Discussion: Issue 11 Closed Beta
By
Angry_Citizen,
Posted on: 2007-10-09 10:27 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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The very concept of "fair" never even enters into it; efficiency is the name of the game here. Because they hold a closed beta, and have a proven stable of testers to rely upon as a group, we get issues in amazingly short spans of time.
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No sir. You are wrong. Community is the name of the game here. That's what this short of thing should be about - getting people involved. However, it is not so.
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Absolutly and unequivocably wrong; community is the name of the game when you consider the live servers, and only them. For a Beta Test? the product wins, by default, because nothing else is even in the race.
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Yes, I understand your oft-repeated point about it being a good idea to have the proven, veteran testers participate each time. However, if those people are as necessary as you make them out to be then put them on the payroll (as someone else suggested).
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Which costs money. Money that has to come from somewhere. That would mean either (a) less content for us all, or (b) higher monthly fees for us all.
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Instead of being on test for 2-3 months, we're likely to see a 5-6 wqeek testing cycle.
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Again (as has been pointed out, I believe), you have no proof that this is the case. And no, your use of the term "likely" does not preclude my stating that you have no proof. Were you around for the release of Issue 2? Now there was an issue that could have benefited from a lot more testing. Every issue release since then has been a breeze by comparison.
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History indicates otherwise. Since they've begun using a closed re-beta, the test time for each issue has been MUCH shorter, and the issues have had FAR fewer bugs remaining once they do actually go live.
Be glad I'm not the one callig the shots: you'd be seeing your name pinned to the bottom of the list, for putting "the players and the community" above "the product being tested".
Then again, I'm just a to-the-point [censored] like that, I guess.
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I think quite a few probably. I have a friend who got into closed beta because she and other PvPers do their thing in test quite a bit.
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Exactly, just because they are on the Test Server doesnt mean they are actually 'testing' anything.
[/ QUOTE ]odd to say that, given the number crunching nature of pvp, i would say that pvpers can be some of the most intense play testers(not always are, but can be). pve is relatively forgiving, high end pvpers are generally so closely matched that they have to eek out a few points of damage and mitigation to get over people of the same skill level. you had best beleive that theya re right now crunching the hell out of each debuff/buff set right now ,if any have dropped, beause they need to see how to spec out countermeasures. i know we have this view that all pvp'ers are rude evil 14 year olds who cant spell, but you might be surprised how smart one has to be to look that stupid.
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History indicates otherwise. Since they've begun using a closed re-beta, the test time for each issue has been MUCH shorter, and the issues have had FAR fewer bugs remaining once they do actually go live.
Be glad I'm not the one callig the shots: you'd be seeing your name pinned to the bottom of the list, for putting "the players and the community" above "the product being tested".
Then again, I'm just a to-the-point [censored] like that, I guess.
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Why do keep on insisting on this?
You have no concrete evidence that it is the testers themselves, rather than the process that is resulting in the smoother releases.
One thing does not prove the other.
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History indicates otherwise. Since they've begun using a closed re-beta, the test time for each issue has been MUCH shorter, and the issues have had FAR fewer bugs remaining once they do actually go live.
Be glad I'm not the one callig the shots: you'd be seeing your name pinned to the bottom of the list, for putting "the players and the community" above "the product being tested".
Then again, I'm just a to-the-point [censored] like that, I guess.
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Why do keep on insisting on this?
You have no concrete evidence that it is the testers themselves, rather than the process that is resulting in the smoother releases.
One thing does not prove the other.
[/ QUOTE ]you have no concrete evidence it dosent, and he does have inductive evidence that the 3 issues that have been bug tested with closed beta have come off test faster and with fewer bugs than the issues prior. that is not absolute proof, we cant have any proof withought access to the datamining tools the devs have, but from all appearences, issues with closed betas have come out faster and with less bugs. its reasonable to infer from that that closed betas are having a positive effect, and that at least some of the repeat beta testers are finding those show stopping bugs that popped up at, say the launch of issue 7 when we were randomly dropped every time we exited any doors. we work witht he best evidence we have, please post your evidence that the closed beta testers are not doing their job.
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History indicates otherwise. Since they've begun using a closed re-beta, the test time for each issue has been MUCH shorter, and the issues have had FAR fewer bugs remaining once they do actually go live.
Be glad I'm not the one callig the shots: you'd be seeing your name pinned to the bottom of the list, for putting "the players and the community" above "the product being tested".
