Why you should never play a Dark Armor Brute.
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-12 18:02 in Player Guides
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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?
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The set requires more effort for more return. No one says its an easy set to play. But the maximum return deliverable by the set is a purely numerical issue, and has nothing to do with player skill or game environment. Only how hard it is to get it is.
Also, whenever someone says "despite the numbers..." I tend to want to remind them that while there exist people who evaluate powersets numerically only, I'm not one of them. I've played dark armor on a brute specifically from level 1 to level 50, and specifically played her in all aspects of the game, from soloing to tanking to PvP to end game content. Other people can have different experience from mine, but no one can reasonably claim better or superceding experience in terms of evaluating the set.
The set performs basically the way the numbers imply it does. Of course, if you run your numbers correctly (i.e. the same way the game engine does), it basically has to.
There are lots of ways to improve dark armor. There are even more ways to ruin the set. The performance is so good, I would rather the devs stay far, far, far away from it. On the list of things I would want the devs to look at, Brute Dark Armor isn't even in last place on it: its nowhere on it.
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Before I actually post any builds tell me now what sets that an Invul/EM tanker or a DM/DA brute can take that would increase resistance to energy. Not any that I know of, now I could be wrong though. Let's stick with the brutes for this post.
I will use Mid's numbers. Here is the unslotted energy resistance for all brute secondaries. No tier nine's at all.
Dark: 15%
Electric: 61%
Energy: 9.4% although it is balanced by having a 20.6% def versus energy
Fire: 22.5%
Invulnerability: 13.1% which could not be balanced by a measly 4.6% defense versus energy
Stone: 0% and gets a 12% defense versus energy. Like to know how that could be balanced in your eyes.
Willpower: 5.6% offset by a 9.8% defense versus energy.
So if we are to go by the resistance numbers then the player must avoid not only DA, but all other secondaries except fire and electric. But yet you talk about DA. Now even though that energy damage is common, why did the devs in your opinion short change all other brute secondaries as far as energy resistance?
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First, the "No Tier 9s" card is being pulled here, so I don't see where it's fair to these sets, especially, in particular, stone armor. That being said... We'll toss out Electric Armor, and Fire Armor, as they do already beat Dark's Energy Resistance.
Energy: 9.4% although it is balanced by having a 20.6% def versus energy
To calculate Energy Aura's damage taken versus Dark Armor's damage taken, let's use a basic experiment. Both sets take 100 attacks at the base accuracy of 1.0.
We'll use Arcanaville's Basic ToHit Formula, from their guide to defense.
NetToHit = Accuracy * (BaseToHit - Defense)
Using Energy Aura's defense numbers, this would mean
29.4 = 1 * 50% - 20.6
Rounding the NetToHit to 29, this would imply that out of 100 attacks, 29 would land. Let's not forget to take Energy Aura's resist either. This would drop the 100 damage attacks to being 90.6 points of damage.
90.6 * 29 = 2627.4 points of damage taken.
Dark Armor, to the same standard.
You did forget that Dark Armor has also, a 3.8 defense. This will make the NetToHit for Dark Armor 46.2. Rounding that to 46, this would imply that out of 100 attacks, 46 would land. Those 100 attacks would be doing 85 damage, due to Dark Armors Resistance.
85 * 46 = 3910 points of damage taken.
Now, this is a horribly simplistic way of looking at things, admittedly, and the sort of situation that doesn't come up in game. In Practice, Defense doesn't quite work out the same way. Im also -not- using Dark Armor's Cloak of Fear, with it's to hit debuff of 5 percent. To use that, we'd need to use Arcanaville's Advanced ToHit Formula.
NetToHit = (InherentAttackAccuracy) * (1 + AccuracyEnhancement) * [ BaseToHit + ToHitBuffs - ToHitDebuffs - (Defense - DefenseDebuffs) ]
Now, for this situation, we're going to assume the enemy attacking both sets has no ToHit Buffs, and not using any Defense Debuffs against the Dark Armor user, and the inherent attack accuracy is also 1.
41.2 = 1 * 1 * [50 + 0 - 5 - (3.8 - 0)]
Rounding the NetToHit to 41, this would mean 41 attacks out of 100 will hit the DA user from the source, at 85 points of damage.
41 * 85 = 3485 points of damage taken. Let's go ahead and keep this number in mind for the stone armor and Invuln checks as well. Those can be checked with the basic method, but Invuln will have multiple checks, due to the nature of invincibility. Now we're also assuming a situation where Cloak of Fear ALWAYS hits, which it does not, but we're also ignoring the fact of incoming DPS being less due to the Fear effect, and just treating it as X amount of damage taken after Y attacks. Oppressive Gloom would also help the Dark Armor Brute if against mobs that the stun would effect.
