Dark Armor. However those early conclusions were not accounting for DA's strengths. Which for a Melee AT are somewhat unique. While most Brute sets have one or two additional forms of Damage Mitigation besides Resistance and or Defense, Dark Armor has 5.

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Thanks for this input, but I think here, your own opinions are showing, as you don't mentions several aspects that some sets bring to the table. I mean, if you're going to consider Death Shroud and Dark Regeneration's damage as mitigation, ((And to be fair, you did point out Elec's as well)), and the 5%ToHit Debuff on CoF, you need to point out all of the strengths of each set.

Additions are in the below quote block, in bold Italic text.

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Let’s lay out the examples.

Electric Armor
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Damage
+Speed
+Recharge
Slow Resistance
Endurance Drain Resistance
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases

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Energy Aura
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Endurance Management
Passive Resists
Defense Debuff Resistance
Temporary HP and Heavy Defense Increase

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Fiery Aura
Resistance
Heal
Endurance Drain
Damage
Passive Resistance

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Stone Armor
Resistance
Defense
Regeneration
Heal
Damage
+40 Percent Max HP
Passive Resistance
Ability to trade offensive output for sustained, heavier Defense and Resistance increase

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WillPower
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Management
Regeneration
+20 Percent Max HP
Passve Resistance.
ToHit Debuff
Temporary Resistance moderate resistance increases available after fixed intervals.

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Invuln
Resistance
Defense
Heal
Passive Resistances.
Passive Defense.
+40% Max HP
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases
ToHit Buffs

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Dark Armor
Resistance
Defense
Stun
Fear
Heal
To Hit - Debuff
Damage
Endurance Drain Resist

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And there's still probably some stuff that's been forgotten. Im sure someone will point out I didn't include Dark Armor's +Perception and Stealth, but I didn't point out other sets examples of that either. I feel passives warrant a seperate mention as they do come of use, even if players tend to overlook them. There's values to the varying types of resistance and defense the game provides, that are unique of each other. Toggles provide moderate protection when you're not held/stunned for a continuing endurance cost. Passives provide lesser protection that is permanently active, and costs no endurance to use. "God Modes" provide brief exceptional protection with some form of cost on the end of the power. To lump them all together isn't really fair, as some sets provide one type, ((Dark Armor)) some provide two types, ((Fire Armor)) and some provide 3 types. ((Invulnerability.))

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Dark Armor has 5 forms of additional damage mitigation. Considering these additional forms is why DA does not have the Strait up Resistance or Defense that other sets have. However that does not make DA easier to play. Believe it or not in my opinion DA is what I consider an Intelligence set. Something that requires multitasking and critical thinking. The prime example is not running every toggle every time. Each situation has different ways that it can be handled. The best way to build fury is to run into a large group without OG or CoF running, hit Dark Regen and once you are close to 75% Fury turn on OG and go to work. Playing aggressive like any other Brute will keep the fury up. With the controls going you take 75% of the spawns out of the fight. I do not know any other set that can do that being a Melee AT.

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The problem here, is that reward and extra effort worth the reward? That's going to be an opinion more than anything. The time spent making sure everything is mitigated properly on one brute is time other secondaries can focus towards killing the spawn faster, as some of their defenses are not as situational, and also not as endurance usage heavy. This is not to say other sets do not have situational mitigation, that's obviously not the case.

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Now that fact that I consider DA an intelligence set does not mean I am trying to insult anyone however its all about how each person wants to play. DA takes time and effort to understand and allot of trial and error however once mastered it is in my opinion one of the best experiences anyone can have playing COV.

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There's no insult taken by that statement. Even in my OP, I stated that Dark Armor is the "Challenge" set. Dumb players need not apply. ((oh boy, someone's going to lynch me for that now)) After playing it and "mastering" it, ((Who's to say I did. I never bothered with IOs, which obviously improve some of the weaknesses of the set.)) I walked away with the opinion the reward isn't worth the effort.

I felt, ((Yes, more personal opinion here, admittedly))

<ul type="square">[*]I had leveled a set that was far too reliant on one power for survival.[*]That the set would never be able to "Self Exceed". This is the temporary ability to heavily increase your mitigation beyond the standard methods of the set, without outside buffs.[*]Would never be sought after for any specific reason other than team filler. ((Granted, this isn't unique to Dark.))[*]Was designed with full knowledge it would occaisonally "fail", therefore, had a self ress.[*]Would never perform well in PVP due to it's main strengths being negated by player movement, and it's weaknesses to common damage types.[/list]

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One point I can also make for DA is the primary pairings. Some Primaries mesh well with DA and can generate a different experience then what someone else may have. From my experience while Stone Melee is a serious endurance issue the mitigation it offers in conjunction with DA can not be matched period. OG+Fault = Perma Stunned Mobs. 100% Mitigation. That’s about as good as it gets.

