Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.

Haetron · 02-12-2008 06:02 PM

This is, point blank, a power by power breakdown of the Dark Armor secondary for brutes, in comparison to the majority of other brute set. The goal is to prevent anyone from ever considering playing the set for any reason than concept, or the fact they -want- the game to be difficult. It will primarily look at Dark Armor's role as a resistance based set, and the multiple weakspots it has that render it one of the weakest Brute secondaries.

First, you need to ask yourself, "Why do I want to play Dark Armor?" I will go over some of the popular reasons people have mentioned to me, when considering this step.

1. I heard that Dark Armor really shines against psychic damage, and I can see myself possibly doing quite well against psychic damage based AVs such as the Leviathan and Numina.

STOP: This is no longer true, post issue 7. You now want to play Electric Armor instead. While Electric Armor is not as powerful at resisting Psi damage as Dark Armor, it doesn't hamstring itself on every other resistance value to provide this mediocre value either.

2. I heard that Dark Armor has Fear and Stun toggles, that render minions around the Dark Armor user less effective! This sounds very cool!

STOP: You would like to take a look at the following ATs. Dominators. Controllers. Defenders. Corruptors. These ATs have powersets that will more than satisfy your need to inflict fear and other status affects upon your enemies, rendering them helpless. Furthermore, Fear and Stun are COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to you, as a brute.

3. I have a concept that revolves around being a master of darkness, and want to have a visual representation of that!

STOP: Dark Armor is not the only armor set anymore, with Darkity Darkness effects! You can now enjoy similar visual representations from the Brute version of Invulnerability.

4. I want to resist negative energy damage reliably!

STOP: Electric Armor and Fire Armor, while not as potent in their Negative Energy Resistance, can do this admirably, and do not involve the general weakness that Dark Armor itself entails. The sets will actually, with proper power choices, fair better against negative damage than Dark Armor does.

5. I want a self ress!

STOP: Fire Armor and Willpower will suit your needs. Dark Armors self ress is the weakest of the 3 self ressurection powers available to Brutes.

If you, after reading the guide, still have a desire to play Dark Armor, please post any questions and I will try to convince you why this is a bad idea.

Of course, when referring to Dark Armor as overall weak and ineffective for Brutes, you have to look at the powers available to the Brute in question. So, let's go over them briefly, and compare them to several other options that are available before starting your career as a brute. After all, the 9 powers that compose every secondary are going to be a key factor in determining the sets overall survivability.

1. Dark Embrace: This power is mandatory, but for good reason. This is your Smash, Lethal, and Toxic resistances, all bundled into one package. It is also half of your negative resistance. The totals on the power, unslotted, are 22.5 Smash resistance, 22.5 Lethal resistance, 15 Toxic Resistance, and 15 Negative. Look those numbers over. Without diving into the fighting pool, this will be your base resistance numbers for the Smash, Lethal, and Toxic damage types. It should be pointed out that Smash/Lethal is almost always present and that low Smash/Lethal resistances will severly impair your survivability. Dark Armor comes in with the lowest resistance numbers to this type, tied for the lowest of sets that rely mostly on resistance, with Fire Armor.

2. Death Shroud: This power is a PBAOE damage field toggle. This ability is "shared" with Electric Armor, Fire Armor, and Stone Armor for Brutes. Sounds good, right? Except, the Dark Armor damage toggle merely does a 8.34 damage per tick. Fire Armor, while only doing damage, comes in higher, at 9.18. Electric Armor is tied, damage wise, with Dark Armor for 8.34 damage, but has the bonus effect of doing negative endurace to the target. Stone Armor's damage toggle does less damage at 7.51, but enjoys the extra benefits of immobilization, -Jump, and -Speed. Electric, Fire, and Dark armor's PBAOE damage toggles all cost the same base .52/s endurance. Stone costs .78/s. Stone, Dark, and Fire's PBAOE all recharge in 4s, with Electric Armor coming in a little slower at 10s. However, seeing as these are toggles, recharge is a minimal concern, at best. You want be turning them on and off repeatedly mid fight, in normal use.

3. Murky Cloud: This power is the power that grants your resistance to Fire, Cold, and Energy damage types, as well as some Negative resistance. The totals of the power, unslotted, come to 22.5 Cold, 22.5 Fire, 15 Energy, and 15 Negative. It also includes the added bonus of being able to resist some endurace drain. Look carefully at the above numbers again. The 15 Negative can be stacked with Dark Embraces 15 Negative for a total 30 percent. The 15 Energy, barring outside sources, will be the ONLY resistance to Energy you will ever get. This establishes one of Dark Armor's multiple, and crippling weaknesses, as Energy is a fairly common damage type.

4. Obsidian Shield: This is your mezz protection toggle. This prevents you from being held, stunned, slept, or feared. Sound good, right? No. There is no protection to Immobilize here, there is no protection to Knockback here or anywhere else in the set, there is no protection from Taunt, Confuse, or Placate, or Repel. The power, for a mezz protect, has more holes than the Titanic post iceberg. It is easily tied with Electric Armor's Static Shield as the weakest Mezz Protection in the Brute arsenal. Electric Armor covers more holes in it's own set later, with a passive. Fire Armor has the oddity of not having it's mezz protection actually consist of being in another toggle. It has resistance to the Hold, Stun, and Sleep that every melee set has. All other sets have better stat protection. It does, however, also hold the only shining light of Dark Armor. Psi resistance, at 37.5 percent. Slotted for resist, Obsidian Shield will cause you to have absolutely no fear of Psi damage ever. Sounds like a great strength for the set, doesn't it? .... Electric Armor does it almost as well with it's own mezz protection toggle, at 26.3, and doesn't suffer from the same serious holes that Dark Armor suffers. Obsidian Shield does provide Dark Armor with Fear resistance, but that is an uncommon status effect, and of no great benefit outside of PVP.