Invulnerability, at this same 100 attacks of 100 damage scale. We're factoring in the defense loss from Unyielding, else, the 4.6 defense would actually be higher.
45.4 = 1 * 50% - 4.6
We'll round the NetToHit down to 45, for 45 attacks out of 100 hitting, at 86.9 damage due to Invulns resistance.
Invulnerability winds up taking 3910.5 damage over the course of the attacks. Worse than Dark Armor with CoF up,almost equal to it, without.
But, Invincibility isn't so simple. You can actually get an increased Defense Buff, per mob in range of the power. Increasing it to 2 mobs, the defense bonus goes to 5.8, 3 it increases to 6.9, etc. It takes 6 targets to reach a 10.3 defense buff, which leaves net to hit at 39.7, which would leave the situation described with the invulnerability taking 3476 damage. So, it would take 6 mobs in melee range for Invince to match Dark Armor's incoming damage mitigation with resistances, debuffs, and ToHit Debuffs alone.
Oh, except one thing. Invulnerability can with an extra 40 percent Hitpoints as well, from Dull Pain. And we're not figuring in the regeneration rate due to that.
Stone Armor's pretty simple, it would be hit 38 attacks out of 100, with no resistance, for 3800 damage. Note that this is less damage than Dark Armor without Cloak Of Fear's ToHit Debuff figured in, and also, of course, Stone Armor gets to work with the extra 40 percent HP as well.
This leaves Willpower, which we'll go ahead and calculate the same way.
40.4 Net to Hit, round to 40 attacks out of 100 hitting, with the 100 damage reduced to 94.4, it winds up taking 3776 damage over the course of the 100 attacks. Less than Dark Armor without the Cloak of Fear calculation, but not by much. More than with the Cloak of Fear calculation. Oh. But Willpower also gets a permanent +20 percent HitPoints.
So, what does all of that crap above mean?
If you want to ignore Tier 9s, and +HP bonuses, Dark Armor's energy "hole" isn't really that much worse than any other set. I'm actually surprised, but to be honest, we're still pulling the "Tier 9s dont count for balance!" card to put Dark Armor on this level, and ignoring the impact of Fear and Stun from Dark Armor on the attacker, if those powers were used, and also of course, not figuring in the endurance costs from the above calculations.
But yes, if you want to ignore Tier 9s and +HP bonuses, then I'll concede that Dark Armor's energy resist isn't really that bad compared to Invuln, Stone, and Willpower.
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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?
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The set requires more effort for more return. No one says its an easy set to play. But the maximum return deliverable by the set is a purely numerical issue, and has nothing to do with player skill or game environment. Only how hard it is to get it is.
Also, whenever someone says "despite the numbers..." I tend to want to remind them that while there exist people who evaluate powersets numerically only, I'm not one of them. I've played dark armor on a brute specifically from level 1 to level 50, and specifically played her in all aspects of the game, from soloing to tanking to PvP to end game content. Other people can have different experience from mine, but no one can reasonably claim better or superceding experience in terms of evaluating the set.
The set performs basically the way the numbers imply it does. Of course, if you run your numbers correctly (i.e. the same way the game engine does), it basically has to.
There are lots of ways to improve dark armor. There are even more ways to ruin the set. The performance is so good, I would rather the devs stay far, far, far away from it. On the list of things I would want the devs to look at, Brute Dark Armor isn't even in last place on it: its nowhere on it.
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I don't want the Devs to look at Dark Armor at all either, actually. It's not so far underperforming that its unplayable, its just been my experience that of all the available sets, it's the worst.
Im curious, for the DA supporters. What exactly is this magical "more return" point? What is it that DA can do, that the other sets can't do with a proper build/loadout? Thats my main issue with the set. I keep hearing "Its capable of so much!" but I don't hear any real examples.
And Deus, if you're using nukes for your RSF run, you're pretty much invalidating yourself, and you know it. There's nothing DA can do with that nuke support that a team of 8 any other brutes can't.
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Im curious, for the DA supporters. What exactly is this magical "more return" point? What is it that DA can do, that the other sets can't do with a proper build/loadout? Thats my main issue with the set. I keep hearing "Its capable of so much!" but I don't hear any real examples.
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1. Its performance scales upward with spawn size faster than any other set. The jump in performance from solo to duo to three player teams (primarily due to dark regen, but also the auras) is very high, so the performance curve is much steeper. This makes it a very good tanking set vs numbers.