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Every Secondary seems to have a primary it meshes with, sometimes it's not obvious. The mitigation provided by primaries should not overlooked by any serious player, and Stone Melee is one of those sets that excels with this. I personally chose Energy Melee for concept ((Wanted a Positive/Negative energy theme)) but -thought- the stun stacking with Oppressive Gloom would pay off. Does it? Yes. Not as much as I'd like, personally, but I can't deny that I've occaisonally used it to my advantage.


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In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone else’s.


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Well said. I see lots of guides that try to encourage players to choose a set, but I could not, in my own "good conscience" write such a guide. I have had several players IG ask my opinion of the set, and some have went ahead, ignored advice, played it and loved it anyway. Others have said "Why didn't I listen to you in the first place." And others have said "That makes sense, maybe I shouldn't play it." I didn't want to write a glowing endorsement of the set, and then have to field the same complaints I personally have with the set and pretend they don't exist. That, is what would be "dishonest". ((No offense to you, it's something I've had tossed at me several times in the thread.))

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Very well said, this is really what I wanted you to say in your OP. It is opinion and others do well with it even if it's hard. Kudos, this is a great post and it would have probably saved us all a lot of trouble if you had said it from the start and just called the guide something different.

Great guide, still trying to do all of these on my main badger.

Great guide, it was very helpful for slotting my alts.

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What exactly is this a guide to again?

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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?

I mean, hey, thanks for the bumps to keeping it up front, but the more appropriate action if the guide just offends your sensibilities so horribly, don't post, and just PM a mod and explain why you -dont- think it belongs here?

All of the "zomg ur wrong but I cant really say why so [censored]" replies aren't really helping DAs case.

Gilfred, haven't ignored your post, Ill reply later today when I have access to powerset numbers and such again.

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I think you are wrong, just like you think you are right. I'm not trying to prove you wrong. The whole point of my posts was to convey that I have FUN playing my /DA brutes and that many others do too and I, personally, enjoy playing sets I find fun (that's sort of the point of a GAME, everyone pays their $15 a month though). So what if it's more a challenge? Guess what? I don't feel like playing a fire/psi like everyone else seems to want to right now.

Dark Armor may not be for everyone but I enjoy playing the set. I just commented to convey my personal experiences with the set.

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However, assuming all those factors, this is not the case in this thread, and surely does not meet the general level of informative material that should be in the player guide section. It's both disingenuous, and far too speculative to be of use to anyone other than an editorial about one person's experience. In fact, it might do more to harm the general eduaction levels of those that read it as uncontested fact.

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Totally agreed. This was really the point of all my blabbering (I hope it made sense, I'm trying to finish a 30-page term paper as we speak, so my mind is a bit mushy at the moment). You do it much more eloquently than I could.

I would like to see the numbers showing that CoF and OG don't hurt fury generation. I honestly don't have the time or the know-how to do so.

issues with damage mitigation aren't really the issue I don't think. DA has a great, albeit, expensive self heal, 2 damage mitigation toggles and resistances on par or marginally lower with most sets (except for fire in FA, nrgy in elec) and exceeding them in Negative (which you seem to leave out) and Psionic. I agree that elec being able to cap it's nrgy res (even before godmode) makes it the best primary, because 90% res to anything is awesome and nrgy is very common. Another sets strength doesn't make DA bad or not worth playing or unplayable.

And yes, corruptors make everything better. And EB's are meant to be taken on on teams almost as much as AVs are. I like teaming on all of my toons (even my stalkers and scrappers). And DA is better on teams, and most brutes are. If things are attacking they're attacking you, if they aren't attacking they aren't attacking anyone as DA. Fury? Teams can make fury hard to get sometimes (especially some PuGs, 6 brutes? no thanks). Let them to the damage then.

The soloing AVs thing wasn't really aimed at you, I shouldn't have couched it in those terms. It's more a problem I see on the brute boards (and the CoX boards more generally). Some people seem to think that a build not being able to take on AVs makes that build bad. It's just something that annoys me in general. AVs are for teams, the devs have said it again and again. EBs are easier on teams, period. Soloing them is nice, and if I want to I can as my DA brutes (half a tray of inspirations maybe but take them nonetheless, this even applies to my elec/dark, which I was afraid I would have trouble with but they haven't really bugged me).

Also, thanks for ignoring my previous post. If it was because I was being a [censored], well, kudos to you. If you just accidentally skipped it, well, it's there. You might like to read it.

Also, for the record, why are you so concerned about soloing AVs? Teaming with a /thermal, almost any brute can duo AVs and any halfway decent team can take an AV. Soloing though? AVs aren't meant to be soloed, they are meant to be hard, and they are meant to be done on teams (even EBs for the matter, it's why your contacts always tell you to get a team for difficult missions). So yeah, if you're expecting to pawn every AV in the game by yourself, then play a different set. Play one of... wait... how many builds can actually solo AVs as it is? Not that many.

