Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 18:02 in Player Guides
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt the OP believes that /DA is useless, but that for all its use, there are other sets that could do a better job.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then by your claim the OP has made very unreasonable assertions in his "guide", because a reasonable person would not advise people to "never" play something that was not so much less useful than the alternatives that it wouldn't be considered to be of vanishingly small use.
[/ QUOTE ]
By my view of it, I'd say never say never to use something. If it's fun and you like it, go for it. If he wants to write a guide on why one shouldn't use it, groovy. Just take the guide at face value instead of the subtext that might not be there.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
I see more people that haven't read it as that. Is it really that hard to say "Do you believe /DA is useless?" instead of just assuming that is what he meant? It definitely would have saved a couple of pages worth of pointless semantics.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only person I see chasing the semantic argument here is you. You are the one who specifically started it, asking someone to quote where the OP said "useless" in response to Gilfred's use of that word. I just happen to be playing along.
The only people I have seen reply in here in an affirmative way are folks I either don't know from Adam or who their posting history specifically indicates to me that I will not aggree with their conclusions (or how they came to them). On the other hand, the people who disagree with this guide's survival assertions are some of the names on thos forum who I most respect and trust, especially in terms of the viability of powersets in terms of survival. Given that, and given my own play experience which contradicts the conclusions in this guide, and given the strong terms used ("you should never do this") I find this guide of low face value. I think that's worth discussion. I think it's worth efforts to show readers why this guide presents poor advice and backs it up with poor conclusions.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see more people that haven't read it as that. Is it really that hard to say "Do you believe /DA is useless?" instead of just assuming that is what he meant? It definitely would have saved a couple of pages worth of pointless semantics.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only person I see chasing the semantic argument here is you. You are the one who specifically started it, asking someone to quote where the OP said "useless" in response to Gilfred's use of that word. I just happen to be playing along.
The only people I have seen reply in here in an affirmative way are folks I either don't know from Adam or who their posting history specifically indicates to me that I will not aggree with their conclusions (or how they came to them). On the other hand, the people who disagree with this guide's survival assertions are some of the names on thos forum who I most respect and trust, especially in terms of the viability of powersets in terms of survival. Given that, and given my own play experience which contradicts the conclusions in this guide, and given the strong terms used ("you should never do this") I find this guide of low face value. I think that's worth discussion. I think it's worth efforts to show readers why this guide presents poor advice and backs it up with poor conclusions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did indeed ask for someone to point out where the OP said that /DA was useless, mostly to the effect that false claims are being attributed to him. If anyone wants to disagree with his guide with their own evidence, be it of better or poor quality, fine. Just don't put words in his mouth on an assumed meaning.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps, but once again you are taking an assumption on his meaning based on "reading between the lines." If you wish to find out if he thought the set as useless, then ask him for clarification on whether or not he does feel the set useless. If he answers positively to that, then you can make such a claim. Otherwise, you're reading into a conclusion that is not presented.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't need to ask him that. The very fact that so many people have, in fact, read it between the lines is sufficent to the point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because a majority believe A, doesn't mean A is the case.
If I put a message on the boards saying "Reiraku wears women's clothing!", and everyone interprets that as me attempting to insult Reiraku, that doesn't mean it's the case. I could just be implying that Reiraku is a woman.
Just because X number of people believe the OP was trying to say something, doesn't mean that's what he was trying to say, and living in a Democracy doesn't make that any more the case.
Additionally: Reiraku is right to attempt to pull away the strawman arguement being attributed to the OP. I have no experience with /DA, so I don't know if his arguements are correct or incorrect, but one of the most common (and most flawed) attempts to disprove someone's arguement are to attribute things to them that they didn't say and then disprove them.
If you wish to disprove the OPs statements, the easiest way is to find the logical links (A leads to B, and if B's the case therefore C) and disprove vital links in them (E.G. A does NOT lead to B, backed up with evidence D).
Edit: Additional: I don't know Reiraku, so I hope they don't mind my accusation of lady-clothes wearing.
Although they do. They say they like the breeziness.
<QR>
Okay so everyone then has to either use a word or state the same thing by its definition in order for those to be able to say he said that.
Then I could write a guide saying that powerset x for AT y is useless. But if I do not use the word then players said that I said it is useless is wrong. All I would have to do is to say powerset x is the weakest so never use it. But remember what it does well is covered by the other sets so never use it. Unless you are looking for a challenge or for concept. But still the other sets are so much better. The OP really wants to say it is useless but he knows that he cannot say that without getting alot of nasty pm's and having nasty replies. Also his guide would've been instantly locked and deleted if he did.
Regardless of anything positive the OP says about DA he still says never use it for your brute.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
Four, since it inflicts Fear, which stops incoming attacks, it actually impairs your damage, due to fury loss from what could be gained if the enemies were attacking you. This power shows off why Dark Armor is actually bad for brutes. You don't want to take a lot of attacks, or your subpar resistances will cause you to be overwhelmed by damage. It has toggles that prevent things from attacking you, for this purpose.
Ponder that last sentence for a moment, while I break out a brief history note. There were going to be Ice Melee/Ice Armor brutes in CoV, at one point. They were scrapped, before leaving beta. Why? Because, the sets caused enemies to attack less, thus causing less Fury to be generated. Yet Dark Armor relies on this, to actually have the Dark Armor user stay alive.
8. Oppressive Gloom: Another Utility/Flavor power. This one provides a PBAOE Mag 2 Stun, with a duration of 7.2 seconds. For each foe hit, you also lose a minor amount of HP. It's endurance cost is cheap, at .08/s, but it still sufferes from being required to be in melee range, and then also causing loss of fury generation.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm reading this correctly then, FM is the #1 best choice for a primary as it doesn't slow fury generation at all.