2. Its resistances/defenses are moderate, relative to its healing and defensive auras, which means it benefits more from external buffs, relative to most sets which can saturate buffing (probably only granite benefits more on average). No buff grants someone a heal (separate from regeneration buffs) but lots of buffs grant defense and resistance. Dark armor is more likely to benefit from a random collection of resistance buffs, defense buffs, and recharge buffs than most sets. And while under heavy recovery buffing, where everything can run constantly and at full speed, its extremely powerful.
3. It has the most diverse set of slotting options for inventions. That makes it simultaneously provide options for min/maxers, and concept builders that are looking for invention-based variety.
4. It has the best self-rez in the game. And statistically speaking, most normal players of the game do die occasionally. Soul transfer, as maligned a power as it is, can save the average team of average players from team wipes due to its mechanics.
5. On the red-side, having resistance to endurance drain is not a trivial form of protection.
As to what it can do that other sets can't do "with the proper build" that's a difficult question to answer, because it turns into a subjective build contest. But I can't think of any brute secondary that has significantly less weaknesses in performance than dark armor: I can't think of what I can't do with the set that all others can do. In a crowd, dark armor can deliver comparable performance to even granite: I've tanked the aggro limit of +3s with dark armor for extended periods of time in situations where even granite has a problem. At least until hasten runs out. Against one single AV-class target with no other targets around, granite definitely does better, and sets like Willpower and even Invuln probably do better when the damage is heavily smash/lethal. But those are situational advantages comparable to the ones that favor dark armor.
There is no "magical more return point" any more than there is one for Invuln, or Fiery Aura, or Willpower.
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A guide to the multiple and glaring weakspots in Dark Armor, and an assessment on why, despite any ideal numerical simulations, the set requires more effort for less return when compared to the majority of the brute secondaries?
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The set requires more effort for more return. No one says its an easy set to play. But the maximum return deliverable by the set is a purely numerical issue, and has nothing to do with player skill or game environment. Only how hard it is to get it is.
Also, whenever someone says "despite the numbers..." I tend to want to remind them that while there exist people who evaluate powersets numerically only, I'm not one of them. I've played dark armor on a brute specifically from level 1 to level 50, and specifically played her in all aspects of the game, from soloing to tanking to PvP to end game content. Other people can have different experience from mine, but no one can reasonably claim better or superceding experience in terms of evaluating the set.
The set performs basically the way the numbers imply it does. Of course, if you run your numbers correctly (i.e. the same way the game engine does), it basically has to.
There are lots of ways to improve dark armor. There are even more ways to ruin the set. The performance is so good, I would rather the devs stay far, far, far away from it. On the list of things I would want the devs to look at, Brute Dark Armor isn't even in last place on it: its nowhere on it.
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I don't want the Devs to look at Dark Armor at all either, actually. It's not so far underperforming that its unplayable, its just been my experience that of all the available sets, it's the worst.
Im curious, for the DA supporters. What exactly is this magical "more return" point? What is it that DA can do, that the other sets can't do with a proper build/loadout? Thats my main issue with the set. I keep hearing "Its capable of so much!" but I don't hear any real examples.
And Deus, if you're using nukes for your RSF run, you're pretty much invalidating yourself, and you know it. There's nothing DA can do with that nuke support that a team of 8 any other brutes can't.
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And it is posts like this that confuse me. How can you say that the set is not unplayable, but in your opinion it is the worst. Yet in the title of this thread you say you should never play one. How can a set be playable but still you should avoid it. That makes no sense. A set is either not playable and useless so you should avoid it or it is playable but like others have said it is an advanced set that is best used after you have played other sets. It cannot be both.
The whole purpose of the thread is to get players to avoid DA for brutes at the very least. And maybe at the most to get those playing it to stop. I think that with posts like this your guide should've been titled Why DA Brute Should not be your First Brute. I think you are missing the whole point of DA and more important is when you mix dark melee with it. Both together is like having a utility belt for your character. You not only have good attacks but good utility to back you up.
If you have ever read the DM/DA bible that I think is still here in this forum. The OP of the Guide says that those powersets are the most misunderstood. Of course this was written for scrappers, not brutes because this was before CoV.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
Ok, I have noticed a few things cropping up in this thread which... interest me.
Certain concepts are being touted as objective descriptors and facts whilst they appear to be subjective to me.
Examples:
What exactly is the Brute playstyle?
What exactly is 'Fighting continuously' through a mission?
Since these two, plus some others (don't feel like digging back through the thread to find them at the moment), appear to be subjective concepts rather than objective facts, I became curious.
I decided that a better way than bandying words about would be for me to show you how I play and you describe it to me in these subjective contexts so that I (and others) may better understand each other's positions and meanings.