5. Dark Regeneration: This power is a click that heals you, and the amount of the heal increases with each target. This power is hands down, the backbone of the dark armor set. It's what you should, if you choose to avoid the advice given here, should six slot and stick under your arm, because it's going to be your CRUTCH. It will prevent you from being completely worthless in PVE, and will contribute to the comical effect lots of Dark Armor players will see, referred to as the "Magical Color change health bar!" I will now let you in on a well kept secret. For what it does, Dark Regeneration is horrible. IT is the cause of all of the cries and complaints of "My Endurace is gone!" from Dark Armor users, IT is the cause of Dark Armor never being useful for anything other than dealing with minions. IT is the reason that when someone says "Hey, Brute guy, go tank that AV" you will either reply "You need another brute", or try it and die. It sets the stage for what Dark Armor is extremely capable of dealing with effectively.

The same trash every other AT can deal with that doesn't even have armor. Unslotted, it takes 33.8 of your endurance. That's right. This power alone, when used, will drain 1/3rd of your blue bar. It will, however, give you back 30 percent of your health for each target it hits. So, in theory, you leap into the pile of enemies, and activate it to regain all of your health bar as long as you have at least 3 enemies around you! It sounds great, doesn't it? It is...except you have weaker resistances than most sets, so when you dive into a pile of enemies and get aggro, you take more damage, prompting you to cough up 1/3rd to 1/5th of your endurance faster ((depending on slotting.)) Then you also have to concern yourself with the fact it actually has an accuracy requirement. If for any reason, your accuracy is severely debuffed, or you are dealing with a foe with good defense, you will weep as you cast off a healthy portion of your endurance bar for absolutely no effect. Also, versus a single target, you will gain less healing. When are you normally facing a single target? When.. you're fighting an AV, or a Player. Things that will gleefully rip through your tissue paper thin resistances.

Its a must take power, because you can't live withhout it, and it's horrible, because it only elevates you to the role of tanking multiple minions and lieutenants.

Out of all the melee armor self heal powers, it's hands down the worst in execution.

6. Cloak of Darkness: This is toggle provides 3.75 defense to All, +Perception, Stealth, and Immobilize. +Perception and Stealth are nice for PvP, unfortunately, the rest of the set is laughable for this function. The immobilize protection is not something you can't get elsewhere, and if you choose to go the Combat Jumping route, you'd still get 1.8 defense instead of 3.75. It's overall, a pretty subpar power, specially considering it's endurance cost of .26/s.

7. Cloak of Fear: One of the utility/flavor powers in Dark Armor. Provides a PBAOE fear effect of magnitude 3 that lasts 7.5 seconds. It also provides a -5 percent to-hit. This -sounds- good on paper, until you realize a few things. One, it leaks endurance at a rate of 0.52/s. Two, it doesn't apparently stack with it's own effect, so the to-hit debuff is minimal. Three, it only affects things in melee range of you. Four, since it inflicts Fear, which stops incoming attacks, it actually impairs your damage, due to fury loss from what could be gained if the enemies were attacking you. This power shows off why Dark Armor is actually bad for brutes. You don't want to take a lot of attacks, or your subpar resistances will cause you to be overwhelmed by damage. It has toggles that prevent things from attacking you, for this purpose. Things that DONT attack you DO NOT generate fury.

Ponder that last sentence for a moment, while I break out a brief history note. There were going to be Ice Melee/Ice Armor brutes in CoV, at one point. They were scrapped, before leaving beta. Why? Because, the sets caused enemies to attack less, thus causing less Fury to be generated. Yet Dark Armor relies on this, to actually have the Dark Armor user stay alive.

8. Oppressive Gloom: Another Utility/Flavor power. This one provides a PBAOE Mag 2 Stun, with a duration of 7.2 seconds. For each foe hit, you also lose a minor amount of HP. It's endurance cost is cheap, at .08/s, but it still sufferes from being required to be in melee range, and then also causing loss of fury generation.

9. Soul Transfer: Tier 9. Most Brute Armor sets, in this slot, feature a power that pushes you over the top temporarily, covering your weak spots, making your strengths stronger, with some form of penalty afterwards. They're the sets last resort, for when things go bad, and are designed to cover you instead of letting you die. Dark Armor is instead built around the inevitability the set provides. With the sub standard resistances, situational healing, no worthwhile defense, and heck, a power that slowly kills you itself, you will be dying. Soul Transfer, at this point, provides you with the ability to ressurect yourself, inflicting a magnitude 30 stun for a duration of 11 seconds. You can slot for that duration, increasing it to a full 30 seconds. But this is not a full heal, or even full endurance. It instead provides a 19 percent heal for HP, and 30 for endurance, for each target hit. It will also do 41.7 damage. Again, this is another power that is made for that situation where you have gathered a lot of lower class mobs around, gotten overwhelmed, and died. You can then ress and pick them off while they wobble helplessly, stunned. Except, the strong point of the set, the crutch mentioned earlier, Dark Regeneration, makes your dying in these situations less likely. Instead, you're more likely to see this arise when there's only a few very strong enemies, and if they're AVs, they will simply swat you back down before you can even turn back on your toggles. The power is supposed to provide an untouchable period, but it's delayed by a quarter of a second, and NPCs that resist the stun will very HAPPILY take shots at you during that window. For the sake of brevity, Im not going to go over the problems with the power in arena matches.