[ QUOTE ]
Things that DONT attack you DO NOT generate fury
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. They also don't remove points from your HP bar but to each his own.
On a more serious note, I don't believe I've ever had fury problems on my em/invuln due to stunning most anything he touches. In fact on a regular basis I'll begin with TF on a target then switch and buzzsaw the other two into a stuper until they all drop.
While I see the main topic is on secondary, I'm specifically referring to mez effects which are "counterproductive".
And my /invuln is of the few and far between for dropping invinc+TH 
Trust me, considering Haetron's history on these forums, I seriously doubt he's going to avoid posting something for fear of a negative reaction. He isn't one to soft tell something because someone might be offended by it.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
For the record, I don't think /DA is useless, but as I said, the other sets simply do a better job. And unless it's for a concept build, or personal challenge, one would be better off going with a different secondary.
Im willing to concede that to some people and playstyles, the reduction of Fury Generation caused by Oppressive Gloom and Cloak of Fear is not an issue. It wasn't for me either, as after giving both powers a trial run, I dropped them. I personally took Dark Armor for concept, not effectiveness. I also would not say it's -useless- but the problem is that aside from being melee-troller guy, there's very little the set offers that can't be had from other sets, with less weaknesses, except Fear protection. It can be used for Psionic heavy situations, but post I7, Electric Armor can also be used, and post I12, Willpower holds it's own with that damage type as well.
Points I'd like to mention that have been brought up?
One: How is Soul Transfer the best self-ress in the game? It shares Dark Regenerations nature of being over saturating in an effect (in Soul Transfers case, Stun), at the cost of requiring a target, and if there are not multiple targets (3-5)you're simply prompting yourself to get crushed again. Other self-resses don't require a target, have higher heal/endurance return, and provide effects that are useful as well. Rise of the Phoenix has a longer duration stun for less magnitude, and knockback, and a better return on HP/End. And it's always useable when you're dead, something Soul Transfer is not. Yes, you can actually activate the Soul Transfer power and -not get ressed at all-.
I don't personally buy into Dark Armor being more valuable because with it's weaker resists, buffs don't get wasted by pressing you over the cap. The only buff that causes Dark Armor any real increased value over other sets is +recovery, due to the fact the set is crutched up by Dark Regeneration, and thus lives and dies by it's endurance usage. Things like +regeneration even have less of an effect than other sets, because several sets have a +HP boost that increases the effectiveness of regeneration.
Please stop trying to read between the lines, argue about the -nature- of the guide, and if you want to really debate it's usefulness and accuracy, try to stick to the points listed in the guide?
I would just like to say I LOVE how personally offended some people are getting about this. Please continue.
Also, lol at Deus for judging someone by their post count. GG.
Here you come with a stupid name like Fixer - brutalkillz_
I am not going to argue the view points expressed here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as am I. However there is a difference between facts and facts laced with opinions. Generally any fact can be used by anyone to support or refute a statement. This guide is no different in my opinion. If facts were stated without opinions then that would leave it to the reader to generate their own opinions of what they perceive the facts are. However this guide was laced with opinions which now sets up 3 camps of posts. Those that support, those that oppose and those that are on the fence.
Personally I do not like the opinions in the guide however I can see how they are generated and at times have come to similar conclusions in my own time of analyzing Dark Armor. However those early conclusions were not accounting for DA's strengths. Which for a Melee AT are somewhat unique. While most Brute sets have one or two additional forms of Damage Mitigation besides Resistance and or Defense, Dark Armor has 5.
Lets lay out the examples.
Electric Armor
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Damage
Energy Aura
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Fiery Aura
Resistance
Heal
Endurance Drain
Damage
Stone Armor
Resistance
Defense
Regeneration
Heal
Damage
WillPower
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Management
Regeneration
Invuln
Resistance
Defense
Heal
Dark Armor
Resistance
Defense
Stun
Fear
Heal
To Hit - Debuff
Damage
Dark Armor has 5 forms of additional damage mitigation. Considering these additional forms is why DA does not have the Strait up Resistance or Defense that other sets have. However that does not make DA easier to play. Believe it or not in my opinion DA is what I consider an Intelligence set. Something that requires multitasking and critical thinking. The prime example is not running every toggle every time. Each situation has different ways that it can be handled. The best way to build fury is to run into a large group without OG or CoF running, hit Dark Regen and once you are close to 75% Fury turn on OG and go to work. Playing aggressive like any other Brute will keep the fury up. With the controls going you take 75% of the spawns out of the fight. I do not know any other set that can do that being a Melee AT.
Now that fact that I consider DA an intelligence set does not mean I am trying to insult anyone however its all about how each person wants to play. DA takes time and effort to understand and allot of trial and error however once mastered it is in my opinion one of the best experiences anyone can have playing COV.
One point I can also make for DA is the primary pairings. Some Primaries mesh well with DA and can generate a different experience then what someone else may have. From my experience while Stone Melee is a serious endurance issue the mitigation it offers in conjunction with DA can not be matched period. OG+Fault = Perma Stunned Mobs. 100% Mitigation. Thats about as good as it gets.
In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone elses.
*edited in Invuln, I missed it*
[ QUOTE ]
In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone elses
[/ QUOTE ]
Your sensible and polite mannerisms and cogent point have no place here, sir. 
Here you come with a stupid name like Fixer - brutalkillz_
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone elses
[/ QUOTE ]
Your sensible and polite mannerisms and cogent point have no place here, sir.