This is a video (cut to 10 minutes due to Youtube not letting me post anything longer) of me running one of my Brutes.
Yes, she is dark armor and the toggles she is running are Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Death Shroud, and Oppresive Gloom.
Beyond that, I do not wish to influence your response by explaining things as I see them, so watch the video through and let me know what it says to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDyyQc6-0-o
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Ok, I have noticed a few things cropping up in this thread which... interest me.
Certain concepts are being touted as objective descriptors and facts whilst they appear to be subjective to me.
Examples:
What exactly is the Brute playstyle?
What exactly is 'Fighting continuously' through a mission?
Since these two, plus some others (don't feel like digging back through the thread to find them at the moment), appear to be subjective concepts rather than objective facts, I became curious.
I decided that a better way than bandying words about would be for me to show you how I play and you describe it to me in these subjective contexts so that I (and others) may better understand each other's positions and meanings.
This is a video (cut to 10 minutes due to Youtube not letting me post anything longer) of me running one of my Brutes.
Yes, she is dark armor and the toggles she is running are Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Death Shroud, and Oppresive Gloom.
Beyond that, I do not wish to influence your response by explaining things as I see them, so watch the video through and let me know what it says to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDyyQc6-0-o
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To everyone:
A picture speaks a thousand words, and this picture shows that DA is a very good set for Brutes. No problems with fury, because the entire time she stayed very close to max fury. Just only one death where she used her rez. I wonder just how many deaths would the other secondaries suffer compared to dark. If it is none then is just one extra death really that bad? Not at all, everyones experience with the brute secondaries will be different, as different as night and day in some cases.
The same holds true for the rest of the AT's.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
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Ok, I have noticed a few things cropping up in this thread which... interest me.
Certain concepts are being touted as objective descriptors and facts whilst they appear to be subjective to me.
Examples:
What exactly is the Brute playstyle?
What exactly is 'Fighting continuously' through a mission?
Since these two, plus some others (don't feel like digging back through the thread to find them at the moment), appear to be subjective concepts rather than objective facts, I became curious.
I decided that a better way than bandying words about would be for me to show you how I play and you describe it to me in these subjective contexts so that I (and others) may better understand each other's positions and meanings.
This is a video (cut to 10 minutes due to Youtube not letting me post anything longer) of me running one of my Brutes.
Yes, she is dark armor and the toggles she is running are Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Death Shroud, and Oppresive Gloom.
Beyond that, I do not wish to influence your response by explaining things as I see them, so watch the video through and let me know what it says to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDyyQc6-0-o
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To everyone:
A picture speaks a thousand words...
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It spoke quite a few to me.
1. lol faceplant on first spawn.
2. Higher res please, so we can see exactly what's going on.
3. We all know that a mission loaded with FAMILY mob types is a true test of merit.
Plus, of course, no mention of the build, or what sets have been sunk into it so it can achieve the mighty task of faceplanting to a Warhulk.
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This is easily the best guide I've seen thus far.
Why?
Because it gives me a comparison of the various sets, and explains the shortcomings in significant detail of a single set that I might be interested in.
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I disagree. The reason is that the OP allowed subjective bias to influence the attempt at analysis which he provided.
His results might match yours, but they don't match mine, and they don't match some people who I trust very much to apply rigorous and largely objective analysis and observation to this powerset.
As a result, I don't think it's a good guide at all. It's a nice opinion piece. That's not what this forum is supposed to be for. At least not without more clear warning to the reader. The very fact that the post contains numbers and comparisons to other sets obscures its subjective nature.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Ok, two things.
1) Haetron, question for you, why did I faceplant against the warhulk? And what would have been necassary to prevent it? Be as specific and detailed as possible.
2) Here is a new version of the video, I increased its size to the maximum Youtube allows (100 meg), so if you want better, well I guess I could start shortening it... let me know.
(It appears that Youtube is naturally degrading the video quality when it converts it, I don't know how to get around this issue)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiq5Ftqv7QM
As For build... I think thats another discussion, but I guess I will post my planned build. (she isn't fully IOed out yet).