Also, since there's a requirement for a live target to generate the heal and ress, there will sometimes be times due to lag, DoT, lousy timing where, by the time you realize you've died, and activate the Soul Transfer power, your team has killed everything around you. It's not common, but its a problem the other superior self resses don't have. Just as a point of comparison, you can, with slotting, get Rise of the Phoenix, Fire Armor's tier 9, to heal you for 97 percent of your HP and END. Even at base, it does 50/50. It also does Knockback, and 111.22 Fire damage to everything in range, with another 14.9 second stun, magnitude 4. Aside from the stun, it is obvious leaps and bounds better, and also ALWAYS works. Willpower's self ress, which is a tier 8, heals for 75 percent HP, 50 endurance, and buffs your damage by 35 percent, your to-hit by 30 percent, and your Recharge by 30 percent, for 90 seconds, followed by a 45 second period where these stats will be reduced.

It should be pointed out, that the issues with Dark Armor on a brute cannot be properly pointed out without some comparisons to other sets.

1. Electric Armor: The set features across the board, the highest resist numbers of every Brute Secondary, with one "hole" that can be plugged by it's tier 9. It's weak spot is supposed to be it's lack of a heal, one would guess. This can -easily- be fixed with a well-slotted aid self, making Electric Armor, in my personal opinion THE set to choose if your main concern is survivability.

A quick glance at it's numbers, with all resist powers taken, versus Dark Armor's with all resist powers taken. Ill place the Tier 9 boosted numbers for Elec in a seperate column. These numbers are for unslotted resists.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Electric Electric w/ Tier 9 Dark
Smash: 26.3 78.8 22.5
Lethal: 26.3 78.8 22.5
Energy: 61.9 90((capped, true 121.88)) 15
Negative:22.5 67.5 30
Fire: 26.3 78.8 22.5
Cold: 26.3 78.8 22.5
Psionic: 26.3 26.3 37.5
Toxic: 0. 52.5 15
</pre><hr />

Hands down, Electric Armor is the better set. Electric Armor, with grounded, provides situational knockback protection, which dark armor does not offer. Electric Armor also provides multiple ways to conserve and boost endurance, and teleport protection. The only things that Dark does that Electric Armor isn't ever capable of, is Fear resistance, slightly better Psionic resist, and the Fear and Stun toggles, which as described as above, are actually counteractive to the Brute's strongpoint. Dark Armor also, to cover the knockback hole, has to invest 3 powers and be locked into a travel power, the leaping pool, for Acrobatics. Electric Armor covers it's hole with 2 power in the Medicine pool to get Aid Self.

Review my notes on Dark Regeneration above, and then note this is where I think Dark falls sorely behind. Aid Self provides 19.6 percent health unslotted, at 13 endurance, with a recharge of 20 seconds. It has scary text implying it's interruptible nature, but do not be afraid. With slotting of interrupt reductions, you can actually cut the time it can be broken to under half a second, making it a non issue. And it -never- requires a target. Meanwhile Dark Regeneration takes nearly a third of your endurance bar unenhanced, takes 30 seconds to recharge, and heals 30 percent for every target around you. It yields larger results, but at a higher cost, and only in the right situations. Needless to say, Dark Regeneration against an AV will not be worthwhile.

To top it off, when the going gets tough for Electric Armor, you click Power Surge for the above second set of numbers for resists, making you harder to kill. When the going gets tough for Dark Armor, you die. It's the way the set is designed.

2. Energy Aura: This set is a completely different beast from most Brute sets. I have stood toe to toe back to back, and in battle against this set, and Dark Armor falls short. Of note is the fact it's lack of a heal can be completely undone with two powers dipped into the medicine pool for Aid Self, and Energy Aura by design will decrease the likelihood of it being interrupted. Being built around the concept of defense, a number comparison means very little, however, one note should be pointed out for post level 38 play. When the going gets tough for Energy Aura, you pop Overload, get 45 percent more defense to all but Psionic and Toxic, and additional 40 percent Hitpoints, and a bonus to recovery for the duration of the power. When the going gets tough for Dark Armor, you die. It's the way the set is designed.

3. Fire Armor: This set is probably the closest, true side to side competitor with Dark Armor. It suffers the same lack of an ability to exceed it's own expectations, and is given a self ressurection power instead. Yet, as pointed out in the Soul Transfer notes above, the self ressurection from Rise of the Phoenix exceeds Soul Transfer due to the amount of life healed. There are a few other reasons, that for a brute, Fire Armor is superior to Dark Armor. I'll provide them for you now, but first, let's just match up the numbers. Note: The Toxic resistance is a result of Healing Flames, and only is in effect for 60 seconds after it is used. The parentheses beside the Fire and Cold numbers are for the set without Temperature Protection, as it's widely known as a power that should be uttely disregarded in any build. But, the resistance is still actually there to be taken.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
Fire Dark
Smash: 22.5 22.5
Lethal: 22.5 22.5
Energy: 22.5 15
Negative:22.5 30
Fire: 67.5 (45) 22.5
Cold: 15 (7.5) 22.5
Psionic: 0 37.5
Toxic: 15 15 </pre><hr />