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably not however thats the way I am 
I can go back to your first post and remind you that for every reason including concept that a player would state why they would chose it you would say do not take it. Your very title even says the same thing. Now I see the word I was missing thanks to Ice and that is opinion. Now every guide does have some opinions. But out of all of the guides that I have seen this is the first that says to never use a set.
No guide should ever do that. A guide is there to tell you how to use it, not to avoid it becaue it is not optimal. To avoid it because it is not like the fire and forget sets. This guide and your posts are trying to sway the readers to not take it and maybe go looking for the optimal or you could say only take the best set for brutes.
I have no doubt that others that have written guides may have hated what they were writing about but kept that hatred out of their guide as they should. Because hatred causes an individual to not see straight and do things that they later regret. That is something that I have seen many times over.
Your guide can say if you want have an efficient or optimal secodary for a brute then DA is not for you. If you do not want a secondary that will make you a melee troller then DA is not for you. Then your guide should've had how to slot DA and what primaries are good for DA. Next you guide should've showed the stragety for playing the DA brute with various primaries, only showing all primaries if you have had experience with them or can easily tell how they mesh with DA.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
I am not going to argue the view points expressed here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as am I. However there is a difference between facts and facts laced with opinions. Generally any fact can be used by anyone to support or refute a statement. This guide is no different in my opinion. If facts were stated without opinions then that would leave it to the reader to generate their own opinions of what they perceive the facts are. However this guide was laced with opinions which now sets up 3 camps of posts. Those that support, those that oppose and those that are on the fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't these same 3 camps generally form about almost all power sets anyway? Granted, the fact I didn't act completely unbiased and detached from my guide may have made it more public on this post. But it's not like every guide that is posted is unbiased. Its just that if something shows bias in a favorable manner, less people are going to discuss it, because the people that don't like the subject of the guide probably won't bother even reading it. Negative opinions of anything that isn't inherently a negative itself tend to draw huge backlash.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I do not like the opinions in the guide however I can see how they are generated and at times have come to similar conclusions in my own time of analyzing Dark Armor. However those early conclusions were not accounting for DA's strengths. Which for a Melee AT are somewhat unique. While most Brute sets have one or two additional forms of Damage Mitigation besides Resistance and or Defense, Dark Armor has 5.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for this input, but I think here, your own opinions are showing, as you don't mentions several aspects that some sets bring to the table. I mean, if you're going to consider Death Shroud and Dark Regeneration's damage as mitigation, ((And to be fair, you did point out Elec's as well)), and the 5%ToHit Debuff on CoF, you need to point out all of the strengths of each set.
Additions are in the below quote block, in bold Italic text.
[ QUOTE ]
Lets lay out the examples.
Electric Armor
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Damage
+Speed
+Recharge
Slow Resistance
Endurance Drain Resistance
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases
-----
Energy Aura
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Endurance Management
Passive Resists
Defense Debuff Resistance
Temporary HP and Heavy Defense Increase
-----
Fiery Aura
Resistance
Heal
Endurance Drain
Damage
Passive Resistance
----
Stone Armor
Resistance
Defense
Regeneration
Heal
Damage
+40 Percent Max HP
Passive Resistance
Ability to trade offensive output for sustained, heavier Defense and Resistance increase
----
WillPower
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Management
Regeneration
+20 Percent Max HP
Passve Resistance.
ToHit Debuff
Temporary Resistance moderate resistance increases available after fixed intervals.
----
Invuln
Resistance
Defense
Heal
Passive Resistances.
Passive Defense.
+40% Max HP
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases
ToHit Buffs
-----
Dark Armor
Resistance
Defense
Stun
Fear
Heal
To Hit - Debuff
Damage
Endurance Drain Resist
[/ QUOTE ]
And there's still probably some stuff that's been forgotten. Im sure someone will point out I didn't include Dark Armor's +Perception and Stealth, but I didn't point out other sets examples of that either. I feel passives warrant a seperate mention as they do come of use, even if players tend to overlook them. There's values to the varying types of resistance and defense the game provides, that are unique of each other. Toggles provide moderate protection when you're not held/stunned for a continuing endurance cost. Passives provide lesser protection that is permanently active, and costs no endurance to use. "God Modes" provide brief exceptional protection with some form of cost on the end of the power. To lump them all together isn't really fair, as some sets provide one type, ((Dark Armor)) some provide two types, ((Fire Armor)) and some provide 3 types. ((Invulnerability.))
[ QUOTE ]
Dark Armor has 5 forms of additional damage mitigation. Considering these additional forms is why DA does not have the Strait up Resistance or Defense that other sets have. However that does not make DA easier to play. Believe it or not in my opinion DA is what I consider an Intelligence set. Something that requires multitasking and critical thinking. The prime example is not running every toggle every time. Each situation has different ways that it can be handled. The best way to build fury is to run into a large group without OG or CoF running, hit Dark Regen and once you are close to 75% Fury turn on OG and go to work. Playing aggressive like any other Brute will keep the fury up. With the controls going you take 75% of the spawns out of the fight. I do not know any other set that can do that being a Melee AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem here, is that reward and extra effort worth the reward? That's going to be an opinion more than anything. The time spent making sure everything is mitigated properly on one brute is time other secondaries can focus towards killing the spawn faster, as some of their defenses are not as situational, and also not as endurance usage heavy. This is not to say other sets do not have situational mitigation, that's obviously not the case.