The one thing I wish I could change is my patron, Black Scorpion powers really suck.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.30
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php
Umbra Tenebrae: Level 50 Technology Brute
Primary Power Set: Energy Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Barrage -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(3), Rope-Acc/Rchg(5), Rope-Acc/EndRdx(11)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), TtmC'tng-ResDam(15), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(48), S'fstPrt-ResKB(50)
Level 2: Energy Punch -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 4: Bone Smasher -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 6: Murky Cloud -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg(21), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), ImpArm-ResDam(50)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(11), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Aegis-Psi/Status(48)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Run-I(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(17)
Level 18: Total Focus -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Dark Regeneration -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(A), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(23), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(23), Numna-EndRdx/Rchg(34), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(43)
Level 24: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 26: Death Shroud -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(27), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(45)
Level 28: Whirling Hands -- Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(29), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(34), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(40), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(45)
Level 30: Stun -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(31), Rope-Acc/Stun(31), Rope-Acc/Stun/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Energy Transfer -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- HO:Endo(A), HO:Endo(36)
Level 38: Cloak of Darkness -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-EndRdx/Rchg(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(39), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Ksmt-ToHit+(46), Ksmt-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- TotHntr-Acc/Rchg(A), TotHntr-EndRdx/Immob(42), TotHntr-Acc/EndRdx(42), TotHntr-Acc/Immob/Rchg(42)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Def(A), Krma-ResKB(46)
Level 47: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 49: Soul Transfer -- Dsrnt-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
------------
[u]Set Bonuses:[u]
[u]Stupefy[u]
(Barrage)<ul type="square">[*] +2.5% Recovery[/list][u]Rope A Dope[u]
(Barrage)<ul type="square">[*] +6% Regeneration[/list][u]Titanium Coating[u]
(Dark Embrace)<ul type="square">[*] +MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 2.2%)[*] +18.1 (1.5%) HitPoints[/list][u]Steadfast Protection[u]
(Dark Embrace)<ul type="square">[*] +1.5% Recovery[*] +Knockback (Mag -4)[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Energy Punch)<ul type="square">[*] +MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 2.2%)[*] +13.6 (1.13%) HitPoints[*] +7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] +5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Bone Smasher)<ul type="square">[*] +MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 2.2%)[*] +13.6 (1.13%) HitPoints[*] +7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] +5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Impervium Armor[u]
(Murky Cloud)<ul type="square">[*] +2.5% Recovery[*] +1.88% Defense(Psionic)[*] +2.25% Max Max Endurance[*] +MezResist(Held) (Mag 2.75%)[/list][u]Aegis[u]
(Obsidian Shield)<ul type="square">[*] +5% RunSpeed[*] +1.575% Def( Fire, Cold)[*] +2.5% Debt Protection[*] +3% Resistance(Psionic), +MezResist(Confused) (Mag 20%), +MezResist(Held) (Mag 20%), +MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 20%), +MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 20%), +MezResist(Stun) (Mag 20%), +MezResist(Terrorized) (Mag 20%)[/list][u]Numina's Convalescence[u]
(Health)<ul type="square">[*] +12% Regeneration[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Total Focus)<ul type="square">[*] +MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 2.2%)[*] +13.6 (1.13%) HitPoints[*] +7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] +5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Cleaving Blow[u]
(Dark Regeneration)<ul type="square">[*] +1% Recovery[/list][u]Numina's Convalescence[u]
(Dark Regeneration)<ul type="square">[*] +12% Regeneration[*] +22.6 (1.88%) HitPoints[/list][u]Scirocco's Dervish[u]
(Death Shroud)<ul type="square">[*] +10% Regeneration[/list][u]Multi Strike[u]
(Death Shroud)<ul type="square">[*] +MezResist(Sleep) (Mag 1.65%)[/list][u]Cleaving Blow[u]
(Death Shroud)<ul type="square">[*] +1% Recovery[/list][u]Scirocco's Dervish[u]
(Whirling Hands)<ul type="square">[*] +10% Regeneration[*] +3.13% Resistance(Negative)[*] +9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[/list][u]Cleaving Blow[u]
(Whirling Hands)<ul type="square">[*] +1% Recovery[/list][u]Stupefy[u]
(Stun)<ul type="square">[*] +2.5% Recovery[/list][u]Rope A Dope[u]
(Stun)<ul type="square">[*] +6% Regeneration[/list][u]Crushing Impact[u]
(Energy Transfer)<ul type="square">[*] +MezResist(Immobilize) (Mag 2.2%)[*] +13.6 (1.13%) HitPoints[*] +7% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] +5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Luck of the Gambler[u]
(Cloak of Darkness)<ul type="square">[*] +10% Regeneration[*] +13.6 (1.13%) HitPoints[*] +9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[*] +7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)[/list][u]Kismet[u]
(Cloak of Darkness)<ul type="square">[*] +1.5% Recovery[/list][u]Trap of the Hunter[u]
(Web Envelope)<ul type="square">[*] +5% Enhancement(Immobilize)[*] +22.6 (1.88%) HitPoints[*] +9% Enhancement(Accuracy)[/list][u]Karma[u]
(Combat Jumping)<ul type="square">[*] +Knockback (Mag -4)[/list]
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</pre><hr />
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Ok, I have noticed a few things cropping up in this thread which... interest me.