On paper, the sets seem to have a few differences, with Dark being overall across the board more capable, but Fire Armor having higher peaks. So, why is Fire Armor the better choice? Because, once you look past the basics of resistances, Fire Armor provides the Brute more of what it needs, and less flash that is actually counterproductive. Healing Flames is completely superior to Dark Regeneration once slotted, due to a lack of need for a target, a comparable heal, and a lower end cost. Fire Armor also provides the tool of Consume, which while Dark Armor is focused on leaking your endurance out of every hole it can, Fire Armor is providing you a way to recover it. Finally, Fiery Embrace just flat out says, here, more damage for you. It's not exactly a second build up, as it has no to-hit buff, but it does an equal damage buff (80) to Build Up to most damage types, with an extra 20 percent damage for fire. Burn, provided you have a means to lock a foe down, can provide a portion of damage. Meanwhile Cloak of Fear and Oppresive Gloom are actively causing your fury generation to drop. Bottom line? Dark Armor has weak resists, and says "Please don't hit me!" Fire Armor has weak resists, but says "Im going to KILL YOU FIRST". Now, which do you think is more brute like?

4. Invulnerability: Invuln is an odd case. Direct number to number comparison will not do justice, as it relies on a mix of defense and resistance to do it's job, but it still, when compared to Dark Armor for the purpose of keeping you alive, does a better job. Of note, Invulnerability provides a 40 percent heal, and 40 percent more HP, on a click, at unslotted levels, for 10.4 endurance. It is up much less often than Dark Regeneration, but it does provide the ability to take more abuse with the Max HP increase. The Invincibility power encourages the same "wade into the masses" style as Dark Armor as a whole does, but rewards you with accuracy bonuses, ensuring more damage dealt out by you, and defense bonuses. These bonuses increase, with the more mobs around you. In a direct comparison, Invuln and Dark Armor almost seem equal, except for one minor detail. When the tough gets going for Invulnerable, you pop Unstoppable and become harder to kill with a 52.5 resist bonus to everything but Psi, and a recovery bonus. When the going gets tough for Dark Armor, you die. It's the way the set is designed.

5. Stone Armor: Stone Armor is another set of defense and resistance mixed together. It includes a buff to your Max HP and your regeneration. And above all else, it provides Granite Armor, the permanent "you will never kill me" option. While Granite does have a weakness to Psi, its survivability is through the roof, though it does hamper your attack rate and damage somewhat. I don't have personal experience -playing- stone armor, but I've never heard anyone reccomend Dark Armor over it, especially when you consider Granite Armor is possibly one of the best survival tools in the game. And of course, having played beside Stone Armor Brutes, and PVPing against them, I can see why Dark Armor never would be recommended over it.

6. Willpower: Willpower is the new shining baby boy of Brute Defense. It's provides a mix of regeneration, resistance, and defense. It also includes Quick Recovery, and endurance regain is a godsend for brutes. It's tier 9 is not exactly a push to exceptional values, but it, paired with the sets regeneration capabilities, makes it much more durable in a fight. Since Willpower is currently a new set, I will need to give it an honest shot ((and honestly, get a better grasp of the regeneration mechanic)) to see exactly where it falls on the Brute chart of defensive sets. Regardless, rest assured, the mix of Regen, Resist, and Defense places it ABOVE Dark Armor, as shown by a few test runs with other Willpower players side by side. It also has the added benefit of having mezz protection that just about resists everything imaginable, so no need of any hole filling with 3 power slots from a travel pool. Also, Resurgence is of note as being a great self ress, as it doesnt just ress you, but provides you with the tools to do better against anything for the next 90 seconds, not just the things that were near you when you died.

In closing, when compared to the other Brute Armor sets, Dark Armor is a much weaker set. All sets provide "some" survivability. Where they shine or fall is their utility options. Electric Armor provides godly resist values, and can have it's lack of a heal substituted, and includes endurance recovery options. Energy Aura represents the defense camp, for what it's worth, and also has a tier 9 to push it to the limit, and can also have it's lack of a heal substiture. Fire Armor represents the camp of "Kill it faster than it kills you." Invulnerability is a tried and true mix of Defense and Resistance that is showing its age compared to new competitors in Electric and Willpower, but still has the ability to simply "try harder" in situations where it counts, with Unstoppable. Stone Armor is another mix of Defense and Resist, however, it goes to an extreme of not dying, with the ability to give up offense to increase survivability. Willpower provides a mix of lots of little things, with a nifty self ress if things go bad. And Dark Armor? Dark Armor provides you the ability to inflict fear and stun in an area of effect of melee range, and a self ress that props you up to get knocked back down by anything further than 25 feet away.

Think on that when you look over defense sets for your next brute.

Haetron · 02-12-2008 06:20 PM

*sigh* I am sorry, I do not seem to be able to fix the columns that I lined up on the Electric and Fire Armor comparison sections. If anyone has feedback that would help with that, please let me know.

Ashigaru · 02-12-2008 06:33 PM

;_; Hi.

I made a Dark Armor Brute even after Haet told me not too, and look at me now.