[ QUOTE ]
Now that fact that I consider DA an intelligence set does not mean I am trying to insult anyone however its all about how each person wants to play. DA takes time and effort to understand and allot of trial and error however once mastered it is in my opinion one of the best experiences anyone can have playing COV.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no insult taken by that statement. Even in my OP, I stated that Dark Armor is the "Challenge" set. Dumb players need not apply. ((oh boy, someone's going to lynch me for that now)) After playing it and "mastering" it, ((Who's to say I did. I never bothered with IOs, which obviously improve some of the weaknesses of the set.)) I walked away with the opinion the reward isn't worth the effort.
I felt, ((Yes, more personal opinion here, admittedly))
<ul type="square">[*]I had leveled a set that was far too reliant on one power for survival.[*]That the set would never be able to "Self Exceed". This is the temporary ability to heavily increase your mitigation beyond the standard methods of the set, without outside buffs.[*]Would never be sought after for any specific reason other than team filler. ((Granted, this isn't unique to Dark.))[*]Was designed with full knowledge it would occaisonally "fail", therefore, had a self ress.[*]Would never perform well in PVP due to it's main strengths being negated by player movement, and it's weaknesses to common damage types.[/list]
[ QUOTE ]
One point I can also make for DA is the primary pairings. Some Primaries mesh well with DA and can generate a different experience then what someone else may have. From my experience while Stone Melee is a serious endurance issue the mitigation it offers in conjunction with DA can not be matched period. OG+Fault = Perma Stunned Mobs. 100% Mitigation. Thats about as good as it gets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Every Secondary seems to have a primary it meshes with, sometimes it's not obvious. The mitigation provided by primaries should not overlooked by any serious player, and Stone Melee is one of those sets that excels with this. I personally chose Energy Melee for concept ((Wanted a Positive/Negative energy theme)) but -thought- the stun stacking with Oppressive Gloom would pay off. Does it? Yes. Not as much as I'd like, personally, but I can't deny that I've occaisonally used it to my advantage.
[ QUOTE ]
In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone elses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said. I see lots of guides that try to encourage players to choose a set, but I could not, in my own "good conscience" write such a guide. I have had several players IG ask my opinion of the set, and some have went ahead, ignored advice, played it and loved it anyway. Others have said "Why didn't I listen to you in the first place." And others have said "That makes sense, maybe I shouldn't play it." I didn't want to write a glowing endorsement of the set, and then have to field the same complaints I personally have with the set and pretend they don't exist. That, is what would be "dishonest". ((No offense to you, it's something I've had tossed at me several times in the thread.))
[ QUOTE ]
I can go back to your first post and remind you that for every reason including concept that a player would state why they would chose it you would say do not take it. Your very title even says the same thing. Now I see the word I was missing thanks to Ice and that is opinion. Now every guide does have some opinions. But out of all of the guides that I have seen this is the first that says to never use a set.
No guide should ever do that. A guide is there to tell you how to use it, not to avoid it becaue it is not optimal. To avoid it because it is not like the fire and forget sets. This guide and your posts are trying to sway the readers to not take it and maybe go looking for the optimal or you could say only take the best set for brutes.
I have no doubt that others that have written guides may have hated what they were writing about but kept that hatred out of their guide as they should. Because hatred causes an individual to not see straight and do things that they later regret. That is something that I have seen many times over.
Your guide can say if you want have an efficient or optimal secodary for a brute then DA is not for you. If you do not want a secondary that will make you a melee troller then DA is not for you. Then your guide should've had how to slot DA and what primaries are good for DA. Next you guide should've showed the stragety for playing the DA brute with various primaries, only showing all primaries if you have had experience with them or can easily tell how they mesh with DA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why?
There was no way I could honestly write a guide that gave Dark Armor ANY kind of endorsement, from a personal opinion standpoint, but on the other side of the coin, it's a set that gets a lot of praise, but also a lot of misinformation and misrepresentation of what the set is capable of.
I think the question here, is if someone is going to give you a guide and assessment to a set, would you rather have them not point out the problems with the set, make it all glowy rosy and sweet, and then bump into those problems yourself?
People insert flavor and opinion into their guides all the time, because lots of people don't want to read a boring, cut and dry list of information about a set that has nothing but factual information and no insight by the player at all.
Gil, I've enjoyed your contributions to the thread, and sorry if you feel some form of insult at the guide itself. Dark Armor was my second 50, and I couldn't have made it if it was "unplayable". But -ESPECIALLY- in CoV, where every other 40+ mission seems to drop an EB in your lap, and more and more mobs use tactics rarely seen blue side by Dark Armor scrappers, I can't reccomend the set at all.
That would be dishonest, and it's not something Im going to do.
[ QUOTE ]
A fair assessment would be one that says "DA Brutes have powers that make them really strong when fighting against a room full of opponents, but rather weak against single, Mez-protected superbads. They won't be hunting AVs while solo, and of course one-on-one PvP isn't going to be their strong point either. So if you do a lot of fighting against the lone uberopponent and like to tell everyone how you did the LRSF alone, DA is probably not for you. But there's no better Brute to have around when you've got some nitwit on the team who just aggroed 5 mobs--those baddies will be so busy trying to decide whether to cower or stagger that the DA Brute will mop the floor with them and look good doing it."
[/ QUOTE ]
This has been my experience.
Also, Reiraku wears women's clothes.
[ QUOTE ]
Just because a majority believe A, doesn't mean A is the case.
[/ QUOTE ]
When it's a matter of describing the message delivered in written text, it does. It doesn't matter what the author intended, it matters what the author achieved. If people read the author's text regulawrly interpret it in a similar way then the simple fact is that the author's word choice and overall structure is delivering a patricular message.