Certain concepts are being touted as objective descriptors and facts whilst they appear to be subjective to me.
Examples:
What exactly is the Brute playstyle?
What exactly is 'Fighting continuously' through a mission?
Since these two, plus some others (don't feel like digging back through the thread to find them at the moment), appear to be subjective concepts rather than objective facts, I became curious.
I decided that a better way than bandying words about would be for me to show you how I play and you describe it to me in these subjective contexts so that I (and others) may better understand each other's positions and meanings.
This is a video (cut to 10 minutes due to Youtube not letting me post anything longer) of me running one of my Brutes.
Yes, she is dark armor and the toggles she is running are Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Death Shroud, and Oppresive Gloom.
Beyond that, I do not wish to influence your response by explaining things as I see them, so watch the video through and let me know what it says to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDyyQc6-0-o
[/ QUOTE ]
To everyone:
A picture speaks a thousand words...
[/ QUOTE ]
It spoke quite a few to me.
1. lol faceplant on first spawn.
2. Higher res please, so we can see exactly what's going on.
3. We all know that a mission loaded with FAMILY mob types is a true test of merit.
Plus, of course, no mention of the build, or what sets have been sunk into it so it can achieve the mighty task of faceplanting to a Warhulk.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh and you have never been beaten using any other brute secondary. Why I guess you can say you have been unbeaten in the PvE and maybe the PvP portions of the game since you first started playing huh. What I am saying is that if being beaten is like the unforgivable sin then all powersets would fall short there. Hell my main has five debt badges so I know about getting beaten.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
Technically, the Warhulk didnt defeat you. It was already dead when you died. What killed you was the Jagaer, who got in the shot after the warhulk exploded as it died and took a good chunk of health with it.
It could have been prevented by taking a simple green inspiration in my mind, since dark regen was about 3 seconds from recharging, and there were only 3 mobs left in the group. Also, simply not attacking a moment while the warhulk was stunned would have allowed you the necessary time for dark regen to recharge. The warhulk was stunned anyways.
In either case, the fact that you died, was not because of some defeceit or flaw in Dark Armor, wouldn't you agree Umbra?
Also of note. Constant fury the entire time by the end of the second mob group? Yeah, I noticed that too. Wonder what you're doing wrong?
I thought you couldnt build fury with a /DA brute...well at least thats the impression the OP seems to be under?
<RtOP>
[ QUOTE ]
And Deus, if you're using nukes for your RSF run, you're pretty much invalidating yourself, and you know it. There's nothing DA can do with that nuke support that a team of 8 any other brutes can't.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, actually Im not invalidating anything haetron. I challenge you to find an instance of a single RSF team that has EVER been formed on these boards made up of any 8 members of a single AT that did not at least use one of the most commonly used temp powers.
Using a single bio nuke for the +Regen most surely does NOT invalidate the metric.
It has long been a proven fact that on a heavily buffed team, its in fact Shivans that contribute the most, and in fact outdamage the players who summoned them by a large majority. Shivans are one of the biggest factors along with stacking vengeance to the normal completion strategies of most RSF teams on live.
Nukes are even less of an impact. If you thought I meant chemical burn nukes, you are mistaken.
There won't be any damage done to the AVs outside the source of the players themselves directly.
Also, I challenge ANY other power-set combination of Brutes to do the same thing. You make it sound so simple, yet I have never heard any thread or topic mentioned about a successful all-brute RSF. If it's so simple a task that any armor set could do it, please provide a link to the post containing proof that it has happened.
I'll go ahead and let you know that you won't find one, becuase not every other power sets brutes have provide a mechanic that would come close to providing a team with a chance to win.
8 /stone Brutes couldn't do it. People have already tried.
Saying that the use of Biological mutagen warbug nukes invalidates the accomplishment, smacks of more intellectual dishonesty. Sorry, but you're going to come up well short of your goal of trying to marginalize this accomplishment if you try and use that as your only argument against it.
[ QUOTE ]
I thought you couldnt build fury with a /DA brute...well at least thats the impression the OP seems to be under?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like for you to point out where the OP said one couldn't build fury using /DA. I recall him saying that fury generation wasn't as fast with /DA, but nothing saying it couldn't be done.
As for the video, there's a few things I'd like to note as to what could have helped improve your performance where other sets would not have had as much of an issue.
The biggest problem you faced was the alpha burst of a new mob. This is a given with /DA's lower resists. It also makes it more recognizable how much reliance /DA has on Dark Regeneration. This can make spawn to spawn chains risky if one is not at peak condition. A secondary with higher resists wouldn't have had as much of an issue with this.