*Is covered in cuts and scrapes, is missing one leg, has a cat clawing at his face and Micheal Jackson is rubbing his shoulder, grinning. *

;_; DON'T BE A VICTIM. TURN BACK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. I DIDN'T LISTEN. I MADE A DARK ARMOR BRUTE. LOOK AT ME. RUN. RUN BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

Camo_Fire · 02-12-2008 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
;_; Hi.

I made a Dark Armor Brute even after Haet told me not too, and look at me now.

*Is covered in cuts and scrapes, is missing one leg, has a cat clawing at his face and Micheal Jackson is rubbing his shoulder, grinning. *

;_; DON'T BE A VICTIM. TURN BACK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. I DIDN'T LISTEN. I MADE A DARK ARMOR BRUTE. LOOK AT ME. RUN. RUN BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd account or did he pay you to say that?

Azucar_NA · 02-12-2008 07:49 PM

Hehe, I like this ant-X guide. Never seen one before. And it's always best to get 2 sides on a subject.

Reiraku · 02-12-2008 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
*sigh* I am sorry, I do not seem to be able to fix the columns that I lined up on the Electric and Fire Armor comparison sections. If anyone has feedback that would help with that, please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

use the "code" and "/code" (with brackets instead of quotations) and it should line up just fine.

"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

Haetron · 02-12-2008 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
;_; Hi.

I made a Dark Armor Brute even after Haet told me not too, and look at me now.

*Is covered in cuts and scrapes, is missing one leg, has a cat clawing at his face and Micheal Jackson is rubbing his shoulder, grinning. *

;_; DON'T BE A VICTIM. TURN BACK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. I DIDN'T LISTEN. I MADE A DARK ARMOR BRUTE. LOOK AT ME. RUN. RUN BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd account or did he pay you to say that?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he's someone who asked me about my experience with dark armor, I told him what to expect, and he played it anyway.

Thanks for the help Rei, fixed now?

Reiraku · 02-12-2008 08:38 PM

Yup, looking good!

oh, and lol, DA

"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

Spazz_NA · 02-12-2008 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lol, Brute DA

[/ QUOTE ]

fix'd

Azucar_NA · 02-12-2008 09:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, Brute & Stalker DA

[/ QUOTE ]

fix'd

[/ QUOTE ]

moar fix'd.

KaosQ · 02-13-2008 02:35 AM

Why the hate? I really don't get it. If you don't like a set -- that's one thing. Saying no one should try to play it? Hardly.

I love my /DA. Is it end heavy? Yes. Does it have end problems? See below, but not as much as many of my other characters, including other brutes. Also, are you not running OG or CoF. Both provide excellent mitigation and neither one hinders building fury (why people seem think/assume this I don't know, I have never had problems with fury on my brute). CoF was too expensive for my tastes so I dropped it when OG came up at 35. I may pick up tough but I have not really found the need for it (the only time I have a problem with smashing is carnies because strongmen hit really hard (then again, they hit everyone hard)).

Also, just going off base numbers, I suppose /DA looks like crap. Proper slotting makes everything better. If you don't spend the slots, then no set is going to be good. Does dark regen NEED five or six slots? Yes, yes it does. With 2 acc, 2 end redux, 2 rech it is up as often as I need it, it hits, and it does not destroy my endurance. Do I have two end redux in each of my shields? Yeah, I do. Do I have endurance problems, NOT AT ALL. I can attack constantly and I only ever have problems fighting Mu, only /elecs can say they don't have that problem.

I don't mind the self rez, it's not great. I don't really care about god mode, I'll be perfectly honest. It's a mag 30 stun, I've seen it stun AVs before. It gives you enough time to click your shields back on and can be enough to give your team a breather/get the upper hand. That said, I'll probably drop it because I almost NEVER use it.

All that said, not many brute secondary sets really bloom until much later. /elec early? Not a big fan. After power sink -- absolutely wonderful. Stone? Granite armor isn't until 38. Fire? Burn and Fiery embrace are 28 and 35 and burn really takes off when you get the patron immob. WP I haven't played enough to really tell you, I've enojyed what I've seen early and I can't wait for QR+Stamina. EA? I couldn't stand it personally but others disagree and I've seen some /ea brutes do some amazing things. Same goes for invul (less so on the amazing things but you don't see too many of those these days).

Paired with the right primary (read:almost any) /DA is amazing. My elec/dark is a ton of fun, my em/dark was my first 50 (WH and OG stuns, well, a lot), my dark/dark didn't care if they weren't attacking since shadow punch and smite cycle like no one's business (endless attack chain before level 10? yes please). People even make the unholy end sucking beast that is stone/dark work (not recommended for beginners). SS is pretty much always awesome. DB I haven't played with enough to say.

That said, good slotting and halfway decent planning can make any build good or even great. I love dark armor for brutes, as do many others. I have no problems gaining fury (there was a whole discussion the other day about this) and I don't die unless my team royal screws the pooch and we have three or four spawns on us.

Fixer · 02-13-2008 04:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
;_; Hi.

I made a Dark Armor Brute even after Haet told me not too, and look at me now.

*Is covered in cuts and scrapes, is missing one leg, has a cat clawing at his face and Micheal Jackson is rubbing his shoulder, grinning. *

;_; DON'T BE A VICTIM. TURN BACK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE. I DIDN'T LISTEN. I MADE A DARK ARMOR BRUTE. LOOK AT ME. RUN. RUN BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

[/ QUOTE ]

2nd account or did he pay you to say that?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I know both posters, and could really see Ashi saying that

Here you come with a stupid name like Fixer - brutalkillz_

Haetron · 02-13-2008 04:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why the hate? I really don't get it. If you don't like a set -- that's one thing. Saying no one should try to play it? Hardly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not hate. Ive played the set for two years. While I have a lot of hate for it, I didn't put half of it in this guide, I simply tried to point out places where it falls short. It does provide the benefit of being a more challenging set to play. But if you care about effectiveness, Dark Armor is one of the worst secondaries in the game, for Brutes.