Then again, I'm just a to-the-point [censored] like that, I guess.
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Why do keep on insisting on this?
You have no concrete evidence that it is the testers themselves, rather than the process that is resulting in the smoother releases.
One thing does not prove the other.
[/ QUOTE ]you have no concrete evidence it dosent, and he does have inductive evidence that the 3 issues that have been bug tested with closed beta have come off test faster and with fewer bugs than the issues prior. that is not absolute proof, we cant have any proof withought access to the datamining tools the devs have, but from all appearences, issues with closed betas have come out faster and with less bugs. its reasonable to infer from that that closed betas are having a positive effect, and that at least some of the repeat beta testers are finding those show stopping bugs that popped up at, say the launch of issue 7 when we were randomly dropped every time we exited any doors. we work witht he best evidence we have, please post your evidence that the closed beta testers are not doing their job.
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When did I ever say I was against the idea of a closed beta? Answer, I haven't. I'm not disputing it's helpful.
What I am disputing is the idea that these same people are so utterly necessary to the process. I have no concrete evidence, and I have even stated that should any be presented, I would eat my words.
The people (and you are one of them) that are insisting the same group remain ad nauseum have nothing but the extremely flimsy assumption that since the releases have been smoother, it is due entirely to the testers, rather than the devs developing a more efficient process as well as bug handling procedures.
Given the stance of the pro-same group people, would you also say that since they are so necessary to the game's continued development, that the game itself would collapse without them blessing us with their presence? No? Then they aren't necessary to continue to be in the closed door process. If you said yes, then heaven help us should they decide to leave...
no, really i could not care less really, id like to get ina closed beta myself, but i also realize that thus far the tack they have used has produced good results, so i cant argue with it on any rational level. I do, however, trust cryptic to be smart enough to datamine the feedback and know that some of the testers are really good at finding bugs, and should be invited back each and every time. Its not a flimsy assumption, its the only evidence we have to go on, If this is the same criteria they have used before(keep in mind that before the devs were adamant about not telling us the criteria..wonder why?), then it has resulted in 3 good launches, thats not a flimsy assumption, its an irrefutable fact, what is conjuncture is how many of the repeat beta testers are killer bug coders, and how many are nice fluff, thats a question neither you or I know the answer to, we are both speculating.
my speculation, however is based on easily observable things, and yours thus far has been mostly based on appeals to ideas of "chosen ones" and, recently, a group of guffawing old beta testers talking about beta and making unchosen ones feel left out. I mean really man, your stuff gets more outlandish with each accusation. next you will be claiming that the beta testers lounge about on golden sofas eating grapes peeled by buxom developers (i understand posi is pretty darn buxom) and mocking the poor unwashed masses while they play a fully bug tested issue 12 on a special server that runs extra fast by leeching fps from grandville, reality check yourself ,man.
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no, really i could not care less really, id like to get ina closed beta myself, but i also realize that thus far the tack they have used has produced good results, so i cant argue with it on any rational level. I do, however, trust cryptic to be smart enough to datamine the feedback and know that some of the testers are really good at finding bugs, and should be invited back each and every time. Its not a flimsy assumption, its the only evidence we have to go on, If this is the same criteria they have used before(keep in mind that before the devs were adamant about not telling us the criteria..wonder why?), then it has resulted in 3 good launches, thats not a flimsy assumption, its an irrefutable fact, what is conjuncture is how many of the repeat beta testers are killer bug coders, and how many are nice fluff, thats a question neither you or I know the answer to, we are both speculating.
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*rubs forehead*
Once again, you.
Just.
Don't.
Get.
It.
The fact that the launches have been smooth is not indicitive of the overall skills of the group of players. You guys are trying to connect things that may in fact, not be connected at all.
If I said that this rock I am holding keeps tigers away, and that there are no tigers around is proof that the rock works. Nevermind the fact that I live in the Midwest of the United States. One thing does not prove the other. This is the same.
Edit - And you realize don't you, that by keeping the same people in there, the chances of you actually getting in are even slimmer right?
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my speculation, however is based on easily observable things, and yours thus far has been mostly based on appeals to ideas of "chosen ones" and, recently, a group of guffawing old beta testers talking about beta and making unchosen ones feel left out. I mean really man, your stuff gets more outlandish with each accusation. next you will be claiming that the beta testers lounge about on golden sofas eating grapes peeled by buxom developers (i understand posi is pretty darn buxom) and mocking the poor unwashed masses while they play a fully bug tested issue 12 on a special server that runs extra fast by leeching fps from grandville, reality check yourself ,man.