I noticed that you were very endurance light on your attack chains, with not as many ET's and TF's as would have been allowed. Your build seems to show a considerable amount of IO use (how much is there versus how much you planned for is unknown) including one of the biggest factors, the KB IO in place of acrobatics. In a standard SO build, or generic IO build, how would your endurance have held up? Undoubtedly, the addition of acrobatics would have put a fairly large dent in your blue bar, and a more endurance intensive attack chain would have caused an increase in kills per minute. It didn't seem like this would have been an option for you, as it would have bottomed you out in relatively short order. The capability to eliminate enemies faster without worrying about your endurance would have increased your survivability greatly.
To date, I have seen this same mission run on a six person spawn by an EM/Elec, EM/EA, and Fire/Stone brute with no outside assistance. If a four-person spawn caused an EM/DA problems, then it does not show favorably on the build itself.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
- QR -
I find it extremely ironic that, in order to truly refute a guide that aims to keep everyone from playing Dark Armor in the first place, we have to roll up Dark Armor Brutes. Kind of curious to see how many were rolled up in direct response to this guide.
And actually, what I am most curious to see is datamining that can show, rather conclusively, that Dark Armor Brutes faceplant abnormally more often than any other types of Brutes. Otherwise, I'm much more inclined to think that Dark Armor 'sucks' due to the typical Brute playstyle not meshing well with the set, and not an actual deficiency in the set itself.
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually Im not invalidating anything haetron. I challenge you to find an instance of a single RSF team that has EVER been formed on these boards made up of any 8 members of a single AT that did not at least use one of the most commonly used temp powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, by using temps that allow any all-AT LRSF a successful completion, you're going to prove that /DA is superior? Hell, even an All-Stalker team completed the LRSF using nukes.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I challenge ANY other power-set combination of Brutes to do the same thing. You make it sound so simple, yet I have never heard any thread or topic mentioned about a successful all-brute RSF. If it's so simple a task that any armor set could do it, please provide a link to the post containing proof that it has happened.
[/ QUOTE ] All brute LRSF
This was done on the Liberty server, and is not even the first completed All Brute LRSF.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I have noticed a few things cropping up in this thread which... interest me.
Certain concepts are being touted as objective descriptors and facts whilst they appear to be subjective to me.
Examples:
What exactly is the Brute playstyle?
What exactly is 'Fighting continuously' through a mission?
Since these two, plus some others (don't feel like digging back through the thread to find them at the moment), appear to be subjective concepts rather than objective facts, I became curious.
I decided that a better way than bandying words about would be for me to show you how I play and you describe it to me in these subjective contexts so that I (and others) may better understand each other's positions and meanings.
This is a video (cut to 10 minutes due to Youtube not letting me post anything longer) of me running one of my Brutes.
Yes, she is dark armor and the toggles she is running are Dark Embrace, Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield, Combat Jumping, Death Shroud, and Oppresive Gloom.
Beyond that, I do not wish to influence your response by explaining things as I see them, so watch the video through and let me know what it says to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDyyQc6-0-o
[/ QUOTE ]
To everyone:
A picture speaks a thousand words...
[/ QUOTE ]
It spoke quite a few to me.
1. lol faceplant on first spawn.
2. Higher res please, so we can see exactly what's going on.
3. We all know that a mission loaded with FAMILY mob types is a true test of merit.
Plus, of course, no mention of the build, or what sets have been sunk into it so it can achieve the mighty task of faceplanting to a Warhulk.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh and you have never been beaten using any other brute secondary. Why I guess you can say you have been unbeaten in the PvE and maybe the PvP portions of the game since you first started playing huh. What I am saying is that if being beaten is like the unforgivable sin then all powersets would fall short there. Hell my main has five debt badges so I know about getting beaten.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think he's saying it's kinda pathetic for a fully IO'd out EM/DA to get clobbered by a four man spawn of easy critters. I'd agree with that. My Stalker (fully IO'd, of course) can take out a spawn twice that size in near complete safety.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually Im not invalidating anything haetron. I challenge you to find an instance of a single RSF team that has EVER been formed on these boards made up of any 8 members of a single AT that did not at least use one of the most commonly used temp powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
The closest you'll find will probably be this run of an all corr LRSF. No nukes, and only one shivan in the last mission with 7 players.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually Im not invalidating anything haetron. I challenge you to find an instance of a single RSF team that has EVER been formed on these boards made up of any 8 members of a single AT that did not at least use one of the most commonly used temp powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, by using temps that allow any all-AT LRSF a successful completion, you're going to prove that /DA is superior? Hell, even an All-Stalker team completed the LRSF using nukes.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I challenge ANY other power-set combination of Brutes to do the same thing. You make it sound so simple, yet I have never heard any thread or topic mentioned about a successful all-brute RSF. If it's so simple a task that any armor set could do it, please provide a link to the post containing proof that it has happened.