[ QUOTE ]
. Also, are you not running OG or CoF. Both provide excellent mitigation and neither one hinders building fury (why people seem think/assume this I don't know, I have never had problems with fury on my brute).

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, it's a truth. Fury is gained when you attack, and when you are attacked. Cloak of Fear and OG stop incoming attacks by disabling the minions.

It should again be mentioned, they REMOVED Ice Armor/Melee from the game pre-launch, because brutes that did not get attacked were poor at fury generation.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, just going off base numbers, I suppose /DA looks like crap. Proper slotting makes everything better. If you don't spend the slots, then no set is going to be good. Does dark regen NEED five or six slots? Yes, yes it does. With 2 acc, 2 end redux, 2 rech it is up as often as I need it, it hits, and it does not destroy my endurance. Do I have two end redux in each of my shields? Yeah, I do. Do I have endurance problems, NOT AT ALL. I can attack constantly and I only ever have problems fighting Mu, only /elecs can say they don't have that problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, even with slotting, the lowest you're getting Dark Regeneration to is roughly 1/5th of your endurance bar. That's -not- a small amount, and is a major source of Dark Armor's end woes, especially considering it's the crutch that holds the set up.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind the self rez, it's not great. I don't really care about god mode, I'll be perfectly honest. It's a mag 30 stun, I've seen it stun AVs before. It gives you enough time to click your shields back on and can be enough to give your team a breather/get the upper hand. That said, I'll probably drop it because I almost NEVER use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't misinform. The only way that Soul Transfer will stun an AV is if its PTOD drops. Against an AV, it's generally worthless, as you will very likely be targets, and smacked, during the 1/4 a second window about 1/4 a second of the time. Then, even against an AV, you're gaining minimal HP back, and Minimal Endurance, compared to other self resses. Plus, the fact it requires a target can make it worse.

[ QUOTE ]

All that said, not many brute secondary sets really bloom until much later. /elec early? Not a big fan. After power sink -- absolutely wonderful. Stone? Granite armor isn't until 38. Fire? Burn and Fiery embrace are 28 and 35 and burn really takes off when you get the patron immob. WP I haven't played enough to really tell you, I've enojyed what I've seen early and I can't wait for QR+Stamina. EA? I couldn't stand it personally but others disagree and I've seen some /ea brutes do some amazing things. Same goes for invul (less so on the amazing things but you don't see too many of those these days).

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the key problems is that, when other sets are blossoming, and taking on great challenges, Dark Armor is stagnating, and giving you more stuff to deal with trash minions you're probably killing anyway. Then, when the going gets tough and other sets can godmode, Dark Armor just chooses to die.

[ QUOTE ]
Paired with the right primary (read:almost any) /DA is amazing. My elec/dark is a ton of fun, my em/dark was my first 50 (WH and OG stuns, well, a lot), my dark/dark didn't care if they weren't attacking since shadow punch and smite cycle like no one's business (endless attack chain before level 10? yes please). People even make the unholy end sucking beast that is stone/dark work (not recommended for beginners). SS is pretty much always awesome. DB I haven't played with enough to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this, agaim seem to be misninformation. Simply put, if "any primary is awesome" with DA, then there's no synergy of it, and any certain primary. I personally find this somewhat true, as Dark Armor has no real clear cut advantage that make it perform effectively in comparison to you other choices for armor, except it's Psi Resist. Any mitigation you get from your primary will be just as effective with a good secondary armor set, as it will be the less effective Dark Armor.

[ QUOTE ]

That said, good slotting and halfway decent planning can make any build good or even great. I love dark armor for brutes, as do many others. I have no problems gaining fury (there was a whole discussion the other day about this) and I don't die unless my team royal screws the pooch and we have three or four spawns on us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it sounds like you're just saying "Ra Ra, my brute is awesome" without any real solid justification of it's value compared to other sets. There is, no matter how much you -like- your Dark Armor brute, nothing mechanic wise that increases survivability it's capable of, that an Elec Armor brute with Aid Self can't outperform. The purpose of the guide is to explain why Dark Armor is the weakest armor set available to brutes, and should be avoided unless you are looking for a challenge. Saying "Good slotting and planning can make any decent build great" is not being fair to the other secondaries that are options, as if set has higher baseline performance, then proper slotting will cause it to yield higher results.

Renascor · 02-13-2008 08:47 AM

Why do I torture myself by reading these types of posts...

I must be masochistic...

Where to start, and where to go; so much to say, and not sure I care enough to type it all...

No... as I sit here, I realize I don't care. Sometimes when the tide of ignorance threatens to crash over you; you choose to step aside and avoid it rather than stand in its way and try to reason with it.

As such, go ahead and feel... well, whatever it is you are feeling. I just can't seem to care anymore. I am going to go and keep playing my /DA brutes (5 of them) and avoid playing my brutes of other armor sets.

Why? Because when I play the other armors I always wish I was playing /DA instead and end up growing frustrated with their inadaquacies. So go ahead and play your 'superior' sets, and I will pray for you to one day see the light in the heart of darkness; since for now, you seem to be unable to look past the surface.