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Hyperbole and strawmen. You cannot construct a real argument so you resort to exaggerating the things I have said to the point of ludicrousness.
It is not getting more 'outlandish' as I have maintained the same stance from the start, nor have I asked for anything untoward.
Edit ^2 - I have not asked for anything extreme. Just two things: 1) A complete swappage of testers for 1 (one, single, uno, ichi, I would prefer for every Issue, but this can at least prove or disprove the theory) Issue to see if it's the process or the testers that makes the difference; and 2) access (threads are locked but the non-chosen can at least see the evolution of the features) to the Closed Beta forums once Closed Beta is over. Neither of which is onerous to the extreme.
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If you haven't seen the posts that have followed the closed betas whenever someone suggests something, it is invariably answered with a 'We thought of that in closed beta, but said no' by the players who were in the closed beta.
Edit - Regardless, I'm done. By all means, continue to believe that these people are the sole things standing between us and the servers crashing to the ground. And yes, I realize that's hyperbolic, but hey, if you guys can try it on my arguments... *shrug*
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Once again, you.
Just.
Don't.
Get.
It.
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QFT but not for who you were aiming it at.
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The fact that the launches have been smooth is not indicitive of the overall skills of the group of players. You guys are trying to connect things that may in fact, not be connected at all.
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And you are trying to DISconnect things with no reason to do so, no reason to even ponder it, except to further your own selfish goals.
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If I said that this rock I am holding keeps tigers away, and that there are no tigers around is proof that the rock works. Nevermind the fact that I live in the Midwest of the United States. One thing does not prove the other. This is the same.
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Better. Go somewhere there ARE tigers, and build a little treehouse next to a watering hole they're known to frequent. Build a fence around the watering hole, too; does the reduced incidence of tigers at the watering hole HAVE to be because of the fence?
No - could be becuse of the scent of man. OR the sound and noice of construction. Or the inevitable reduction of undergrowth due to same. Or, maybe you chased off all the GAME, and the tigers are hunting elsewhere.
Nonetheless, is it somehow unreasonable to point to the fence, and say "there's why I ain't got tigers on my front porch every morning" ...? No, I submit that it is in fact a very reasonable thing to say.
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Edit - And you realize don't you, that by keeping the same people in there, the chances of you actually getting in are even slimmer right?
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So what? Y'see, I don't care - not truly care - wether I ever get into a closed beta for an Issue. BEcause, once again ... it's not about me ... it's about the product being tested.
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I have not asked for anything extreme. Just two things: 1) A complete swappage of testers for 1 (one, single, uno, ichi, I would prefer for every Issue, but this can at least prove or disprove the theory) Issue [...]
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You contradict yourself. That is extreme, and as I have stated previously - for having proposed such a thing, you should consider myself in total, implacable opposition to the totality of your idea(s).
I'd love to get in on the closed beta.
Whats this thread for?
Duel blades = low damage slow activation junk.
Indom Will is basically invul with quick recovery & fast healing which I like but no heal, youll need aidself.
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"A coward dies many times before their death, the valiant taste death but once." - William Shakespeare
Learn it... OWN IT!
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Whats this thread for?
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Dark_one to complain about how unfair it is that he isn't in beta because he never bothers to login to test.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Ok, guys, a few things some people may be forgetting accidentally or on purpose:
Time is Money. (If anyone doesnt agree with this, the rest wont make sense. Devs gotta get paid, and all wages are, in the end, time based.)
It takes time to get people on the right page as to how to test, and how to test so that Devs can use their time most efficiently for this platform.
Time that is better spent on Testing, not training, or correcting, or coddling.
And it was said before, sarcastically, something like the only qualifications Beta testers currently have is that they can follow directions. DUH! And hey, following directions is not a trivial skill, in case that was also overlooked. People get paid Big Bucks to write directions that people will follow! If you want to do something with your Imagination, try art or writing, very respectable vocations. Beta Testing is not for that!
If you REALLY want to be a Beta tester, (work for no money, btw) heres a thought:
Send in your resume, stipulate your qualifications, and that youre only looking to be a tester. Then, if and when youre offered a spot, quit/take vacation from school/your job for a week, and stay up all day and night *Testing* (not playing, mind you, that is NOT what closed Beta is for!)