[/ QUOTE ] All brute LRSF
This was done on the Liberty server, and is not even the first completed All Brute LRSF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not think that anyone is trying to say that dark is superior, but in the same breath it is not totally useless either.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, actually Im not invalidating anything haetron. I challenge you to find an instance of a single RSF team that has EVER been formed on these boards made up of any 8 members of a single AT that did not at least use one of the most commonly used temp powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, by using temps that allow any all-AT LRSF a successful completion, you're going to prove that /DA is superior? Hell, even an All-Stalker team completed the LRSF using nukes.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I challenge ANY other power-set combination of Brutes to do the same thing. You make it sound so simple, yet I have never heard any thread or topic mentioned about a successful all-brute RSF. If it's so simple a task that any armor set could do it, please provide a link to the post containing proof that it has happened.
[/ QUOTE ] All brute LRSF
This was done on the Liberty server, and is not even the first completed All Brute LRSF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not think that anyone is trying to say that dark is superior, but in the same breath it is not totally useless either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, the OP didn't state /DA as useless, yet some have no problem attributing that to him.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
I think he's saying it's kinda pathetic for a fully IO'd out EM/DA to get clobbered by a four man spawn of easy critters. I'd agree with that. My Stalker (fully IO'd, of course) can take out a spawn twice that size in near complete safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
Remember the player did say that his brute is not fully IO'd. You see only the devs could tell if DA brutes suffer more defeats than other brute secondaries. Only the devs would be able to tell if dark armor is underperforming as far as brutes are concerned. As far as your stalker is concerned you could be a better player you know.
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
No, actually Im not invalidating anything haetron. I challenge you to find an instance of a single RSF team that has EVER been formed on these boards made up of any 8 members of a single AT that did not at least use one of the most commonly used temp powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, by using temps that allow any all-AT LRSF a successful completion, you're going to prove that /DA is superior? Hell, even an All-Stalker team completed the LRSF using nukes.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I challenge ANY other power-set combination of Brutes to do the same thing. You make it sound so simple, yet I have never heard any thread or topic mentioned about a successful all-brute RSF. If it's so simple a task that any armor set could do it, please provide a link to the post containing proof that it has happened.
[/ QUOTE ] All brute LRSF
This was done on the Liberty server, and is not even the first completed All Brute LRSF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not think that anyone is trying to say that dark is superior, but in the same breath it is not totally useless either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, the OP didn't state /DA as useless, yet some have no problem attributing that to him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why say never use something that is useful, unless he is implying that it is useless. It is that word never that is the whole point of the thread and is what is bothering me. I still say that this thread should've been titled Why Dark Armor Should not be your First Brute. Or he could've suggested that before playing a dark armor brute to play a dark armor scrapper. I have no doubt that dark armor has it problems. Heck all stalker primaries that are not EM are paled in comparison beside it (as I have seen here in the forums). If true then does that mean the only stalkers that should exist in the game are EM? What is there going to be a guide that says if you do not play the FoTM build you will get owned in both PvE and PvP?
Ebony Fists: Level 50 DM/Regen Scrapper, Gloom Piston Robotics/Dark mastermind level 34, QueenFireMare: Level 34 Fire blaster (pure fire),
Actually, you'd have to include DM in with said stalker primaries as well as EM. And if one looks at the threads inquiring as such, yes that is exactly what people are saying in regards to stalkers.
All that aside, at what point does the OP say that one should not take /DA as a secondary as it is useless? He says that it's generally weaker than other secondaries with a number of holes and will be more difficult, but never does he say it is useless. I think it's more a matter of people taking offense to what they feel he is implying as opposed to what he is saying.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
All that aside, at what point does the OP say that one should not take /DA as a secondary as it is useless?
[/ QUOTE ]
Here:
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The goal is to prevent anyone from ever considering playing the set for any reason than concept, or the fact they -want- the game to be difficult.
[/ QUOTE ]
and here:
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If you, after reading the guide, still have a desire to play Dark Armor, please post any questions and I will try to convince you why this is a bad idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
and here:
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, when referring to Dark Armor as overall weak and [u]ineffective[u] for Brutes, you have to look at the powers available to the Brute in question.
[/ QUOTE ]
And that's just in the OP.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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No shivans. Yes nukes and other temps. If its as successful as indications, were going to try the MoRSF criteria.
Which will mean no stacked veng, because of no deaths criteria, and no other temps either.