Good luck, and Good bye.

milk_weasel · 02-13-2008 10:39 AM

I've never found a scrapper secondary nearly as fun as DA. However, I don't think I'd like it on a brute, for many of the reasons above, the primary being AVs and my tank mindframe of brute playage.

Liberty
My 50s:
Hero: Armor Assassin (scrapper), Cross Dresser (scrapper), Surly Seaman (blaster), Defensive End (Tank), Rad Rhino (Cont)
Villain: Beast Infection (Corr), Sweet Zombie Jesus (MM), Milk Weasel (Stalker), Orgullo (MM), Agent Eris (Crab)

Haetron · 02-13-2008 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why? Because when I play the other armors I always wish I was playing /DA instead and end up growing frustrated with their inadaquacies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what inadequacies are those? Unless you're mentioning Psionic damage, Im having a hard time grasping what you think Dark Armor does better than other sets?

There is also a Fear protection, and it's one of only two sets that does this, but Fear is almost non-existent in the PvE game anyway.

KaosQ · 02-13-2008 02:31 PM

Just a few points:

If you want to talk about synergy between sets, EM has great synergy. The generally agreed upon worst move in Energy melee: whirling hands, becomes extremely helpful when you get OG. It's two mag 2 stuns on the most of the spawn (I think WH has a max of 10 targets). Is WH crap as an AoE? Yes, it is. Is it useful mitigation for an EM/DA brute: yes, yes it is. Is it useful for, oh, any other secondary: no, it is (arguably) the most skippable power in set. Dark melee does too, it has a cheap self heal, an end heal, another fear, and it is really good at building fury on its own (ie without needing to get hit). Also, do you think that SS and SM are *teh gimp* because their Tier 9s provide mitigation? Does it make EM gimp because it disorients? Obviously disorient is the worst possible thing for a brute to *evar* have. Knockdown must suck too.

You also argue that dark is locked into CJ, SJ, and acro. First, there are other sets that are just as locked into it (plenty of /elecs decide they need acro, fire does, energy does). Second, there are cheap IOs that can be slotted for good knockback protection, eliminating the need for acro.

Finally, I like stone armor. You need to play it before you comment on it. Stone armor can tank. BRUTES ARE NOT TANKERS. You basically don't do damage in granite. You are locked into a travel power (you have to get teleport to be able to move at all, fly and super jump don't work in granite). I would say dark is harder to play than stone but has far more survivability before 38.

I'm not TRYING to disprove your argument at all. I certainly wasn't claiming that I had statistics or anything of the sort. I was providing the contradictory opinion that LOTS of people like dark armor and have a lot of fun playing. Your post isn't gospel, people are allowed to disagree and decide for themselves. Many people think, however wrongly you may think they are thinking, that dark has one of the better PvE survivabilitiy's of any brute secondary. YOU have YOUR opinion, I have MINE. I felt it was necessary to contribute my point of view on the subject so people were not mislead. By your accounts, I shouldn't be playing CoV anymore and I should want to become an hero after playing as many /da brutes as I have. By my account, I enjoy playing /DA and would encourage people to find sets that they like and that work for them. Just because you don't like /DA doesn't mean that other won't enjoy it and it certainly doesn't mean that I am *teh gimp*.

Vangelus · 02-13-2008 03:30 PM

I'll preface by saying I haven't got much to add to a discussion on Brute DA itself (yeah I play elec >.&gt, outside of the fact that for a scrapper it's often struck me as awesome. That's another AT though.

I do want to say that as far as anti-powerset guides go, I really appreciate the obvious amount of forethought that went into writing it. It beats some guides I've read where the negative opinions don't extend much beyond "this power sucks, you all know why, haha, anyway-". Opening statements were a bit over the top but I don't think anyone would take the time to wander the game and forums and interrogate /DA brutes about their intentions (unless you want to make some kind of unbelievably niche reality tv show), so it's no big. Besides I have a TA, I've heard everything.

As for the discussion from the other side of the coin, that's what having a guides forum is all about IMO. I like being able to read more than one side of an opinion when it's all being given as much thought as many of you are doing in here.

DJs for The Cape Radio

Makes videos & podcasts about reviewing toys, covering conventions, and more at Vangelus.ca

Fulmens · 02-13-2008 03:53 PM

I'm not sure. Some of your points are valid [Dark Regen at Brute speeds has gotta be grim] and some I don't really trust [I build and keep a pretty solid Fury bar just by hitting confused people, I could probably do the same with disoriented ones.] I don't have enough Brute experience, never mind DA brute experience, to say you're wrong... but I think OG is less of a problem than you think.

I have nothing good to say about Cloak of Fear.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

KaosQ · 02-13-2008 04:16 PM

Also, for the record, why are you so concerned about soloing AVs? Teaming with a /thermal, almost any brute can duo AVs and any halfway decent team can take an AV. Soloing though? AVs aren't meant to be soloed, they are meant to be hard, and they are meant to be done on teams (even EBs for the matter, it's why your contacts always tell you to get a team for difficult missions). So yeah, if you're expecting to pawn every AV in the game by yourself, then play a different set. Play one of... wait... how many builds can actually solo AVs as it is? Not that many.

Being able to solo EBs and AVs is hardly a good measure of a brute secondary. That's about the only thing /dark can't do...