Here are the messages I can find in this guide.
[*] "Don't ever play Dark Armor as a Brute." (Explicitly stated.)[*] "Dark Armor's mitigation is lower than any other set's." (Aggregated through attempt at illustration. Debatable.)[*] "Dark Amor for Brutes should receive dev attention because it's so bad." (Easy to infer from such strong assertions about its low performance.)[*] "Dark Armor is ineffective/pointless/useless" (Predictable condensation of the guide's message into chat messages with friends.)
I consider that last "message" a leap easy to make for those who trust guide writers to be largely objective in their works.
[ QUOTE ]
Additionally: Reiraku is right to attempt to pull away the strawman arguement being attributed to the OP. I have no experience with /DA, so I don't know if his arguements are correct or incorrect, but one of the most common (and most flawed) attempts to disprove someone's arguement are to attribute things to them that they didn't say and then disprove them.
[/ QUOTE ]
While this would be admirable, I don't think it's what's going on. The people who will end up at the "strawman-esque" conclusion will be the otherwise uninformed readers who read the guide.
"Hmm, if it performs so badly, and must obviously need love from the devs, with all the other powersets we can choose, what's the point in playing such a gimp set? If they aren't going to fix it up they should just remove it from the Brute sets. It's obviously useless."
What we're objecting to is not that the OP made these conclusions, but that he used "facts" we dispute to make it easy for a trusting reader to come to them. If you've ever wandered through the Suggestions Forum you'll find people asking questions about all sorts of things that sound like some CoH version of the "phone game," with the most bizzare-seeming misunderstandings of game mechanics that they heard third-hand. (At least some of them come and ask about them!) The last thing I want to see is this section, of all places, becoming a platform fostering those sorts of misconceptions.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not going to argue the view points expressed here. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, as am I. However there is a difference between facts and facts laced with opinions. Generally any fact can be used by anyone to support or refute a statement. This guide is no different in my opinion. If facts were stated without opinions then that would leave it to the reader to generate their own opinions of what they perceive the facts are. However this guide was laced with opinions which now sets up 3 camps of posts. Those that support, those that oppose and those that are on the fence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't these same 3 camps generally form about almost all power sets anyway? Granted, the fact I didn't act completely unbiased and detached from my guide may have made it more public on this post. But it's not like every guide that is posted is unbiased. Its just that if something shows bias in a favorable manner, less people are going to discuss it, because the people that don't like the subject of the guide probably won't bother even reading it. Negative opinions of anything that isn't inherently a negative itself tend to draw huge backlash.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I do not like the opinions in the guide however I can see how they are generated and at times have come to similar conclusions in my own time of analyzing Dark Armor. However those early conclusions were not accounting for DA's strengths. Which for a Melee AT are somewhat unique. While most Brute sets have one or two additional forms of Damage Mitigation besides Resistance and or Defense, Dark Armor has 5.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for this input, but I think here, your own opinions are showing, as you don't mentions several aspects that some sets bring to the table. I mean, if you're going to consider Death Shroud and Dark Regeneration's damage as mitigation, ((And to be fair, you did point out Elec's as well)), and the 5%ToHit Debuff on CoF, you need to point out all of the strengths of each set.
Additions are in the below quote block, in bold Italic text.
[ QUOTE ]
Lets lay out the examples.
Electric Armor
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Damage
+Speed
+Recharge
Slow Resistance
Endurance Drain Resistance
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases
-----
Energy Aura
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Drain
Endurance Management
Passive Resists
Defense Debuff Resistance
Temporary HP and Heavy Defense Increase
-----
Fiery Aura
Resistance
Heal
Endurance Drain
Damage
Passive Resistance
----
Stone Armor
Resistance
Defense
Regeneration
Heal
Damage
+40 Percent Max HP
Passive Resistance
Ability to trade offensive output for sustained, heavier Defense and Resistance increase
----
WillPower
Defense
Resistance
Endurance Management
Regeneration
+20 Percent Max HP
Passve Resistance.
ToHit Debuff
Temporary Resistance moderate resistance increases available after fixed intervals.
----
Invuln
Resistance
Defense
Heal
Passive Resistances.
Passive Defense.
+40% Max HP
Temporary Heavy Resistance Increases
ToHit Buffs
-----
Dark Armor
Resistance
Defense
Stun
Fear
Heal
To Hit - Debuff
Damage
Endurance Drain Resist
[/ QUOTE ]
And there's still probably some stuff that's been forgotten. Im sure someone will point out I didn't include Dark Armor's +Perception and Stealth, but I didn't point out other sets examples of that either. I feel passives warrant a seperate mention as they do come of use, even if players tend to overlook them. There's values to the varying types of resistance and defense the game provides, that are unique of each other. Toggles provide moderate protection when you're not held/stunned for a continuing endurance cost. Passives provide lesser protection that is permanently active, and costs no endurance to use. "God Modes" provide brief exceptional protection with some form of cost on the end of the power. To lump them all together isn't really fair, as some sets provide one type, ((Dark Armor)) some provide two types, ((Fire Armor)) and some provide 3 types. ((Invulnerability.))
[ QUOTE ]
Dark Armor has 5 forms of additional damage mitigation. Considering these additional forms is why DA does not have the Strait up Resistance or Defense that other sets have. However that does not make DA easier to play. Believe it or not in my opinion DA is what I consider an Intelligence set. Something that requires multitasking and critical thinking. The prime example is not running every toggle every time. Each situation has different ways that it can be handled. The best way to build fury is to run into a large group without OG or CoF running, hit Dark Regen and once you are close to 75% Fury turn on OG and go to work. Playing aggressive like any other Brute will keep the fury up. With the controls going you take 75% of the spawns out of the fight. I do not know any other set that can do that being a Melee AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem here, is that reward and extra effort worth the reward? That's going to be an opinion more than anything. The time spent making sure everything is mitigated properly on one brute is time other secondaries can focus towards killing the spawn faster, as some of their defenses are not as situational, and also not as endurance usage heavy. This is not to say other sets do not have situational mitigation, that's obviously not the case.