Being able to solo EBs and AVs is hardly a good measure of a brute secondary. That's about the only thing /dark can't do...

Just a few points:

If you want to talk about synergy between sets, EM has great synergy. The generally agreed upon worst move in Energy melee: whirling hands, becomes extremely helpful when you get OG. It's two mag 2 stuns on the most of the spawn (I think WH has a max of 10 targets). Is WH crap as an AoE? Yes, it is. Is it useful mitigation for an EM/DA brute: yes, yes it is. Is it useful for, oh, any other secondary: no, it is (arguably) the most skippable power in set. Dark melee does too, it has a cheap self heal, an end heal, another fear, and it is really good at building fury on its own (ie without needing to get hit). Also, do you think that SS and SM are *teh gimp* because their Tier 9s provide mitigation? Does it make EM gimp because it disorients? Obviously disorient is the worst possible thing for a brute to *evar* have. Knockdown must suck too.

You also argue that dark is locked into CJ, SJ, and acro. First, there are other sets that are just as locked into it (plenty of /elecs decide they need acro, fire does, energy does). Second, there are cheap IOs that can be slotted for good knockback protection, eliminating the need for acro.

Finally, I like stone armor. You need to play it before you comment on it. Stone armor can tank. BRUTES ARE NOT TANKERS. You basically don't do damage in granite. You are locked into a travel power (you have to get teleport to be able to move at all, fly and super jump don't work in granite). I would say dark is harder to play than stone but has far more survivability before 38.

I'm not TRYING to disprove your argument at all. I certainly wasn't claiming that I had statistics or anything of the sort. I was providing the contradictory opinion that LOTS of people like dark armor and have a lot of fun playing. Your post isn't gospel, people are allowed to disagree and decide for themselves. Many people think, however wrongly you may think they are thinking, that dark has one of the better PvE survivabilitiy's of any brute secondary. YOU have YOUR opinion, I have MINE. I felt it was necessary to contribute my point of view on the subject so people were not mislead. By your accounts, I shouldn't be playing CoV anymore and I should want to become an hero after playing as many /da brutes as I have. By my account, I enjoy playing /DA and would encourage people to find sets that they like and that work for them. Just because you don't like /DA doesn't mean that other won't enjoy it and it certainly doesn't mean that I am *teh gimp*.

Why the hate? I really don't get it. If you don't like a set -- that's one thing. Saying no one should try to play it? Hardly.

I love my /DA. Is it end heavy? Yes. Does it have end problems? See below, but not as much as many of my other characters, including other brutes. Also, are you not running OG or CoF. Both provide excellent mitigation and neither one hinders building fury (why people seem think/assume this I don't know, I have never had problems with fury on my brute). CoF was too expensive for my tastes so I dropped it when OG came up at 35. I may pick up tough but I have not really found the need for it (the only time I have a problem with smashing is carnies because strongmen hit really hard (then again, they hit everyone hard)).

Also, just going off base numbers, I suppose /DA looks like crap. Proper slotting makes everything better. If you don't spend the slots, then no set is going to be good. Does dark regen NEED five or six slots? Yes, yes it does. With 2 acc, 2 end redux, 2 rech it is up as often as I need it, it hits, and it does not destroy my endurance. Do I have two end redux in each of my shields? Yeah, I do. Do I have endurance problems, NOT AT ALL. I can attack constantly and I only ever have problems fighting Mu, only /elecs can say they don't have that problem.

I don't mind the self rez, it's not great. I don't really care about god mode, I'll be perfectly honest. It's a mag 30 stun, I've seen it stun AVs before. It gives you enough time to click your shields back on and can be enough to give your team a breather/get the upper hand. That said, I'll probably drop it because I almost NEVER use it.

All that said, not many brute secondary sets really bloom until much later. /elec early? Not a big fan. After power sink -- absolutely wonderful. Stone? Granite armor isn't until 38. Fire? Burn and Fiery embrace are 28 and 35 and burn really takes off when you get the patron immob. WP I haven't played enough to really tell you, I've enojyed what I've seen early and I can't wait for QR+Stamina. EA? I couldn't stand it personally but others disagree and I've seen some /ea brutes do some amazing things. Same goes for invul (less so on the amazing things but you don't see too many of those these days).

Paired with the right primary (read:almost any) /DA is amazing. My elec/dark is a ton of fun, my em/dark was my first 50 (WH and OG stuns, well, a lot), my dark/dark didn't care if they weren't attacking since shadow punch and smite cycle like no one's business (endless attack chain before level 10? yes please). People even make the unholy end sucking beast that is stone/dark work (not recommended for beginners). SS is pretty much always awesome. DB I haven't played with enough to say.

That said, good slotting and halfway decent planning can make any build good or even great. I love dark armor for brutes, as do many others. I have no problems gaining fury (there was a whole discussion the other day about this) and I don't die unless my team royal screws the pooch and we have three or four spawns on us.