That would involve doing things repeatedly and logging all the results in spreadsheets, for proof, documenting your methods, consolidating all the data in a report, and submitting it in a timely fashion. Now Im not saying all the testers do this, though I know that some DO, because Ive seen it on the boards (Memphis Bill is an example that comes to mind), but if you want to get the best chances of how to get into the beta test, here it is, imho.
I agree that community is NOT what Beta Test is for. It is to get the software to run the best it can, within time constraints. Theyre looking for serious problems with the software, and its better for a small group to do it.
I am continually surprised that people can be so selfish as to have no patience for the work that needs to be done. IT is WORK for NO MONEY PEOPLE! Go to your schools/jobs/etc, earn your very own money, and let the people doing this stuff exist in peace!
Let them do the work, keep your blasted pants on, and theyll eventually release it to Live Beta. Then you can all go on about how stupid the katanas look, or how Willpower is the worst set ever, or on and on and on.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Duel blades = low damage slow activation junk.
Indom Will is basically invul with quick recovery & fast healing which I like but no heal, youll need aidself.
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Dual. There's two of them. Your fighting style isn't going to consist of walking 10 paces, turning and firing.
Sorry, pet peeve.
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Duel blades = low damage slow activation junk.
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Unless you're in the beta - and just disclosed information you were sworn to secrecy over, in which case, kiss buh-bye to ever beta'ing again - you have no knowledge of the speed or damage levels associated with Dual Blades.
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Indom Will is basically invul with quick recovery & fast healing which I like but no heal, youll need aidself.
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Super Reflexes has no self-heal, and my g/f does just fine on her claws/SR catgirl scrapper.
Further, will does have a self-heal. Sort of: RISE TO THE CHALLENGE, which provides +regeneration boosts per enemy, up to 10 of them, in melee range of you.
It also has Fast Healing, which is more +regen. Pick up Health and Stamina, and Will is going to be a seocnd "never worry about downtime" set. Just like I play my /Regen scrapper, actually ... I very rarely trigger Dull Pain or Reconstruction. Integration, Fast Healing, and Health are enough for most things. AVs, EBs, or multi-Boss fights warrant an IH click, but even then, I rarely need the self-heals.
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Whats this thread for?
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Dark_one to complain about how unfair it is that he isn't in beta because he never bothers to login to test.
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I wouldn't say that's the only reason because I know someone (who I will not name) that mentioned being in the closed beta the other night while teaming and they made mention of having to install the TS because they had not been on it since I4.
There may be a group of people that are consistently chosen, but there are also another random group of people that aren't consistently chosen.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Is this the thread where I'm supposed to post if I want to be in the Issue 11 closed Beta?
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All that leaves for us to discuss, I must sadly agree, is the selection process. And I agree if could maybe be improved. But no act of tossing out the current, established pool of testers is an "improvement" IMO, so any idea that starts from there, I would have to oppose.
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Why?
What is so bloody special about these people that they need to be included in this and any future testing?
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Proven track record. I9-->I10-->i11 has been a faster process than ever before, and partof that is due to the greater intensity and focus of testing in the Closed Beta stage.
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You cannot say, with any degree of accuracy that the testers themselves have proven anything other than they can follow instructions.
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And you're trying to say there's no benefit in having not to endlessly repeat those instructions and make sure people are up to speed? Sorry, based on my experiences, I'll disagree. There's some new people in each test, but the more new people there are, the more disorganized things are, and the slower things go. People who already know where to look for instructions, people who know where to tell the smalle percentage of new people where to find info, and people who have experience in reporting things in the ways we've been told provide useful info all make things faster, and increase the amount of good info flowing around.
Each beta has been going more quickly and more smoothly, despite the fact that in many ways the new material has been more ambitious each time. There's no way to directly quantify it, but trying to say that the pool of experienced testers doesn't have much to do with it is downright ridiculous.
We're not saying these people are the only people. However these people are the ones that have shown they can do it, and in that case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Everyone gets to play soon enough. In the long run it doesn't matter which half of which percentage of the population gets in early, except that changing things completely means added headaches for the people administrating, and less time to get good work done.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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History indicates otherwise. Since they've begun using a closed re-beta, the test time for each issue has been MUCH shorter, and the issues have had FAR fewer bugs remaining once they do actually go live.
Be glad I'm not the one callig the shots: you'd be seeing your name pinned to the bottom of the list, for putting "the players and the community" above "the product being tested".
Then again, I'm just a to-the-point [censored] like that, I guess.
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Why do keep on insisting on this?
You have no concrete evidence that it is the testers themselves, rather than the process that is resulting in the smoother releases.