[ QUOTE ]
Now that fact that I consider DA an intelligence set does not mean I am trying to insult anyone however its all about how each person wants to play. DA takes time and effort to understand and allot of trial and error however once mastered it is in my opinion one of the best experiences anyone can have playing COV.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no insult taken by that statement. Even in my OP, I stated that Dark Armor is the "Challenge" set. Dumb players need not apply. ((oh boy, someone's going to lynch me for that now)) After playing it and "mastering" it, ((Who's to say I did. I never bothered with IOs, which obviously improve some of the weaknesses of the set.)) I walked away with the opinion the reward isn't worth the effort.
I felt, ((Yes, more personal opinion here, admittedly))
<ul type="square">[*]I had leveled a set that was far too reliant on one power for survival.[*]That the set would never be able to "Self Exceed". This is the temporary ability to heavily increase your mitigation beyond the standard methods of the set, without outside buffs.[*]Would never be sought after for any specific reason other than team filler. ((Granted, this isn't unique to Dark.))[*]Was designed with full knowledge it would occaisonally "fail", therefore, had a self ress.[*]Would never perform well in PVP due to it's main strengths being negated by player movement, and it's weaknesses to common damage types.[/list]
[ QUOTE ]
One point I can also make for DA is the primary pairings. Some Primaries mesh well with DA and can generate a different experience then what someone else may have. From my experience while Stone Melee is a serious endurance issue the mitigation it offers in conjunction with DA can not be matched period. OG+Fault = Perma Stunned Mobs. 100% Mitigation. Thats about as good as it gets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Every Secondary seems to have a primary it meshes with, sometimes it's not obvious. The mitigation provided by primaries should not overlooked by any serious player, and Stone Melee is one of those sets that excels with this. I personally chose Energy Melee for concept ((Wanted a Positive/Negative energy theme)) but -thought- the stun stacking with Oppressive Gloom would pay off. Does it? Yes. Not as much as I'd like, personally, but I can't deny that I've occaisonally used it to my advantage.
[ QUOTE ]
In conclusion, while I disagree with many points in this guide I understand were they come from. The one thing I ask everyone reading this guide to understand. Experiences differ from person to person and the best answer is to take all opinions and opinion laced facts with a grain of salt. Let your own experiences determine your actions not someone elses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said. I see lots of guides that try to encourage players to choose a set, but I could not, in my own "good conscience" write such a guide. I have had several players IG ask my opinion of the set, and some have went ahead, ignored advice, played it and loved it anyway. Others have said "Why didn't I listen to you in the first place." And others have said "That makes sense, maybe I shouldn't play it." I didn't want to write a glowing endorsement of the set, and then have to field the same complaints I personally have with the set and pretend they don't exist. That, is what would be "dishonest". ((No offense to you, it's something I've had tossed at me several times in the thread.))
[/ QUOTE ]
Very well said, this is really what I wanted you to say in your OP. It is opinion and others do well with it even if it's hard. Kudos, this is a great post and it would have probably saved us all a lot of trouble if you had said it from the start and just called the guide something different.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can go back to your first post and remind you that for every reason including concept that a player would state why they would chose it you would say do not take it. Your very title even says the same thing. Now I see the word I was missing thanks to Ice and that is opinion. Now every guide does have some opinions. But out of all of the guides that I have seen this is the first that says to never use a set.
No guide should ever do that. A guide is there to tell you how to use it, not to avoid it becaue it is not optimal. To avoid it because it is not like the fire and forget sets. This guide and your posts are trying to sway the readers to not take it and maybe go looking for the optimal or you could say only take the best set for brutes.
I have no doubt that others that have written guides may have hated what they were writing about but kept that hatred out of their guide as they should. Because hatred causes an individual to not see straight and do things that they later regret. That is something that I have seen many times over.
Your guide can say if you want have an efficient or optimal secodary for a brute then DA is not for you. If you do not want a secondary that will make you a melee troller then DA is not for you. Then your guide should've had how to slot DA and what primaries are good for DA. Next you guide should've showed the stragety for playing the DA brute with various primaries, only showing all primaries if you have had experience with them or can easily tell how they mesh with DA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why?
There was no way I could honestly write a guide that gave Dark Armor ANY kind of endorsement, from a personal opinion standpoint, but on the other side of the coin, it's a set that gets a lot of praise, but also a lot of misinformation and misrepresentation of what the set is capable of.
I think the question here, is if someone is going to give you a guide and assessment to a set, would you rather have them not point out the problems with the set, make it all glowy rosy and sweet, and then bump into those problems yourself?
People insert flavor and opinion into their guides all the time, because lots of people don't want to read a boring, cut and dry list of information about a set that has nothing but factual information and no insight by the player at all.
Gil, I've enjoyed your contributions to the thread, and sorry if you feel some form of insult at the guide itself. Dark Armor was my second 50, and I couldn't have made it if it was "unplayable". But -ESPECIALLY- in CoV, where every other 40+ mission seems to drop an EB in your lap, and more and more mobs use tactics rarely seen blue side by Dark Armor scrappers, I can't reccomend the set at all.