Haetron · 02-13-2008 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, for the record, why are you so concerned about soloing AVs? Teaming with a /thermal, almost any brute can duo AVs and any halfway decent team can take an AV. Soloing though? AVs aren't meant to be soloed, they are meant to be hard, and they are meant to be done on teams (even EBs for the matter, it's why your contacts always tell you to get a team for difficult missions). So yeah, if you're expecting to pawn every AV in the game by yourself, then play a different set. Play one of... wait... how many builds can actually solo AVs as it is? Not that many.

Being able to solo EBs and AVs is hardly a good measure of a brute secondary. That's about the only thing /dark can't do...

[/ QUOTE ]

Never mentioned "Soloing" AVs in the guide, I don't believe it's a fair indicator of performance, as you're not supposed to do so.

However, I do think that the ability to withstand an EB assault is, due to the amount they are seen redside.

And yes, you can get a Thermal/Ice to cover your issues with damage mitigation and handle almost anything, but then again... so can any other Brute Secondary.

Again, the simple concern is there is nothing that Dark Armor can do reliably that has value that any other set cannot outperform it at, except the absorbing of Psionic damage, and then even Electric Armor can suit that role admirably well, and then perform better across the board otherwise.

KaosQ · 02-13-2008 09:00 PM

issues with damage mitigation aren't really the issue I don't think. DA has a great, albeit, expensive self heal, 2 damage mitigation toggles and resistances on par or marginally lower with most sets (except for fire in FA, nrgy in elec) and exceeding them in Negative (which you seem to leave out) and Psionic. I agree that elec being able to cap it's nrgy res (even before godmode) makes it the best primary, because 90% res to anything is awesome and nrgy is very common. Another sets strength doesn't make DA bad or not worth playing or unplayable.

And yes, corruptors make everything better. And EB's are meant to be taken on on teams almost as much as AVs are. I like teaming on all of my toons (even my stalkers and scrappers). And DA is better on teams, and most brutes are. If things are attacking they're attacking you, if they aren't attacking they aren't attacking anyone as DA. Fury? Teams can make fury hard to get sometimes (especially some PuGs, 6 brutes? no thanks). Let them to the damage then.

The soloing AVs thing wasn't really aimed at you, I shouldn't have couched it in those terms. It's more a problem I see on the brute boards (and the CoX boards more generally). Some people seem to think that a build not being able to take on AVs makes that build bad. It's just something that annoys me in general. AVs are for teams, the devs have said it again and again. EBs are easier on teams, period. Soloing them is nice, and if I want to I can as my DA brutes (half a tray of inspirations maybe but take them nonetheless, this even applies to my elec/dark, which I was afraid I would have trouble with but they haven't really bugged me).

Also, thanks for ignoring my previous post. If it was because I was being a [censored], well, kudos to you. If you just accidentally skipped it, well, it's there. You might like to read it.

Renascor · 02-13-2008 09:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why? Because when I play the other armors I always wish I was playing /DA instead and end up growing frustrated with their inadaquacies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what inadequacies are those? Unless you're mentioning Psionic damage, Im having a hard time grasping what you think Dark Armor does better than other sets?

There is also a Fear protection, and it's one of only two sets that does this, but Fear is almost non-existent in the PvE game anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine... just this once.

Inadaquency #1: Reliance on Damage Resistance/Defense for damage mitigation.

Inadaquency #2: Intraset god mode balance.

Happy now? There are two for you to ponder. I would explain them, and list others... but I feel that they would fall upon deaf ears. Now I am going to go work on my stone/elec brute... maybe I can finally get her past 36... she has been stuck there forever.

Graff · 02-13-2008 11:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why? Because when I play the other armors I always wish I was playing /DA instead and end up growing frustrated with their inadaquacies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what inadequacies are those? Unless you're mentioning Psionic damage, Im having a hard time grasping what you think Dark Armor does better than other sets?

There is also a Fear protection, and it's one of only two sets that does this, but Fear is almost non-existent in the PvE game anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine... just this once.

Inadaquency #1: Reliance on Damage Resistance/Defense for damage mitigation.

Inadaquency #2: Intraset god mode balance.

Happy now? There are two for you to ponder. I would explain them, and list others... but I feel that they would fall upon deaf ears. Now I am going to go work on my stone/elec brute... maybe I can finally get her past 36... she has been stuck there forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that relying on any one of the possible things to protect you from dying....on a set that's meant to take hits, is a bad thing. If I may ask what do you rely on? Divine favor perhaps? There was also no suggesting he wanted god mode balance, just stating quite simply that the dark res, in comparison to other self resses is indeed sub par.

Graff's Deviant Art!
http://eargasm.deviantart.com/

Renascor · 02-14-2008 06:19 AM

Fine... I guess I will explain, since both of your interpretations are rather wide of the mark.

First, the reliance on damage resistance/defense. I suppose I should have added the word only to that sentence but oh well. what I meant was that the set relies solely on damage resist and/or defense toggles as the only form of damage mitigation. Example: electric armor is a set that relies on its damage resistance, it doesn't really have any other form of damage mitigation. Dark armor also uses control as a form of damage mitigation in addition to its damage resist/defense toggles.

Second, the key word here was 'intraset' rather than 'interset'. I meant the balance they do within a set to compensate for the additional power a god-mode can give to it. Evidence of this can be seen during the testing of willpower and its Strength of Will power.

Is it clearer now?