One thing does not prove the other.
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Pax_Arcana is right. Since they have started closed beta testing there have been far far fewer bugs in the game at each issue release. As a college student of game software development you can not convince me that it is a coincidence.
Weapon Alpha/Logan Omega - Scrapper/Stalker - Lvl 50(+3)/23
Dont under estimate a stalker - "What you can't see will kill you ..." SnakeSniper
Thanatos Omega - Stalker - Lvl 50(+1)
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After every closed beta so far, there has been a completely insufferable smugness from the participants. They constantly drop the 'back in closed beta...' line in pretty much anything dealing with the Issue, as if they are the end-all, be-all of the concern/question. It comes down to 'us', the non-chosen, and 'them' the chosen.
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Now youre just being stereotypical. I was on the closed beta for I10, while I couldnt share any of my experiences I was not smug about it. Also on that note they do not always choose the same people for the beta testing. Hence an earlier post that I am not in this beta test.
Weapon Alpha/Logan Omega - Scrapper/Stalker - Lvl 50(+3)/23
Dont under estimate a stalker - "What you can't see will kill you ..." SnakeSniper
Thanatos Omega - Stalker - Lvl 50(+1)
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No. Closed beta has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with community, except that community is where they can get willing and hopefully educated and/or capable testers for free.
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Grinnz
You are ABSOLUTELY right. Closed testing has nothing to do with a community.
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No sir. You are wrong. Community is the name of the game here. That's what this short of thing should be about - getting people involved. However, it is not so.
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Down_Incognito
You are only partly right. Yes CoX are community games however; efficiency is more important than community in closed beta testing environments.
Weapon Alpha/Logan Omega - Scrapper/Stalker - Lvl 50(+3)/23
Dont under estimate a stalker - "What you can't see will kill you ..." SnakeSniper
Thanatos Omega - Stalker - Lvl 50(+1)
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History indicates otherwise. Since they've begun using a closed re-beta, the test time for each issue has been MUCH shorter, and the issues have had FAR fewer bugs remaining once they do actually go live.
Be glad I'm not the one callig the shots: you'd be seeing your name pinned to the bottom of the list, for putting "the players and the community" above "the product being tested".
Then again, I'm just a to-the-point [censored] like that, I guess.
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Why do keep on insisting on this?
You have no concrete evidence that it is the testers themselves, rather than the process that is resulting in the smoother releases.
One thing does not prove the other.
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Pax_Arcana is right. Since they have started closed beta testing there have been far far fewer bugs in the game. As a college student of game software development you can not convince me that it is a coincidence.
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Absolute last response on this matter. Feel free to flame me and call me a 'whiner' as you wish afterwards. Funny isn't it though? Aside from my 'head in the sand' comment, I have not resulted to insults and namecalling, yet that is pretty much all that the opponents of my belief can reply with....
No, Pax_Arcana is not right.
Since the closed testing began, what has changed? It's not the testers, because they were here (for the most part) before the closed testing began. Chances are, they hopped on and beta'd the existing issues when they hit Test. The testers did not suddenly gain Ultimate Insight into the code of the game.
What did change? The process of beta testing.
You see, I have more faith in the Devs (this is a first for me saying this) to develop a process that does not require specific people, especially in light that this is a pay-to-play environment where anyone could leave at any time, as a lynchpin of their construct. I have faith that they developed a process that means basically anyone (within logical limits) could be substituted for anyone else and achieve the same results.
I'm willing to have my belief tested, if only for one Issue, and no hard feelings if I'm wrong. I even said I would recant if I was wrong. What's the worst that happens? A couple weeks extra on Test?
But these pro-same group people are not willing to have the theory tested because there is a chance they are wrong. And the whole House of Cards that surrounds the closed beta testers comes tumbling to the ground.
There is also the whole crediting all the results of closed beta to them, when it's the actual coders and development team that actually fixes things and do the real work.
Post deleted by Moderator01
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No. Closed beta has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with community, except that community is where they can get willing and hopefully educated and/or capable testers for free.
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Yes, it does.
There is only one other thing that has been as divisive to the community as to the issue of the closed beta participants, imo.
And that is PvP.
After every closed beta so far, there has been a completely insufferable smugness from the participants. They constantly drop the 'back in closed beta...' line in pretty much anything dealing with the Issue, as if they are the end-all, be-all of the concern/question. It comes down to 'us', the non-chosen, and 'them' the chosen.