That would be dishonest, and it's not something Im going to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
The majority of guides that I have read do not say never take a set or give it there full endorsement. What they do give is there knowledge of the set along with their experience with the set. They let the reader decide if it is for them or not. They do not try to make that decision for them. They tell the reader what to expect from the set, how to slot it and what powers are optional according to them. But they still do not endorse it or say never to chose the set.
When I first started playing this game I learned alot about this game from the forums by reading the guides here. They helped me decide for myself what AT's and sets that would be right for me. Since I am a very flexible I could use just about any AT or set. If you doubt me then look at the other guides here in this forum and you will see a guides that do just that.
When I read a guide I want to know how to get the most out of a set, not do not take it because it stinks. I know that I can make that decision for myself thank you. I want to learn if there are any special strageties for playing that set. I do not want to read about any bad experiences a player has with the set.
With that final statement are you saying that you are the only one that can take a DA brute to fifty.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because a majority believe A, doesn't mean A is the case.
[/ QUOTE ]
When it's a matter of describing the message delivered in written text, it does. It doesn't matter what the author intended, it matters what the author achieved. If people read the author's text regulawrly interpret it in a similar way then the simple fact is that the author's word choice and overall structure is delivering a patricular message.
Here are the messages I can find in this guide.
[*] "Don't ever play Dark Armor as a Brute." (Explicitly stated.)[*] "Dark Armor's mitigation is lower than any other set's." (Aggregated through attempt at illustration. Debatable.)[*] "Dark Amor for Brutes should receive dev attention because it's so bad." (Easy to infer from such strong assertions about its low performance.)[*] "Dark Armor is ineffective/pointless/useless" (Predictable condensation of the guide's message into chat messages with friends.)
[/ QUOTE ]
That list of conclusions is consisted of wilder leap after leap and just plain out wishing the guide says things it does not. Never does the guide once say "zomg Devs, plz help Dark Armor" because I don't believe by most standards, it needs "Dev Help." It's never said to be "Useless" and I actually say that several reasons to play the set is for challenge or concept. I actually said that Dark Armor is -fine- for concept or challenge purposes, that pretty much opposes the fact Im saying NEVER play a Dark Armor brute, and the same people complaining about my mitigation statements are the ones saying "Well Tier9s don't count! They're not fair!" and ignoring things like MaxHP buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Additionally: Reiraku is right to attempt to pull away the strawman arguement being attributed to the OP. I have no experience with /DA, so I don't know if his arguements are correct or incorrect, but one of the most common (and most flawed) attempts to disprove someone's arguement are to attribute things to them that they didn't say and then disprove them.
[/ QUOTE ]
What we're objecting to is not that the OP made these conclusions, but that he used "facts" we dispute to make it easy for a trusting reader to come to them. If you've ever wandered through the Suggestions Forum you'll find people asking questions about all sorts of things that sound like some CoH version of the "phone game," with the most bizzare-seeming misunderstandings of game mechanics that they heard third-hand. (At least some of them come and ask about them!) The last thing I want to see is this section, of all places, becoming a platform fostering those sorts of misconceptions.
[/ QUOTE ]
What misconceptions? You mean like misconceptions like guides that tout Dark Armor as the most survivable set in the game that don't factor in edurance usage, which is Dark Armor's weakest point, especially since it's reliant on more endurance than probably any other armor set? [Edit: Should add that Arcanaville does mention Dark Armor's endurance usage being higher than the other scrapper sets it's compared to, and that it can't perform at peak levels as a result of this, but the actual calculations used to demonstrate it's the most survivable don't factor in end cost.]
People keep talking about disputing the facts brought up in the guide, but there's little being said about most of the points brought up.
Gilfred tried to dispute the Energy Resistance being one of the weakest, with the statement that Tier 9's dont count. I played along with it, and agreed that if you don't count Tier 9's OR Max HP boosts, then the Energy Resistance weakness isn't as large.
I may have admitted it previously, Im admitting it again now, the fury loss from Oppressive Gloom/Cloak of Fear is overstated in the guide. It can be played around, and I failed to mention it in the guide.
[ QUOTE ]
What misconceptions? You mean like misconceptions like guides that tout Dark Armor as the most survivable set in the game that don't factor in edurance usage, which is Dark Armor's weakest point, especially since it's reliant on more endurance than probably any other armor set? [Edit: Should add that Arcanaville does mention Dark Armor's endurance usage being higher than the other scrapper sets it's compared to, and that it can't perform at peak levels as a result of this, but the actual calculations used to demonstrate it's the most survivable don't factor in end cost.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you wave your hands at the notion that this can be mitigated by slotting, obscurely stating that other sets could instead focus on slotting for more offense. That's not quantified, and proves nothing. My experience is based on the performance of a MA/DA Scrapper. Moreover, you refer fairly frequently to team performance of the sets, and while not every team contains a /Kin, one that does lets DA absolutely turn loose. Indeed, it wasn't until I was once boosted by a Kin that I truly had my eyes opened to how powerful the set was, as I survived - and defeated - a spawn that wiped out the rest of my team because I could fire DR more often and keep in endurance.
Because of that, I focused my build on strong endurance slotting of my attacks and greatly improved my overall end burn. Now with IOs the options are much more diverse and I can get all the endurance slotting I had and more with no meaningful sacrifice in accuracy, damage or recharge.
It's arguable that no armor set except possibly ELA or Invul benefits as much from IOs, because of all the toggles it has for them. Expensive? Possibly - it depends on what you go for. Even just "frankenslotting" the armors for DR/end is extremely attractive, but you can also easily go for +recovery/+end. Positional defense is also popular.
[ QUOTE ]
Never does the guide once say "zomg Devs, plz help Dark Armor" because I don't believe by most standards, it needs "Dev Help."
[/ QUOTE ]
I cannot accept that you would not condone that a set you would advise people to "never play" doesn't need help, or that, conversely, that anyone should advise that a set that doesn't need help should be a "never play" on the basis of factual performance metrics.
That simply doesn't line up. You're trying to play both sides of the fence here, and it's not flying.
[ QUOTE ]
It's never said to be "Useless" and I actually say that several reasons to play the set is for challenge or concept.
[/ QUOTE ]
For a great many people who play games like this, being the best and brightest is all it's about. This is the source of lots of advice you see in game about what sets people should and shouldn't take. It's incredibly naive of you to think that making the assertion that the set is only good for concept or challenge isn't tantamount to telling people it's a steaming heap of dung. Ergo: it's useless.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
For a great many people who play games like this, being the best and brightest is all it's about. This is the source of lots of advice you see in game about what sets people should and shouldn't take. It's incredibly naive of you to think that making the assertion that the set is only good for concept or challenge isn't tantamount to telling people it's a steaming heap of dung. Ergo: it's useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. As usual, your insight is spot on...and along with that insight comes the signature tenacity we have all come to know and love. Now that the discussion has finally reached the bottom line, there is nothing useful left to explore, and nothing to accomplish save to run the OP in circles or force him to further justify expressing his opinion. Slowly now...stop shaking the kitten...release the death grip...relax. Good boy.
[ QUOTE ]
My experience is based on the performance of a MA/DA Scrapper.
[/ QUOTE ]
STHU and GTHO mah Brute thread?
[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, you refer fairly frequently to team performance of the sets, and while not every team contains a /Kin, one that does lets DA absolutely turn loose. Indeed, it wasn't until I was once boosted by a Kin that I truly had my eyes opened to how powerful the set was, as I survived - and defeated - a spawn that wiped out the rest of my team because I could fire DR more often and keep in endurance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for supporting the fact the entire set is crutched by Dark Regeneration. 
Also, please check the original post for use of the terms team, and group. I don't see how I fairly frequently referred to it, when I used the term Team once, and Group none.
[ QUOTE ]
Because of that, I focused my build on strong endurance slotting of my attacks and greatly improved my overall end burn. Now with IOs the options are much more diverse and I can get all the endurance slotting I had and more with no meaningful sacrifice in accuracy, damage or recharge.
[/ QUOTE ]
Blah blah blah IOs make me great. Good for you?
[ QUOTE ]
It's arguable that no armor set except possibly ELA or Invul benefits as much from IOs, because of all the toggles it has for them. Expensive? Possibly - it depends on what you go for. Even just "frankenslotting" the armors for DR/end is extremely attractive, but you can also easily go for +recovery/+end. Positional defense is also popular.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its not even arguable. Dark Armor allows for slotting of Fear and Stun sets as well as one Defense set, 3 Resistance Sets, and a Heal set, and heck, a To-Hit buff set too. It does offer tons of options if you choose to start sinking the money into IO builds. More Challenge, or someone earlier mentioned, concept from Inventions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Never does the guide once say "zomg Devs, plz help Dark Armor" because I don't believe by most standards, it needs "Dev Help."
[/ QUOTE ]
I cannot accept that you would not condone that a set you would advise people to "never play" doesn't need help, or that, conversely, that anyone should advise that a set that doesn't need help should be a "never play" on the basis of factual performance metrics.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's natural in these types of games where there are multiple "set choices" that one has to be the lowest performer out of the box. In some cases, these choices pay off in the end game by exceeding their own limitations, but the problem with Dark Armor is that it never actually quite does that without serious effort on the part of the dark armor user, be it proper building and slotting, or handpicking a team to cover your multiple weak spots.
Sorry if you can't accept that Im personally able to say "This set is the weakest choice available" without it being "zomg devs, plz fix my set" but that sounds like a personal trust issue on your end.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's never said to be "Useless" and I actually say that several reasons to play the set is for challenge or concept.
[/ QUOTE ]
For a great many people who play games like this, being the best and brightest is all it's about. This is the source of lots of advice you see in game about what sets people should and shouldn't take. It's incredibly naive of you to think that making the assertion that the set is only good for concept or challenge isn't tantamount to telling people it's a steaming heap of dung. Ergo: it's useless.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that's what they want to take out of the guide, that's on them. What -is- the set good for that other sets don't provide?
Melee Control? Yes, mentioned that. Don't personally find it valuable, but I did mention it.
Fear Protection? This comes up, what, twice in the PVE game? There's a Tsoo boss that uses fear, that's the only thing I recall encountering.
Psionic Protection? Yes, the set provides it, but it's not the only set that does anymore, and other sets do almost as good a job at it, without giving up multiple weak spots as a trade.
Dark Regeneration? Hands down the most powerful self-heal in the game, like I said, six slot it and stick it under your arm, it's your crutch.
If there's anything else the set itself provides that no other armor secondary doesn't provide as well, how about you be the grand enlightening poobah and open my eyes?
[ QUOTE ]
Fear Protection? This comes up, what, twice in the PVE game? There's a Tsoo boss that uses fear, that's the only thing I recall encountering.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's also a recurring mayhem boss that will use spectral terror as well as the occasional LB Warden that will do the same, still fairly rare.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I see more people that haven't read it as that. Is it really that hard to say "Do you believe /DA is useless?" instead of just assuming that is what he meant? It definitely would have saved a couple of pages worth of pointless semantics.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict